Have Women Removed Men’s Need to Put A Ring on It?

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Don't worry, even Google is baffled by black men.

I recently wrote a post on my personal site asking a simple question, Do Black Men Not Value Marriage? Ideally, successful posts generate conversations that extend far beyond the limits of the comments section, Twitter, Facebook and/or wherever people chose to socialize on-line. A well written, thought provoking post will continue to haunt me generate debate for months or years after its original date of inception. I’m not sure the above post is the best example, unlike the one I wrote about how I don’t care for name brand purses and the women who love them…

*takes a moment of silence and solemnly shakes head*

But, staying on topic, an off-line friend (@Caesar20417: owner of a relationship-consulting firm) contacted me via text after reading my inquisition on black men’s prioritization of marriage and he did not care too much for my theoretical accusations. In fact, he outright disagreed that black men do not value marriage. Instead, in so many words, he suggested that I would have better served the public to propose that women have removed men’s incentive to marry. He raised some interesting points and I thought I would highlight some excerpts from our conversation.

Editor’s note: I received permission to quote @Caesar20417. I do not go around sharing conversations without consent. Bold emphases added for what I believe are key points from the discussion.

—————-

Caesar20417: Latest numbers on marriage statistics on African American men has AA 56% married. The real issue is that black women don’t value being married. Because if they did, they would [not] represent 70% of the women with children out of wedlock, a situation that statistically places them as the least likely to be married.

Men are waiting longer to get married because the benefits traditionally assigned to marriage are available on the open market. Therefore, it’s an adaptation rather than devaluation.

WisdomIsMisery: Not sure we disagree, as it would be more accurate to say, “prioritize.” I do believe black men don’t prioritize marriage, which is why, by and large, they wait longer to get married.

Caesar: Is it that the motivation for getting married i.e. sex is no longer behind the veil of matrimony? The motivation is no longer there because women no longer require marriage in order to have sex. … When the requirement to procreate was relaxed, the need for marriage became a financial merger and acquisition.

Women are the culprit to the devaluation of marriage. The 1931 invention of birth control, women suffrage/feminism in 1937. All of this was documented in the 1959 book of Alfred Kinsey the American woman and sex. Women thought they were becoming equal to men. … If women decrease the supply of free market sex and place sex behind the iron curtain of marriage, you would increase the number of men wanting to get married.

WIM: That’s a good point but I think it depends how you view marriage. I think most men see marriage as you describe but women are still holding on to the “Love” aspect. Namely, because financially they don’t have as much to lose and never really have. … Then, are men getting married for the right reason or are you saying historically [sex] was the justification?

Caesar: Women get married to improve their life. From as far back as the biblical text to the current state in which we live. A woman’s greatest value historically was her ability to conceive and provide a man an heir…more specifically a son. Love has never been a conduit of marriage. Marriage was about survival, alliance, etc. The 1964 civil rights bill removed the ownership of a husband over his wife’s property and assests. If you look at the state of marriage, from this time period to now…the greatest change in attitude has not come from men…it has come from women. Therefore, the assessing of a man’s priority on the matter of marriage seems incompatible with historical data.

Men haven’t changed. They still want the same primary things from women. Sex and heirs. And if getting those things no longer require a marriage. Then the point of marriage is obsolete. That’s like walking a mile to get water and bring it back to your home…there was a time that was necessary. But along came indoor plumbing and walking was not necessary…because the water was the main motivation, not the walking. So to me the question should be have women devalued marriage? Because men are still getting what they have always wanted…women are on the losing end. Do you hear men complaining about wanting to get married and cant? So the problem has to start with women making an analytic observation to determine why they as individuals aren’t married…

As you know, I have a relationship-consulting firm. I can tell you that women have no idea what men look for in a marriage when they are asked they don’t know. So, it’s interesting that a person would want a position that they don’t know the qualifications for. I challenge you to simply ask the question to all those wanting to be wives…do you know what a man looks for?

—————-

As stated in the beginning, this is a shortened version of the conversation but the main points are sound. Specific to the questions I was asked to address to the audience today:

1) Have women devalued marriage?

2) Other than tradition, with many of the intangibles traditionally associated with marriage now available without commitment in today’s society, why should men get married?

3) For those women who want to be married someday, do you know what a man looks for in a wife? If yes, please share your opinion. Inversely, for the men who plan on marrying, please explain what you are looking for in a wife. For additional context, if you are comfortable doing so, sharing your age will add to the discussion.

 

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From Our Partners

  • NaijaSweetz

    1) Yes, women have devalued marriage. So have men. I'll admit that I sat and chewed on this post for a minute before posting, but the fact remains that not everything falls on women. In the past, men wanted sex and heirs, but having heirs meant something (and still does, but mostly for those who value the constitution). They carry on the family wealth and name. Black women may account for a high percentage of unwed mothers, but a fairly high percentage of the baby fathers don't give a damn about heirs. They have nothing of value to pass on, and barely even know what their kids look like. A lot of these kids are unplanned, and so the fathers weren't exactly overjoyed by the prospects of getting the so-called benefits of marriage without walking down the aisle. It just so happens that, as a group, we're fairly irresponsible with birth control methods and long-term planning. Take the heir argument away, and you have sex…..which is being had freely by people of all races.

    2) I don't really know. I grew up valuing marriage without thinking of it as a financial or protective safety net, although it can certainly be both. I'm working hard to be self-sufficient, and I have proven to be as much. Yet, I would like to be able to give myself completely to a man in a way that I feel can only be done when you've taken that step of faith and devoted yourself wholly to this one person. And I would like him to feel the same way about me. I don't demand that all men value marriage as I do, but I will not invest much in a man who does not.

    3) I imagine that what men want in a marriage differs from one to the next. Some expect a mere continuation of the bf/gf relationship with the added responsibilities, and some expect their wife to do everything their mother did for their father. The best partnerships result when two people who are looking for the same things cross paths. The breadwinner and homemaker, the 50-50 crew, etc. As for me, I want to provide my husband with the love, care, and support that he needs, and to assist him in every way that I can. I don't intend to become his slave, but rather a cherished partner in a shared labour. And I want for him to expect and provide me with as much.

    As I said in your original post, the problem starts with our views on relationships. If we as a group can't get that part right, the inevitable result is apathy for such things as marriage that are further along the spectrum.

    • NaijaSweetz

      PS: I meant to add that I think one thing most men want is for their wives to represent them well. If they aspire to high positions within the corporate world for example, they want a wife who will blend right in at any function. In order for this to happen, the women have to represent themselves well to begin with. Unfortunately, a lot of people are more interested in their freedom to act however they please at any point in time.

      • Caesar20417

        *applause* this woman gets it!!!

      • Oh ok…

        great comment! @NaijaSweetz
        *taking notes*

        • NaijaSweetz

          lol Thanks!

          Well, damn. I just realized that it actually took me two hours to get through the comment section (not including the additional 70 or so comments that have since popped up). Research be damned, apparently. Oh, and I guess I missed the age part. I turned 24 last month.

      • Paul B.

        Amen!!!

      • AWanderlustress

        I think this is a mutual desire though, not just from a man's perspective. Although us females can be lax about the "requirements", a female who has taken the time to mold herself to be the woman she has envisioned herself to be would only want a man who can represent her well, based on her own self worth. This is outside the whole "women marry up" theory which I think is more of a validation of worth through marriage versus a declaration of worth through picking the right partner.

    • http://sarcasmforbreakfast.wordpress.com mizzcam

      I completely agree, so rather than repeat what you've said, I'll just o ahead and add my co-sign.
      My recent post What Happened?? The Men of Generation Y

    • KemaVA

      "The best partnerships result when two people who are looking for the same things cross paths. The breadwinner and homemaker, the 50-50 crew, etc"

      *Following Hugh's example* Quoted for truth!

      I agree with this comment in its entirety

    • Caesar20417

      Your understanding of relationship makes you an attractive partner for marriage. You understand the power of union and this post was not targeting women who possess your mindset. You will do well in a relationship if its your choice.

      • NaijaSweetz

        Thank you kindly. And for the applause as well. *curtsies*

    • http://www.WisdomIsMisery.com @WisdomIsMisery

      As usual Naija, I agree with you. I would only add (to your last paragraph) that I may disagree there. I believe relationships have increased in value (cohabitation for example) because marriage has decreased. It's like an inverse relationship. Because men can get everything they need from a relationship, whereas historically they could not, they have no reason to take the next step into marriage. In fact, they arguably have more to risk by getting married than they do by simply staying in a relationship, especially if the woman he is with allows it or expects/asks no more of him.
      My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

      • http://twitter.com/KatWebb84 @KatWebb84

        Given that SOME women still think marriage is a step above a relationship, the men dating THOSE women should realize the main risk in foregoing marriage indefinitely is losing those women. It's only because women have allowed "unmarried commitment" to last indefinitely that long-term exclusive dating is even being offered as a marriage alternative. With cohabitation and the like no longer being at all taboo, due to societal change and lowered standards, for some, never getting married is the way to go.

      • NaijaSweetz

        See, for every black man who is cohabiting/in a serious relationship, there are quite a few more who are relationship and commitment averse. Pre-marriage relationships have increased in value relative to marriage, so we do agree there, but we as a group are not valuing pre-marriage relationships as much as our peers, talkless of getting to the next phase.

        There are definitely more risks involved, but part of marriage is that whole step of faith thing I mentioned. Men may have more to lose, but back in the day there was also less risk because the intensely patriarchal society allowed men to get away with everything that women could take them to court for today. Women wanted to get married, but they actually lost out a lot by doing so – it's just that there weren't too many viable alternatives afforded to them. But I digress.

        The last thing you touched on is important: the partner's expectations. As I said, likeminded individuals have the best chance of success. And this is where women who expect more should make it known and not silently hope that he'll one day want the same things.

    • http://twitter.com/MOTRenaissance @MOTRenaissance

      I wish I can pull up the stat on the percentage of men who have kids vs. the percentage of women who have kids… YMMV

      But I heard you nevertheless

    • http://hazardoussentiments.tumblr.com Kriola

      co-sign all of this!

  • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

    I agree with two of the strongest (if not THE strongest) motivating factors for marriage are procreation and sex. Women have 'devalued' that in a sense. I think these are only two facets of why the out of wedlock rate is 70%, and not the only two noteworthy ones. Two other large reasons for it have to do with the fact that a significant portion of Black fathers are in prison and because there is no longer a push within the Black community for young Black men to marry/stay with women after they've gotten them pregnant. Visit them once a month and sorta kinda keep up with your child support.

    Going back to the two original points, it ties in with my belief that we don't necessarily want relationships with women for the same reasons that they want them with us.

    Off-Topic – WILLIES? Seriously? Seriously?

    • CHeeKZ

      Yeah… I know. Willies???
      I don't understand how that picture is relevant to the conversation. However some how I saw it and said "Damn Wis wrote a good post" and I was right.

      • WisdomIsMisery

        I actually screen-captured that picture a while back when I was researching another post. I just find it ironic that as far as Google is concerned, "what do black men like" has nothing to do with black women. You're right, it doesnt have much to do with today's post. It does, however, amuse/concern me. I plan to use a similar screen-capture in a future post.

        My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

  • Paul B

    Interesting discussion. I can say from witnessing several conversations and reading comments on various blogs and posts that so many women (NOT ALL) clearly have no idea what men want in women and what they look for in a wife when they want to get married. So many are foolishly trying to make men adopt a woman’s standard for what to look for in women and it simply won’t work. Don’t believe me? How many times have you seen this set of qualities thrown out first when assessing their own desiribility: college educated, independent,strong, and have their own, they don’t need anybody. Now there’s nothing wrong with those things, but those things aren’t necessarily what impress a man like that does a woman.

    • Hugh Jazz

      "Now there's nothing wrong with those things, but those things aren't necessarily what impress a man like that does a woman."

      Quoted for truth.

      • CHeeKZ

        Can we give some examples of what men actually impress men? Just to futher prove your point….

        Like Character. Humility. Humor. Fortitude. Ambition #nowale

        • KemaVA

          So it's not T&A? Who would have thunk it?

        • CHeeKZ

          We have already established I don't need marriage to get that anymore.

          See what happens when I try to be mature… you mock me. never again.

          j/k

        • Hugh Jazz

          Loyalty. Supportive. Wisdom. Willingness to please her man. Willingness and desire to mother a man's children. Desire to be the family's matriarch and a man's permanent partner in crime.

          And yes, Kema, T&A!

        • Beef Bacon

          THIS!

        • PinkTrigger

          Long-time lurker & late to the party, but…

          Honestly, I think most women have these qualities to offer. If men bring the same qualities to the table (being loyal, supportive, wise, willing to please his wife, willing/able to father her children, desire to be the family's patriarch, and desire to be a permanent partner), the chasm between women and men wouldn't be so large. I think the whole "independent woman" thing is a safety mechanism – if there isn't a man out there willing/able to support me, I'll learn to support myself. If there isn't a man out there willing/able to love and please me, I'll do everything I can to keep myself up and be pleased with myself. One thing that seems to come up often when I talk to male friends is they feel like women want to be respected and prove themselves the equals (or superiors) of men more than they want to be loved and taken care of… but from a woman's perspective, if you aren't being loved or taken care of, the least you can do is stand on your own two feet.

          It's all about partnership… women WANT to know that there's a man they can lean on and be a wife to, but there's gotta be a man there for them to lean on. I think that's why you see so many women willing to settle, play house, and fill the wife-like role for men that aren't willing to commit. It's in our NATURE to be loyal, supportive, nurturing, and so on… and we want to please the men we love just as much as men want to be pleased. I don't agree that women don't know the qualifications for the position – if anything, a lot of women are (a) overeager and willing to play the position, or (b) trying to protect themselves from playing wife to a man that isn't trying to make them one.

    • http://twitter.com/MOTRenaissance @MOTRenaissance

      How many times have you seen this set of qualities thrown out first when assessing their own desiribility: college educated, independent,strong, and have their own, they don't need anybody.

      Too many times I heard that… & I am disturb on how clueless alot of women are… Absolutely disturbed Paul

      • Amy Smart

        It’s rap music!..” I.N.D.E.P.E.N.D.E.N.T. Do you know what that means? She got her own house. She got her own car. Two jobs, work hard, she a bad broad.” And the women who follow it.

    • Boring ZzZzz

      Could it be that because so few black men possess these qualities, its a little emasculating?

      Having a college education is a preference for both Asian and white men. It catapults the family into a better socio-economic standing; thus, improving the opportunities of the family.
      javascript:id_AtD_plugin.check_writing(1)
      Truthfully, I don't care about the opinions of black men. My white husband likes me just the way I am…college educated, thin, sexy, and supportive. Admittedly, I am not humble. Oh well, can't have everything.

  • Ms.Lisa

    The problem is two fold. Women AND men have devalued marriage. But also black men prioritize marriage differently than other men of different races. Black men see it as they have to accomplish all their goals before they even consider marriage (which leads them to get married way later in life than their male counterparts). While other men feel that marriage is part of the equation of being "accomplished and successful".

    • @WisdomIsMisery

      I agree. Although I'm not positive as to why that condition exists. I'm open to opinions if you (or anyone) has some.
      My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

      • Paul B

        One reason is that there’s an expectation placed on men that wants them to “have it all together”, which is not limited to just have a plan already but to have it already fulfilled so that a woman can just slide in, kick back and enjoy the ride, though it won’t be worded that way. People just want everything ready-made to just step into, except the kids. That is seemingly the only thing people want to build together.

        • cbrantley15

          +1

        • WisdomIsMisery

          Thanks Paul B and cbrantley. That does help and may warrant a post of its own. It's interesting that within this thread alone black men and women seem to have different views on what defines a successful "power couple." The scarier part is that I think both views, while contrary, are accurate. Pertaining to black men and women, I believe both have issues with coming together to become a power couple as opposed to two people living together, married or what have you. In other words, to be frank, we seem to approach either other as adversaries instead of allies.

          My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

      • cbrantley15

        Wisdom, we're expected to bring more than we do to the table these days… My ex wife made it clear to me after we started having money issues that she didn't marry me to be struggling financially… Now that's just my ex. She wanted a certain lifestyle and when it was threatened, she jetted…

        It was obvious that my ex wanted me to be in the six figure range all the way, all the time… It has been my experience that even in my mother's house that I grew up in, my sisters were taught to seek a brother with long money. That way they would never have to suffer in life… Now I'm not saying that this is true in every black household in America, but it is true in many…

        Marriage to my biological sisters comes with a man being able to support the house 100%. If he can't meet that goal, he is out…

        I find myself tutoring young brothers on the importance of finishing their college education because there are a lot sisters who achieving that goal… I explained to one young man that if wanted to date my oldest daughter he has to at least show her he is willing to be her equal in some arena…I chose education to be that arena… My daughter made it clear to me that values a man who values family… I guess that comes from me and what she have seen growing up around me. I value family more than anything else in this world… Black people especially need the family in order to survive in this insane world we live in…

        Does this help?

    • Up4Dsn

      That's a very valid point. Black men do typically feel like they must be 'accomplished' before they can even consider marriage. Now I'm trying to figure out if that has always been the case or did this preference evolve with time. Also, is this the way they should view marriage or should they focus on something else entirely?

      You brought up a great thinking point. Thanks!
      My recent post Every Man Knows I Love You is the Best Way to Get Her to Drop the Drawers

    • justmewith

      I don't even want to get into this whole debate, I'm not a black man, but your comment is so interesting. It makes me think of all the white women i knew who got their MRS degrees in law school or shortly thereafter. This was before their men started making the real money, but they partnered up anyway. I think that young potentially successful white men might think (subconsciously, and culturally) of having a wife as an asset to their careers and lifestyles and overall success. They create a union and use it to reach goals together. And the white women think the same. It combines wealth and education and creates structure for the attainment of certain goals. Success is assumed possible and achievable and they do it together. The corporate environment smiles on young men with wives, I've seen it. Having an educated, presentable wife is helpful, and for the professional woman, the opposite is true as well. Maybe you are right and professional black men don't see it that way, or aren't exposed to it or don't look to their female peers as partners in their success. Maybe (and not to be too controversial here) they see a wife as an acquisition after success, like a nice car. This would be akin to the second (trophy) wife of a middle aged white man. It's just that the black man seems statistically less likely to have the starter wife to help him get to success and instead stays single, gets the sex and sometimes the children, without a true partner. Food for thought. I don't know why this seems to happen. It just does, though it doesn't have to. Look at the Obama's, partners in success.
      My recent post Friends Without Benefits — Married Men

      • Camille

        I appreciate your comment. I believe that traditionally Black men/women shared this line of thinking, at least a few generations back. The reasons for marriage you stated are what I heard from my older relatives. There has definitely been a breakdown somewhere down the line. Values need to be reclaimed and reassessed by men and women of all races in younger generations concerning marriage, especially in the Black community.

      • MissMina

        ALL OF THIS RIGHT HERE!!! Couldn't possibly agree more.

        I definitely see in Corporate America that there's an elite club. This club consists of the major CEO's and execs, and honestly if they can't say "You and your wife should join us for such and such event," you ain't in the club. You probably don't even know about half the little get togethers that are going down. Marriage (supposedly) shows stability and maturity. This is what they're looking for in their execs. Truth of the matter is that most networking occurs outside of the workplace…

        I also agree that black men seem to be fascinated with the idea of a trophy wife. Now there's nothing wrong with wanting a stunning woman at your side, but its also important to make sure she is able to hold her own in conversations among your colleagues and their wives. There has to be some substance to her. (Does anyone remember that episode of Single Ladies where Lisa Raye's character was at the dinner party with her man sounding crazy? Yea, all that. LOL)

    • Oh ok…
  • mims

    It's SO interesting to look at this in a sort of economic framework. And then to hear it being conveyed from a male perspective. Let me add my two cents.

    "A woman’s greatest value historically was her ability to conceive and provide a man an heir"

    Okay so we can assume that this was of value because it gave her a man who would provide her with more wealth, assets, and more security.

    You know when I read this though, I thought about the college student who sold her virginity online for $3.4 million or whatever. Like this guy is suggesting, woman in modern society have largely devalued their pussies by making it so freely available. But this SMART ASS BITCH decides to put her fucking virginity on the market and find out exactly see how much value virgin pussy was. And it was worth $3.4 million! What does that say? It says that WE HAVE ALL been devaluing our pussies. Marriage is a fucking rip off. In light of that, woman's greatest value–strictly thinking about it in economic terms–IS her ability to procreate as well as have sex, but marriage (as a contract or transaction if you will) is not the best BANG for her BUCK. If you catch my drift.

    **I'm not suggesting selling sex is a better alternative… But I think it's definitely a valid perspective in this conversation.

    • Hugh Jazz

      Interesting perspective.

      The logic of your economic argument is sound. The problem is pu$$y has a shelf life. That $3.4 million virgin pu$$y won't be worth anywhere close to that much once the woman turns 40. And adding to that, the ability to safely have children declines exponentially as a woman ages. A 1983 Toyota Camry may have sentimental value to the owner. No one else cares, except for broke people who can't afford anything better. They will opt for the 2012 Camry.

      In that light, 40-year old married pu$$y is far more valuable to the husband than 40-year old single pu$$y on the open market. 40-year old pu$$y has sentimental value to the owner, but everyone else will opt for a newer model.

      And I'm sure most women don't want to be reduced to just their pu$$y. But I get your point.

      • mims

        Duly noted. But still…. Natasha Dylan (virgin seller) got 3.4 million, and she'll still be in a way better position when she's 40–whether she decides to get married a few years down the line or not.

        • Camille

          Do you understand the meaning of the word prostitute, or does the $3.4 mil diminish the meaning for you? Values and morals are priceless.

        • mims

          I know perfectly well that the 3.4 mill deal is prostitution. What's your point?

    • theoneash20

      NOW YOU ARE THINKING @Mims

      Now you are thinking

  • mims

    Was my comment deleted? :(

  • edub

    This conversation is sexist and further subordinates women and is based off of universalist ideas of marriage, sex, and so many other things. I hope people can critically think about what is being said in the above post and comments. I am just going to skip this post, forget it every happen and hope the next thing you write has a little more thought to it like your other post. Or maybe I am just now thinking critically while reading your post? I do not know, but this is just horrible. Has no true foundation in anything but straight opinion and it is a very personal, deep, and controversial topic especially given recent times and discussion about Black Women (in particular) and marriage. This post and it’s comments are rooted in gender binaries.

    • ada

      I thought I was the only who saw how stupidly sexist this article was. will be back to comment when I am calm down so i dont rail irrational obscenties. raional ones, coming up

      “Women thought they were becoming equal to men.” is this real life?

    • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

      Well, unless that Black person is around an extremely progressive/liberal university, they are not likely to have experiences (on a personal level) any people who don't define themselves by gender binaries. And given the relationship between this community and the other, it is unlikely to be touched on or of interest for researching. I was just on Twitter the last night where a Black woman was denying the existence of bisexuals. So that's where we are in the discussion.

      That is part of the point though. Very many Black men either moderately or stringently believe in gender roles. Do you disagree that the Black community has universal ideas of marriage and sex? I believe the vast majority of us do. Even those on the border or outside of 'accepted sexuality' within the community adhere those beliefs. Well, yes idealistically idealistically things would be different.

      I disagree that it further subordinates women though considering the conversation is about the apathy on Black men's part to get married. I think I get what you're implying in that the undercurrent of the conversation is that Black women need to be subservient completely to be marriage material for us. I'll be a tad optimistic and not believe that is wholly true. I do believe, my generation at least, hasn't been socialized (in any sector) to value relationships with women on the most fundamental level.

      • Caesar20417

        " Black women need to be subservient completely to be marriage material for us"

        This is not true, nor is it the idea of the conversation that took forth. The conversation is centered around those who profess to want to be married but their profession and their subsequent actions don't align. No different than a person who says "I want to go to law school" but hasn't filled an application to undergrad, on top of that dont have the H.S. GPA to get into undergrad then complain how no law school will accept them. This person professed desire is incongruent to their effort and action. When it comes to positioning one self to be in a marriage or considered for marriage their are a set of qualifiers that many men and women look to have met prior to consideration. In my practice i encounter many women who desire to do their own thing but still expect to be in a partnership. and they dont understand why they are failing in the area of relationships. these two choices( your own thing vs partnership) are completely fine idependant of themselves but are diametrically opposed to the result of marriage

      • edub

        Stop generalizing. There are plenty of women who try to step out of the gender binary (it is not always on a councious level) and Black single mothers who also serve as a father figures do it every day and a lot of them are far away from liberal university. And you are definitely wrong about it not being a point of research, IDK, which world your living in, but black feminist theory which addresses this idea of gender binaries, is wide spread. Also, there has been significant research that discusses how the black family does challenges the Eurocentric idea of gender binaries, although it may not specifically use that terminology, it does this. Look it up.

        The Black community is so diverse in so many ways including ideology, beliefs and much more, that by you saying it is universal totally denotes that fact and essentially aligns with a euro-centric view of the world which negates and disrespects difference and is a view that we should be trying to get away from. This is another conversation, but I can get into it. Another thing to consider (and just think about it for a minute) is whose view of marriage are you considering here and where did it come from?

        Your last sentence is problematic in so many ways.

        • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

          My initial response was rude. Let me attempt to have a dialogue with you.

          These are things I did not say: black feminist theory isn't widely study (I personally have several books from Audre Lorde, bell hooks, and Patricia Hill Collins), the black community isn't diverse in beliefs (odd accusation considering my comments are regularly seen as 'to the left' or as a contrarian for contrarian sake), and I did not say anything was universal. As for the last sentence, I was not speaking about my personal views on marriage. I've never stated my views on marriage to any human being not named Malik actually.

          My last sentence is in no way problematic. At least in structure it is not. If you mean the reality of it (regardless of how large or small you think the epidemic is) is problematic, then we are in agreement! I don't see how someone could observe the world, talking to other men and women, and read Black Feminist Theory and not come to that conclusion. I'll be more than happy to talk about at length if you care to email me —> [email protected]

          You are correct about gender binaries. I was thinking in completely different terms than you. I was speaking in the sense of sexuality, which I alluded to, but you make a salient point about motherhood in the black community regardless.

        • http://hazardoussentiments.tumblr.com Kriola

          But I would also argue that black single mothers have no choice but to step out of the gender binary. I am not 100% sure that the back family, or rather the ideal black family, challenges the so called Eurocentric idea of gender binaries. I don't think that the genders are completely separate in their roles but those roles do exist and crossover only happens when necessary or previously agreed upon. If you look at African culture then you can clearly see that. In my culture (which I'll admit isn't "typically" African) the women are the care takers the men are the providers and there are certain responsibilities required of each role.

          I think what does challenge these binaries is the new wave American culture which teaches us that these gender roles are not necessary for a healthy family, however it is important to realize that you can have a healthy family with distinct gender roles.

          Even though you are saying that WIM and Malik should stop generalizing and you are questioning their view of marriage I think that your comments have a tone which negates the functionality of gender roles in some marriages and in turn dismisses the fact that the diversity of the Black community might include functional healthy marriages that have so called "eurocentric" ideals. Like what Nija said above its really dependent upon the fact that you find your match.
          My recent post virginhands:

          2:45 – my future children

        • edub

          I put none of my views on marriage at any time in my comments. I simply want to recognize that everyone may not think like me and that this post takes away that difference in thought. Considering the modern times, I think there is a big difference among ideas and so forth within the Black community.

          I am also just commenting on the systems of oppression I see present in this post. See them and recognizing them. Even though we can not always get away from these systems, we still need to recognize them at work in our societies and within our own community. This is my main argument.

    • http://www.WisdomIsMisery.com WisdomIsMisery

      @edub: I do not agree but I respect your opinion. I see a lot of accusations and no question, but if you have a specific question you'd like me or Ceasar to address, we'll be around. For clarification, we try to limit posts to 750 words. The above post is 900+. I cannot address all issues within the confines of one posts; I wish I could. That's what the comments are for. I believe this post is not gender bias because I'm asking a question as it pertains to women. Asking a question of women does not absolve men's responsibilty or vise versa. However, if we responded here (or abroad) to every question about men/women with "women/men do it too" it will not do much to further the discussion. (1/2)
      My recent post Guest Blog: 5 Ways To Identify A Crazy Girl’s Personal Ad

      • http://www.WisdomIsMisery.com WisdomIsMisery

        (2/2) That said, if you would like to read a post questioning men, you can read the post I wrote (linked below) or you can read fellow writer, SlimJackson's response to a Wall Street Journal article asking 'Where Have The Good Men Gone?' You can read that here: http://www.singleblackmale.org/2011/02/22/where-a

        My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

    • http://twitter.com/MOTRenaissance @MOTRenaissance

      Girls like @edub & @ada will continue to be frustrated with getting what she wants out of men… Sad

  • Sunn3yD

    Too many women are carrying loads that they were sent to lighten. It’s my belief that if women lock down their “flower baskets” we’ll produce more wives. Have women devalued marriage ? Yes , but men have too. Black women are strong and that’s something I love , but that gift also seems to be a curse. Some women are too independent , less willing, and less able to unite themselves with a man. Alot of women are also settling and too many men are making excuses for why their not living up to their full potential. Black couples ( & couples in general) need to discuss their expectations and needs with one another. I’m 26 and I do hope to be married at some point. I believe ( please don’t quote me) that a man wants someone he feels is on the same team as him. Black women and black men view success differently , but you don’t have to lower your standards just broaden them. Sidenote: I really enjoy this blog. I’ve been “snooping” for the past couple of months.

    • cbrantley15

      Sunny3yD – I agree with you on the independence part… All of my biological sisters except for one are single because they were raised not to need a black man… especially, a near broke azz man or a man who has had a series of circumstances (ie, trouble with the law or bad credit) that has made it hard for him to be a working class man. I always here my sisters complain that there are no good men out here, but I also see them degrading the ones that are available and who try very hard to be my sister's husbands… The reason I don't have a brother-in-law is because they make enough money to please my sisters…

    • Caesar20417

      "I believe ( please don't quote me) that a man wants someone he feels is on the same team as him"

      You would be correct. This is one of the things men want in a wife.
      The reason that the causation to the devaluation of marriage leans more heavily on a woman is because the orgin of value (marriage) were not equal. Men and women historically have never valued the institution of marriage in the same light from BCE to 2011AD. So when the "acts of marriage" were extended beyond the confines of the institution the one who stands to lose more and still willingly participate in an action that is detrimental to their professed desire is the one that is responsible to for their devaluation.

      You have a good sense of relationships. You will be successful if marriage is your choice

    • http://justlissen.wordpress.com justlissen

      "Black women are strong and that's something I love , but that gift also seems to be a curse. Some women are too independent , less willing, and less able to unite themselves with a man"

      I was just talking to my sister about this. She's 13 years older, married, two kids. She said that at first she gave her husband what he wanted in order to make it work,but now she wants to usurp him from his Chiefdom. So now they are having problems.
      Makes me think that women value marriage for the status, but devalue it in terms of the harmonious sacrifice it requires to maintain the commitment.
      My recent post Ready for love

      • Up4Dsn

        Wow! That's serious right there. It's almost like she got married while disguising her true intentions. I'm not saying that's what she did, but hopefully they are able to come to some sort of resolution.

        Power is another aspect that often gets ignored when it comes to marriage. Men and women should seriously discuss it before going down the isle. Whether it's the man or the woman who is going to be wearing the pants in the relationship, both partners should be aware of it from the start. If they aren't, there may be a rife in the relationship when one partner wakes up one morning and decides they now want to be the one in charge of the household. That's some dangerous ground to tread on…especially if the other person wasn't expecting to or doesn't plan to concede their power.
        My recent post Every Man Knows I Love You is the Best Way to Get Her to Drop the Drawers

        • http://justlissen.wordpress.com justlissen

          I feel like Gloria from BBWLA, but I support my sister so I'm not going to berate her for her choices.
          But I do think it brings to light the sacrifices we are willing to make to have the ideal picket-fence life, yet we fail in maintaining those illusions because they are contrary to our natural instincts.

          I also believe that every woman will come to a point when she learns that she has to allow a man to be a man, and sometimes that means taking a backseat. The benefit of not always being the driver is that you realize how important is to be the navigator.

        • Up4Dsn

          You're right. It does come down to the sacrifice both partners are willing to make. The sad thing is that there are a lot of women who almost refuse to ride in the backseat. They love to be behind the wheel…even if that means stirring things up in their relationships. I like how you put it. The navigator has a vital role and it would be great if more women realized that. Without a navigator how will the driver know where to go…you know?
          My recent post Every Man Knows I Love You is the Best Way to Get Her to Drop the Drawers

  • SMilez_920

    I Think society as a whole has devalued marriage. We want to get married for all the wrong reasons, women focusing on being brides and not wives and some black men not stepping up to the relationship plate as a whole. Words like wifey have made not being his wife ok it has become the greatest consultation prize for some women.

    While the sex thing plays in at some aspect I don’t think it’s the main reason. Only b/c I’m sure plenty of white women are having sex (college is wild) before marriage and still end up with a ring. As a community I think black people have accepted the baby mama/baby daddy culture so much that marriage seems like a distant memory. Also sometimes when give out too many benefits without making men live up to the title. We need to stop treating our boyfriends with husband privileges.

    • GirlSixx is ChloeRayne516

      “Words like wifey have made not being his wife ok it has become the greatest consultation prize for some women.”

      And there you Have It!!!

      Cosign 1000x

      *continues reading….*

    • Caesar20417

      "While the sex thing plays in at some aspect I don’t think it’s the main reason. Only b/c I’m sure plenty of white women are having sex (college is wild) before marriage and still end up with a ring"

      Having sex outside of marriage is not the biggest issue. If black women were just having sex and fun, this would not be a conversation. The conversation is presented because quite a few black women are not only having sex, but they are having children. I have conducted studies that actually prove that white women 16 – 24 become pregnant at the same rate as black women 16-24. When it comes to carrying to full term the number drops dramatically for white women and remains high for black women (almost 88% for black women 12% for white women) . Causacian women value having children in the confines of the institution that provides the greatest legal protection. Society as a whole still value marriage at the same rate over the last 100 years. the actuall numbers are still stable. Where the numbers have dwindled is amongst AA women since 1964 to date. the rise in out of wedlock children correlates with the decline in marriage.

      • Larry

        "I have conducted studies that actually prove that white women 16 – 24 become pregnant at the same rate as black women 16-24. When it comes to carrying to full term the number drops dramatically for white women and remains high for black women (almost 88% for black women 12% for white women) ."

        Mind. Blown.
        My recent post bruiser_ham: @goddess_I Is it back?? Does a bear shit in the woods? Is the Pope catholic? Do I like tweeting hot chicks? Hell yeah!

        • starita34

          http://bit.ly/rKcx8D

          Right there with ya!
          O_O

        • theoneash20

          Star!

        • starita34

          Just saw this, what up Adonis.

      • krystllyght

        Are you saying more white women have abortions? Interesting.

        • Caesar20417

          According to the numbers: Yes Its a hot button issue in washington

        • Oh ok…

          Luv it! So funny how TeaParty& Republicans (aka, hypocrites) hate what they think is moreso “urban”, but in actuality more prevalent in there own neighborhoods..i.e welefare assistence & abortion.

      • SayWhat

        I can see how those numbers are accurate without having to research myself…I wonder if the difference is that more white girls/women have abortions…I know the abortion rate is extremely HIGH in the black community but I personally know more black women who have their children whereas white women don't have the kids, but have had several abortions instead.

      • GirlSixx

        "Causacian women value having children in the confines of the institution that provides the greatest legal protection."

        Not only that but also they see having a child out of wedlock as bringing shame on the entire family as well as themselves.

        "I have conducted studies that actually prove that white women 16 – 24 become pregnant at the same rate as black women 16-24. When it comes to carrying to full term the number drops dramatically for white women"

        Umm Hmmm.

        Mannnnn….. listen if the bathroom stalls and walls of URCS and SSCS could talk!!! Susan will go missing 4 days or so out of school then come back with a doctor's note saying she can't participate in gym for a week, it took a minute to figure out why that was but eventually everyone figured it out.

      • http://www.wildcougarconfessions.com Wild Cougar

        see, I always suspected this. I went to an all white college. White women get pregnant out of wedlock as much as we do. They just get more abortions. And I also suspect this may be a reason behind the skyrocketing rates of infertility among white women. But you didnt hear that from me.

        • Oh ok…

          Ooooh! +1

    • http://justlissen.wordpress.com justlissen

      "Also sometimes when give out too many benefits without making men live up to the title. We need to stop treating our boyfriends with husband privileges."

      I think this is a huge problem, and I'm a repeat offender. Both my married older sisters lived with their husbands for years before getting married, and then "forced their hand" to get them to walk down the aisle (their words not mine).

      I also think marriage is scary, because it's forever. It seems so much easier to be in a long term relationship, because you always have an "out". But when you add words that imply permanency You start to expand your requirements and demands in hopes of maintaining the stability.
      My recent post Ready for love

  • SMilez_920

    Marriage is not just about a man taking care of a woman, or a women cooking/cleaning and sexing a man on demand. Too many people want the benefits of marriage (men) and don’t want to hold the responsibility of the title that comes with those benefits "husband". I think people have forgotten the whole spiritual aspect of marriage the me & you becoming we aspect.

  • shareefjackson

    This article really makes men out as being incredibly selfish. Just because things are avaiable without commitment doesn't mean that you should seek them outside of a relationship. It comes down to ethics. I'm really disturbed by the whole "sex and heirs" benefit of marriage. These are both tangible, material things that you can get outside of a marriage. Also, within a marriage things like sexual energy and tolerance of kids can have its highs and lows. If those are seen as the sole reason to get married, then I feel that people will look to bail when the going gets tough. Maybe that's why the divorce rate is so high in this country.
    My recent post What's In a Name?

    • @WisdomIsMisery

      Hmmm. So if someone offered you a $100,000 to do manual labor and someone offered you $100,000 to do nothing, which option would you choose? I feel the latter is the state relationships are in (yes, across all races, hence the title not having "black women" in it) and the former is the ideal. e.g. the "ethics" argument you present versuses the "tradition" argument we presented in the context of our conversation within the post.

      Folks should also keep in mind that this was merely a text conversation between two men. We didnt have this conversation with the idea it would become a blog post. Thus, there are no prefaces or ulterior motives here. I simply chose to share an opinionated conversation between two men that happen to be African American because I thought it would be of interest to this site's readers – a window not everyone is able to see into if you will. I think the context of the conversation has to be kept in mind.
      My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

      • TheTravelingType

        Easier isnt always better. Maybe dude doing the manual labor has the body of a greek god. While lazy @ss is sitting at a computer all day nodding off and getting fat and complaining all day cause he got nothing better to do. Sure the former is working more but he is also being engaged and challenged at his job. He is in the best shape of his life and feels he has earned his money. #ijs

        • WisdomIsMisery

          Are you saying that only though marriage can a man reach his full potential? If that's your case, I respect your opinion but I disagree.
          My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

        • TheTravelingType

          No I am not saying that at all. And feel free to correct me if I mis-interpretted ur response. But I took ur 100k example as u would take the easy road over the hard one. I am saying that experiences promote growth in a person. So always taking the easy route may be easy but you may actually have shot yourself in the foot by not going after that in which you actually had to work for cause "life is about the journey and not the destination" <–stole that quote from somewhere cant remember tho.

        • Caesar20417

          Sex is at the physiological level in accord with Maslow Hierarchy of needs. Therefore it is biological to take the path of least resistence to acquire the most basic of needs. In psychology the 'optimal arousal theory" demonstrate the different states of arousal needs for both men and women. most women avg around 3-5 where as most men avg around 7-9. this is the level of arousal need to create motivation. That being stated, if sex was placed with in the a confinement with a set of conditions, then the need would create the motivation. If there are no condtions, then there is no motivation. yet the need is still present. and will be fulfilled

        • WisdomIsMisery

          Ok, just making sure. You didnt misunderstand, as I can see how you intpreted that way, BUT that is not the way I meant it to be read. It's not about the easy road, it's about the fact that you can get equal benefits performing either job, so there is no reason to take the other job. You can, and I respect you for that, but there is no reason if you (the man) are already comfortable your current position. This is further complicated if one job is paying him (main girl) while he continues to look for a more fulfilling position (the woman that will eventually become his wife). This reinforces another comment I made that women – who want to be married – ensure they are dating men who also want to be married. Otherwise, you will be disappointed. And, in my opinion, it will be your own fault.
          My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

        • TheTravelingType

          Gotcha. I understand more how you meant that now.

      • http://twitter.com/KatWebb84 @KatWebb84

        I've had this conversation with my father. I asked, "Dad, how can a girl like me, who believes in marriage, find a man who agrees when there are so many women around giving it away."

        His answer blew me away. He said, "Kat, a man's character is not about what he can get away with. It's about who he IS."

        Once again, DAD #FTW. I hope there are some like-minded dudes in this generation. :)

        • DeKeLa

          Wise man.

          And that's pretty much the point a number of us are making. It's all about the type of men you are dealing with and what you bring to the table (mentally, spiritually, financially etc.)

          A lot of the posters are previous(current) man-whores, but can act right for the right person.

        • Caesar20417

          Hate to tell you this, but Men, Fathers and Brothers give their women, daughters and sisters advice that reflect the image they would have you believe they represent. I could show you how to prove it….the danger is …you would see your father as a liar…which is not in accord with his main responsability to you….protection is what his main responsability is to you…even if it means protecting the utopian bubble he has presented to you.

        • http://twitter.com/KatWebb84 @KatWebb84

          LOL. Just because you would choose to take the path of least resistance in something as important as your long-term relationship goals, does not mean that my father teaching what all men know they SHOULD be striving towards is his attempt to keep me in a Utopian bubble. I know dang well MOST men are going to take the $100,000 that doesn't require work, but I'm striving towards the men who know the value of both $100,000 AND work. I certainly value both.

        • Caesar20417

          But presented in this equation. Hard work does not equal money. Not in this world, not in this country. Plus if you use the formula for effiency the person who takes 100k would make the better mate long term. his value of time is greater. And the value of time is the greatest assest….I know you value both work and money…now add time, now you know the formula men use instinctively to make all decisions

        • http://twitter.com/KatWebb84 @KatWebb84

          Well hey, I guess that works for you. In my life, my hard work and time invested has paid off. It's unfortunate that your life experience has taught you to take the path of least resistance. That definitely isn't the right path, but it's clear right and wrong is moot where sex and money are concerned, according to you. I pride myself on that not being the case for ME. :)

        • Caesar20417

          You totally missed that one. I said the way the equation is presented you would take the path of least resistance. And if you had a glimpse into my world you would see how much responsibility I have. But ok (shrugs)

      • shareefjackson

        I feel you on the context. I've heard conversations like that from my frat brothers and the like. But I still think that just because an "easier" route is available doesn't mean that you take it, especially when that route deals with another person.
        My recent post What's In a Name?

    • MissMina

      Amen!!!!

    • http://twitter.com/MOTRenaissance @MOTRenaissance

      Selfish is not a bad word in my vocabulary, so have at it… Part of the reason I like to give of myself

      • shareefjackson

        It's not inherently bad – but it is if you're looking to get married.
        My recent post What's In a Name?

        • Camille

          I like your comments. Your morality and values stand out. Just curious, are you speaking from the experience of being a married man?

        • shareefjackson

          Yeah I'm married, but I've had this position before then.
          My recent post What's In a Name?

    • http://justlissen.wordpress.com justlissen

      "I'm really disturbed by the whole "sex and heirs" benefit of marriage."

      I'm unsettled by the heirs argument too, because there are so many women who can't have children. So does that disqualify them from being a potential wife in the eyes of a man?

      "Just because things are avaiable without commitment doesn't mean that you should seek them outside of a relationship."
      I'm a little confused by this comment and I'd like to ask, is it not a woman's prerogative to set the boundaries of the relationship?
      My recent post Ready for love

      • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

        Yes. Men disqualify women for marriage based on child bearing, be it for their biological or philosophical.

      • DeKeLa

        Yup,

        How many married men do not want to have kids with his wife? That's a big factor in choosing a spouse.

      • Caesar20417

        I'm unsettled by the heirs argument too, because there are so many women who can't have children. So does that disqualify them from being a potential wife in the eyes of a man?

        The statement was made looking at the historical view and value of marriage. And historically Yes, a woman who could not concieve was seen as being cursed by GOD, but because this revelation was usually discovered after the marriage, the barren women was treated by society as a plague….

      • GirlSixx

        "So does that disqualify them from being a potential wife in the eyes of a man?"

        Good Question although I already knew the answer which is basically what Malik and DekeLa said.

        I think this would make an interesting post Topic *Looking at you WIM* because like you (justlissen) said not all women are able to have children but if she has all those other qualities that that particular man is looking for in a wife, would he still disqualifier her?

        • GirlSixx

          because Today women have alternative ways to bring children into the world without conceiving or carrying them the traditional/natural way.

          *JustAThought*

        • chunk

          I shudder at that post being written.
          My recent post Embracing the Spinning, A Revelation

    • TheTravelingType

      Ethics and standards shareef. I am glad you said this. I was wondering if that has been completely lost.

    • chunk

      "Just because things are available without commitment doesn't mean that you should seek them outside of a relationship. It comes down to ethics."

      Ethics. Integrity. Character. Some women (myself included) have been saying this for a while- that _this_ is why a man should be a good man…

      I'm happy to see a man say it.

      Thank you, sir, sincerely.
      My recent post Journal Peek: Thank You

  • cbrantley15

    I’m sorry to say this, but women do not value marriage anymore. It has been my experience that black women are looking for two things in black men today. Money and Security. The security part I get, but let’s be real here mostblack women are encourage to go college. Most black women graduate from college. Black men on the other hand are not encouraged to go college thus this makes it almost impossible for him to be his wife’s equal in the household. Black women degrade black men in ways I have never seen before. I give it to black women who can hold their own. I love it seeing them strive in the work place, but I hate how they devalue us when we don’t make a certain amount of money. It’s all about the dollar these days…

    • Caesar20417

      Did you know that single AA women with at least a 4yr degree are financially worse off then every other group Blk male, Asian male, white male, latin male, white women, asian women, latin women w/ 4 year degree. True story. Which is why Im always so curious why professional AA women have relationship issues with "broke,uneducated,lack of ambition men". Why would you be checking for these fools? I, and most other people I know associate with birds of the same kind. Mate selection speaks volumes of and individuals self actualization

      • cbrantley15

        No I didn't know that Caesar… WOW, that's interesting…

    • MissMina

      Awww, this is is disheartening. We're not all like this. I guarantee it.

      • Caesar20417

        We know…but guarantee you know someone who is

    • http://justlissen.wordpress.com justlissen

      "Black women degrade black men in ways I have never seen before. "

      I tweeted about this a while back after watching JHuds video and the way she talked to her boyfriend. I don't think it's Black women specifically, though they are the most portrayed offenders in the media, but I think that as a whole women have stopped respecting men. If you at first seek their security and protection, then you cannot belittle them for those same actions that at once attracted you.
      My recent post Ready for love

      • cbrantley15

        Justlissen, thank you, thank you, thank you, THANK YOU!!!!

  • cbrantley15

    I'm sorry to say this, but most black women do not value marriage anymore. It has been my experience that black women are looking for two things in black men today. Money and Security. The security part I get, but let's be real here most black women are encourage to go college. Most black women graduate from college. Black men on the other hand are not encouraged to go college thus this makes it almost impossible for him to be his wife's equal in the household. Black women degrade black men in ways I have never seen before. (Ie, the way they provoke us into hitting them in public). Calling us bitches.

    I give it to black women who can hold their own. I love it seeing them strive in the work place, but I hate how they devalue us when we don't make a certain amount of money. It's all about the dollar these days…

    They now see us as weak in the bedroom if our pockets don't match up their purses… They see us as inferior to them if we can't provide a certain life style for them… Whatever happened to building an empire together…. I have seen many black families strive because the parents worked together to build that empire!!!!! As I said before, we are not our parents generation.

    It's sad… But I still love my sisters… Will never seek out a Becky because of the treatment that most black women dish out to the brothers…

    It's not that brothers don't value marriage we do. Some of may not openly admit it, but underneath it all, we really do want to be married and have a family. We want to be real men for our families. This is hard to accomplish when we are being degraded for not being able bring it all to the table…

    Trust this if given a chance to be a man in his house, he will be just THE MAN!

    It just makes me sick to think that most black women are not understanding of a brother's plight to make it in this country… Just shaking my head on this one…

    • Ms.Lisa

      "The way they PROVOKE us into hitting them in public"??? WTF! Are you serious?! If a woman is disrespecting you and your initial reaction is to hit her, instead of verbally checking her then you have wifebeater/abuse issues. Also, that is a bitch move b/c men AND women shouldn't hit one another.

      • cbrantley15

        Miss Lisa, Of all the things in my post, you can only pick out the "Provoke" part? I was merely making a few observation on how black women disrespect black men. No way in GOD's heaven was I condoning the hitting of women. I have two daughters, Why would condone that? Please re-read my post and take in the full content of my post. If I have offended you in any way, I apologize…

    • KemaVA

      They now see us as weak in the bedroom if our pockets don't match up their purses… They see us as inferior to them if we can't provide a certain life style for them…"

      Many times I think its the man that considers himself 'weak' because his pockets dont match up to his partner's purse. A lot of men place most of their value of self on their ablility to earn / provide. So when that is 'taken away' they just dont know how to respond.

      I for one do not require my mate to make more than me. I attribute that to growing up in a household where my mother made more than my father. However his making less did not stop him from being a dictator the head. Most guys / women dont know how a man can be the head if he isn't the breadwinner.

      • http://sarcasmforbreakfast.wordpress.com mizzcam

        "Most guys / women dont know how a man can be the head if he isn't the breadwinner."

        So true. Being able to provide for your family is not just about money. If that were the case, a man could just send home a check and do nothing else. The head of a household has to know how to be a leader. He/she has the ability to make sound decisions for the family and is trusted to do so.
        My recent post What Happened?? The Men of Generation Y

        • cbrantley15

          Love your point of view…

      • Caesar20417

        *This is an example of a woman with a great mindset"
        I have been both abased and abound. But who I am is not contingent on what I have. I'll park on the side of this post to say this to my brethern. Stop placing your value and worth on the nasdaq board watching its valuation go up and down based on the wind blowing. Women in my experience value a man with Faith, Direction and Drive. A woman will get behind a vision she can see herself. Write the vision and make it plain. and I guarantee a woman of any financial bracket will be attracted. Now back to the post

        • http://justlissen.wordpress.com justlissen

          "Women in my experience value a man with Faith, Direction and Drive. A woman will get behind a vision she can see herself. Write the vision and make it plain."

          This is so true. And even more, we want to help you get to the place you want to be. Look at Michelle Obama, she made more money than Barack because she was already established in her career before he joined her firm. But she believed in him and where he wanted to go, so she became his biggest supporter to help him get where he wanted to be.
          My recent post Ready for love

        • cynicaloptmst81

          "Women in my experience value a man with Faith, Direction and Drive. A woman will get behind a vision she can see herself. Write the vision and make it plain. and I guarantee a woman of any financial bracket will be attracted."

          TRUTH.COM!!!!

        • cbrantley15

          Can't argue the faith and direction… That plays enormous part in the partnership of men and women… Sorry I left that one out of my post…

        • Camille

          YES, a million times YES!!! I stated in a post to Mr. Spradley a few days ago that vision is so important anda lot of people are "going with flow" with no clear vision for their lives or the relationships they're in. To paraphrase a scripture "where there is no vision people perish". Relationships are more successful (the one's I have noticed) when the individuals participating share a vision.

      • cbrantley15

        Kema,
        That is true for most men, but I have had conversations with many brothers who have quoted their women calling them weak because they can't do better at finding a high paying job to suit their signficant others… I applaud you for loving your man for he is… I love your quote " dictator" I caught it… Nice move…

  • http://www.twitter.com/soul06 larnelw

    That man Caesar speaks the truth. “Why buy the cow when the milk is free?” That’s an old saying but still so very very true. Women have set the bar so low that those men that would step up no longer have too. And sorry to put so much blame on you ladies but the truth is the truth.

    You want to have sex but not be tied down? Plenty of women for that.

    You want to just have a kid but no wife? Plenty of women for that.

    Its nothing to go out and find a women to have sex with before even establishing ourselves as a couple. I really began to see how bad it was when I heard women I knew; educated, successful, advanced degree holding women; condoning and and commenting on their intentions to have a child soon even though they don’t have a husband or even serious relationship. Then comes the classic comments, “Marriage ain’t for everyone” and “Well 50% of marriages fail”. While there is truth in both statements, as a whole, y’all are aiming for the floor and then getting mad when you hit it.

    • Thriller

      You've just eliminated black men for the equation like we share no blame.

      We are the only group of men who think "You want to just have a kid but no wife? Plenty of women for that." In most cultures, that would guarantee a shotgun marriage.

      We don't value WHO we choose to procreate with as much as other cultures it seems. When I start to consider children, it will be in the confines of marriage. The fact we have children out of wedlock makes us less desirable to females looking for marriage too.

      I also think black men don't value companionship as high as other males. I'm sure other men don't just get married to start rearing children, white people especially have few children and have them later in life. And we all know white women are giving it out so there must be something else.

      We as black men need to take some responsibility. Wanting to have children out of wedlock is not a good look at all.

      • http://www.twitter.com/soul06 larnelw

        We can easily talk about other cultures but that’s not the point. Talking about “But they do this and those over there….they do that” doesn’t change the truth. Men have always been the kind to take what’s given easily and then move on to something else. How often have you ever heard of one of us turning down easy sex because we wanted a relationship instead? No the blame is not ENTIRELY on women but the truth is they hold the majority of it. Women who give up the booty and have children out of wedlock because they think it will keep him. Because they are scared to lose him. Because they figure the relationship isn’t gonna lead to marriage anyhow so “what the hell. I might as well get what I can”. Women have seemed to forget that pussy is power. Men move for pussy. Men fight for pussy. A man will kill for pussy. If women as a whole got together and said “here is the bar you have to reach to even be considered” then far more men would step up. That’s what I believe.

        But for now…its just to easy.

        • Caesar20417

          *benediction* Amen….great word …..can i get you a water pastor….

      • Caesar20417

        Men dont make the choice to have children. Can't take responsibility over something you cant control. You can thank Rowe v Wade. Women need to understand that having children outside the confines of a legal institution that provides protection is detrimental to their life. Single mothers have a more difficult experience financially. It impacts the careers they can take, where they can live, the promotions they can accept. Birth controll is 28 dollars a month without insurance, having a child is 23k a year on average…..lets weigh the real cost

        • Thriller

          Erm when you have sex with a woman without protection you've made your bed. It takes two to make a child.

          Like I said, we don't take responsibility of ours and our action. It makes me sick.

        • Caesar20417

          We are in agreement it take two to make a child. But once the child is formed even in a zygotic stage. You as the co laborer have no more jurisdiction over said creation especially if not married. My cousin and his fiance at the time got pregnant, he wanted to keep the baby she didnt, they were in the middle of wedding plans and he figured that the baby would be born 6 months later it wouldnt be a big deal. She wanted to finish her graduate degree. she had an abortion. what then???

        • Caesar20417

          The key is no children outside the legal and protective institution of marriage. If more AA women held this to be a part of their credo….we would see a entirely different world. As stated in previous comments I wrote. White women 16-24 get pregnant just as frequently as black women…difference is they have a credo that won't let them bring a baby into the world without a marriage

        • Oh ok…

          Indeed! Im not a Beyonce fan..but I respect how she played the game.
          Job (check!)
          Then…
          Husband (check!!)
          Then…
          Baby (check!!!!!)

          This is REALITY! Not just for the rich or white or ..whateva. BW need to realize they are worth so much more& shouldnt settle for less.

    • http://twitter.com/itztrizz617 Tristan

      I feel like black women are letting the inmates run the asylum, part of it being the lack of fathers in their lives (full circle). The symbolism of marriage began with the father of the bride, he determined if said suitor was worthy and wasnt nothin poppin off til he gave the blessing. Nowadays, i’ve met 4 fathers out of i’d say a dozen girlfriends. Not to say single mothers dont hold it down but i will say i gotten away with alot more with the one parent households.

  • peter parker

    a couple of things that jump out:

    Cesar's point about women's suffrage/feminism in 1937, i believe is inaccurate, in a way. there have been different 'waves' of feminism, and at this time, this wave, which is called the first wave, focused more on women actually getting the right to vote, the right to own property, aka half-way basic rights of a common citizen. i think cesar's point about feminism being a hindrance, might be with 2nd-wave and 3rd wave feminism in the 60s,70s,80s…

    "Men are waiting longer to get married because the benefits traditionally assigned to marriage are available on the open market."
    Considering that sex has ALWAYS been on the open market…i'm not sure this is accurate either. however, i believe that in the past, there would be shame attached to having sex outside of marriage, and that shame/consequences of having sex outside of work (illegitimate children; or rather, the kids being even thought of as illegitimate) have disappeared.

    "Men haven’t changed. They still want the same primary things from women. Sex and heirs. And if getting those things no longer require a marriage. Then the point of marriage is obsolete."

    Cesar's words come off raw, but i agree with the gist of it. that being said:

    what i'm looking for in a wife?

    a couple of weeks ago, i went to a happy hour/party spot out east. being the wall-flower i am, i scanned the scene, and saw a couple. the husband had to be around 75-80, the wife had to be in her 70s as well. and among all the 'youngsters' (i say youngsters as in majority of the crowd was 35-40ish), they were holding their own, Mr. was doing his 2-step.

    "that" is what i want. someone i'm attracted to, body/mind/spirit, who's equivalently attracted to me, who's traditional to a point, and wants to experience, to enjoy life. who would enjoy having children to raise from childbirth till college and beyond..together. who, at an older age, would enjoy having a 'date night', who would enjoy visiting friends and family, and just making life more memorable together.

    but what do i know? i'm just some 31 yo who don't know any better. lol.

    Have fun with this one WIM, heheheh…

    *leaves tissues, bridge-building books for everyone else reading the posts*
    My recent post kjnetic: I just ousted Danny P. as the mayor of African American Museum on @foursquare! <a href="http://t.co/AkdNhMX0” target=”_blank”>http://t.co/AkdNhMX0

    • KemaVA

      ""that" is what i want. someone i'm attracted to, body/mind/spirit, who's equivalently attracted to me, who's traditional to a point, and wants to experience, to enjoy life. who would enjoy having children to raise from childbirth till college and beyond..together. who, at an older age, would enjoy having a 'date night', who would enjoy visiting friends and family, and just making life more memorable together. "

      *waves* Hey Peter!

      So you dont just want "sex and heirs"? lol! Because your statement is what I thought everyone wanted out of marriage. But now I'm thinking maybe men want something else. My parents have been married for 30 years and I think to myself… Thats what I want. Basically someone to grow old with. When I'm older I want to have that person that I can remember the good ole' times with. To me marriage is a partnership.

      • http://twitter.com/kjnetic peter parker

        @KemaVA
        Actually I do want a junior…and headboard-rocking..so yes, sex and heirs was an implicit *given*

        *thumbs up*

        • KemaVA

          I know you want that … But for that to be the reason is where I have a problem.

    • Caesar20417

      Cesar's point about women's suffrage/feminism in 1937, i believe is inaccurate, in a way. there have been different 'waves' of feminism,

      The point of the 1930's femenist movement was more than womens right to vote. One of the biggest issues were women's right in marriage as well as rights to property with in the marriage. The shift created a shift in attitude for female sexualality that is then chronicled in the 1959 The american female and Sex. The authior alfred Kindsey begin to point out the dramatic change in attitude and behavior in american women (white women) . I raise this point to show the shift in attitude in women. I could go on and on about how white women abandoned the movement when they start to see white men choose asian women in record number during the time span called the Mcarthy era and when white women saw that their efforts were causing white men to choose different women they let it go. in 1970's after black women were not accepted equally into the civil rights movement they took on the 3rd wave of feminism, with the resullt matching the first.

      • http://twitter.com/kjnetic peter parker

        @Ceasar
        Didn’t know about kindsey, ill look him up; thanks for the info. Def. Not surprised about the extra info you provided.

  • http://twitter.com/vonbtrippin vontrippin

    The thought is bias both men and women have devalued marriage. Although ultimately its a woman’s desire to get married men want to settle down as well. Sex was and is still going to be practiced out of wedlock. I may be naive but I think it comes down tp the fact of who you want to see yourself creating a life and or family with for the rest of your days. Men crave love most times and women love to provide It especially black women.
    You will love a lot of people in your lifetime but how many of those do you never regret thinking of settling down with?I’m only 19 but maturing in thought. Now in a wife I need a women who can hold me up when I’m slumped by life, someone who values the thought of others, one who can express her love in ways other than physical, a best friend figure in terms of level of comfort, caring and motherly. (Still working on my list)

  • Hugh Jazz

    1) Have women devalued marriage?

    Yes. Men have to a lesser degree also.

    2) Other than tradition, with many of the intangibles traditionally associated with marriage now available without commitment in today’s society, why should men get married?

    There is no reason, outside of religious commitment. I've asked the question, "what is the reason for men to get married, excluding religious reasons" numerous times. Never got an answer that didn't involve shaming or coercion.

    3) Inversely, for the men who plan on marrying, please explain what you are looking for in a wife.

    A woman who wants to be not only a wife, but my wife.
    A woman who wants to be a mother.
    A woman who doesn't believe in divorce.
    A woman who is genuinely happy.
    A woman who is intelligent. Degree not necessary, just the intelligence.
    A woman who is godly and shares most of my values.
    A woman who understands we both need some alone time.

    Anything beyond that is gravy, but those are the requirements.

    • SMilez_920

      "There is no reason, outside of religious commitment. I've asked the question, "what is the reason for men to get married, excluding religious reasons" numerous times. Never got an answer that didn't involve shaming or coercion. "

      As a man do u think there is any good reason to get married/what are the reasons a man should get married? Or do you feel its just away for a women to mark her claim on you i.e good from Ms to Mrs (an ego thing).

      • Hugh Jazz

        Let me first preface this comment by stating I want to be married, and if my current girlfriend doesn't get out of pocket in the next year or so, I'll be engaged soon.

        As for your question, no there is no reason. There is nothing a marriage provides that many women won't freely give, excluding some legal benefits (joint tax filing, hospital visitation rights, etc). Many women have no problem having a man's kids, co-habitating, sharing finances, and giving her mind, body and soul without a ring.

        Women need to understand they hold all the power. We chase you, but many women aren't even making the chase a challenge. Too many women are making it easy for men to be the slackers we are. It's like a Ferrari dealer saying they'll give us the car for $50K, but the real price is $250K. Why would someone give the extra $200K when we can get it for less?

        • Larry

          " It's like a Ferrari dealer saying they'll give us the car for $50K, but the real price is $250K. Why would someone give the extra $200K when we can get it for less?"

          Great analogy. To add a thought to this, I often wonder if our (AAs) own innate mentality revolving around idea of "Yo, who got the hook up??"….or" "I don't ever pay retail for anything…I always try to get things on the low!" play into this some. Of course this is a broad generalization, but I find it interesting that some (not all) of us will get something for the cheap with no warranty, insurance, receipt, etc…and be content with lesser value. Correalate that metaphorically however you want with the whole marriage idea.

        • Hugh Jazz

          Never thought about it that way, but there may be some truth to that.

        • cbrantley15

          Damn, Larry great way to put it!!! Thanks…

        • Camille

          You get what you pay for. Quality (a quality woman) is priceless :)

        • cbrantley15

          Hugh, I am praying and rooting for you…

          Just let me know where you will be registered for wedding gifts. I want to bless your union with a gift that you and your future wife picked out…

        • Hugh Jazz

          Thanks, I'll let you know in twelve months!

        • cbrantley15

          Looking forward to it… GOD Bless and good luck…

    • @WisdomIsMisery

      LMAO Thank you for answering the questions Hugh.
      My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

    • cynicaloptmst81

      "A woman who doesn't believe in divorce."

      Those who don't believe in it usually don't believe in it till they feel they need to do it…as was the case with me. If neither party takes advantage of the obligation ("I can do whatever and you can't leave"), there's no need to consider divorce.

  • http://twitter.com/itztrizz617 Tristan

    1. I believe to an extent women have devalued marriage. Some simply want a wedding (see: Kardashian, Kim; most “Bridezillas”) others just let the man have the unofficial marriage (my father been engaged for years with no intention of marrying). Not to hold men completely unaccountable but we do what we’re allowed.

    2. Outside of giving her a wedding or just being old fashioned, i really dont know. Its even more benefitial to file taxes single. Its crazy how gays are fighting for something we dont even want #firstworldproblems.

    3. I’m 22 and to be honest i want to married moreorless for the family structure. I have more expectations as a mother to my children than a wife, i expect no more from a wife than i would any girlfriend (hold me down, hook up a lasagna, consistant smashing etc) I guess as i think about it i look at marriage as nothin more than a gift to a woman who commits to me and bears my seed.

    • KemaVA

      " I guess as i think about it i look at marriage as nothin more than a gift to a woman who commits to me and bears my seed."

      smh… I hope this is until you find 'the one'. lol!

    • GirlSixx

      "I have more expectations as a mother to my children than a wife, i expect no more from a wife than i would any girlfriend (hold me down, hook up a lasagna, consistant smashing etc)"

      And This is the problem!!!

      GF's out her acting and performing duties of a WIFE, whateva happened to the simplicity (you date a man, you go out /enjoy each other's company and you exchange gifts on occasions birthday/holidays) of just being someone's GF without now having to be able to whip up a 4 course meal, wash his clothes, becoming his ATM, give good neck, clean his shack, etc. in addition to the other things.

      • http://justlissen.wordpress.com justlissen

        I think coitus definitely muddles things up… You lose out on the simple pleasure of relying on someone else emotionally when you add relations.
        My recent post Ready for love

      • Caesar20417

        Exactly!
        And this was not a post pointing at all women…just women who act like wives without being married who wonder why they arent married….

      • cynicaloptmst81

        We've talked about this before so you know I fully agree with you, LOL!

    • http://www.wildcougarconfessions.com Wild Cougar

      I’m stuck on “a gift”. Please explain, it sounds like you are the prize that she wins by having kids.

  • Jason Gardner

    Thank you for writing this post. So many women are sooo concentrated on getting married but not being a wife. How many women he you heard say, “I have my wedding all planned out already.” but ask those same women if they planned out married life. The “Independent Woman” has done significant damage to the possibility of marriage.

    Yes women have devalued marriage. Men look for much less in a marriage. We want sex, a clean house, a woman who can be a good mother, and someone we love. Those are not necessarily in order though I do believe sex is at or near the top. Being educated is great, but we’re not looking for someone who’s a rocket scientist.

    I’m as 26 yr old black male attorney. So one thing sticks out particularly more than others. And that’s the ability to take our women with us to functions and have them be able to carry a conversation. Now this isn’t so much of a problem as I’d say it was before due to the larger amount of women with acorns and advanced degrees. But for me that’s make or break.

    With a lower percentage of men attaining college degrees and beyond black women are met with significant competition. In my law graduating class of 325 there were THREE black men, myself included. There were about 12-15 black women. So let’s look at the numbers, if we wanted to marry a black female attorney each of us had 5 women to choose from. Conversely if the black women wanted a black attorney they had to fight amongst themselves for one of us. Now this isn’t to say that women were fighting for men, or vice versa. But rather to show that men have more options. So now if he wants a wife, the educated black women is fighting against her female equals. But she’s also fighting against the women who may not be college educated but may be physically more attractive.

    So to end my rant, if women knew their value. If they knew that what’s between their legs is the most powerful thing in the world they would see more rings on their fingers. Stop giving it up and I can assure there will be more marriages

    p.s. I am in a relationship with a beautiful woman who I fully intend on marrying.

    • Caesar20417

      This is hammer and the nail having a beautiful union.

      • cbrantley15

        I agree Caesar…

    • Camille

      Hi Jason- I appreciate your comments and agree. Just curious, is your fiance' Black woman? Love is colorless, but for the sake of the stats you listed I know others are wondering as well :)

    • WisdomIsMisery

      Thanks for the comment, sir. It's interesting that if you told most (or at least some) women this: Men look for much less in a marriage. We want sex, a clean house, a woman who can be a good mother, and someone we love. Those are not necessarily in order though I do believe sex is at or near the top. Being educated is great, but we're not looking for someone who's a rocket scientist. They would be offended, which goes back to Caesar's point that those type of women are not even interested in knowing the varrying qualifications of the position they are looking to fill.

      I like Caesar's example from another thread. Paraphrasing, women (anyone really) is free to do whatever they want to do in life. There is nothing wrong with that but if in "doing you" you do not meet any man's qualification to be his wife, assuming you ever want to get married, we would argue you are implementing a poor strategy to accomplish what you claim to be a goal.

  • Lioness Rising

    1) Have women devalued marriage? Yes
    2) In a perfect world a man should get married because a woman will not support him and fulfill all the roles he would like her too without a binding contract. While sex may be obtainable outside of marriage, having the security that a woman will always have you back should not. I will be supportive of a bf but there is a limit. He should know that once we walk down the isle there is nothing I wouldn't do for him. The level of commitment and obligation should increase on both sides. Before marriage most things are optional.

    3) I am learning what a man wants in a wife. But from reading the comments I began to think about very successful men. If a man is getting an award or has to make a speech about his wife who he has been with for a number of years, he never says, "I love my wife so much she handles her business and is successful". Instead he usually talks about how she was there for him through thick and thin when he had nothing, supported him to the top, and raise their children well. So for a man who has goals I think he wants that type of woman.
    My recent post MissRepresentation

    • Caesar20417

      So for a man who has goals I think he wants that type of woman.

      *jumping around* It is It is it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    • ada

      wat about the womans goals? Is he supporting her as well.If he is then we have a winner. all I am saying is its a two way street.

  • http://twitter.com/2Loquacious @2Loquacious

    The more practical reasons to get married have for the most part been eradicated, but women hold one to one incentive for men to get married: childbearing. If women who want to marry insisted on keeping childbearing within marriage, then they would probably at some point get married. It is unbelievably unwise for men to assume that if they want to raise children that you can do it without commitment. Assuming you want to be an active parent, when you procreate with someone you are at the very least committing to an 18 year co-parenting relationship. When you do this, your parenting influence is decreased, you are tied to a woman you don't care about (since you won't/don't want to commit to her), you're paying into a household that is not your own, and you have no control over what other men come into contact with your children. That is a very difficult situation to put yourself into just to avoid marriage/commitment.

    I think as a society we haven't devalued marriage, but we've changed it. People these days require a lot from their marriage (and want a superhuman to spend their life with), and there are people who hope to derive the totality of their happiness from the institution. While I personally find marriage unnecessary (socially and emotionally, not legally), our society still values marriage (which is why I get the ultimate of all side-eyes when I tell people I don't wish to marry). I also think that the statistics regarding marriage in the black community are scare tactics; 90% of all people get married at some point in their lives. With all the same-sex couples that aren't allowed to marry and those of us who don't want to marry, I can't imagine that most of that 10% are black people who desire to be married but are ultimately undesirable for one reason or another.

    • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

      I'm wary of the '90% of people all get married at some point' statistic. In order for it be continually reliable it would mean that we forever live in either a world of static standards (we do not) or that we only move some incrementally that it will be relevant for decades to come (an argument can be made but the ever rising out of wedlock stat is a better argument to me). That stat assumes that all current and future generations will have the same perceptions of marriage. I do not agree. Particularly because 'what is marriage' itself has never been a constant no matter how much the Church sells you on the idea.

      • http://twitter.com/2Loquacious @2Loquacious

        I agree with most of what you said. I still believe that the vast majority of adults who are legally allowed to marry will do so at some point in their lives, but it is plausible that that number will decrease from the 90% statistic that is touted, especially as the ideas marriage and families in general evolves. I still think we unnecessarily scare black women into to thinking they will never get married. There are things you can do to increase your chances such as becoming a desirable partner on the outside and the inside, prioritizing relationships properly in accordance with the stage that they are in, and not having children out of wedlock. Black people are not wholly undesirable marriage partners, they just engage in behaviors that don't encourage marriage.

    • Caesar20417

      *Awesome!!!!!* you may not want to get married but you definitely have the mindset I know many men looking for wives want. You will be great at what ever you choose.

  • Pingback: Have Women Removed Men’s Need to Put A Ring on It | |

  • http://thewhittiest.wordpress.com TheWhittiest

    I recently had this conversation with a friend. I said, I didn't want to get married any time soon because I wasn't ready to be a wife. I'm not one of those chicks who's dreamed of having a wedding and what not…I was busy playing Monopoly trying to monopolize… but to get to the point of the matter..your questions:

    1) Have women devalued marriage?

    Yes, in the sense that we'd give it all up without requiring very much. I got in arguement with my aunt because I believed that being the down chick off rip was the way to go…. Let's just say I don't feel such ways now. Men have to earn it, and not just for the sake of doing it. Women devalued marriage when we devalue what we have to offer and who we are. We lost of the exclusivity of being who we are. The moment we gain that back, regardless of what has been done, is the moment we value marriage and the partnership we can have with someone else.

    2) Other than tradition, with many of the intangibles traditionally associated with marriage now available without commitment in today’s society, why should men get married?

    A couple days ago, a commentator said the most important decision we as Americans will make is who we marry. Men should marry because there's such strength in proper union. When you're with the right person, there can be such a love that does indeed make life easier to bear. Also, building a family and not simply spewing out offspring is something to be proud of. A man can definitely do well by himself, but being with the right partner only makes the best better.

    3) For those women who want to be married someday, do you know what a man looks for in a wife? If yes, please share your opinion. Inversely, for the men who plan on marrying, please explain what you are looking for in a wife. For additional context, if you are comfortable doing so, sharing your age will add additional context to the discussion.

    I'm 22. Men want: honor, peace, love, excitement, sincerity and respect. Everything you do, need to convey those emotions. Men want a woman worthy of being taken cared of–seriously. Every man wants to offer options to the woman he loves. Honestly, men don't care if you are perfect; they just want you to be loyal and true to them. It's important for men to feel that they can provide (and not just money-wise) for the woman the love; the moment they feel they can not is the moment that the relationship is definitely in trouble….

    …but I'm a young one…so who knows…
    My recent post Day 15- Weight Loss Challenge

    • Caesar20417

      "A man can definitely do well by himself, but being with the right partner only makes the best better. "

      Im a living witness to this. Im so much more wealthier being married then when I was single. There are also circles of affluence that you can not even breech without a marriage certificate. My marriage has open doors that would have remained closed if i was single. Their is a affluence especially in the financial and venture capital world that dont trust single people.

  • http://blackgirlmd.wordpress.com blackgirlmd

    i really don't like posts that try to play the blame game, however this post was eye-opening. the fact that black men view marriage as an avenue to heirs/sex is very eye-opening, I honestly didn't realize that. i knew that some people felt that way, but i didn't think the belief was so pervasive. I also think that's a very narrow-minded and elementary view of marriage (there many more benefits of marriage for men besides that). I also disagree with Ceasar because I think that the people who think that way ARE NOT marriage-minded and do not need to get married.

    My friends who are marriage-minded don't view marriage that way… but that's just my opinion.

    As far as black women/or women devaluing marriage… if that's what you want to call it…. It's not a new idea. I think its depends on how you look at it. I prefer to think that we changed our priorities, before marriage was the only way we could gain status in this country, but now that things have changed (for the better IMO since we have rights, the ability to own property, gain an education, etc), there are other things that we can do to achieve status. SO we priortize marriage less. I don't think that is bad decision on our part. Especially given the alternative, and what most black women have to choose from as far as black men are concerned. And when you compare our position to that of other black women in the diaspora, we are doing pretty well. Abysmal marriage rates or not.

    I honestly don't care if black men want to blame black women for poor marriage rates anymore. Everything has consequences. If you think the poor marriage rate is a consequence of women having access to birth control, voting rights, education, owning property, then I'll take it. Because you're right, before we could only access those thing by proxy via a husband. Now that its ours for the taking, I honestly think black women are better for it… its a give and take situation. That's probably an unpopular opinion, but whatever. I'll own it.

    • http://www.talkingloudandsayingsomething.wordpress.com q_crush

      But thats the BIGGEST issue, too man people are basing their value of marriage on STUFF & THINGS… so now because as a woman you can get your own you dont need marriage, thats not cool because you shouldnt be entering marriage for that purpose to begin with. Its not about what you have but what you can accomplish/build. Like the Fab/Ne-yo song said “I’m a movment all by myself but we’re a force when we’re together” There is a GREATER purpose in the union of you two and its necessary to find that out during the dating process and then act on it once you become one.

      • cynicaloptmst81

        I really love that song…I really do, lol…that line is everything, lol…

    • WisdomIsMisery

      @blackgirlmd : i really don't like posts that try to play the blame game

      I agree with everything you said except your opening sentence. lol It's funny, when I wrote the post about Do Black Men Not Value Marriage, not one woman said I was playing the "blame game" or being sexist or being gender bias or whatever else. Today, I post a similar question about black women and those are all accusations tossed forth. Anyway, like I said, I agree with everything you said except that opening sentence. Asking a question about women (or men) does not absolve men (or women) of responsibility, it simply means I'm asking a specific question. *shrugs* Still, it is very interesting that I can ask a question about men without impunity but not the same question of women.

      My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

      • http://blackgirlmd.wordpress.com blackgirlmd

        LOL I don't think I read your post on Black Men Devaluing Marriage. But you raise a good point… people get mad when they feel attacked. Its human lol. Also, I didn't mean to imply that you PERSONALLY were playing the blame game. I moreso took issue with some things that Ceasar said…. I just didn't think it was that black and white. I think that its a little more nuanced, and both sides hold responsibility in the matter.

        I think people really make the black marriage thing a huge deal, and I'm not sure that it really needs to be. I think that its a problem unique to the black community, but the black community is not unique in that it has problems. All communities have their problems…. problems that are different but better or worse than ours. We do have the bad habit of putting our ish on front street though.

        Also, I think it has something to do with the fact that women want to have it all. And there is a mindset that we deserve to have it all. For many women, we have the job, house, car, cute wardrobe, and marriage is the last puzzle piece to fall into place…. but its the one puzzle piece that we don't have in our box, and that is out of our control. Also, despite all of our victories and accomplishments, its the one thing that black men can kinda hold over our heads. And its upsetting, we want it, we feel we deserve it, just like everything else we've worked for. But that's not how life is, you don't get everything you want, or that you deserve, or even that you work for.

        I think if black women would accept that, rather than trying to internalize it, fix themselves, force a man to see things there way, we would see a lot less media attention around the issue. Less people talking about it.

        • theoneash20

          Also, I think it has something to do with the fact that women want to have it all. And there is a mindset that we deserve to have it all. For many women, we have the job, house, car, cute wardrobe, and marriage is the last puzzle piece to fall into place…. but its the one puzzle piece that we don't have in our box, and that is out of our control. Also, despite all of our victories and accomplishments, its the one thing that black men can kinda hold over our heads. And its upsetting, we want it, we feel we deserve it, just like everything else we've worked for. But that's not how life is, you don't get everything you want, or that you deserve, or even that you work for.

          Money Paragraph BGMD, most western women have that mindset spoonfed to them… & it is detrimental to their relations with men…

          Money

        • Adama

          Also, I think it has something to do with the fact that women want to have it all. And there is a mindset that we deserve to have it all. For many women, we have the job, house, car, cute wardrobe, and marriage is the last puzzle piece to fall into place…. but its the one puzzle piece that we don't have in our box, and that is out of our control. Also, despite all of our victories and accomplishments, its the one thing that black men can kinda hold over our heads. And its upsetting, we want it, we feel we deserve it, just like everything else we've worked for. But that's not how life is, you don't get everything you want, or that you deserve, or even that you work for.

          This has got to be one of the most sexist comments on here. If I understand you correctly, women DON'T deserve it all?? But what? Men do? What's wrong with a woman having the job, the house, the car, the cute wardrobe, AND marriage? If a woman wants to get married on top of her other accomplishments, then why not?

        • Adama

          cont.
          Sounds like you've given in to lowering your standards and goals simply because some black men are putting black women in a bind. And you're condoning it too. Wow! I personally don't plan on getting married, but if I were to, I could in addition to any other life plans I have.

    • Caesar20417

      " I also disagree with Ceasar because I think that the people who think that way ARE NOT marriage-minded and do not need to get married"

      I am marriage minded in fact Im married and I love it…go figure. The point of sex and heirs is the historical point of view that men have had and reason they considered marriage. When you remove those basic benefits outside the confines of the institution you create a devalue of marriage. It is my desire that every woman who "wants to t be married, find a partner who they can build and prosper with. Im often presented with women who's profession and action are incongruent

    • Hugh Jazz

      "Because you're right, before we could only access those thing by proxy via a husband. Now that its ours for the taking, I honestly think black women are better for it… its a give and take situation. That's probably an unpopular opinion, but whatever. I'll own it."

      As long as people "own it", I have no problem with their opinion.

      The issue is usually with the women who want to change society, then get mad when they experience the law of unintended consequences.

      Feminist: Women shouldn't be ashamed of having $ex! Let's empower ourselves!
      Man: Wait a minute: I can get the draws, leave after I nut AND I don't have to pretend like I care? Win-win!

      If you think it's worth it, that's great. The problem is with all the women who advocated change, then turn around in all these the TV shows, books, plays and magazine articles, acting surprised that men don't view marriage and chivalry the same way we used to.

      • Caesar20417

        "the law of unintended consequences"

        This is the mother load statement right here.

  • Adonis

    Slam Dunk!!!

    Wisdom, this conversation was WELL worth sharing… Even this conversation about marriage lasted longer than Kim K’s marriage… More Later… Gotta read the comment…

    • dippedingodiva

      lmfao “Even this conversation about marriage lasted longer than Kim K’s marriage” *dead*

      • http://twitter.com/kalistetics @kalistetics

        Ditto!

  • http://www.WisdomIsMisery.com WisdomIsMisery

    Seems only right I answer the questions myself:

    1) Have women devalued marriage?

    Yes. And so have men (feel better?). And so has society.

    2) Other than tradition, with many of the intangibles traditionally associated with marriage now available without commitment in today’s society, why should men get married?

    Other than tradition, I still struggle with this question. Similar to the example I used above, if someone offered me all the benefits of a job – income, stability, benefits, etc – and did not expect me to show up to perform the job, then why would I? What’s my motivation? I’m not sure.

    That said, I am not anti-marriage. I, in fact, plan to get married. Caesar and I were ready for a number of people (women) to misinterpret the post. Many leaving here thinking or assuming we are saying that men should not have sex outside of marriage if they want to get married. This is not inaccurate but it seems less improbable or reasonable to most people. I cannot speak for Caesar, so I will speak for self.

    I think the greater and more reasonable take-away today is that if women should date marriage-minded men, especially black men. If you are going to give a man all the intangibles outside of marriage historically confined to marriage then you better make damn sure that man has marriage as part of his goal in life. Otherwise, if he does not view marriage as a critical component or natural progression of a relationship, do not become shocked that he never “puts a ring on it.” Quite frankly, my dear, you only have yourself to blame.

    3) For the men who plan on marrying, please explain what you are looking for in a wife. For additional context, if you are comfortable doing so, sharing your age will add additional context to the discussion.

    I plan on marrying. I have a list but I plan on writing a blog about it, so you’ll have to wait. Lastly, today I turned 29.

    • KemaVA

      Happy Birthday!

      • cynicaloptmst81

        Happy Birthday, WIM! Live the last 12 months of your 20's like you're about to lose them…cause you are, LOL.

      • @WisdomIsMisery

        Thank ya kindly.

      • Hugh Jazz

        Happy Birthday fam.

        • Oh ok…

          Great plug for future blog post & HappyBday! :-)

    • Hugh Jazz

      I think the greater and more reasonable take-away today is that if women should date marriage-minded men, especially black men. If you are going to give a man all the intangibles outside of marriage historically confined to marriage then you better make damn sure that man has marriage as part of his goal in life. Otherwise, if he does not view marriage as a critical component or natural progression of a relationship, do not become shocked that he never "puts a ring on it." Quite frankly, my dear, you only have yourself to blame.

      This paragraph alone could have been the post.

      • Caesar20417

        *Benidiction* Amen

    • WisdomIsMisery

      I messed up my own comment and I'm having technical difficulties with admin access. Anyway a few corrections:

      1) "Many leaving here thinking or assuming we are saying that men should not have sex outside of marriage if they want to get married." should read "women should not have sex…"

      2) "I think the greater and more reasonable take-away today is that if women should date marriage-minded men, especially black men." should read, "women who want to get married should date marriage-minded men, especially if the men they predominately date are black men." ."

      Thank you for your time.

      My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

      • Camille

        Agreed by a woman who practices abstinance and has been proposed to twice! HAPPY B-DAY!!!:)

      • Breebree

        Happy B-day Wisdom….*smile*
        Hope you have a great B-day weekend.

    • Lioness Rising

      Happy Birthday!!!
      My recent post MissRepresentation

    • Larry

      Welcome to the "last year of your twenties" club, my dude! lol. Happy b-day, holmes.

    • SayWhat

      Happy Birthday!!!

    • starita34

      Happy birthday Wis! I just happened to have brought some red velvet cake with me to work today *cuts you a slice and puts a match in it*

    • http://twitter.com/kjnetic peter parker

      Happy birthday…
      *hands Wis a bottle of metamucil*

      • starita34

        This guy…

        • WisdomIsMisery

          Kids these days…No respect for their elders!

          Thanks to everyone for the b-day wishes!
          My recent post Promiscuous Girls and the Men Who Marry Them

        • cbrantley15

          Wisdom, please say this again and make in cap and bold it!!!!

        • http://twitter.com/kjnetic peter parker

          What? I gave from my own supply though… Purple drank flavor
          Lol

    • cbrantley15

      Happy Birthday ace…

    • sunn3yD

      Happy B-Day !!

    • NaijaSweetz

      Happy, happy, happy, HAPPY BIRTHDAY! (Don't mind my extra-ness) Hope you see many more so that I can be forever entertained….or at least until Twitter meets its fateful end.

      Man, this post though? I've been sitting here reading for the past hour+. Good stuff.

    • MsB616

      " If you are going to give a man all the intangibles outside of marriage historically confined to marriage then you better make damn sure that man has marriage as part of his goal in life."

      Good point. It's important to note that those intangibles can vary from relationship to relationship depending on the people involved. And what's intangible for one person may not be so for the other person in the relationship which is often where the disconnect lies in the dating phase.

      Happy Birthday!

  • http://www.boissuq.com/ Keli

    Interesting that this always go back to black women… this black woman does not have a child out of wedlock, has never shacked up, and is celibate for a good reason. Until black men realize their shit smells like… well shit, then and only then will we possibly rebuild the broken bond between black men and women.

    I think men devalued marriage, because the man should be the head… the Priest of the household…so why is it the woman's fault that the institution is not valued within our race? Women, not wanting to be lonely, felt the need to evolve with the times. I come from a two parent household… my parents are still married, because my MOTHER fought to hold her vows sacred.

    I think the problem has black women, is that we often are not as strong as we proclaim to be, often falling prey to the wrong men…not willing to admit (well at least not to others) that we can't do it all by ourselves.

    I will also like to add, that I find it interesting that men give us power, expect us to take the lead on many accounts, then have problems when we are not submissive… you gave your power away, you can't pick and choose when to be the "man."

    My recent post boissuq replay | Bitter Beer Face Chick

    • Caesar20417

      Until black men realize their shit smells like… well ***** then and only then will we possibly rebuild the broken bond between black men and women.

      Why do you need an entire population to get their act together. There are just as many men with their act together as their are women with their act together. Focus on the men with their act together, the rest she not even be a consideration. As far as priest of the home….that takes place in a marriage. Its not a qualification of a man, its a part of the annointing of a Husband.

      • http://www.boissuq.com/ Keli

        Did you not make a generalize about an entire population…women?

        Do you not believe that there are not many women who do value themselves and the institution of marriage?

        My recent post boissuq replay | wanted: a good woman…

        • Caesar20417

          No and No…please read and do not infere or draw conclusions based on popular online rhetoric. I believe in marriage, I believe most women want to be married, but i also see women who don't know what men look for in a partner/wife. I also see women who want to be wives and give their everything heart and soul to a man who has not commited himself to her and by her actions she is devaluing marriage by givng a man the benfits of marriage without marriage.

    • Q_Crush

      its not that some men dont recognize our role its just that SOME dont value how sacred a woman is, and part of that comes from that same woman not realizing it as well…

      as sad as it sounds SOME men only do what women allow… so if you cool with being a cut buddy, a fly by night friend then thats what I will give you, but if you demand a certain respect and I find you worth the time and effort I will give it to you, but if you arent ill still abide by your rules and be on to the next one.
      the goal for many men is the "cookie" and who can open the latch to the cookie jar… WOMEN so who truly is in control. As said in the business world "he who holds the gold makes the rules" what rules are you setting women
      My recent post Be strong… Be VERY strong…

      • http://www.boissuq.com/ Keli

        This is interesting, because I always say, "A man can only do what a woman allows…"

        So when/how do we get on the same page?

        I think we do far to much assuming with regards to what the other wants, what the other holds true, and we act based on these assumptions.

        We don't seem to communicate… we talk at each other and not to each other…telling the other what they are doing wrong, yet we first have to look at our position and hold ourselves accountable. Which for some reason it seems that men have a very hard time doing (based on my experience).

        w
        My recent post boissuq replay | wanted: a good woman…

        • Caesar20417

          It starts with being completely straight forward placing all expectations on the table. Men and women struggle with this alot. And we struggle because both genders have been taught to manage our expectations. Men have been told "keep peace" get as much as you can., and women have been taught, "dont throw the baby out with the dirty water" and "he is a good man" when he really isnt. If the next time you meet someone you are interested in, after about a couple of dates and before you engage in any type of sexual interaction. State your expectations and ask for his….if a man can not clearly articulate with specific details his desire in a mate…he has not put much thought into it and he is probably not compatible to your desires. Where a lot of women go south is they feel like they could work with him…Men dont need nor respond to being worked on. Be selfish enough and value your desires to kiss and say good bye.

        • NaijaSweetz

          I agree with this. And far too many women fall for the "let's just see where this goes" swindle. I do agree that things needn't be rushed, but you may have a problem on your hands if he doesn't consider himself to be on the market for a relationship while that's your main focus.

        • Caesar20417

          "I do agree that things needn't be rushed, "

          This statement is why men will always have an advantage in relationship. "Rushed" Men are never rushed. Men are decision makers that go into every situation knowing what we want and what we dont want. smh….youre still a great catch with a great mind set. But dont underestimate a man's ability to make decisions quickly. Its our greastest strength . Thats all I will say with out giving away to many of our defense secrets…
          CMB…am I my brothers keeper

        • NaijaSweetz

          Don't worry, I know that. What I meant by that some women are eager to get to the next point without having built a solid foundation. Eager to get that g/f title without even having a real sense of who the guy is, or eager to get married without having assessed how comparable their values are. I've said many a time on this very blog that I'm not the type to sit around and wait forever. I'm open-minded, but not inclined to have my time wasted.

      • Paul B.

        "but if you demand a certain respect and I find you worth the time and effort I will give it to you,"

        I think this has been overlooked, but is very key. Respect is very much key here, but how to get it is even more key. Some women can demand it all day every day from a man that only views them as a cut buddy, girl on the side or whatever, but if she sticks around in a capacity she truly claims she doesn't want to be in, he has no respect for her. A man will not marry a woman he can't respect.

        Ladies take note here: For those of you who stayed around after he told you he wasn't ready for a relationship or didn't want a relationship and you know deep down you wanted more, but you stuck around anyway and gave him whatever he wanted in hopes of showing that you were girlfriend/wife material so that when when he was ready to be in a relationship you would be his choice, but he dragged it out with you, never committed to you even though you were dealing with each other for years, only to marry the next chick he met after you (sometimes concurrently since you may have been just a cut buddy) and you're looking all pissed, this is why: He had no respect for you! You sat there on hold waiting for somebody who basically told you he didn't really want anything real with you but you slept with him and did whatever trying to win him over. What that is really called is TRICKING, point blank. Men are creatures of action and respect action over talk when it comes down to it. Some of you can talk a good game, but when we see that you don't hold true to your own word (consistency: surprisingly we expect and respect consistency from our women too) you diminish your value to us. If I'm wrong fellas, please correct me, but as men we hold the women we choose to commit to in a completely different standard than the women that men just play around with.

        If you're serious about being a girlfriend/future wife material, your decisions have to be made around that. If you say that's what you want, and he doesn't want a girlfriend/future wife, you have a choice to make. Make the wrong choice and you'll pretty much be limited to being a cut buddy, chick on the side as a rule only to be dumped for the chick he really wants and respects, or be alone temporarily, but get his respect, and be available for the man that really wants you to be his wife.

      • theoneash20

        You are not incorporating the fact that alot of women routinely chase men who are out of their league… Playing in the "Alpha Male" Casino

        • Paul B.

          That goes without saying, especially since some women tend to think there isn't a man out here that she can't get.

  • Humble_One

    1) Have women devalued marriage?
    I think men and women have devalued marriage. It didn't take much to devalue it because the traditional grounds marriage was based on was patriarchy and women being oppressed. So now men and women don't have to deal with each others BS the way the had to in the past. Women always say "I can do bad all by myself" or "Don't need it, pay a bill with it". And men seeing other mean getting cleaned out by divorce don't see the value in it either. I think men that are scared of losing their shirt in divorce don't have the right view of marriage in the 1st place.

    2) Other than tradition, with many of the intangibles traditionally associated with marriage now available without commitment in today’s society, why should men get married?

    I can't speak for other men but I would get married for partnership and companionship. Someone to go through life with. A teammate. I'm not looking for a wife to stroke my ego, feed me, and maintain my house.

    Historically women didn't have too many options. Life for a single woman was HARD. Although they are tv shows look at the lives of women on Boardwalk Empire and Mad Men. This was really the case in the 20th century. When we were more of an agricultural society roles were different. Class plays a role in this too. Especially with the creation on the middle class post WWII. The traditional reasons outside of love men and women got married don't exist and I'm glad they don't. We like to glorify "old school" relationships but a lot of them were miserable and women stayed in them because they had no other options. To put it blunt men devalue marriage because things aren't as easy as telling a woman "don't speak until spoken to, cook me some dinner, and sex me later". He makes the money, she doesn't so she needs to fall in line. Women don't devalue marriage as much as men but they still want the good parts of a "don't speak until spoken to, cook me some dinner, and sex me later" type of relationship. The main issue with the devalue of marriage is that men and women want the benefits of traditional marriage without accepting the advancements of women. No one wants to see marriage as a partnership or a team. Everyone wants to see marriage as being with a lifelong emotional servant that they just so happen to be in love with.

    • Hugh Jazz

      "He makes the money, she doesn't so she needs to fall in line."

      This is an attitude some men have (not that you said this) that I never understood. How is being a mother to my children and her contribution to the home and workplace of less value than the money I make? Even if she makes no money at all and is a homemaker, she's holding the family down while I'm working. We're supposed to be a team. People place far too much value on money.

      "The main issue with the devalue of marriage is that men and women want the benefits of traditional marriage without accepting the advancements of women."

      The game changed. Yet people are surprised when the way we play the game changes.

    • Kays

      And finally somebody gets it. More specifically…
      'It didn't take much to devalue it because the traditional grounds marriage was based on was patriarchy and women being oppressed."
      And
      "The traditional reasons outside of love men and women got married don't exist and I'm glad they don't."
      And
      "The main issue with the devalue of marriage is that men and women want the benefits of traditional marriage without accepting the advancements of women."

    • WisdomIsMisery

      @Humble_One: "The main issue with the devalue of marriage is that men and women want the benefits of traditional marriage without accepting the advancements of women. No one wants to see marriage as a partnership or a team.

      Agreed. As you, @DrDRB, and I discussed on Twitter. I think the main culprit is the fact that men AND women are selfish. We only want to change that which benefits us and ignore that which does not, even if it harms the other sex. eg men not caring to change equal work for equal pay and women not caring to change the expectation of chivalry – we only want to see changes to that which directly effects us and further, directly benefits us. I do believe this issue is exasperated in the black community even more though.
      My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

      • http://www.wildcougarconfessions.com Wild Cougar

        This.

  • sherylleigh

    "Men are waiting longer to get married because the benefits traditionally assigned to marriage are available on the open market. " This is SO true, and not just in relation to sex. There are a lot of relationships that are just one step below common law marriage (sex, cooking, cleaning parttime w/o complete cohabitation). The incentive for marriage just isn't what it used to be for men. But I do think that there are still men who value it, either based on their family background or religious views. So while they may wait longer than in years past, they still desire marriage.

    Also, my feminist side wants to take issue with a lot of points about our civil rights contributing to this sad state of relational affairs, but I think it's partially true. It's kind of like those who make the case that integration had negative effects on the black community. Progress does not allow us to pick and choose what values remain the same.
    My recent post Lightning Bugs and Love: It’s all in the Chase

    • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

      I'd rather a large scale study be done before we cling to the idea that Civil Rights is a main reason that the incentive has dwindled. There have been many changes to the Black community since then like Feminism/Womanism, crack epidemic, ever rising incarceration rates in general, homicide rates, and so and so forth. The evolution of our community would be an interesting thing to study/investigate.

      • sherylleigh

        I agree. I wouldn't say it's a main reason but it has to be a contributor. If women didn't feel so free to have sex on their own terms, outside of marriage, more men would feel pressure to marry in order to get some (at least on a regular basis).But yes, I'd definitely like to see more thorough research done on the topic. <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; FONT-SIZE: 10pt”> <DIV style=”FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 12pt”> <DIV style=”BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px”></DIV>

        • Caesar20417

          Its been done. First study was 1957 followed up by 1959. second study was done in 1985 followed by 2006

      • WisdomIsMisery

        @Malik @sherylleigh. Thanks for your comments. As shery says below, I agree it is a "contributor." Perhaps it is not the main factor but is it a factor, yes. In a perfect world, with boundless word limits and endless thoughts and server space availability we could write posts here that address every topic, every time. Unfortunately, that is not the case. I am merely analyzing one sliver of what I believe is a contributing problem to the issue. Malik, is it not he "main reason," probably not. Is it a reason, in my opinion, yes. It's like this, we can ignore the fact that it's sprinkling and focus on the fewer in between but more devestating thunderstorms BUT, if it sprinkles forever, it will flood just the same.
        My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

        • http://panamaenrique.wordpress.com Malik

          I like the sliver though. I just fiend for more information. I try not to be an echo chamber so whether or not I agree on certain topics is always a little fuzzy. Just going at it from different angles based on some information I do have.

  • http://twitter.com/MOTRenaissance @MOTRenaissance

    The key word in this discussion is INCENTIVE… There is no incentive for any man to be married in 2011, or 2012, especially if you are a man with resources & know how to influence many women to sleep with you & get them to do whatever you want…

    But keep in mind that only a cadre a men are in this category… So there are alot of men fighting for crumbs & going without… (Women =/= crumbs, but they do taste good)

    Other than that, thanks Caesar for the revelation that LOVE has never had anything to do with it… And being that I was so busy yesterday, I will leave my quick comment on Streetz post here…

    "Staying in Love is a fools dream because the human experience is built on cycles."

    SSTTE

  • Q_Crush

    "Where there is no vision, the people cast off restraint" Proverbs 29:18
    we have lost sight of our purpose in life and because of that we allow ourselves to consciously and sub-consciously partake of things that take from our cup of life.
    Society has skewed how we view dating, relationships, sex, marriage through the entertainment industry so it naturally has eroded our values in the home. We are so de-sensitized to things that we think its ok, when it's not. So in order to truly get back to the place of where we ALL value marriage we first must understand our own life purpose(vision) then reformulate the purpose of all things we do in this life knowing that it carries consequences.

    • bellatrice1

      I completely agree. Some people have no purpose or don't know what their purpose is, so they live aimlessly, and then they die, only to have accomplished nothing. And I don't mean accomplishment as far as obtaining "things," but leaving a legacy and having an impact on those around them. Very well said Q Crush.
      My recent post Don’t hate me because I can eat donuts

  • Q_Crush

    I can remember my pastor and other spiritually led ppl I respect say that marriage is where the fun is supposed to begin but if you have done everything in the dating/single phase of your life, then you have NOTHING to look forward to. Whether its you buying your first house, traveling overseas, or exploring each other sexually, if you have chosen to give those "gifts" away to people who dont mean anything to you then you no longer carry the excitement of life that comes with it if you shared those same experiences with your wife/husband

    • Breebree

      Good point Q Crush.

  • http://twitter.com/KatWebb84 @KatWebb84

    I don't think women are devaluing marriage at all. I think the women out there with multiple children by multiple fathers, none of whom married them or want anything to do with them or their children, STILL want marriage. And, as frightened/cautious/calculating as many men are about marriage, I don't think they've devalued it either.

    I think many woman have, however, devalued THEMSELVES. And though they long for a man to commit to them in the most official way, they are going about it by giving themselves away to anyone that passes them by. They are treating their bodies and energy like they're at Sam's Club, passing out samples hoping someone will buy. But a lot of times, people just go to Sam's to stock up on samples until they're full and then just go home without buying anything.

    So I'd suggest valuing YOURSELF a bit more, realizing that's the key to actually attaining what you value, and see if the men you'd like to go the long haul with take notice. If they don't, on to the next. And yes, I'm aware this might mean passing over guys you once thought could be "the one".

    • KemaVA

      "I don't think women are devaluing marriage at all…. I think many woman have, however, devalued THEMSELVES."

      Yep!

  • cynicaloptmst81

    Awesome discussion in the post and comments! Love it!

    1. I think women and men have devalued marriage. However, sorry ladies, but I think we carry a bit more of the blame because, like someone mentioned earlier, men do what we allow. We offer little to no consequences for their shenanigans.

    2. *shrugs* A somewhat guaranteed committment? With a bf/gf/boo, there's really no real obligation to stick around. But, with divorce so easy to come by, is there ever really an obligation? *shrugs*

    3. I'm 30. I believe a man asks to marry a woman that he grows to need…her support, her opinion, her rebukes, her friendship…her. I think our needs evolve as we age and, as we become settled (career, homelife, etc.), we have a better idea of what our needs are and are in a better place to assess who can meet them. Survival in a sense…cause neither males or females really want to be or live alone. If we do, hurt and pain, or the fear of it, caused us to feel that way.

    • Caesar20417

      believe a man asks to marry a woman that he grows to need…her support, her opinion, her rebukes, her friendship…her.

      Exactly!!!

    • cbrantley15

      Cyn,
      I'm with you on point number 3… But you already know how I feel about such matters…

      • cynicaloptmst81

        I know, Unc, but you also know I refuse to accept that, lol. I'll take it for now but eventually, I wanna read about you being all settled and happily married! :-)

        • cbrantley15

          Now why you want to go and spoil the friendship. I have done the marriage thing ( Married for 21 years). Have tried the dating thing (some 12 years excluding marriage)…

          It's time for me to do me… Don't get me wrong Cyn, I still believe in love and marriage, it's just not for me anymore…

          If GOD wants me to be in another relationship, he has to do the work this time around…

          Thanks for the support though… LOL

        • cynicaloptmst81

          "If GOD wants me to be in another relationship, he has to do the work this time around… "

          I can snuggle this line in with what I said, lol…

          I said I'd let you have this "not for me" stuff for now, lol…so we're straight, lol…

        • cbrantley15

          Coolio… We're straight!!!

  • TheTravelingType

    Marriage has been devalued but I think its mostly a sign of the times. A little background I'm 28 and grew up in the midwest now living in the South. Lived in a small female dominated family. I learned very early to handle my own. I do know and admit to being a very self sufficient person. I have questioned as of late the desire or need to get married and I just don't see the practicality in it with the way things are now.

    And why can't men see that me not asking you to open the jar for me is b/c I am used to having to do it myself. Its not about not needing you but maybe just a function of upbringing. And where is the man that steps up grabs the jar and say "baby you don't have to struggle with that no more. Im here." <—thats what im looking for.

    • TheTravelingType

      Men treat marriage to them like its the end all be all to actually attain them. I for the life of me cannot figure out why I should be excited to have your seed rip thru my uterus, feed you, look good in front of your friends, and lie down and let you hump on me whenever you want. And all this while you contribute what exactly??
      Now if someone can point out a man that is over gender roles and understands that we are equal partners working toward a common goal in which we can reach a lot quicker working as a team versus alone. A man that wants to create a legacy and understands generational weatlh. A man that sees parenting as a team effort. A man that understands that me being able to handle things is actually a plus and not a minus. Then and only then will I consider marriage again.

    • cynicaloptmst81

      "And where is the man that steps up grabs the jar and say "baby you don't have to struggle with that no more. Im here." <—thats what im looking for."

      That line right there is GOLDEN…GOLDEN!!!!!!!!!!!

      • KemaVA

        YES!!! *Swoons*

    • Caesar20417

      And why can't men see that me not asking you to open the jar for me is b/c I am used to having to do it myself. Its not about not needing you but maybe just a function of upbringing

      Have you really encountered a man who was offended you opened a jar? I would like to meet that breed of man. My mother raised my brother and I to not depend on a woman for anything…I am an excellent cook, have always employeed a house keeper, enjoy grocery shopping and even though Im married, i still wash my own clothes separate from my wife and financially im winning. but my upbringing didnt make me harden to the concept of partnership. I dont need my wife for anything…I want her for everything…thats a point I try to pass on to clients. Be wanted and desired not needed. needs change once they are met. desires are long lasting

      • TheTravelingType

        No, I was really being a little crass with that example. But my point is that there are things that I do in my day to day activities and I am not the sort of person that says oh I have a man now so he can do it. I continue my normal routine in or out of a relationship and I have dated men who have told me that I don't make them feel needed. That I do everything myself. And that makes me scrunch up my face cause I don't understand why it never dawned on them to just step in and say hey I know you used to doing all this yourself but I am happy to help with x,y, and z. I won't turn down help but I don't assume that oh I have a man so in order to make him feel needed let me ask him to change my oil and take out the trash. The trash got taken out before you were here and the oil changed too. Let me know if I explained that well.

        • Caesar20417

          You explained yourself very well. Interesting thing for me is that just about every man I know believe in equal partnering and the notion of gender roles is so our grand parents…Im sorry you have encountered dial -up men in the world of wifi

        • TheTravelingType

          "Dial up men in the world of wifi" You got me cracking up over here. It's cool tho. U live u learn.

        • Breebree

          One other thing I don't think has been mentioned is the fact that honestly I know personally women who have pressured men to get married when they clearly weren't ready for whatever reason.
          Women tend to date a man not knowing whether he even wants to get married or not. Then they fall for him and want to marry him, wait for the proposal, it never comes, and they are upset and give the man ultimatums that either he needs to marry her or kick rocks.
          Ladies need to recognize if your dating a man who doesn't want to get married or doesn't want to get married anytime soon and you put him on a timetable it's not entirely his fault for not meeting your expectations and giving you a ring the second you want it.
          Also men shouldn't be pressured to marry a woman just because she feels she is ready and wants to.
          I am seeing this on that Love & Hip Hop show on VH1 where Jim Jones girl is trying to pressure him to marry her and Fabolous girl too. That's never a good look. A man has to come to decide if he wants to wife a woman all in his own time.
          More importantly though some ladies need to get real with themselves and really figure out if they have what it takes to be the best wife for the man they're with. They need to ask themselves will they be able to give that man all he wants and needs to be happy, content, and satisfied.
          I know one man going through a divorce right now. He's from Africa and was married to a black american woman. He said this woman "tricked him" and pretended to be somebody she wasn't just to "get him." He says she told him shortly after they were married that she did the cooking and cleaning and was everything she knew he wanted just to get him. Now that they were married she was going to "be herself." After marrying her, he said she changed for the worse and became lazy, shiftless, selfish, mean, nasty, and just crazy as hell.
          It's safe to say this man will be hard pressed to ever trust another woman enough to get married again.

        • Breebree

          btw Caesar needs do not change. We will always need food, water, and shelter as basic necessities to survive.
          Yes you may be able to cook, hire a housekeeper, and work and make your own money, but I'm sure you got to a point where you got tired of being alone. You wanted someone to cook with, you wanted someone to eat with, you wanted companionship right?
          Obviously you could get that from any woman, but evidently there is something special about the woman you chose to marry that no other woman has. There is a reason why you wanted to keep her in your life, as opposed to any other women you dated.

        • Breebree

          If anything it's wants that change all the time. Today we may want one thing and the next day we want something else.
          I think folks confuse needs with wants….truth is most things we think are needs are actually just wants that we feel like we need but we really don't.

      • Hugh Jazz

        "I dont need my wife for anything…I want her for everything…thats a point I try to pass on to clients. Be wanted and desired not needed. needs change once they are met. desires are long lasting"

        This needs to be on a billboard or bumper sticker or something.

        • Camille

          YES!!!

      • Breebree

        Caesar I think everyone, men and women want to be needed in some way and we do need each other.
        People can't survive without love, and we can only get that from each other. The reality is nobody wants to die alone. We all want some kind of companionship and love and we want to be needed and we want somebody who is there for us when we need them.
        My 90 year old grandmom has a "boyfriend" she's known longer than I've been alive.
        I get your point, but I don't think anyone in relationships wants to feel disposable and replaceable and just wanted. You can get your wants and desires met by any woman. However, if there are things that you need that only your wife can give you then that's one of the things that makes you stay and even if you leave to come back.
        "Ever since the way that you looked at me, love is not a want, love is now a need" Maxwell – For Lovers Only.

        • Caesar20417

          You are mistaking the concept of needs and wants. I dont need anyone. I want someone by my side to witness life with me. Let me ask you a question. How often do you think about breathing? How often do you think about your kidney function? How often do you think about your resting heart beat? How often do you think about the toliet paper in your bathroom? How often do you think about whether the lights are working in your home? How often do you think about the hot water heater that heat the water for you to take a shower. I can go on for days. The things we need, we tend to take for granted and expect them to be fuctional and in place at our beheast. We dont think about these things until there not there or is not working. I would never want to feel like a need. you should not want to feel like a need. I dont know how old you are, but you seem like you are still young. And being young is perfectly fine, dont take that the wrong way. But the older you get and you see how life unfolds under the sun you will rather be wanted and cherished. Human beings tend to use or consume the things they need. We cherish our wants.

  • Up4Dsn

    Answers to Your Questions:

    1) No, I don't believe that women have devalued marriage. Personally, I believe there is such a void when it comes to marriage because seldom do two individual's have the same view of what marriage is. Like you stated, one person may view marriage in a sexual manner and another may view it as all about love. When it comes to marriage success rates, I think it all falls on the fact that two people thought they had the same view of marriage, but they really didn't. I'm sure other factor attribute to the failure of marriages, and an increase in divorce rates, but I believe it starts with the foundation. If two people are not building on the same foundation, there is likely going to be an issue. If the foundation isn't right, most of the other stuff really doesn't matter.

    2) I've always believed marriage should be a personally choice. With that being said, I understand that people get married for a variety of reasons. That's why I think if a man wants to get married, it's going to be for his own personal reasons. I don't believe in getting married because of society's view or because of my age or whatever other reasons people try to say people should get married. For me it's all about how I feel about marriage and how I feel about the woman in my life. If both of those things match up, then at the right time I have no problem with getting married. Marriage shouldn't be forced nor should it be a surrender. It should be something that both individuals want…and ideally for the same, or at least similar, reasons.

    3) I'm not going to run off a list, so I'll keep things simple and concise. I want to marry a woman that I can trust, can communicate with openly and who I am sure I love and loves me.
    My recent post Every Man Knows I Love You is the Best Way to Get Her to Drop the Drawers

  • http://victoryunlimitedshow.com Victory Unlimited Show

    Interesting post.

    The results of the informal surveys of Black Men that I’ve done seem to indicate that neither women nor men have necessarily devalued marriage. Instead, it appears that it’s the very meaning of marriage itself that’s become devalued. In this ever-changing cultural climate, I’ve found that Black people are now very much a product of the lessons we’ve been taught as children——-lessons that have encouraged us to adopt some rather “extreme” viewpoints.

    Our community has had the virtues of “Independence” preached too much and the virtues of “Interdependence” preached too little.

    Ideally, I believe that there’s far more value, power, and relationship success when both concepts are embraced with equal enthusiasm.

  • http://twitter.com/itztrizz617 Tristan

    I agree completely. *texts girl to remind her to pick up dry cleaning* you dont see men paying car notes, letting her move in, greasing her scalp unless he really is committing. (or a simp).

  • Victory Unlimited

    Interesting post.

    The results of the informal surveys of Black Men that I’ve done seem to indicate that neither women nor men have necessarily devalued marriage. Instead, it appears that it's the very meaning of marriage itself that's become devalued.

    In this ever-changing cultural climate, I’ve found that Black people are now very much a product of the lessons we’ve been taught as children——-lessons that have encouraged us to adopt some rather “extreme” viewpoints. Our community has had the virtues of “Independence” preached too much and the virtues of “Interdependence” preached too little.

    Ideally, I believe that there’s far more value, power, and relationship success when both concepts are embraced with equal enthusiasm.
    My recent post Mission #21 – Objective: The Top Twelve Reasons Why So Many Good Black Men Are Still Single!

  • krystllyght

    Maybe what was devalued were the sex and heirs. People don’t seem to care enough about sex that they don’t reserve it for that one special person anymore or they don’t care enough to keep their number low. When you share sex with one too many people, you begin, in yourself to devalue it as just another thing you do with somebody you like, like going to the movies. As far as heirs are concerned, I’ve come across way too many people who view children as liabilities or burdens and treat them as such. Almost all of my friends have kids but out of all of them only one purposefully had them.(1/2)

    • krystllyght

      (2/2) I always thought men get married so they could have a help meet. That help doesn’t always have to come monetarily but in other details in his life. I don’t think she has to be his servant but she should want to simplify his life and he should feel the same way towards her. To me, marriage is enrichment. I understand that there are loners in the world but, except in extreme circumstances, two has always seemed better than one to me, the one can help the other if he falls. I respect and admire those who can live independently but if they marry another person with their same ambition and will, look out world!

      • Q_Crush

        "I always thought men get married so they could have a help meet"

        thats coming from an understanding that they realize they NEED help… too many people today are Independent to death.
        Healthy marriages are ones where people can admit their shortcomings and know that their partner is there to help fix that issue. They arent their to belittle or degrade them.

        My recent post Be strong… Be VERY strong…

      • WisdomIsMisery

        @krystllyght: I don’t think she has to be his servant but she should want to simplify his life and he should feel the same way towards her.

        Overall, this is a great comment but above is one of the best lines I've read all day.
        My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

  • Hugh Jazz

    "I think men devalued marriage, because the man should be the head… the Priest of the household…so why is it the woman's fault that the institution is not valued within our race?"

    Because a single man isn't the head for every potential woman he dates. He's not the priest and the head until he gets married.

    • http://www.boissuq.com/ Keli

      But most men who are single and dating don't ready themselves for marriage in the sense of being the head of a woman's life, because if they did, they would act accordingly during the courtship process (which is a whole other discussion within itself.)

      But ultimately, who holds the power to choose… the man or the woman? I can say he's "the one", but he has to be the one to make me his wife. I have seen men get married because a woman gave an ultimatum… and I have yet to see one of these marriages last.

      I don't think that women have devalued marriage, I think women who don't understand their true worth will settle for anything.
      My recent post boissuq replay | wanted: a good woman…

      • Hugh Jazz

        "But most men who are single and dating don't ready themselves for marriage in the sense of being the head of a woman's life"

        This is true for men who aren't looking for marriage. It's too easy to get marriage benefits without the marriage.

        But ultimately, who holds the power to choose… the man or the woman?

        Choose marriage? Ultimately the man. But that's just balancing the scales. We take the chances of getting shot down when we first approach you, try to get a phone number, try to get a second date, exclusive dating, etc. Then when we get comfortable, the woman usually wants to progress to marriage first and the shoe is on the other foot.

        Overall, I agree with your whole comment.

      • theoneash20

        @Keli… Spin! Hamster Spin!

  • bellatrice1

    I think it all boils down to values and character, similar to what @KatWebb84 said her father told her. If a man is raised to value marriage, value women and hold them in high regard, value responsibility, and his body as a temple that should not give access to any willing and able woman that comes along, he will likely see marriage as a beautiful thing, and look forward to finding a wife rather than avoiding marriage altogether, or until he's old and hairy, and can't "perform" anymore.

    My recent post Don’t hate me because I can eat donuts

    • bellatrice1

      I don't think anyone (not even another man) can determine what every man is looking for in a wife. There's all these blogs telling women how to be to get a husband when you have women who are not even half of that getting wifed up. There is no formula. It's about chemistry and timing. If a man finds a woman that embodies all that he thinks a wife should, but he is still "sowing his oats," then he will not make her his wife.

      I think Black men and women have devalued the sanctity marriage based on what we see happening around us, and not being even enough examples of successful marriages that last. It doesn't help either when you have men who are married or engaged hitting on you all the time. It certainly doesn't make marriage seem appealing…hence I've become somewhat of a runaway bride.
      My recent post Don’t hate me because I can eat donuts

  • http://www.wildcougarconfessions.com Wild Cougar

    Selfish short sighted people devalue marriage. If marriage or relationships is about what you can get from the other person, you shoulder get married.

    Anytime I see a post about what men want from women, I Smh. Yes, there are a large group of men who are focused on what they can get from women with the least amount of effort. Then they live some and realize that this approach has not gotten them anything of substance. And they’ve gained bad Karma and headaches. Then they realize if they want things that are truly valuable, they need a partner. They are willing to make sacrifices for the good of the union and the legacy. Then they want marriage.

    The man I married wasnt looking for sex or heirs. He wanted an independent, educated career woman. Specifically. Because he did not want a dependant, he wanted a partner to more quickly reach shared goals. To him, it is better to do that with an independent, educated career woman. More resources. Plus companionship.

    I think there are plenty of black men out there with that mindset. If i ever decide I want to get married again, I’m sure I’ll manage to find one.

    • cbrantley15

      What can I say… You have experienced what most younger black women may never experience… There are a lot of brothers who really want to be married, they just keep meeting women with unreal expectations of them…

      • http://twitter.com/KatWebb84 @KatWebb84

        I'm curious what you consider "unreal expectations".

        • cbrantley15

          Kat,
          What you have below is what I have experience in my 30 something years of relationships… Things that I have at one time or another went through.

          In a nutshell here you go:

          1. They keep meeting women with unrealistic expectations for what they want in a man (women want men with money, lots of money). – My ex wife falls into this category…
          2. They keep meeting women who put them in the wrong category by writing them off too quickly as not being "their type".
          3. They're not wanted because they're not needed. Too many women have told them that they don't "need" a man.
          4. They keep meeting black women who don't respect them just because they "are" black men.
          5. They keep failing women's Girlfriend Approval Test. If the woman's friends don't like them, then that woman won't give them a chance either.
          6. They keep meeting women who are not interested in them, but only in how much money they make.
          7. They're nobody until somebody else loves them. Not enough women see them as a prize unless they see a lot of other women chasing after them first.
          8. They meet too many women who don't really know what they want.
          9. They meet too many women who believe that single, good black men are "too good to be true".
          10. They're the right man at the wrong time.
          11. They meet too many women who don't recognize a good man when they see one.
          12. They don't promote all the great things about themselves boldly or consistently enough to enough women.
          -Blacknews.com

          Let me know if I miss something…

        • Camille

          Wow, that's some list you have there! I nor any woman I associate with share's the point of view of your list.

        • cbrantley15

          Hey Camille,
          This is not a list set in stone for me per say, It's a general list of some of the things I have experienced in my thirty something years of relationships… The one that rings true for me is my ex wife. She wants a black man with money…

        • cbrantley15

          Camille, I forgot to preference that list as "The Twelve Reasons Why Good Black Men are Still Single." Check out this link: http://www.balleralert.com/forum/topics/the-top-t

  • Streetz

    This is a great and thought provoking article.

    I think both men and women are at fault. Men's apathy isnt attributed to womens actions, I think men have been this way forever! Its all a game and you gotta know how to play it #NoMotorhead

    Women will continue to do what they do. Men will too. I dont know. lol

    Good post theaux
    My recent post Streetztalk.net presents the new e-book: Fly On The Wall #FOTW

    • Breebree

      I agree Streetz…People need to understand marriage is more than just a ring on your finger and the title of "husband" /"wife".

  • InsomniaPoet

    1) I don’t believe women have devalued marriage I just think we have changed how we go about it. I always pictured a husband and family in my future but never made it priority #1. I just always thought if I am a good girl & go get a good education, then the good man will come.(kinda like field of dreams, if you build it they will come)
    2) I think this question is counterproductive to the discussion. Since the dawn of time men have been able to receive the benefits of marriage without marriage. I think the better question is; have men devalued marriage?
    3) As for what I think men look for in a wife I really am not sure. I know what I am looking for in a husband but I think I just have ideas and stereotypes in mind for what a man wants from his wife. This to me is the most important question of the day though. I think the reason we are even having this discussion is because no one is really clear on what the other wants.
    Ultimately, I do not think the issue lies with just one gender or the other & I don’t know what the answer is, but I def think candid communication is a step in the right direction. Great blog today!

    • theoneash20

      I think this question is counterproductive to the discussion. Since the dawn of time men have been able to receive the benefits of marriage without marriage. I think the better question is; have men devalued marriage?

      Hey sweetheart, pump the breaks…

      40% of men & 80% of women in the pre-modern era passed on their genes

      Even now, only a certain percentage of men have access to marital privileges… Alot of men go without

  • Q_Crush

    If you fully grasp this next statement then people perhaps would treat marriage with more respect.

    "you dont get married to be happy you get married to become HOLY"

    your wife/husband is there to help strengthen your relationship in God. There will be things that you face (because the Kingdom is entered through tribulations) in life and you NEED someone to keep things in perspective, dry your tears but also tell you to stiffen your upper lip and keep pressing.

    People look to marriage because of emotional/tangible fulfillment and disregard the spiritual. what happens when she doesnt make you happy, when you dont have any money??? If the union was built on a solid foundation the you can survive anything but if not you have a house of cards… but in order to have a spiritual union you must FIRST reach it on your own as a single, and not enough people have/want to and they wonder why things dont go right
    My recent post Be strong… Be VERY strong…

    • Caesar20417

      You know that there is no biblical foundation to support this outlandish claim. Majority of the prophets were single. Jesus preached on being Celibate and Paul thought marriage was for the weak willed. So to become Holy??? that would contradict the scripture 1 peter 1:16….and careful lightly using the bible has a pulpit for marriage. you may not be ready for what is actually in the text concerning marriage

      • Q_Crush

        how does it contradict it when it confirms it… our life comandment is to live life Christ-like, which includes a life of Holiness, so that would mean carry out actions and deeds that will PUSH you towards that lifestyle.

        Dont get it misunderstood, that phrase is not said to insinuate that being married automatically MAKES you holy, but there will be things that occur during your marriage where you have no other choice but to lean on the word of God and use it as a beacon to guide the union..

        and to say there is no foundation. "the Kingdom of God is entered through tribulation" meaning stuff will happen to you but its up to you to decide how you handle it; will you lean unto your own understanding for answers or TRUST GOD, and once again in trusting God you take on more characteristics of Him, thus becoming more Christ-like= Holy

  • Larry

    I believe this whole specific narrative revolving around how men want, primarily, s*x and heirs is being somewhat overstated, IMO. I am under the impression that s*x and heirs is pretty much implicit in the things that men (and women) desire within the confines of a marriage, therefore it usually goes without saying.

    Men like chex, that much is obvious….and when you ask men (and women) if they would one day like to have children the majority of them will tell you yes. At least that's been my experience.

  • TheTravelingType

    Question 3. I used to think I knew. But as I have gotten older "I just dont know!" (in my exasperated voice). LOL I have heard the Feed, Fcuk, Sleep but that just never settled well with me. Its gotta be more to it. I wish more men would comment about what they are looking for tho. Enlighten me. LOL

    • aesar20417

      I have heard the Feed, Fcuk, Sleep but that just never settled well with me. Its gotta be more to it.

      It is…whats interesting is that men cant articulate it, until they come in contact with that woman that open that space in their soul. Its where the logical and analytical mind give way to the emotive. I could tell you what men unconsciously desire….and I can guarantee if you desire marriage. you can email me. mdavis,mdve@gmail[email protected] ….its up to you

      • KemaVA

        "It is…whats interesting is that men cant articulate it, until they come in contact with that woman that open that space in their soul. Its where the logical and analytical mind give way to the emotive."

        See that why I have a problem with the "sex & heirs" reason. This seems all well and good when thinking about younger men without children but there has to be more to it since men marry even after they have had their kids.

  • chunk

    1. Yes, _people_ have devalued marriage.

    2. He should get married because he _wants_ to.

    3. I'm 31. I was married for 11 years. I think by the time a man gets to the point he actually _wants_ to get married, he wants somebody who can do:

    A) Basic stuff that amounts to taking care of him and the children he definitely wants her to have. ie: "help me keep our bellies full, our home decent, our children safe and sane, and my balls from turning blue".

    and

    B) Respect me- be faithful, encouraging, and _nice_.

    I am mostly ambivalent these days about ever getting married again (but not about falling in love) Therefore, I think if I do, it will probably be because I met a great man who wants the mother of his children to also officially be his wife. And since I kinda don't care one way or the other, why not give him that? *shrug*
    My recent post Embracing the Spinning, A Revelation

  • Caesar20417

    if you desire marriage it may serve you well to know,,,,sorry for the way it came out…sounds weird when i read it back

  • http://fromraewithlove.com/ Rae

    1) Have women devalued marriage?
    As much as men have. Why is it that women are to blame for this? O_o

    It takes two to tango right? I love my brothers, but for as much trying to get the "cookies" and the children born out of wedlock and the shacking, cheating, etc we are all to blame. Many people like things quick fast and in a hurry. I can't say it's anyone's fault. We do what we want as women, as much as men do what they want. I will say many of the issues we have have to do with the devaluation of FAMILY and the importance of sticking things out. We have reached a point in time where if it gets too hard everyone just quits, packs up and goes their separate ways. Not to mention, how many marriages are we looking at where people took time to decide if they are cut out for marriage and if they even have the right partner?

    People want all of the benefits of a relationship without doing any of the work. That's not right. That's not orderly.

    2) Other than tradition, with many of the intangibles traditionally associated with marriage now available without commitment in today’s society, why should men get married?
    I have discussed this before. What about companionship? The ability to know you have a wife – a helpmeet and not just someone who lives with you and is helping with the bills. But really a person who will be with you for life. For some, they don't need a ceremony or a process. For some reason, this question rubs me the wrong way because it sounds like it's my job to convince a man he is supposed to get married. Wrong. Men who want to be married are very clear about it. Men who don't want to be married – are very clear about it as well.

    3) For those women who want to be married someday, do you know what a man looks for in a wife? If yes, please share your opinion.

    Yes, I would like to be married someday. I am 36. However, before this point I'm not even sure I would have made a good wife before now. I had all of the ingredients but needed to really learn how to put them together.

    What do I think men want from a wife?

    Basics…
    Kind
    patient
    of good character (subjective)
    long suffering
    should have some common interests with him
    encourages him to be a better man without having to tell him
    is his friend
    will look after him & care for him in times of need
    doesn't box him in
    doesn't speak negatively or harshly to him or of him
    will love his children if he has them
    will not leave at the first sign of hardship
    will be fair to him
    satisfy him sexually
    will honor their commitment and be honest with him
    (and this isn't in any order…)

    Bonuses: she can cook like Paula Deen, the house is clean, she's gorgeous and the sex is off the chain

    My recent post Where Tragedy, Pain, Service and Love Intersect

    • Hugh Jazz

      Rae: "As much as men have. Why is it that women are to blame for this? O_o"

      Because men are the ones that propose. The point that is being made is women are making it so it there is no reason to propose. Why would a man propose to a woman that is giving him EVERYTHING he wants in a marriage? Especially considering if the marriage fails, a man can lose half his life's work and his children? It is literally all risk and no reward. If women would stop giving wife benefits to boyfriends, that solves most of the problem because men have no alternative than to abide by women's requirements.

      Don't get me wrong, as men, we suck too. But women hold the power, and too many women are freely giving that power away.

      • http://fromraewithlove.com/ Rae

        Ok. I get it. I just wonder is it really ALL our fault? Really? Half of us don't even understand the idea of courtship & what that means. The other thing is why WOULDN'T a man propose if he's getting everything? I would think, and this is just me, he would propose and marry her to keep her. A man also marries because he can't see his life without her. IMO.

        Honestly, at this stage of the game, women have as much money as men do, etc. So it's not about the money anymore. Or it shouldn't be. We lose in divorce too. I have spent many evenings with girlfriends who are on the brink of disaster because they are in the middle of a divorce. It's hard on everyone all the way around.

        I just think we don't respect the institution any more. Everyone is asking what do I get out of it when it's really supposed to be about what can I offer and bring to the table? How can I support this person? If you don't want to do that, then fine.

        One other thing, we as men and women, need to stop all of the playing house and ruining the good potential spouses for others. What's the point in getting everything you want from her and then leaving her for someone who didn't wash your clothes for you and won't cook unless you marry her? I know men like a challenge and all, but damn. Just saying.

        That's just as bad as if a woman allows a man to pay off all of her bills and then leaves him for another man. Is that right? I just can't condone it either way. We, as women, may be to blame in some respect but I can guarantee if we asked the women commenting did they want to be married and did they think their actions personally ruined the institution of marriage all hell would break loose. (Kanye shrug)
        My recent post Where Tragedy, Pain, Service and Love Intersect

        • WisdomIsMisery

          Hugh essentially captured my thoughts. I will add this, and I've said it all up and done this thread today, just because I ask a question about women doesnt mean men are innocent. That doesnt even make sense. That's like if I say Coke is good I cant recognize that Pepsi taste good too? No.

          Lastly, when I asked the same question of men last week, I didnt see men (or women) asking why was I was accusing men or placing all the blame on men, because I wasnt. I asking a question. Answering that question (or any question) by saying "well they do it too" is, in my opinion, not a very mature arguement. That said, I appreciate you elaborating on your comment unlike some others. So beyond that, I dont really disagree with anything else you wrote.

        • http://fromraewithlove.com/ Rae

          LOL Hugh!! Point taken. I stand corrected. Yes, I am guilty of that – I missed that post last week BTW. I hear this complaint from men about women commenting on blogs all the time so I stand corrected in that sense. But when you ask us are we at fault – you know we're going in.

          I hope it doesn't come across that I blame men – that's so far from what I believe. I'm just saying women aren't entirely at fault. I think we all share the blame – maybe I just need to put it straight like that. It got lost in my translation.

          I definitely appreciated your post and your following up on my comment and even calling me out….lol.
          My recent post Where Tragedy, Pain, Service and Love Intersect

        • Hugh Jazz

          "I just wonder is it really ALL our fault?"

          No. But for most men, assigning blame isn't the issue. They are looking at the current state of affairs, doing a cost-benefit analysis for marriage, and passing on it.

          "The other thing is why WOULDN'T a man propose if he's getting everything? I would think, and this is just me, he would propose and marry her to keep her."

          That's a lot of risk for something you already have. It's like having a legal clause to continue to doing a good job at work. You figure you will, but why enter a punitive contract when you aren't gaining anything? Again, this is just how some men think, not me.

          "Honestly, at this stage of the game, women have as much money as men do, etc."

          It is definitely hard on everyone besides the money. Just more reasons men avoid the mental and emotional heartache.

          "I just think we don't respect the institution any more…we as men and women, need to stop…ruining the good potential spouses for others."

          Agreed.

  • HoneyBeeSweet

    I usually read and share my opinions in real life but today I’m feeling some kind of way. I do not think that the two questions are comparable. I believe that individually they are both valid questions to ask. However, the reason Black men are not marrying black women is not because Black women aren’t requiring men to do so. I personally have not devalued marriage however I do believe that women in general have underrated the value of marriage. I also believe that women have underrated their own value and have allowed men to take from them without a trace of commitment. If the beneficence of marriage needs to be sold to you, then marriage is probably not for you. The value of relationship and marriage is intrinsic, essentially you get what you put into it. By the way, not everyone is providing those intangibles prior to entering into a marriage covenant. As far as knowing what a man wants and needs, I focus on being the best me that I can be and when it’s time I’ll meet all of his wants and needs. I dont know who my husband is and Im not going to wander through life trying to be the perfect woman for every man I date.

    Other than that I’m bothered by this idea that black women stop black men from doing right by them. I think people should have the integrity to do right no matter the circumstance. All the men who are saying how much women devalue marriage are participating in all of the intangibles and pointing the finger in blame.

    • msb616

      "I think people should have the integrity to do right no matter the circumstance."

      Perfectly stated.

      • Larry

        I agree…perfectly stated. What "should be/have" vs. what "is" , however are two separate realities. People should have great integrity overall….but not everyone displays integrity in every situation. Should they? Sure…is it realistic for them to do so? No.
        My recent post bruiser_ham: @_msjaime my money is on Money Mayweather…it can def go either way. Pac-man ain't be able to win if its a decision, tho @og_humble_one

        • HoneyBeeSweet

          That statement wasn’t intended to mean people should be without flaw because that is impossible. Instead my thought was that you can not be can active part of the problem and point the finger at someone else. In reference to this blog post, black women are not the only factors contributing to the decline in the value of marriage.

    • cynicaloptmst81

      "Im not going to wander through life trying to be the perfect woman for every man I date."

      Love that line…love it!

    • WisdomIsMisery

      @HoneyBeeSweet. You'll notice the title of the blog (purposefully) does not have "black" women in it. However, this being a predominately black site, I knew the discussion would focus on black women and that's fine. I do, however, agree that this issue goes beyond black women.

      I think people should have the integrity to do right no matter the circumstance.

      I agree. I would also ask in return, where is the integrity (self esteem, pride, respect for self, expectation, standards and more) in women allowing a man to repeatedly do wrong by them? Beyond the "do onto others" mindset, perhaps we should address the do not allow others to do on to me beyond that which I value myself? Many men believe – rightly or wrongly – they cannot do anything to a woman she does not allow. Just something to consider…
      My recent post Do Black Men Not Value Marriage

    • TheTravelingType

      "Be the best me" <—-love it and glad you said that too!

    • theoneash20

      Still living on fantasy island I see

  • msb616

    hm.

    1) Have women devalued marriage? No. We all have collectively contributed to the moral coma that is marriage. Let’s quit blaming women and look at the context of the world we live in. We’re schizo and way too individualistic.

    2) why should men get married?

    I can’t speak for men. What i do know is that everyone (men and women)..no matter how hard we try to act, want companionship. period. we want to feel love, liked, appreciated and taken care of. I think the title of husband and wife brings a sense of responsibility. It’s like becoming a doctor. Once you have that “PhD” after your name, you act differently and carry yourself differently. Marriage is the same. Some people work hard for that title and turn it into an opportunity to be a better person and hopefully whoever you are with can help with that. I know where I lack, and I know the particular kind of man to help me get better. I believe there’s a man out there for me who feels the same.

    And Sex isn’t a rare occurrence. Most people know how to cook a meal. And many of us actually know how to listen and give advice. But marriage is a way of saying “I want YOUR hands on me”, “I want YOUR advice” and “I like the way YOU make my chicken and fried plantain in those booty shorts”. That’s all.

    3) For those women who want to be married someday, do you know what a man looks for in a wife? If yes, please share your opinion. Inversely, for the men who plan on marrying, please explain what you are looking for in a wife. For additional context, if you are comfortable doing so, sharing your age will add to the discussion.

    I’m 30. I’m just now learning what men look for based on what I’ve seen in marriages that are working (among people in my age group). I think men want adventure..they want to be feel useful, valued, and like they are part of unit…not just the ATM machine that happens to have a penis. Clearly, sex is desired but more than that, my observation is that they want to be pleased and enjoy pleasing. They want to f-k like rabbits but also have the option to make love and be taken to another place. I also am starting to see that men want to feel a sense of accomplishment when they walk next to their wife…like “yea, i got this. ain’t she bad!?”…but not in a pimp-ish, arrogant kind of way. Simple. There’s more but i’ll stop there.

    My guy friends tell me not to be so damn nice and to quit doing stuff I’d do for a BF for a guy im just “seeing”. Women gotta leave stuff to the imagination…let him wonder what you’re capable of..help him see that you can cater and dont mind being catered to. Anytime my ex (RIP) did something for me, no matter how big or small, i said thank you with a deep kiss. He told me no other woman had done that. *shrug* I wouldn’t do all that with a guy im just kickin it with. Until a guy proves he’s serious, he gets the minimum from me. When I feel like we’re getting somewhere, I’ll start to show him the possibilities.

    done and done.

  • Truth Be Told

    * dips out of this particular comment section*

    I am SO tired of hearing this "it's your fault, no, it's your fault" discussion! What else is new?

    • Caesar20417

      Where is blame assigned in this post? I see a question, I dont see blame being assigned. Conversation is healthy. The more we communicate, the closer we can get to a place of understanding. No one is placing blame.

      • NaijaSweetz

        lol To be fair, "Women are the culprit to the devaluation of marriage." shows a pretty clear assignment of blame.

        • Caesar20417

          The conversation took a historical view of the shift in attitude toward marriage and sex during the first wave of the feminist movement. That shift was then recorded and reported in a book called american women and sex (1959). Following the historical shift in womens attitude we can conclude a devaluation (historically) this is not blame. This is the natural correlation that takes place options are presented. The 1930's woman did not have the same opportuninty or options as the woman of 2011 have. therefore her world and value system was shaped by her options. So her value of marriage based on her best option was considerably higher. The 1930's woman society was also more ridgid, bias, segregated, religious so on and so forth. With the change of environment there came a change in how marriage was valued. The other point was also historical that men never set the value of marriage since the greastest benifactor was women. This was all taken from a historical vantage point. If you want to argue from the stance of what should and shouldnt…ill sit this one out. But historically there is no contest. And there is no blame

  • http://codecipher.blogspot.com MeteorMan

    Oh! Man.. too bad I can't fully participate.

    *throws chair*

    Because if they did, they would [not] represent 70% of the women with children out of wedlock, a situation that statistically places them as the least likely to be married.

    Let me revive an Adonis comment/question (ad-libbed of course): Why are these women CHOOSING to have the children of guys who don't intend to marry them given the availability of contraceptives?

    Do women still wish to get married for the sake of bettering their lives? If there's a discontinuity between the old days and now, at what point do you (men, women, whoever) think the practical reasoning for marriage became blurred? In other words, when did it transition from 'I have to marry to better my life' to 'I have to marry to _______'?

    Why are women getting married?

    56% of AA men getting married doesn't mean that 56% of AA aren't able to get sex and an heir without marriage.

    What IS marriage if it has strayed from it's origins a way for a woman to survive?

    *ducks and runs*
    My recent post How to implement an OODBMS (pt. 1)

    • theoneash20

      Geez Meteor… Geez…

      I am starting to believe that women in general cannot solve their own problems & they need ALOT of help from men BEFORE they S*xual market value drops too low

      Men are essential for women as women are essential for men…

  • Camille

    Thanks for sharing your perspective. That was really brave :)

  • Truth Be Told

    Let the refining and improving of your OWN life keep you so busy that you have little time to criticize others – H Jackson Brown Jr.

    The problem with this modern era is that we're always so busy criticizing (blaming if you will) others and not looking in the mirror. Of course marriage is going to suffer as a result. Narcissism at its worst!

  • Camille

    Great comments!

  • Camille

    As a single AA woman in Los Angeles I will say that this entire discussion has been refreshing. It's great to know that Black men (based on the comments today) do care about marriage and family. Even though some opinions vary, I hope I'm not the only woman who see's all of the positives here. Thanks for sharing your insights my brothers!

  • Truth Be Told

    On a random note, not so serious note, interesting thing about the google search results WIM. When you start typing "Why do white men…" you get almost the exact same drop down questions, just vice versa. Like any economist knows, you can manipulate the data to tell whatever story you want to tell ;-).

    • NaijaSweetz

      lol, I just found a blog called "White Guys Who Love Black Women".

  • Breebree

    Yes I think some women (not all) do devalue marriage. Women who were raised with good examples of happy and satisfied couples who had pretty good, happy and satisfying marriages and stayed together and learned from examples and the wisdom passed down by women who were great wives like their mom, grandmoms and auntie's (like myself) do not devalue marriage.
    Some other women who were not raised by women who were good wives (or women who were married) and saw enough examples around them of good wives and happy marriages do devalue marriage.
    The reason you have many divorced single women is because they did not value and respect marriage and were cluesless about what it took to be a great wife and/or were not willing to consistently do Everything it took to be a great wife.
    As I said in yesterdays post, some women are more infatuated with the wedding and the "fairytale" idea of being married and somebody's wife, than actually consistently "doing the work" to keep her husband happy and satisfied.
    Men should get married when they meet a woman that they love and are in love with and they are financially stable and they are willing to take that chance and join their life with her. They should get married when they feel and think they are with a woman who will potentially be a good wife and helpmate and has all the qualities he is looking for in a wife. Men should get married when they Ready to, and not a second before. Reality is men who are bamboozled, seduced, cajoled, and tricked into marriage before they are ready many times don't make good husbands and the woman is still not satisfied with him. Not to mention those are the men who typically are "unhappily married."
    I'm 36 and know right now that I would make an amazing wife for the right man.
    As I stated before I grew up around aunts, and my grandparents and just neighbors and family friends who had great marriages and I learned a lot from them. I grew up in a family where the women did actually make sure the men got the "big piece of chicken" and they always fixed the men's plates all the time. In fact all my grandpop did was work. He didn't have to do a damn thing in the house (but relax) until my grandmom got sick with alzheimers and could no longer do anything.
    My grandpop didn't even drive. My grandmom drove him where-ever he had to go, and she never complained and did it with a genuine smile and a sweet spirit and to my knowledge was damn happy and content.
    I asked my grandmom as a child didn't she get tired of cooking and cleaning and running errands everyday. She said sometimes but she told me straight up this is part of what marriage and having a family is all about. My grandmom didn't work when she married my grandpop, but she was up fixing him and whoever was in the house breakfast, she would take him lunch to work and had dinner on the table ready for him when he got home. All he had to do was sit down and eat. She told me this is what marriage is…365. If your not willing to do these things then don't get married, and don't marry a man your Not willing to do all these things and more for. I never forgot that.
    Thats why I never married (by choice) in my 20's. I had family tell me honestly that i wasn't ready, and I was honest enough with myself to know they were right. Because I knew I didn't want the RESPONSIBILITIES that go with being married and being the best wife for any man when I was younger. I was selfish and in my own little world and wasn't picking up after and catering to no grown azz man. That was my attitude then.
    Did I have men who wanted to marry me…Yes. At 23 the guy I dated wanted to marry me. I didn't even want too serious of a relationship then. Even though I didn't sleep around, I enjoyed dating. It was fun.
    I enjoyed the free dinners, movies, concerts, plays, picnics, and shows and just meeting and getting to know new people.
    I didn't want to be tied down to one person in my 20's. So when 3 of the men I dated in my 20's expressed that they wanted to marry me, I honestly told them no and kindly and considerately explained to them why.
    I told them I wouldn't make a good wife for them and told them that even though I didn't mind catering to them sometimes, I didn't want to have to do it all the time. I wasn't trying to cook every day and I just wanted my freedom. I didn't want any man (or anybody for that matter) telling me what to do and how to dress and don't cut my hair and when to come home.
    I was reveling in my new found "grown azz woman-ness." Also when I was in college I focused on my education because I paid for it (well my family did) out of pocket. So I took it very seriously and made sure I graduated with honors and got my moneys worth.
    It took me until I was almost 30 to get out of my unselfishness and grow mentally, emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually as a woman and a person. It was then that I reached the point where I could, like my grandmom, happily and joyfully cook for, clean up after, cater to, and satisfy sexually (yes including fellatio) a man I loved and was in love with everyday 365.

    • cbrantley15

      Bree, thank you for your honety…

      • Breebree

        your welcome cbrantley15

        • Camille

          I'm exhausted by everything you listed that your granny did. She definitely did work! She may not have held a conventional job outside the home, but Lawdhamercy! She put her time in, LOL! Definitely not a slacker. I bet she made other women look bad and had their husband's pointing out everything she did wishing they would do it too :)

        • Breebree

          lol…Yes Camille she believed that if you were gonna do something to do your best. She wasn't perfect but she gave her all to most everything she did.

  • Breebree

    And girl if you think thats a lot I won't even mention my mom….lol She got it honest from my grandmom….*smile*

  • Miss. B.M

    Let me preface this by saying that I love the blog and that I’m a regular reader- I just don’t comment. Midterms are here and my free time is gone! Nonetheless, this post struck a chord and I had to respond.
    First, let’s discuss the purpose of marriage: sex and heirs. I agree that at the basic level that this is true. However the key word is heir- simple procreation doesn’t signify an heir. By definition an heir is “a person inheriting and continuing the legacy of a predecessor”. Those born out of wedlock were not meant to receive this title; and those that did fought for it, example Shaka Zulu and William the Conqueror. Essentially what I’m saying is that if you want a child to continue legacy, marriage is the requirement to ensure that, sex is the means.
    And so what happened? Do men still want need heirs? From a financial stand point, the answer is no. Prior to the mid 18th-19th century, children of divorce automatically went to the father. That was a financial gain- children could work the land etc. After that, there was a shift in which children were in the primary custody of the mother. Consequently, colonial/agricultural household systems were steadily declining as well
    Second, I wanted to touch on love marriages. It is true “love marriages” are a fairly new concept and they have no immediate intrinsic value. However love marriages are adhered to by both women and men. More importantly, the biggest propionates of love marriages were men. During the New Negro era men expected mates who would not only nurture them and take care of their households and children, but also wives who would be comfortable with entertaining and socializing. New Negro women expected husbands to have money and education- which would still afford her survival and alliance. Men initiated a companionship aspect in marriage and women followed. Overall women can seek companionship outside of a marriage, so initially its wasn’t as big of a selling point for marriage.
    Third, “free sex” does/did have an overall detrimental effect on relationships. Initially birth control was created to give women more control of their bodies, mainly so they can have some control in family planning- within a marriage. But I’m curious as to know how many men would marry virgins and vice versa.
    In no way am I trying to ricochet the blame back to men. I just simply wanted to point out that things aren’t that simple and that men are at fault as well.

  • http://simplynersh.com Nersh

    Good post. As our mothers always told us, “Why buy the cow, when you can get the milk for free?” I actually was just discussing this point with a friend when the world was antagonizing over Kim Kardashian’s divorce — the advent of “love marriages”, as aforementioned by Miss B.M., is relatively new. Until recent decades, marriage has nearly always been a commerical enterprise.

    I’d like to address your first question. I don’t think women have devalued marriage nearly as much as they have devalued themselves (Obviously not all women, and I am not female bashing, because I myself am female). But there are definitely some women who walk a fine line between being empowered and straight up being a ho, excuse my French. If you’re sleeping with a man, having his children, paying his bills, etc, but have no ring on that finger, he’s going to continue to get what he can from you. It’s only human nature. This kind of behavior, imho, indicates a woman’s lack of respect in herself, but it also seems to happen because the woman doesn’t know her own boundaries. Women shouldn’t be pressuring a man into marriage who doesn’t want to be married, but a woman should also know what she will and will not tolerate. If she doesn’t have boundaries for herself, how can she expect a man to respect those boundaries? Women are devaluing marriage by seeking love and acceptance from all the wrong places.

    As for your last question, I’m in my early twenties, and aside from reading Hill Harper and talking to male friends who care more about the latest Tweet or football score than marriage, I don’t really know what men are looking for in a wife. I would hope they are looking for someone who is respectful, loyal, intelligent, and caring — because those are all things, as a Black woman, I am looking for in a future mate.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=585543618 Alaysha Suggs

    1) Have women devalued marriage?
    Yes they have, but men are also. They go hand in hand. A woman cannot completely devaule an traditional stronghold without the aid of the other parties, such as media and the opposite sex willingly accepting it. Yes I know guys operate in a different fashion but did you ever consider the fact that the need for a body count isn't helping with a woman's image of herself? And I know the argument that a woman should have a higher image of themselves, but how is she suppose to attain that when she is the product of a single family home that never had a father to stick around and teach her that she is worth something more than her body, more than what her mom received from her father? Think about it. This devolution is taking entire families and generation with it. So yes, both are to blame equally.

    2) Other than tradition, with many of the intangibles traditionally associated with marriage now available without commitment in today’s society, why should men get married?
    Why wouldn't a man want more than a one-night stand or long-term relationship from a woman who doesn't want to show her appreciation and loyalty to you in front of all of her friends, family, and God? Also, when there is a child, don't you want your name tagged at the end rather than just saying, "Thats my kid?" Leaving a legacy behind that doesn't require your affirmation whenever someone meets you child?

    3) For those women who want to be married someday, do you know what a man looks for in a wife? If yes, please share your opinion. Inversely, for the men who plan on marrying, please explain what you are looking for in a wife. For additional context, if you are comfortable doing so, sharing your age will add to the discussion.
    As a 20 year-old college student, I'm not going to lie and say that I know exactly what a man looks for in a wife, but I do think that I know a few things. A man looks for loyalty in his wife, because there's no guarantee that he will be able to find that in the workplace or even in his own family and friends. She's suppose to be loyal to him regards of whether he's right or wrong, because she will stand firmly beside him. They also look for someone who will remind him of home. Not necessarily a generic copy of his own mother, but someone he can go to when everything is falling apart and he'll feel safe and protected. Someone he can feel comfortable enough with to share their darkest secrets and deepest desires. Someone that he can have fun and joke around with and remind them of good that he had in his family or what he's looking for that his family didn't give him. A man is also looking for a wife who is not only willing, but also eager to please and satisfy him. This is not at all exclusively related to sex, but it is included. He wants someone who won't constantly bash him or bring him down and see the lesser or imperfections within himself. He wants a wife that not only builds him up, but also makes him aspire and push towards becoming a better man and a better person. As a young black female, I feel as though I man finds it necessary that his wife can cook, or at least is smart enough to find what he likes and give it to him. Now this isn't from blogs or my own experience, but from seeing how true couples within my own life are their for each other, regardless of the issue or circumstance, and they still try to bring out the best in each other.

  • Pingback: Relationships in Debt: My Money, Her Money, Our Money « ramalblog.com

  • IZ Andrew Snobette

    This is a good post and I wish I'd been here when it was written.

    Females have devalued marraige. Not women. I stress there's a difference and calling a female a woman is quite offensive to someone who actually IS one. Someone who puts an emphasis on looks and entertainment, who's sole purpose is to date and have sex with those she is comfortable with is a female.Someone who gives a guy generic versions of what a wife would do for him dilute the value placed on marraige in a male's mind.

    A woman, someone who cultivates herself her home her family and her man as her emphasis is placed on morals and traditional values, intelligence and self confidence, is the person who holds out and therefore makes marraige seem more valuable because SHE is more valuable to him.

    • IZ Andrew Snobette

      Then again. Even though this is right I'm wrong. Because majority of marraiges are the result of two people who dated and aren't quite up to par with a man and woman. They get married and work out the issues as they grow older and experience greater things together. As opposed to a female who cultivates herself, her home, her maternal instincts, her intelligence and a man who is taught by her to care for her and to handle the experiences they will have in the future. I believe the latter is what makes relationships last thirty, forty, fifty years.

      That's my personal opinion. I'm twenty two.

      • IZ Andrew Snobette

        Placing emphasis on cultivating the value of a female before sleeping with her.

        Males need to ask themselves, 'am I strong enough (good enough) to do that' and if that's what they actually want out of life. Or do they just wanna be called a man without doing the necessary work and the more difficult feats in life to earn such a title.

        I think only a woman can dub a male a man. I don't think real women exist anymore. In my head I judge females on the quality of thier opinion and males on their honesty about who they are. My conclusion is that males would rather female surf and focus on profession as opposed to approaching someone who oozes "woman" and asking her hand in marraige.

  • onada

    Yes

  • onada

    This is gonna hurt. Everybody definition of LOVE is different and that is one of the problems. There is 20 billion different definitions of love that people pick and choose from to cater to their own selfish… i mean specific need. Why would a man want to invest his time, resources and energy on something that is so flighty. The wedding vows contradicts what love truly is. No human being can love forever! I have never seened a real example of true love forever and i am not ashamed to admit that. Love changes with the times. Love changes as we get older. People change. Who invented the stupid phrase “I love you but Im not IN love with you.” Probably a feminist female. Why would i want to marry that? If i cant get quality and consistent sex a women who appreciates me and everything that comes with me as a true man that stands by his principles then marriage aint for me. Now to a more serious issue that NOBODY is talking about. In this matriarchy society, the LAWS cater to women in every way. Lets see how much you women what to marry us if the laws were benefitual to men in a bias way. Would women still want marriage? No. Cost/benefit analysis.. marriage is a killer mouse trap. Sex is the cheese! The goverment is the PREDATOR from the actual movie called the PREDATOR and the LAWS are the weapons. Stupid men are jesse the body venture and the rest of the special task force squad. Smart men are more like Arnold Swharzenager. Run from this feminist doctrine of danger and you will receive tbe mud/wisdom that will protect you, teach you the ways of the laws and keep the government and mercenary women from seeing you in anyway. Bottom line there is no benefit for a man to jump off a 16 story building…. Ooops! I mean to get marry. HOWEVER, A MAN HAS A LOT TO LOSE!!: alimony forever, properties, a in america a wife can have an affair and get pregnant with another man’s baby but the family courts will want the husband of the wife to pay child support for a kid that isnt his by saying we dont want to confuse the child or this is for the best interst of the child. Why would anyone want to be a huaband if this type of stuff is allowed BY LAW!!! They need to change the laws and make it desirable for men to marry. Therer are also laws created by feminist that rewards a wife with money to hit her husband in public to further emasculat a man. This is a bounty law to break up the institution of marriage. I have a question. Who is the one solely filing for divorce 85% of the time? A) men B)monkeys C) women? I have a homework assignment for everyone. Read the LAWS in this country which does varies from state to state and tell me if a man’s personal rights are not part of the reason marriage for men is financial suicide. Women chose laws over love. Sorry ladies… NO DEAL!!!!

  • http://www.formvote.com/ social networking

    I like this article!!!! So interesting

  • drblais

    that's why i always ask my self what is wrong with that girl if i see one dating a black man they never take care of their kids as evident every time i leave my house and you see single black women with 5 kids from different fathers who do nothing for their kids and many white women with interracial babies on welfare because a black man abandoned their child yet again. why would any woman in her right mind date a black man especially one who cant even put their pants on correctly n$gg**s sag black men wear a belt