Christianity and Islam in Separation of Church and State

America’s renewed interest in the Egyptian elections caused me to pause and contemplate the entire theory of separation of church and state in democracies. A Muslim Brotherhood candidate, Mohammed Morsi, will face Ahmed Shafik in a runoff election for Egypt’s presidency. A lot of outside interest has been paid to this election because Shafik is a veteran of the ousted leader Hosni Mubarak‘s regime. Within the country, a lot of Egyptian citizens fear that if either one comes into power then that means an end to any democratic gains formed by last year’s uprising. This runoff election is asking citizens to choose between a military-rooted party who promises a firm hand to ensure stability, and Islamists vowing to implement religious law (Egypt has a sizeable Christian population).

Last week I turned my television to CNNs Starting Point and the topic of Egypt’s election was brought up. A panelist (can’t remember her name) said that America should intervene on behalf of preserving democracy. Another panelist, William Cain, stated that since Egypt has fought for democracy then they should implement separation of church and state. The last panelist, Roland Martin, had the most common sense. He immediately came at the other two panelists and asked “Why can’t they make their own decisions about what’s best for them?”

The right to freedom of religion is believed to be so central to American democracy that it was enshrined in the First Amendment to the Constitution along with other fundamental rights such as freedom of speech and freedom of the press. In order to guarantee an atmosphere of absolute religious liberty, this country’s founders also mandated the strict separation of church and state. Largely because of this prohibition against government regulation or endorsement of religion, diverse faiths have flourished and thrived in America since the founding of the republic.

My issue with separation of church and state in this country (and most democracies around the world) is that most people have no problem with church and state intermingling as long as that religion is Christianity. Aside from claiming that Barack Obama wasn’t born in Hawaii, the claim that most right-wing conservatives to try to remove him from office is that he’s Muslim (as if that’s an impeachable offense). Most people are really close-minded when it comes to people who practice different religions. Christianity is right and every other religion is wrong. If a Muslim were to have any real power, they would send this country to hell in a handbasket (as if we weren’t already on our way). In order to persuade other religions from obtaining any political power, separation of church and state was established.

We know that’s not true. The motto “In God We Trust” is on our currency. One could argue that “God” in the motto could be any religion’s God but what about those people who don’t believe in God at all? In this year’s Republican primary debates, religion has been a central topic. From Mitt Romney’s Mormonism to Rick Santorum’s overall craziness and hard stance against separation of church and state, it seems that at least Christian-based religions play a large part in government. I believe that if you’re going to claim separation of church and state then you have to take a hard stance. You can’t let one religion dominate government while openly keeping others out. This is not true democracy because then the ideological views of one religious group are more represented than others.

Do you believe in separation of church and state? Do you think Christians are not as tolerant as they could be towards other religions? How do you feel about the external pressure on Egyptian elections?

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  • http://www.wildcougarconfessions.com Wild Cougar

    I think this is not a totally secular nation. Just like its not a totally capitalist economy. We have some religion and socialism here. Its not all or nothing. Second, separation of church and state exists also to protect the practice of religion. The reason the nation was formed was too assure that the government didnt persecute the faithful. So lets not get too far ahead of ourselves trying to make this a religion free zone. That’s not what freedom of religion is about. Discrimination against a particular religion is wrong. But we cannot ignore the fact that this is a primarily Christian country, based on population. That’s not likely to change, so pretending its not the case is an exercise in futility.

    • http://www.wildcougarconfessions.com Wild Cougar

      Hmm. Moderation? Wonder why…. Ack, I’m already bored with this. *goes back to work*

  • http://uphereoncloud9.wordpress.com Wu Young

    Good post Slim!

    Do you believe in separation of church and state? — Yes religious freedom is very important. It fosters the protection of the state from the church (the idea which caused the first Euros to flee to the lower 48), the minding of one's business (A lost art.), and a certain level of tolerance. *side note* I honestly don't care if Mitt or Barack ever go to church again. It's none of my business.)

    Do you think Christians are not as tolerant as they could be towards other religions? — The Christians I know both little and big C are a mixed bag. They range from extremely tolerant to the opposite end of the spectrum. Those who are the most intolerant are the most uninformed also.

    • http://uphereoncloud9.wordpress.com Wu Young

      How do you feel about the external pressure on Egyptian elections? — I wish the Egyptian people would be left alone. Uncle Sam and others are poking their noses around to do their best to see that whatever new regime gets elected honors the treaty with Israel. This nation's obsession with Israel and the greater Middle East is kind of creepy (And vice versa.). Both sides of the isle use Israel and Iran as a chip to play to the religous voters in this country. Notice Fox News or any other news said little to nothing when the head of the Israeli defense force made comments basically saying that Iran would probably be responsible with nukes. (Wonder why Romney didn't talk about that?)

      • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

        i honestly believe that if most countries (including us) could conquer jerusalem we would. the violence that has taken part during the 20th century in the gaza strip has as much to do with us as it does israel and egypt. i can understand the reasoning. jersusalem has been a city that has been fought over for centuries. america/england and many other super powers want to keep their interests there in tact. just don't piss on my leg and tell me its raining.
        My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • http://uphereoncloud9.wordpress.com Wu Young

          I've always said the Jerusalem should me made an open city but that would involved a lot of people who think that they are chosen to get over themselves.

    • Larry

      Pretty much agree with everything that is written here. The notion that that intermingling of church and state is cool as long as that church is yours is somewhat of a common theme outside of religion. (i.e. tea partiers want small government, but chanting don't touch my social security or medicare). People basically want what they want and look out for their own best interest, naturally.

      • Alakaii Hawaii

        I think that applies more so to America. People don't like us because we're ignorant thugs with no moral compass. That's how foreign nations see us, for the most part. We, as a people, and as a nation need to either conform to our founding religion or we need to take the submissive role to the nation we seek to intermingle with or become allied to.

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          it applies to more than america in my opinion. the problem is just exacerbated here in america. i was ranting about this kind of saturday morning. as a nation america's moral compass is broken and it seems like we have no desire to right the ship.
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Right? I totally agree.

          Ugh. This post. Lit a fuel. I was thinking in the wee hours of the morning how I wanted to become a politician and I've been not pursuing it just for the sheer level of stress it would take to try to correct a nation that drastically but. It pains me. I'm so passionate. I think we could do it as a country, try to correct it. It would take a lot. but. I would hope to see it in my lifetime. An America with morals.

    • http://www.therealslimjackson.com Slim Jackson

      I forgot to change the author name on this joint when I posted it. The man behind the magic is Tunde. Glad you enjoyed though.
      My recent post Free Write Friday, Award Nominations, and Career Development

  • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

    Yes, I strongly believe in separation of church and state as it pertains to African politics. There is a lot of hypocrisy involved in our "democracies". There are fairly a good number of Christians who could learn to be tolerant! Why the HECK is America interested in the political journey of Egypt?! Abeg, leave them alone. We already know its interest is vested upon gains……NEXT! The Egyptians are a capable people, they can think for themselves, and even if they can't quit meddling in their affairs. URRRRRRRGH!

    • WAChick

      THIS.

    • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

      lol don't get me started on african politics. nigeria just became a democracy in 1999 after a long standing military rule. you wouldn't think we were a democracy based upon some of the nonsense that goes on in my country. smh
      My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

      • MarchRush

        Tunde from your name I know you are my naija brother. How you dey? I’m glad whenever I see my nigerian people being useful, especially in the diaspora. This issue of religious intolerance is not something peculiar to Christians. As you should know, Nigeria has had a long and storied struggle with the same matter and contrary to the message of this piece, muslims have been the transgressors, carrying out pogroms and murdering non-muslims with bloody savage glee.
        Muslims in the west constantly protest marginalisation but say nothing about the hostile attitude of muslim governments in the middle east towards christians. Why do they want the rights that they deny others? The freedom that muslims have to erect large mosques in the west is amazing. Christians wouldn’t dream to put up large church buildings in Saudi Arabia for instance. When you start crying foul please spare a thought for the Christians under islamic government that practise their faith with the fear of the unknown and remember that muslims in the west are spoilt rotten by comparison.

    • Phosa

      just wanted to say that i L.O.V.E the fact that ur pic is Wangari Maathai!!!!
      oh, and you know, good point :D

      • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

        thanks hun!!! That's my H.E.R.O. I LOVE LOVE LOVE her.
        My recent post Ara- Brymo

  • http://uphereoncloud9.wordpress.com Wu Young

    My bad Tunde! I didn't read the byeline. I said "Good post Slim!"

    • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

      lol its cool. slim helped me out with the editing.
      My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

  • http://learninglover.com/blog AfterMath

    One of the most important things about America is trying to maintain the balance that ensures that we are not merely a mob rule that can ignore the rights of a certain class of people based on the desires of that mob. There are several examples in American history where this mob rule has done just this, but one of the reasons that the Constitution is held in such high regard is that it places certain things in place to disallow such things, and to allow for change when certain mobs are seen to be ruling unjustly.

    Religion, speech, press and assembly have historically been used in such a regard, so much so that most consider them as essential to the development of a democracy. If these elements are not present, then how can the people try to change the government without another attempt to overthrow it?

    The thing about religion is that (most) people practicing it view it as static. So a government that's based on religions is also limited by that religion and thus cannot grow the way a democracy (like the US) can. Its a lot easier to amend the Constitution, than it is to change the Bible or the Koran. So basing a government primarily on those documents and calling it a democracy can lead to a bit of false advertising.
    My recent post My Life (as a Number)

    • Alakaii Hawaii

      I agree with you. I think remaining static in adherence to religious tradition is the point though. Our nation…is absolutely bankrupt. As human beings and as a nation, we are bankrupt. Yet we call ourselves "Christian" when NOTHING about our behaviors or beliefs reflect it. THAT is hypocrisy. The beauty in religious-based-government is that though conflict is much more potent for them, the nation is based in wealth and prosperity. Either, or, sometimes a mix of both. The United States constantly pressuring them to convert to OUR way of life is a lot times the issue.

  • Alakaii Hawaii

    Foreign elections will always be, in one way or another, a choice between militarism and religion. Not in western worlds or first worlds but in developing nations and areas it's always a battle between it's people wanting to assimilate into OUR version of culture and those who want to adhere to religious tradition. That is the core basic of majority of foreign election. That is where a lot of domestic conflict causes uproar. That is why America is so quick to intervene in national affairs. For one, our nation as a whole is generally flailing about when it comes to resources and sustaining its people so we have something to gain in most foreign affairs, which is why it baffles me people are so down on Bush. Secondly, as "the most powerful nation in the World" we're obligated to intervene or play intermediary or to help or guide other nations less established. Regardless of my personal opinion on the matter: that's the reality.

    • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

      That is why America is so quick to intervene in national affairs.
      I FAINTED and rose back again in time to comment! America is not quick to intervene because of genuine concern, let's keep it one hundred, it stands to GAIN something in return for its "concern". You think it's intervention of the Sudan crisis is because it cares for my people?! Please, OIL!

      No, you are NOT obligated to intervene or play intermediary roles. We do not want your intervention in our countries! Leave us be and our problems. I HATE when the West, is quick to jump on policy recommendations based on what THEY think is right, and the fact they think we are a primitive people. That is so insulting!
      My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

      • Alakaii Hawaii

        LOL. Let me clarify: nations having to choose between religion and assimiliation is what causes conflict in those nations. We intervene because we're the most powerful nation and therefore the most powerful democracy not to mention, the resources and ally we stand to gain as what's available to us to sustain ourselves becomes less and less. We meddle in international affairs because it's necessary for our survival AND because we're partially obligated to as the leader of the western, contemporary world.

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Hey wait! You live in Africa??

          Geez. Let me be the first to apologize on behalf of my nation . Our leaders feel it's their job to smooth over conflict because that's just what a leader does when there's bickering. I personally understand though, I don't agree with the opportunism and I agree with you. I'd like to see our government less meddlesome but again, it's necessary for our survival. I think if anything, needing resources from another nation means WE conform to THEIR beliefs and take the submissive role. Not the other way around. It's shady and meddlesome.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          Oh mi gosh!!! Dude, you keep taking me to the mortuary and then having me awake from the dead.
          Let me break it down for you, conflict in the motherland does not come about because of religion and assimilation!!!! It does however make up a small fraction of what causes conflict, but nowhere near the need for the Americas to intervene. You are the most powerful, GREAT! But you are NOT obligated to intervene. That is all I am saying. Quit meddling!!! We do not want your help. I would urge you to read, Dr. Dambisa Moyo's book: Dead Aid:Why Aid is not Working and How There is a Better Way for Africa.

          If anything, your intervention is not only giving me heart failure but crippling the African economies! BYE AMERICA and the WEST!!!!!!!! So long, fare thee, fare well, adieu—>can't remember how the song goes!!! can you?
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          *attempting to contain my obvious giddiness at scribbling that down*

          I held that belief a lot of my life, allowing America to fail, but…I live in this country lol. I think we should and learn a lesson. I also can't speak on foreign affairs as if I'm a personal, domestic participant in the conflicts of Africa but from a patriotic standpoint, that's how I view foreign affairs: the effect of tying to convert people to the western world. I absolutely will read that thank you for showing me. I personally believe if a nation, a people, or a person is saying stop. That's exactly what we should do. I will definitely read that.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          My dear, I'm the MOST, EXTRA, patriotic person you will ever come across from Africa, BUT
          I call BULLSHIIIIID when it is BULLLLSHIIID. Case in point., the plane crash in Nigeria-the government did not handle that situation well! I started getting reports from the western media FIRST and not the local media. Like that's BULLLLLSHIIID. Does that make me unpatriotic, absolutely not. . Your patriotism should not take a hold of logic!
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Um. This isn't a battle of who's most patriotic. I stated the obvious: that I can not root for a nation to fail that I live in just as you have the absolute right to tell a foreign nation to back off Africa. The logic in that is your nation has underdeveloped technology and limited experience in widespread media. Therefore, American leaders see a golden opportunity to help. Creating conflict and causing conflict, we see reason to intervene because we caused the problem in the first place. Seeing as how Africa is obviously abundant in resources, it becomes our motivation to squelch bickering. So either you want our westernized advancements and want help with it or you find your own way to do it and stop crying when we DON'T intervene in your affairs or aid you in times of disaster.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          Who is crying for your aid?! Abeg! PLLLLLLLLLLLLZ!!!!!!!!!! Gimme a break brotherman! or is it sister?!!

          If you are using our leaders as a basis to make your comments, you are truly off base! VERY.
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Again. Anything I try to explain to you is going to sound completely callous. I think you identify with your PEOPLE yet may not have direct involvement in true conflict…whereas I identify with MY nations *leaders*. So…clearly. This conversation is going to turn into a bit of an ante up and that's not what I'm about so. Soooo. I'm good.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          @ Alakaii,

          Eh, will respectfully agree to disagree. Nice chatting mista!!!:)
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          You think I'm a man?!

          Well. This IS my future son's name. *shrug* I'm a female though, lol. But that's just what I was trying to get across to you. I respectfully disagree with you on some points and I didn't want it to go left field because it has a tendency to do that in America with conflicting opinions. I wasn't personally offended or anything I just enjoyed the conversation and banter and I kinda like, there's a point I get excited and my mouth runs away with me, and your jest was a little. lol. Potent. Good natured. But I was like…'alright chill. My beast mode is activating.' And it gets me in more trouble than it moves a conversation forward so I just wanted to leave the enjoyable conversation where it was.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          oooooweee!!! I was cat fighting!! Girrrrrl, I thought you were a man not because of your comments, but your name!!!

          Just so you know hun, I tend to be VERY passionate in my discussions, especially in African affairs, otherwise I'm chill as a kookamba no harm intended!!!!!!! I too, tend to take the "bow out of this conversation route" if the conversation goes left……
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          america has a hero complex plain and simple.
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          my broda has spoken!!!!
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • http://uphereoncloud9.wordpress.com Wu Young

          I wouldn't have as much a problem with our hero complex which started due to our post war status if we were consistent in applying it. things like the Berlin Airlift, Marshall Plan, and the rebuilding of Japan were much needed but the imperialism that came from the chosing of post-war proxies only hurt when bullets started flying. Glaring examples of us doing nothing and backing the wrong horses are glaring. The actions that we and the Russians took over the last six decades were seldom done for the good of the folks we were "helping".

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          !!!!!!!!!!!!!! all of this…. america is not God's chosen country to police the world in how they see fit. if anything america needs to take care of internal issues, i.e.- high crime rates, unemployment, falling behind the world education wise.
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          "We meddle in international affairs because it's necessary for our survival AND because we're partially obligated to as the leader of the western, contemporary world."

          let me ask you this. we meddled in the affairs of iraq because…? don't say 9/11 because if that's the case 100% of our efforts would have been in afghanistan. ppl wonder why it took so long to take down bin laden. maybe because we were fighting an unnecessary war in another country. don't say WMDs either. we all know that was a joke from the very beginning. we meddle because we can, that's the only reason. it builds profits for private organizations. there is no profit in peace and humanitarianism only in death and destruction. funny how we're fighting wars in iraq and afghanistan against leaders who WE put in power.
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          "!!!!!!!!!!!!!! all of this…. america is not God's chosen country to police the world in how they see fit."

          Hey. Don't take my comments to be condoning of the behavior or as if that's my personal belief of how we should carry ourselves as a nation, I'm simply stating. If we cause a problem we feel the need to intervene in the trickle down effects. If there's a problem somewhere with resources, we feel the need to meddle because we as a nation are desperate for resources to sustain our actions. I see the logic in that though I don't agree with our approach to it.

          I agree with you BUT. I sincerely think, in an almost childish, simple naive way, that our leaders have good intentions. I think the way they carry out accruing wealth and resources is completely out of line though and that's something I agree on 100%.

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          "I agree with you BUT. I sincerely think, in an almost childish, simple naive way, that our leaders have good intentions."

          a lot of germans thought hitler had good intentions at first too. just saying.
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          lol. Yeah. That's my plight with pursuing a career in politics. *I* have good intentions. So I see our leaders as having good intentions. Sometimes though. I doubt myself. Things start off small and simple and with good intentions and it turns into something completely different. But, in my experience. I think our nation has done fairly well abiding by the Constitution, even in foreign affairs it's just. We can be a little overbearing and I think it would be good for someone to come in and say, hey. WE as a nation need to shape up as well and try a different approach for the sake of global peace and unity. Still have the exchange of knowledge and resources just in a better way for all involved.

        • http://twitter.com/inomallday Shamira

          ALL OF THIS.

          I'm sorry, but America only intervenes in "international crises" when we have a vested interest. We had/have a vested interest in Kuwait, Egypt, Iraq, most of South America, and a host of other conflicts we have inserted ourselves. But….Kosovo? The Ivory Coast? Rwanda? Haiti? I can keep going….we didn't insert ourselves into the situation until it was so morally deplorable we had no excuse. Never mind the fact that most of the time we leave a lot of those countries worse than when we left. We come in, "free the oppressors", give them a copy of our constitution, appoint an interim leader that we feel comfortable with, and then feign shock when it doesn't work out the way we didn't. We impose our will and we give them what we think that their vision of democracy should be, without taking time to acknowledge the uniqueness of every situation. But that's just the western privilege we live under. We're like the married friend that tells all of our "poor single friends" what they're doing wrong, because since we have the ring, we're winning. Never mind that we sorely need couples therapy our damn selves.
          My recent post inomallday: LMAO at the breakfast club going in on hot 97

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          "But that's just the western privilege we live under. We're like the married friend that tells all of our "poor single friends" what they're doing wrong, because since we have the ring, we're winning. Never mind that we sorely need couples therapy our damn selves."

          i'm loving your analogies today. on point.
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          You know. I had that thought. About conflicts we DIDN'T get ivolved in. And this is what I think. Again, in an almost childishly naive way, that when we cause a conflict or the action is a direct effect of the United States, we intervene. I think things that have nothing to do with we stay out of completely until, like you said, we see that's it's absolutely morally corrupt. Then we say "here's a solution" and we get out. We try to correct the behavior. I don't think it's ill intentioned I think it's largely misunderstood, though there is basis for the way people think about it and see it.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          @ Shamira,

          *Sigh*-

          America will NEVER intervene in Africa's conflict resolution issues without a STAKE/BENEFIT/$$$$$$$$

          Ivory Coast- http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27e/385.html

          Rwanda: Read paragraph, 4 the first sentence, sums it all!!!!! Why they didn't http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB117/

          Morally deplorable-You people are going to kill me, with this big terms! Abeg!!! America does not care for morality, when it comes to foreign policies! Sorry, but that's the cold hard truth!!
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • kmplx

          my dear, no vex!

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          looooool!!!!!
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

      • gemmieboo

        No, you are NOT obligated to intervene or play intermediary roles. We do not want your intervention in our countries! Leave us be and our problems. I HATE when the West, is quick to jump on policy recommendations based on what THEY think is right, and the fact they think we are a primitive people. That is so insulting!

        i get this sentiment. but if America truly did NOTHING, that would be a huge problem. i can kind of see where Alakaii Hawaii is coming from saying its part of America's survival and identity to be present in certain foreign affairs. OF COURSE WE INTERVENE WHEN THERE IS A GAIN TO BE MADE. thats how powerful {insert type nation/industry/attorneyorwhatever here] become powerful! sure you do a good deed here or a good deed there just because its "right", but by and large you intervene in foreign affairs because you have a vested interest and you have to protect your interests and assets.

        as the super world power, America IS in fact OBLIGATED to help and be in the middle of every damn thing. the problem isnt in us stepping in to "protect our investment", the problem is in us F*CKING SH*T UP. we dont listen to what the nation in question needs or wants – if they even know (lets face it, some countries are so deep in their own sh*t they have no clue how to get out of it). instead we throw out solutions WE think is best, and then have to keep stepping in to fix the fix. and the cycle continues. OR we help one side of a problem and then have to go in and do damage control because they get out of control (Saddam Hussein or Al Qaeda anyone?)

        my point is… America isnt perfect and they definitely stay losing when it comes to "helping". but i do think as a powerful nation, they are obligated to help countries in need. they are just horrible at actually addressing the points of need. and a lot of that is fueled by our own view of power as a nation.
        My recent post My God vs. My Country

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          YEAH! Exactly! I'm totally trying to say we need to adjust the way we behave in foreign affairs because it's necessary to an extent for us to be involved in them. I think if people are CLEARLY saying 'I don't like this' than we should back up, reevaluate, keep things peaceful. We have to hear what other nations are saying to us for the sake of global interaction.

        • gemmieboo

          its a very complicated problem. but i think being completely absent in foreign affairs would cause even more harm..

          besides, we're not rich enough (or rich at all really if you look at the debt smh) to be Switzerland and just BE. *shrug*
          My recent post My God vs. My Country

        • http://uphereoncloud9.wordpress.com Wu Young

          I agree on our obligations. We mess them up a lot but if we just closed down like we did in the 1930's things would get bad. It's mad irresponsible for us to walk away but it is just as irresponsible for us to try to turn a profit on it also.

          I also agree that our responses to world problems are a reflection of ourselves and also a lack of another superpower.

          Also as an American I also find it funny that our European allies let up shoulder a ton of the blame around the world considering a lot of the hot spots are former French and English colonies.

          My recent post Sh*t Talkers — What Kind Are You?

        • gemmieboo

          everything you typed??? yeah, alladat.

          i dont think its an easy issue to address – we'll lose no matter what.. but we dont really have the luxury of being neutral and we have done a lot of f*cked up sh*t to be praised.
          My recent post My God vs. My Country

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          "Also as an American I also find it funny that our European allies let up shoulder a ton of the blame around the world considering a lot of the hot spots are former French and English colonies."

          That blew my mind. I never even heard anything close to hearing that and yet it's so true.

          "It's mad irresponsible for us to walk away but it is just as irresponsible for us to try to turn a profit on it also."

          Completely personal question: Do you think it's possible for a politician to adjust or set in motion an America with better morals in general and when it comes to foreign affairs?

        • http://uphereoncloud9.wordpress.com Wu Young

          " Do you think it's possible for a politician to adjust or set in motion an America with better morals in general and when it comes to foreign affairs?"

          That's a broad question. For this to happen our foreign affairs cannot be so polarizing that they change every four to eight years depending on the administration. We have the potential to do lots of good in the world but there has to we some level of "Want to" involved. The corporate profiteers have to be shown the door so they can't influence our foreign policy. Like I said we have to take the correct and moral action with a lot of foresight. We give aid but expect certain things from the people we help. This is wrong. People have to be taught how to fish and they will thrive. Our soft-core bullying will never work.

        • MadScientist7

          "I also find it funny that our European allies let up shoulder a ton of the blame around the world considering a lot of the hot spots are former French and English colonies."

          don't forget portugal.

        • http://uphereoncloud9.wordpress.com Wu Young

          I saw that you mentioned how frustrated you are with Nigerian Democracy upthread. I was watching a History Channel Doc Called the Century of Warfare and one of the episodes talked about wars in Nigeria and I actually learned a lot about the Nigerian-Biafran war. I was well-versed on the various mishaps in the DRC and other places including Angola but the Nigerian info was new. Portugal should have just bowed out when they got the chance but we know what pride and hubris does.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          @ GB,

          No, we do not need your help. Dambisa Moyo: Dead Aid! Please read that book.

          And again, NO, absolutely NO you are NOT obligated to help us out! BYE!!—–> not you, the American gov't! You are creating myriad problems and issues for us!

          "we dont listen to what the nation in question needs or wants – if they even know (lets face it, some countries are so deep in their own sh*t they have no clue how to get out of it). instead we throw out solutions WE think is best, and then have to keep stepping in to fix the fix. "

          Since when did a superpower ever listen, again BYE!!!
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • gemmieboo

          1) you're talking about financial aid in terms of the poverty issues. and the US isnt the only country offering that type of aid to African counties.

          2) YOU dont have to like it but the so-called obligation of "rich" powerful countries is always going to be there. they are always going to be expected to do SOMETHING – whatever that something might be (i.e. Rwanda conflict/genocide). thats how powerful countries stay powerful. like it or not. that's just the way it is.

          3) i never said they DID listen – which is part of the problem. read what i said again.
          My recent post My God vs. My Country

    • kmplx

      "Foreign elections will always be, in one way or another, a choice between militarism and religion. Not in western worlds or first worlds but in developing nations and areas it's always a battle between it's people wanting to assimilate into OUR version of culture and those who want to adhere to religious tradition."

      Believe it or not, this is actually not true… take Senegal, for example, that just successfully had it's democratic election, has never been under military rule and is a secular state, despite having a majority muslim population. Because culturally it has a long history of democracy within it's culture (not it's religion). Also, think Ghana and Niger as other countries proving to be maturing into stable democracies.

      Secondly, the form of democracy inherited by most African states is adapted from colonial administrations which is usually, either based on the French system, or monarchy-based democracies like the British, Spanish etc… and not the American system (with the exception of Liberia which has only just emerged from years of civil war, but is getting on its feet thanks to a very strong and powerful female leadership (holla at your womens dems!)). The penetration of American style democracy is very recent and actually is proving to further undermine what little democratic stability wherever they try to "help".

      Thirdly, as the "just barely clinging on to the 'most powerful nation in the World' title", America has actually proven pretty unsuccessful at intervening, being an intermediary, helping or guiding other nations to better themselves, regardless of what your media tells you. At the moment, the most stable and growing economies in Africa are actually being propelled by the BRICs, especially China and India… America is fast losing it's relevance. Kinda like the most popular kid in school that someone forgot to tell high school was over.

      But I guess the greatest thing about personal opinions, like mine, is that they don't have to be based on fact.

      • Alakaii Hawaii

        Hm. This has the potential to fly completely over my head but let me try to take it apart.

        So. Some African places are founded in democracy because of European and Spanish colonization? Okay. So then…wouldn't current elections. Need to protect themselves against American colonization? Or maybe. Protect against America "attacking" for resources? So then those places you mentioned would NEED to have a militaristic candidate because of that. But…overall. America hurts more than it helps because it's intrusive and undermining what is already in motion? So America is too involved and is too set on Americanizing democracies already in form or are forming.

        You know, I guess that explains my inherit fear of being a politician because I always feel afraid we're going to inadvertedly cause a war HERE because of AMERICAN behavior and policies.

        • kmplx

          Well, I think my overall point was that America is not as relevant as America thinks it is (and Europe allows it to believe – cos well Europe was the coolest kid in Kindgarten and y'all took their spot so they bitter). Which is why when America does attack for oil (got to fill up the; gas guzzlers so you can get re-elected, mr President), they tend to get their behinds whupped, get both their own soldiers and citizens of the country they are attacking, killed and then use their media machinery to lie to their own people. The American model of "Demotatorship" (hey, new word!!) is impressive because they manage to get Americans to believe it… the rest of us are sitting here shaking our heads and making big money deals with China… as the pendulum swings to the coolest kid in college. That being an Asian kid is no coincidence, young grasshopper.

          My other point was that you cannot look at it as a dichotomy between religion and military – this works in america but not everywhere else. In my country, for example, it is a choice between different tribes, different economic powers, historical background, geographical location etc… because religion here is tolerant, the military has never been allowed to become an overwhelming force and it has a history of democracy and politics culturally (from before colonisation). And, like most West African countries, the cultural forms of governance prevailed despite colonialism, so when it comes to election time, it can include tribal, geographic, historical, military, religion, economic depending on the country. One size does not fit all.

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Wow. So. In OUR country it may be a choice between militarism and religion because that's how our nation works and we try to project that on our other places and they're just like wtf…? Because in other countries it's more so the historical background of a certain place being colonized and the fact that there are still various cultural and economic differences amongst tribes. So…that means. Elections in other countries are based on a common thread between cultures??

        • kmplx

          kinda… but you don't actually "project"… you just think you do.

          so you are correct – in most places, we look at you, smile and nod politely, wonder how you could retain the caricature of the "dumb jock", and then carry on doing whatever we were gonna do in the first place.

          the longer version is if we have oil and you guys are holding a gun, then we find a gun (also supplied by you via Europe) and bullets fly everywhere, you spend way too much money, you kill some of your own soldiers for nothing and our civilians die because your dumb jock soldiers can't tell a primary school from a weapon of mass destruction chemical factory et voila, we really start to dislike you and go play with the Asian kids cos they have money and sense! but bottom line is simply we continue doing what we were gonna do in the first place, despite you causing alot of expensive explosions and creating content for a lot of (bad) Hollywood scripts.
          and in answer to your final question, different countries have different things that determine their elections… everything depends on the context. hence, american super size is considered really unhealthy by the rest of the world… but guess Ronald McDonald never told y'all that.

      • Alakaii Hawaii

        "Thirdly, as the "just barely clinging on to the 'most powerful nation in the World' title", America has actually proven pretty unsuccessful at intervening, being an intermediary, helping or guiding other nations to better themselves, regardless of what your media tells you."

        Painfully so, I completely agree with and I lol'ed at that description of us because it's completely accurate. I don't think as a government, society, or hodge podge of cultures, we fully have the capacity to participate in global affairs. I just thought maybe it'd be better if we learned from other nations and were more…maybe not tolerant. But maybe humble. Willing to learn and understand I guess. I think foreign opinion from nation's or people's or cultures we exert ourselves on is as good as fact. "In my opinion I don't like that" = fact. So the fact of the matter is we need to adjust as a nation. Else trigger attacks when people get tired of America being a bully.

        • kmplx

          Lololol! ok now am laughing… Don't worry, Americans time to learn and be humble will come. Europe is going through it right now, so watch and learn, because as history has proven, every empire will rise and fall.

      • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

        MARRY ME!!!!!!!!!!!!

        • kmplx

          *sniggers* Me mama say woman woman marry na sin. But no vex, ah get fine, clean brotha!

  • Alakaii Hawaii

    First off, seperation of church and state is ABSOLUTELY critical for government to remain constitutional and non-oppressive. The seperation of church and state is so that our nation can adhere to basic human rights and so that a government would not have to actively shape and mold its people, allowing them to shape and mold their own beliefs and to be treated humanely in doing so. That is the doctrine we abide by. Lets not fool ourselves into thinking we live in a religious nation. Lets not fool ourselves into thinking we live in a Christian nation. Nothing about the United States is Christian that's simply our founding religion. The problem is that over time the morals and values and teachings of Christianity became diluted to the point you can no longer even redirect the nation as a whole into becoming morally civilized.

    • Alakaii Hawaii

      Nations who conform to and live by their religions have governments who ensure with an iron fist those religious standards are upheld. I think it's suffice to say those are beautiful nations. With their issues, of course. Different from our own. Yes. But have been the same over thousands and thousands of years for a reason. America would do well to learn from them but as I said, people want to be like us. Diluted and morally bankrupt, economically bankrupt, but still. Free.

      • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

        You can't make a blanket statement. like people want to be like us-please expound on who these people are. I'm currently dipping my chips ahoy in milk, I've been slum dunking thus far, so please give me an answer that will have me drafted to the WNBA soonest!
        My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          lol. There's a certain level of respect I'm trying to maintain because I am ABSOLUTELY giddy and I'm really trying to learn to reign in my ability to be condescending. Because, I've gotten my feelings hurt quite often walking around dropping knowledge on the random. But…I'm definitely laughing at that good spirited dig into my statements. It's a blanket statement because I thought it was obvious people are taking on qualities and developments of the western world. If you're comfortable with it, I could use YOU as my example.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          me as an example….hmmmm let me see, I'm plugged into the internet-a Western contraption, I'm using a laptop-A western contraption…..oooh I could go on and on, about all the Western technological advancement I have!!!

          I'm VERY comfortable, just so you know if you go outside of respectable bounds, I BITE! I thought I might give you a head start, see para. 1

          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          It's been really great talking with you. I think if the conversation progresses you're going to become completely callous and anything I try to explain to you is going to become offensive so, thank you for the suggested read. I look forward to the foreign perspective. man, if you wanna compare bite sizes. lol. *reels it in* lol. Just lol. I feel challenged. I'm trying to be civilized. I'm going to be civilized. I enjoyed the back and forth. Now you're just intentionally starting to insult me and that's not a form of communication I'm interested in, nor do I feel like out insulting you to prove a point. But again, I thoroughly enjoyed our previous conversation, thank you.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          I did NOT insult you! I do NOT engage in underhanded insults. If I'm going to be insulting, I'm forthright with it-of which I don't, as I do not engage in uncivil banter online! The head start I gave you was in jest, how you found that insulting is beyond me. But oh well,it was good while it lasted!! :)

          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          …..*is secretely reflecting on EVERY conversation I've ever had with people in this country and the excessive backlash from controversial statements*

          Are you absolutely positive you won't be offended? I'm actually laughing good spirited chuckles, I wasn't insulted per se but I definitely feel the digs at my intelligence. I'm trying to bite my tongue because it gets me in trouble here but I'm cool talking if you are. I just don't wanna have it devolve into insults like it does over here.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          I believe in having dialogue with differences, of course R.E.S.P.E.C.T. is the common denominator…..

          If I'm offended I'll just tell you I am…So, girrrrl go on right ahead and say it!!! :)

          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          *cautious look*

          Okay. But if you get offended just let me know and I'll back off. But. As I was saying about people wanting to be like us, I didn't mean to imply we're perfect and powerful and awesome and we have every right to police the entire world. I meant, certain aspects of our lifestyle are allruing to underdeveloped nations so we help out. Case in point. You. (this is where I thought it might be offensive) By your own admission you're using a laptop. Western. You're commenting on an American site. Western. You're even exhibiting American mannerisms! Clearly, that's what I meant. It can also be upscaled thorugh the people like you and to foreign governments who want democracy BECAUSE of how common this is. Assimilation = conversion = conflict = intervention in international affairs.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          Yes, democracy is a common in the West, but don't for a second forget that we existed in democracy before we were brutally raped by the West through colonization. It is to our detriment that we started to assimilate, and thereby lost our autonomy!

          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Africa was a democracy? I mean I know certain civilizations were. To me. Rome isn't Africa. Civilization isn't Africa. When I hear Africa I immediately think of pastures and meadows and animals and simple, hard working lifstyles. Civilizations in Africa had democracy and Colonization stepped into those simple lifestyles…and I think it's absolutely deplorable. It's beautiful to me, and it almost hurts to the point of tears. lol. I used to want to go there but now everyone just laughs at me and tells me it isn't the way I see it. Like Africa is completely colonized or well on its way to being modernized. lol. I was naive enough to believe I could be the person to preserve the true African culture and way of life. But. I don't know. I don't even think. I don't think people like that see the beauty in themselves anymore. It's a losing battle. There's not even a point to me even doing cultural studies that way.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          Exactly what is the true African culture and way of life?! I don't understand this statement.

          We have preserved our culture and cultural ideals. I do not see why you felt burdened to do so… Conversely we have been influenced by the West, and in the process integrated some Western ideals. However, when I hear people arguing about civilization and what it means, I just smh. Why? Because you are looking at it, from a Western eye, myopic at best. Is living in a house made from concrete material such as stone, bricks etc, translate to civilization and my people, who live in houses made from cow dung, mean that they are uncivilized?!

          Civilization is a social ideal/construct that needs to be de-constructed because it assumes that cultures that are not at par with Western advancement, are in essence primitive.

          Cultural studies are not for you to adopt, they are for you to learn. I sincerely do not understand which battle is this you are battling? Please expatiate. Thanks much.

          In regards to your African sojourn, the truth of the matter is that Africa as presented to you, by the media is on two extremes, romanticized and downtrodden. The media lacks a projection in balancing the truth about Africa. I suggest, you reconsider coming to the motherland, you are missing out on a lot of culture, beauty and splendor.
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Um. I don't really see where we're differentiating in opinion. We're essentially saying the same thing. True African culture to me is what you described as it's primitive culture, which is beautiful to me and I feel the need to check my country in the way this is presented to people and in the way we deal with civilized governments. Cultural studies is me living in Africa in the primitive form of Africa and learning from truly experiencing the culture I'm representing. The thing is, from the political perspective in America. I'm almost. Hated. I don't even think. I just gave up on it because I don't think people in America would support it and I don't have the emotional fortitude to take it on. Like. I legit, end up crying in debates because it's such a personal belief to me and having my opinions attacked is the equivalent of hearing "Africa is worthless" I can't take on the personal attacks or disparagement but I still feel the need to look at the world and go…but it's beautiful! I think. Someone needs to represent other cultures in their true essence to the American government yet still be conscious of American reasoning.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          I don't like your use of primitive, to define African culture. Nope, no ma''m!

          I hear what you are saying, but your delivery is so eh, disturbing.

          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          I didn't say it was primitive. I said it was beautiful. My use of primitive was not meant to be offensive I literally meant, building a house of dung is primitive. As in, akin or exactly how humanity originated. Origin of human. Beautiful. Not primitive as in completely inferior to modern society. "Primitive" is easier to say than "African culture derived from the origin of humanity". But hey. As long as my sentiments were conveyed I can deal with having to work on my word choice.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          "I literally meant, building a house of dung is primitive."

          Primitive to who?! There is NOTHING primitive about it.This IS insulting to the Maasai people. VERY. I am not going to argue my point of using the term primitive! You've stated your point, I get the gist of what you are saying, but eh, nope that use of primitive is rubbing me off the wrong way.
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

  • http://twitter.com/inomallday Shamira

    Great post as per usual. The thing about America and democracy is that we only like democracy as we see fit. So if its not secular with Christian leanings it's unacceptable. Any democratic country that's not founded on a judeo-christian system is unfathomable – even though democracy has absolutely nothing to do with that. Democracy is not slapping on an adapted version of the US Constitution and selecting a US govt-approved leader.Its the voice of the people, and if the majority want an Islamic government, so be it. That said, reports are coming out that the cause of this "runoff" is still very fear induced and that a lot of the motivators behind the so-called "Arab Spring" weren't able to organize a movement to get out and vote — but that's an entirely different issue. If a wholly elected population want to elect a leader with strong religious ties, its their right to do so. (On a sidenote, I already knew this election was going to go all the way left when they appointed an interim military rule. When was the last time you ever saw that go well??? But I digress…).

    What kills me is that individuals in politics and society refuse to start to see what is increasingly true in my eyes – that the Constitution, while an admirable framework for government and a testament to some of the great minds of this country, is NOT a holy text. Things will be outdated, and things need to change to reflect the needs of the 21st century. But we insist on using rules applied to address the problems of the 18th century to dictate our actions today like that makes a whole lot of sense…the framework is sound, but the small intricacies clearly need reworking. I don't know why our government can't admit that.

    When it comes to separation of Church and state, people accross the board love to use that phrase when it helps them achieve whatever they want. So, when Catholic schools don't want the federal government banning them from daily prayer, it's separation of church and state. But when gay's want to adopt, we're in a god-fearing society. It's very pitiful, really. The same way that Conservative leaders cite freedom of speech when they use hate-rhetoric against Islam but would ship Muslim-American straight to Guantanamo bay if they so much as said a word in disagreement against "our great nation". Hypocrisy at its finest. The Constitution can be literally applied when its convenient, but when it doesn't fit their end game, it can be "broadly interpreted" to see the Founder's "true intent." (This is also how I feel about some Christians' interpretation of the Bible, but there's no need to go there today.).

    But on the whole, I don't think Christians are intolerant. I think misguided ones are — but across the board, all of the "big three" religions preach tolerance and respect, even if you think that a person is not on the right path. It's just that the people that chant the loudest are the ones that never learned that lesson.

    **my apologies in advance for horrible typos and absurd grammar errors**
    My recent post inomallday: LMAO at the breakfast club going in on hot 97

    • Alakaii Hawaii

      I was with you the whole way through up until you said we need to ratify and ammend the Constitution to fit modern society. I can sorta see it. I think the Constitutio — as I've hand written it, translated it, and retyped the entire document….THREE times — is one of the most upstanding documents I've ever had the pleasure to read. I don't think it needs to change I think it needs to be re-worded for lesser minded individuals to readily understand. I also think there needs to be slight pressure on our people to adhere to the morality of Christianity.

      • http://twitter.com/inomallday Shamira

        I agree that the Constitution is a wonderful document. That doesn't mean that it's sorely lacking in certain areas to cater to today's issues. The broad principled framework still holds, but a lot of the reasoning behind some of the amendments are outdated, and with the divisive nature of our legislative government at this point, it's nearly impossible to make any substantive changes as needed. We can respect the document for what it is while still admitting that changes need to be made. People act like its the word of God and can never be tampered with.
        My recent post inomallday: LMAO at the breakfast club going in on hot 97

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Hm. I think of it as, modern issues are just core issues blown out of proportion and people don't want to adhere to a simple solution that can be found in the Constitution. They want it complicated. It isn't complicated. This is a Christian nation. We should abide to Christianity. That would absolutely make the Constituion adequate, even if it's broad. It being broad just means hundreds of millions of people can fit under it but I do agree that modern society in no way can do something that radical so it would suffice to change the Constitution. Do you think that's a better solution to maybe reigning in the nation to ensure it's customs etc. are more akin to the teachings of Christinaity?

        • http://twitter.com/inomallday Shamira

          I don't think we should be forced to adhere to the teachings of Christianity. General moral teachings, yes, but I feel like you can apply those concepts without associating that with any specific religious construct. Now, I'm not naive – I realize that we do it regardless. That doesn't mean it doesn't bother me though. We can't chose to abide by purely Christian teachings and then take issue when other countries do the same with their respective religions.

          On face value, I would agree with your take on modern issues in the Constitution – but that's only if we as a nation choose to accept and adopt a broad interpretation of the Constitution, a mindframe we only adopt when its convenient. At its root everything does in fact come down to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness — but then why do some things that fall under that umbrella get rejected under the notion that it's un-Christian? That makes no discernible sense to me. You even see it with our Supreme Ct system – the broad v narrow interpretation when it comes to hot-button issues forces us to evaluate issues that should not even be up for debate. Like, we're debating DOMA? Really? The Constitution and the BIble should not hold equal weight in government. If anything, Christianity preaches love, tolerance, and acceptance – and we should work to hold up those tenets over anything else -instead of choosing to dictate what is and isn't accepted in society.

          I think ultimately we should establish that the Articles hold more weight than a lot of the Amendments. That is where most of the broadly establish principles that created our foundation of government lie. I'm not trying to downplay the significance of the BIll of Rights, etc. (although I do think that the right to bear arms is highly unnecessary in present-day) , but I don't think we get to conveniently pick and choose when the Constitution works for us and our Christian beliefs.
          My recent post inomallday: LMAO at the breakfast club going in on hot 97

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          General moral teachings: I don't think our nation's leaders choose that path because general morals are not based in anything. I think, even though Christianity is a relatively new religion, it's the one we were founded on. I can understand that making general morals and adhering to them and having them taught is acceptable because of, modern society. A lot of different belief systems going on. I can agree that outside of my personal beliefs. I'm Christian. I've lived my life as a Christian. That…is almost blashphemy though I seperate personal feelings on that from…that is the sheer reality of the world we live in today. So, I agree with you. Not on a personal level….on a societal, logical, fact and reason level.

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          "At its root everything does in fact come down to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness — but then why do some things that fall under that umbrella get rejected under the notion that it's un-Christian?"

          I think once modern problems are essentially looked at from the core and applied to the constitution, things under the umbrella are rejected because after the fact of abiding to the Constitution, it has to secondarily adhere to Christianity. Because that is out founding religion. And if it doesn't. It's rejected. So, something can be completely constitutional but then not be Christian and our leaders have a hard time aggreeing on "should we adhere to Christianity" or should we "adapt our stance".

          Which is why we have seperation of church and state. The Constitution is the law of human rights. Christianity is the morality decided for this nation to abide by. It is not the law. It's our moral compass.

    • http://learninglover.com/blog AfterMath

      I don't think the problem is that we're looking for a "Christian" democracy. We have an ally in Turkey that's an democracy where the majority of the population is Islam. But they do have things in place to limit what Muslims can do to Christians and other religions.
      My recent post My Life (as a Number)

      • http://twitter.com/inomallday Shamira

        we tolerate turkey because its more secular than most. yes, its mostly muslim, but they don't generally use muslim law to dictate things. Which is highly hypocritical, because a lot of our leaders want us to follow so-called "Christian ethics." As "isolationist" as Muslim countries are of other religions, so are we. I don't think that we have a right to dictate how a country decides to organize their government as long as they have the true support of their people. It's citizen's rights, not American's rights.
        My recent post inomallday: LMAO at the breakfast club going in on hot 97

    • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

      "the Constitution, while an admirable framework for government and a testament to some of the great minds of this country, is NOT a holy text. Things will be outdated, and things need to change to reflect the needs of the 21st century. But we insist on using rules applied to address the problems of the 18th century to dictate our actions today like that makes a whole lot of sense…the framework is sound, but the small intricacies clearly need reworking. I don't know why our government can't admit that."

      you already know i agree with you on current interpretation of the constitution.
      My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

  • LetsLove

    Great post & comments above.

    Religion and tolerance often bring up contradictory thoughts… on one hand perhaps the very nature of religion requires a lack of tolerance since tolerance might be construed as weak faith. Maybe both types are needed in the body, to serve different purposes. I believe it is, in most cases, actually stronger in faith to trust God to deal with whatever is opposing his ways that you have no control over yourself. Other more radical believers might deem that as dead faith – faith without works. *Shrug* Guess you have to know your role.

    As for Americas role in Egypts affairs.. I am not sure I understand what is truly at stake. I mean, I understand the need for intervention when the worlds order is threatened… resources are involved… etc. I guess I don't know enough to be able to understand why this is an International issue…?

    • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

      "on one hand perhaps the very nature of religion requires a lack of tolerance since tolerance might be construed as weak faith."

      perhaps thats why i don't consider myself religious but spiritual. i seek understanding, now reward. i respect anyone religion that believes in a higher being than themselves. i may not agree with what they believe in but i respect them as i would expect them to respect my beliefs.
      My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

    • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

      @ Let's Love,

      There is a lot at stake for America's intervening role. Please read the entirety of this article to gain a better understanding. America is very STRATEGIC in its support role. I applaud it, on that end, but despise it at the same time, and love it at other times.
      http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/50553/wikileaks-u

      My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

  • cynicaloptmst81

    Do you believe in separation of church and state? Yes.

    Do you think Christians are not as tolerant as they could be towards other religions? I think all religions have a sect of folks who are more orthodox/extreme. I don't limit this to Christianity at all.

    How do you feel about the external pressure on Egyptian elections? I think there is money in war. War is business…folks are always looking for another battle/ways to make money.

  • Uncle Hugh, BP

    "Do you believe in separation of church and state?"

    Yes. Although there isn't one in the Constitution (at least not the way most people interpret it), it should be.

    "Do you think Christians are not as tolerant as they could be towards other religions?"

    Yes, but that applies to every religion, creed and ideology. The concept of tolerance arose in Christian society. Obviously not all Christians bought into it.

    "How do you feel about the external pressure on Egyptian elections?"

    Let Egypt do what Egypt thinks is best for them. You would think that given how many times the US intervened in foreign affairs and things turn out for the worse, we would have learned our lesson by now. You would also think the Tea Party types With their Founding Father fetishes would have more respect for Washington's principle of non-interventionism or the Monroe Doctrine.

  • Alakaii Hawaii

    "Although there isn't one in the Constitution (at least not the way most people interpret it)"

    I've done quite a bit with the Constitution even though it's been about a year and JUST last night I threw all my work and stuff out, clearly assuming it was all for nothing, I vaguely remember it's sentiment/disposition of seperation. Care to quote and expound? I'm pretty sure it succintly states a seperation of church and state.

    "You would also think the Tea Party types With their Founding Father fetishes would have more respect for Washington's principle of non-interventionism or the Monroe Doctrine. "

    This. Not even hating on the Tea Party but just the general, abiding to core things set out for nation.

    • Uncle Hugh, BP

      Missed this buried in all the comments.

      Alakaii Hawaii: "Care to quote and expound? I'm pretty sure it succintly states a seperation of church and state."

      The Constitution states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof". That specifically refers to 1. Congress only, 2. making laws, and 3. limiting people from "exercising" their religion. Somehow that has been successfully transformed into "don't you dare have anything that could even tangentially be related to Christianity connected to government, or give a single penny to an organization that might have Christian ties".

      One would search in vain to find the words "separation of church and state" in the Constitution.

      • http://www.barronnetwork.com CHeeKZ

        Its called interpretation my good man. That interpretation has been one of the greatest accomplishments in the world's history.
        My recent post If Bosh Returns Tonight………Does He Upset The Apple Cart?

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          I don't disagree with you at all, there should be a separation of church and state. It's just not in the Constitution. If someone gets that from the establishment clause, then that's not just misinterpretation, it's getting it completely wrong.

          But that's why it's called a living document I guess, to fit with the times.

  • Alakaii Hawaii

    ………I am totally talking too much. #geekstatus

    Needless to say, good post Tunde!

    • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

      I'm reading……

      Exhaust it all!
      My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

      • Alakaii Hawaii

        I'm glad someone finally is. A lot of this stuff is bringing up how I was in my childhood. I was ALWAYS reading up on mythology and different cultures and for majority of my adolescence I had a fascination with Africa, Atlantis and Rome. lol oh those days were awesome. I sorta grew out of it. Not completely. I grew up. Got interested in politics and I started realizing the world was not as pure as I saw it and those things I adored aren't necessarily reality anymore. And. I like thinking Africa is a fertile land with beautiful animals running around I don't quite want to know it isn't the way I saw it. It's like telling a child there's no such thing as Christmas. But. I get really excited when I have the opportunity to learn cultural things and perspective in a positive forum even though I'd much rather just be in Africa thinking lions are like big house cats, smh.

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          ….because I totally would not just walk up to a lion and think if I understood it's primal instincts and stuff I could essentially just lay about in an African plain and soak up the beauty without intruding. I mean. I'm completely not that naive. It's not like. I'd actually try that. In the midst of my first hand cultural studies. I'm just saying. It's nice to talk about stuff like that in a more adult like manner and still have that sorta blinder on as a child would. The political-ness (lol) of this article makes me really giddy and wanna rehash my old independent studies. I miss it. Today's post was awesome.

        • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

          loooollll!!! you kray, or have potential to be.
          My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Kray?

  • YeahDotDotDot

    US-

    I've always felt the same way. The other day, someone grilled me about my pov on the endorsement of same sex marriage and I told him, "I do not think I should tell anyone they cannot do what makes them happy if they are not causing harm to someone else." He then said I have a point, but he still doesn't like it. Well, that's fine for him, but I never asked him and don't understand why it's so important to him. Hmm… Whether you like it or not, the move is smart on Obama's part. He can endorse same-sex marriage and say he would never make it a federal issue. And HE is a devoted husband to HIS WIFE. Obama is winning. Anyway…

    Intolerance-

    Declaring a religion/belief and going to war with anyone who has different beliefs does not accomplish anything. Furthermore, it is my belief that close-mindedness and intolerance cause more harm than good in the world. Some atheists are intolerant too. Dubya declared himself a Christian and he was a bad pres. LetsLove brought up a good point-some see tolerance as weakness of faith. I believe some people do. I'm not one of them.

    Egypt-

    The Egyptians need to handle their own affairs. The country cannot do a 180 in such a short period of time. Patience is required. I found it interesting that in the polls, 50.6% of all voting Egyptians chose the other candidates rather than choosing Mursi or Shafiq. That is the problem. A little more than half the country voted against Mursi and Shafiq. Traditional democracy is flawed in that sense. With Mursi being a key leader in the Muslim Brotherhood and Shafiq known for working in the Mubarak regime, I suspect they are the "devils they know" to the other 49.4%. After 30 years of the same leader, change will not happen overnight.

    • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

      i feel like there was a lot of funny business going on with the election in egypt but i also feel like its not our place to meddle in their affairs. while we built our "democracy" other more developed countries didn't step in and say "this is how you should do it". we were allowed to make mistakes and learn along the way. other countries should be afforded the same opportunities.
      My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

  • Abu Husain

    I firmly believe in the separation of church and state. I mean, we see how well do theocracies have work in the past and how well they are doing today to ensure freedom and equality for all (sarcasm). The founding fathers had it right when it came to that.

    As for Christianity being more intolerant of other faiths than other religions, I don’t think that is true. I myself have been threatened with death for being an apostate and this is something that you do not have to worry about any christian country. I will add though that the only reason you don’t see more crazy stuff from the Christians is because they don’t actually do everything that is mentioned in the Bible (death for apostasy, sex slaves, etc). You can have protests where you burn the flag and espouse tons of hateful rhetoric, but chances are you won’t get stoned by an angry mob for it.

  • gemmieboo

    i dont think Christians are more religiously intolerant than other believers. i think its American entitlement that makes American Christians come off so righteous and holier than thou.

    IMO, the problem with church and state – esp in this country but probably others as well – is not that ppl feel compelled to rule a nation with a moral foundation but that while religious laws and doctrine are very concrete, people's beliefs and faith are not. Christianity has many different denominations that don't all adhere to the same interpretation of the Bible (how this country came to be founded in the 1st place). and from the Bible, people pick and choose which laws to follow, which laws to ignore. so in the end, governing a nation based on Biblical principles is not about having a "righteous" Christian nation, but using certain principles for the gain of those in power (slavery, anyone?). Islamic countries have similar conflicts of "interpretation" with the Shiites and Sunnis, for example.

    in the end, all governance is about POWER and has [practically] nothing to do with morality. as it should be, because democracy is supposed to put the power to choose and govern in the PEOPLE's hands. if a country is to be ruled by religious doctrine or divine ordinance, it would be a theocracy. *shrug*
    My recent post My God vs. My Country

    • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

      *starts a slow clap*

      "and from the Bible, people pick and choose which laws to follow, which laws to ignore."

      this is my problem with a lot of Christians. don't judge me based on the bible while ignoring your sins because its convenient. my parents were famous for doing that but i have to admit that they've gotten a lot better.
      My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

      • Alakaii Hawaii

        =

        the foundation of my foreign policy.

        Though, personally, I sorta dropped the ball on adhering to Christian teachings. I'm not a radical. My core everything though was as close to the Bible as I could get it and I acknowledge the mistakes I made over the course of my lifetime but I still truly believe, America needs to do so as well before attempting to intermingle on the global scale. Like…let us be an ACTUAL Christian nation before we start trying to convert people from THEIR obviously religious societies. I think it would help in international affairs?

        • gemmieboo

          what do we need to be a Christian nation for???? we arent. and never have been. our country is very diverse in terms of faith beliefs. a democracy allows for laws of the land to change as the people who inhabit it see fit. and many of those ppl currently are NOT Christian believers.
          My recent post My God vs. My Country

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          That's exactly what I'm getting at. We're founded as a Christian nation but our modern society is in no way shape or form Christian. My question is this. Do you think it's better or even possible to start teaching generations of people to become more Christian, as it's our founding religion? Or do you think it's better to look at modern society and come up with a general belief system based on the many and abundant variations of religions and morals in this country?

          Basically, should America become more and more Christian because that's our foundation….or do you think our foundation AS Christian needs to be adjusted?

        • gemmieboo

          no. we are NOT founded as a Christian nation. the USA was established as a secular state. the 1st amendment forbids religious governance.

          so i think this particular discussion is moot.
          My recent post My God vs. My Country

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Tis is the EXACT essence of seperation of church and state. America as founded by the Constitution, is secular, because all the Constitution is, is a general moral compass of human rights.

          Our ACTUAL moral compass, is Christianity. Whether or not we were founded as a Christian nation is indeed a mute point and that is not what I'm discussing or even willing to discuss. Clearly, there's seperation between the two.

          What I'M asking about is, should America conform generations to Christianity or should America make a general moral compass based on a watered down, morally bankrupt modern society? I don't believe we can safely interact on the global level if we are based in general teachings hich is why I think we declare ourselves a Christian nation. We have to identify our actions with a religion to have credence and then foreign nations call us on not actually adhering to Christianity.

        • gemmieboo

          i dont really understand the basis of your question. our moral compass isnt necessarily exclusive to Christian beliefs. esp since the 3 major religions – Judaism, Christianity, AND Islam – share many similar morals and beliefs. because obviously theyre all rooted in the same place – Abraham.

          sure, presumably this country was founded on Christian principles since thats the religion that our founders grew up in. but to suggest that this country needs to get back to its Christian roots or impose Christianity on other nations is ludicrous. religious wars being waged will only further alienate us from many allies and enemies alike.

          the problem isnt that America lacks morals or a moral compass. its that we lack moral integrity and compassion. anybody can be a Christian believer, but that doesnt mean they operate in their faith or their beliefs. you can believe in one thing and act in another.

          while i dont completely understand your question, i dont think rooting ourselves in any religion will help us be a better nation. period.
          My recent post My God vs. My Country

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Yay! That sorta clarifies things for me. Hm. So.

          Hm. Actually I kinda feel everything you've said. I just wanted a little clarity.

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          I never told anyone and I never put any action or anything towards this thought, but, I always believed across the thousand and thousands of years of human history…perhaps everyone religion is absolutely true. At least those older, almost ancient ones. I thought maybe there's just different religions because each ones marks a different timeframe in human history or a different…maybe like an absolute truth of humanity? Maybe like. I don't know how to explain it. I thought there's absolute truth in all the major religions so we just need to adust the way we deal with one another, especially America. And I thought the best way to do so was to conform our nation to Christianity. But as you said it's moral integrity and compassion and that's exactly how I feel.

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          I guess my question is where should our morals for our moral integrity come from if not Christianity? How do we go about declaring what our morals are based on when it comes to modern affairs. Because, I think. If. I think if foreign nations are religious…but we're based in modern secularism. Foreign affairs will always be messy. So I think if we conform to Christianity, foreign affairs will become easier if we learn from older religious societies, if that makes sense.

        • gemmieboo

          guess my question is where should our morals for our moral integrity come from if not Christianity?

          Christians arent the only ones with morals or moral integrity. i would say most widely practiced religions have morals that very much align with each other. be a good person. help those who need help. honor your god, yourself, your family, and your neighbors. etc.

          this whole thinking that Christians are morally superior to all others is part of the problem even within our own country.

          trying to adhere to any particular religion isnt going to make you more moral or righteous. running a DEMOCRATIC nation that is INSPIRED by religious beliefs is fine as long as that is what the people want. period point blank.
          My recent post My God vs. My Country

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Blah. My comments aren't showing up but you got it AND you answered my question.

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          I'm asking because I'm curious as to the understanding people believe our immorality and refusal to adhere to Christian teachings has on foreign affairs. Like, if we're interacting with OBVIOUSLY primitive cultures or religious societies, it's my belief we have to adhere to either general morals or we have to ACTUALLY adapt Christianity as a nation. I'm just asking if you think it's better to have general morals for the sake of adapting to modern American society, or if you think because of foreign affairs it's better to conform to Christianity. I'm not trying to debate or discuss a small semantics or anything but *shrug* I can let it go I was just curious is all. I wanted to hear from someone because I thought about a possible career in politics and I just wanted to know what I'd be asked to support as a politician. It was more personal curiosity than discussion.

        • MadScientist7

          ummm…. America wasn't founded on Christianity. matter of fact some of earliest settlers came here to get away from religious persecution.

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Hm. I haven't studied history or religion in a few years but I'm fairly certain America was proclaimed a Christian nation. I do believe they fled persecution and established their own religion, after much war and uncertainty and etc. etc. Christianity became the decided religion. Which is why I say it was founded on Christianity. But whether or not it actually went down that way isn't as important as you and everyone else involved in this discussion knowing Christianity is in fact, the religion America identifies itself by. And thus, my questions still stand. But like I said, I can let go my curiosity go I was just interested to see what other people thought about the best way to correct our moral compass.

        • lara

          sweetie, you need to go back and read your history books

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          No. I think I'd rather trust my instinct and have people stop pretending they don't know what I'm talking about. But. Thanks for your irrelevent input.

          Unless you've read YOURS recently and can refute that we were indeed, proclaimed a majority Christian nation after much conflict.

        • http://www.barronnetwork.com CHeeKZ

          The Treaty of Tripoli actually states we are NOT nor have ever been a Christian nation.

          We are founded on the opposite of ONE religion, but liberty, the freedom to choose your religion
          My recent post If Bosh Returns Tonight………Does He Upset The Apple Cart?

        • YeahDotDotDot

          "Like…let us be an ACTUAL Christian nation before we start trying to convert people from THEIR obviously religious societies."

          That is hilarious.

  • Lioness Rising

    great post and I agree with what some people are saying.

    Do you believe in separation of church and state?
    yes but it doesn't exist in practice in America…

    Do you think Christians are not as tolerant as they could be towards other religions?
    Yep!

    How do you feel about the external pressure on Egyptian elections?

    My college roommate is in Egypt for a year program and blogging about it. I hope and pray the Egypt will be left alone. I think they have done a really job so far in terms of banding together to overthrow the government and them keeping some level of peace in the country for more than a year since.

    Some random thoughts:
    I will just say that Democracy isn't always the best form of government for every country. When Jamaica became independent in 1962, Michael Manley tried a socialist state. The US shut that down quick and I believe it has hurt the country.

    In terms of US interventions, as former struggling countries come into their own, the are stepping outside of the US shadow. At the Summit of the Americas, everyone was so busy talking about the secret service scandal that most didn't realize the US was virtually ignored at the meeting. Latin America countries who were invaded and bullied by the US in the past have had enough and they have the resources to stand on their own. They told the US that unless Cuba can participate, there will not be another Summit. Apparently they are now forming a separate org that will replace the OAS and not include US or Canada. These are some of the ways that US foreign policy is coming back to bite them.

    My recent post Music Review: Big K.R.I.T

    • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com MadScientist7

      mariela castro, the niece of fidel castro and daughter of president raúl castro was here in the united states on a panel for rights of same sex marriages. that alone says how far cuba has come as a country. she also endorsed barack obama in his reelection bid. personally i feel that the trade embargo didn't work. now its time to move on to new alternatives.

      ". These are some of the ways that US foreign policy is coming back to bite them."

      this is happening in a lot of countries.

      • Lioness Rising

        exactly, there is no reason in my mind to keep the embargo besides the fact that the Florida Cubans are so against it that ending the embargo would be a political blow for votes, which is why Presidents (including Obama) don't want to touch it…and so things stay the same. There could be hope during Obama's second term, who knows.
        My recent post Music Review: Big K.R.I.T

  • http://twitter.com/Amaris_Acosta @Amaris_Acosta

    There was a time in my life when I was firmly against sep[aration of church & state…
    Then I turned 10, and realized there was an entire world outside of my door.
    I think a lot of Americans just need to grow up and realize that they are not the only industrialized democratic country on earth, & their way isn't the ONLY way. I get really tired of the "greatest country in the world" convos.
    As a matter of fact while we're at it, Africa is a continent. Thanks.

    • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

      don't get me started on ppl who think africa is a country and nigeria, ghana and tanzania for example are states. smh
      My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

    • lara

      I am always a little annoyed when people refer to Africa in a monolithic tone.

  • Musa

    As a Muslim, we do not believe in separation of Isam and the state,This is simply a way for people who have less than good moral ideas to sneak in their ways of living. One who adheres to the laws of Allah May He be Exalted and praised know full well that anything outside of what he allows is bound to have negative consequences. For example, let’s take a Muslim country who adheres to the Noble Quran and the way of the Noble Apostle Muhammad(peace and blessings be upon him), Allah says to dress modestly and keep away from making a display of your body. The Christian or other non muslim says this to be strict, and outdated or whatever excuse they may have, but only in non muslim countries can you find adult men wearing dresses, heels and blonde wigs. This is deviance that does not benefit society in ANY WAY, it only serves the people to further foolishness until the point of no return(much like here in the U.S). Upholding the commands of Allah is essential to a peaceful and honorable existence. It demands justice and fairness, no 20 year jail sentence for a woman who tries to defend herself from her abusive husband like in Florida.

    The moment one replaces the law of Allah for man made laws, it opens every way for oppression, murder, rape, racism, deceit, abuse of resources, homosexuality, etc.

    As far as Christians being intolerant to other religions, I would say Afro American Christians are, and its a strange thing considering the overwhelming majority of them have very little knowledge of their own religion and most have never read the Bible in its entirety.

    The pressure on Egypt is the same of every Muslim country who are on the verge of placing REAL MUSLIM LEADERS in power versus these puppets placed in by the U.S, England and France.

    • MadScientist7

      "but only in non muslim countries can you find adult men wearing dresses, heels and blonde wigs. This is deviance that does not benefit society in ANY WAY.."

      i don't know that much about the Quran and its principles but i do know that your comment is laced with a lot of judgement and blanket statements. the part i quoted has nothing to do with what religion dominates a country and more about freedom to be who you are. if a man feels it within himself to wear a dress who am i to tell him not to? this is why America has many freedoms a lot of other countries lack. separation of church and state. i guess you proved my point.

      "I would say Afro American Christians are, and its a strange thing considering the overwhelming majority of them have very little knowledge of their own religion and most have never read the Bible in its entirety."

      another blanket statement. white Christians can be some of the most judgemental people ever. i guess you've never been around the bible belt in the south? matter of fact Christians now are attempting to block the building of mosque in Murfreesboro, TN. guess what? they're mostly white.

      • Alakaii Hawaii

        Hey woah! I don't think he was being blanketed or judgemental. I think he's simply stating a conceptual truth that's a little difficult to grasp sometimes as an American. I'm sure what he's saying is that, that sort of behavior derives from the fact that as a society we don't actually conform to Christianity. It's "blanketed" because across a sweeping view of our nation it's absolutely truthful.

        • Musa

          its good to know Im not the only one living in Reality. Telling the truth is NOT JUDGING.

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          "I don't think he was being blanketed or judgemental. "

          that's fine. you can think that. i still think its judgmental to say that a group of people contributes nothing to society. matter of fact i would say that its homophobic.
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Well, I mean. Lets discuss it then. What exactly DO homosexuals contribute to society, aside from obvious entertainment? And dare I say HIV? A lot of people blame that epidemic on homosexuality. So in a way he kind of has a point. If people adhered to Christian principles there wouldn't be any epidemic. And if people were held accountable fo being homosexual in religious positions than more religious nations would prefer interacting with us. I'm in no way saying lets blow it out of proportion and wage war on all homosexuals, I absolutely don't condone something that radical but I am saying, there's basis for saying the effects of straying from our religion have diar consequences on the state of the nation….and the immoral state of the nation is why religious ones have such a problem with us meddling in the first place.

          IJS, America DOES kinda cast stones…

          it might not be a bad idea to suggest Americans behave a little less outrageous and blatantly offensive to other cultures, thinking it's okay to attack them for not liking…how we blatantly offend them.

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          just like musa. i'm done discussing this issue with you as well. i can't have an intelligent conversation with close-minded individuals. good day sir or madam.
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          I asked you a question about your beliefs opening the discussion to your point of view? How am I close minded? But I guess if you don't wanna talk about it anymore that's cool. I was just trying to understand both sides and where you're coming from as well.

        • Musa

          @ Hawaii, dont worry, this happens all the time. Whenever someone is hit with the truth and they run out of typical excuses they have to find an exit.
          Allah says that Falsehood is bound to Fail.

        • http://www.barronnetwork.com CHeeKZ

          Naw Tunde don't let that live…..

          First off Lesbian women have the lowest HIV/Aids rate you could possible have. So that just throws that argument out the window. What do homo's contribute? They are actually one of the most productive groups you can have. Gay men are more likely to have a college education, make more money in life, having more spending power and positive influence on the economy. That is why cities like SF and Philly actually target the gay population in an effort to boast their economy. They are also less likely to commit a crime.

          And just to be clear, our problems with "religious countries" are over OIL! Nothing to do with the pron I watch!
          My recent post If Bosh Returns Tonight………Does He Upset The Apple Cart?

      • Musa

        Actually im in murfreesboro tn, I replied about Black Christians because that is what I used to be, and generally this site tends to hold a black crowd.

        And as far as being judgemental, If its the truth then its the TRUTH. Would you dispute any of my statement?

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          "Would you dispute any of my statement?"

          i'm a pretty tolerant and easy going person but based on this alone:

          "The moment one replaces the law of Allah for man made laws, it opens every way for oppression, murder, rape, racism, deceit, abuse of resources, homosexuality, etc."

          yes i strongly dispute your statement.
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • Musa

          So you think this is false, based on?

    • http://twitter.com/inomallday Shamira

      As someone whos family is predominantly Muslim, it saddens me that you took so a narrowminded view on everything, considering that some of your points are valid. I'll ignore your blatantly homophobic views for the time being, seeing as how you're entitled to your beliefs. But this –> "it opens every way for oppression, murder, rape, racism, deceit, abuse of resources, homosexuality, etc." — – is absolutely unfounded, especially since most Arab countries with "true Muslim leaders" as you so call them have comparable rates of these same sins. In fact, some Muslim governments actively endorse such acts in the name of Sharia law, which is altogether deplorable. Religion can be used to uplift; it can also be used to legitimize violence. Don't be deluded into thinking that Islam is immune from such weaknesses.

      But beyond that, you are a Muslim here in the US and desire the courtesy to practice your personal beliefs in peace. Everybody else should be afforded that same right. Beyond Islamic law, one of the overarching principles is tolerance, which you seem to have a limited amount of.
      My recent post inomallday: @BrazenlyVirile ohhhh I did. Drafting a response now.

      • Musa

        A homophic is one who is Afraid of homosexuals, this Muslim here is not afraid of any wrong doer. Try again.
        And actually what you will find in Arab countries are those puppets whom I spoke about, who were placed in power by U.S governments. Most Islamic countries that follow Quran and Sunnah, have no where near crime rates as it does here, specifically take a look at murder and rape rates if you would.
        Islam is definitely Immune to weaknesses, its the fake Muslims who are placed in positions by non muslims that brings weakness. And the Law of Allah is uppermost, NOTHING is superior or above it, if you would think there is, I would certainly like for you to bring your proof.

        • gemmieboo

          Islam is definitely Immune to weaknesses, its the fake Muslims who are placed in positions by non muslims that brings weakness.

          this can be said about ANY religion/religious people.

          And the Law of Allah is uppermost, NOTHING is superior or above it, if you would think there is, I would certainly like for you to bring your proof.

          where is your PROOF that what YOU say is true?
          My recent post My God vs. My Country

      • Musa

        And its interesting you should say we desire the courtesy to practice, considering they are trying everything to prevent us from building or new Mosque, yet Bishop Walker who sexually harasses 8 women in his church in Nashville gets to continue schedule with no problems. Just your regular hypocrisy from Christians in the south.

    • Abu Husain

      We see how well joining religion and state has worked for all those Muslim countries too, huh? It’s not that the teachings are outdated, it’s the fact that they ate barbaric and cruel. Lashings, for drinking and fornication, stoning for adultry, preventing women from traveling a certain distance w/out a male guardian, the killing of apostates, treatment of non-Muslims, lack of free speech, child marriage, etc.

      There is a good reason why many of those nations of centuries behing the US and others when it comes to science, technology, human rights, etc. It’s that fact that religion is so deeply rooted in the society (in it’s most archaic and barbarous form), not the people! I know plenty of people that have come over here and thrived because this is one of the few places in the world where you can be at the very bottom of the totem pole and work your way up, where you have the freedom to be youself and express ideas that would get you killed in other places.

      When you have people still thinking that it’s cool to beat their wife, consider them “deficient in intellect and religion” as the prophet mentioned, bar them from certain jobs, that’s a problem. What you mentioned about rape, murder, etc running rampant if the Book of Allah was put to the side is nonsense. We see that women are already forced to have sex w their husbands under the threat of being cursed by Allah, homosexuals are killed (in a number of very creative ways), and people don’t get to experience the pleasure of expressing themselves freely.

      • Alakaii Hawaii

        I think it's potent. I wouldn't say barbaric.

        Lashings = spanking = we don't even really do that in America anymore.

        Stoning = crass insults = we as Americans are ALWAYS insulting and disrespecting and hurting one another.

        Prevention of travel = um. Chivalry?! I HATE going out without my best friend I feel insecure and unsafe and open to attack = something Americans can learn from.

        We maybe ahead in terms of being modern. True. Absolutely true. BUT. We've completely lost our morality because of it. Those nations have it because of devout adherence to their religion. We should respect their religions, not bully or persecute them because we don't understand the customs and concepts yet. It's like a child throwing a temper tantrum cuz they have to clean their room.

      • Musa

        Let me just say I love debate, because I enjoy exposing the ignorance and hypocrisy of people who challenge Islam.

        1.Drinking and fornication, so are you saying that lashings are more cruel than the thousands of human beings who lose their lives because of alcohol related crashes, is it more cruel than families that are broken up because of mom or dad who is an alcoholic? I think I made my point.
        2.Stoning for adultery, is this not in your bible?
        3.preventing women, its for their protection.
        4.killing of apostates, first off, their is no real apostate from Islam, if anyone claims to be a muslim and then leaves is Islam, never was a Muslim. Arab Christians like to pretend to be Muslim and convert to back to Christianity in an attempt to shake the faith of other Arab Muslims, so yes we kill you clowns who joke with our way of life.
        5.lack of free speech, im so sorry we dont allow the ku klux klan to preach hate against blacks and jews.
        6.Child marriage, we marry early to protect from fornication and adultery, the black community could especially take note considering how fornication has ripped through our communities.

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          "Let me just say I love debate, because I enjoy exposing the ignorance and hypocrisy of people who challenge Islam."

          who challenged Islam?
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • Musa

          Abu Husain and Shamira in a slick coverted way.

        • Abu Husain

          Actually im not cheistian. I would love love you, but I left it in order to think for myself. I live in yemen for several years and studied in saudi arabia for several years as well… none of this is foreign to me. I have had several people threaten me with death. don’t tell me I don’t know what the hell I’m talking about. it’s crazy how you see it as in a text when I’m simply stating facts. the profit having sex with a 9 year old girl? It’s a fact! him killing scores of jews from banu qurayzha? Fact! I am feeling great brother and father of his wife Sufiyya, forcing her to be his sex slave, and grab her her freedom on the basis that she mary him? Fact!

          GTFOH

        • Abu Husain

          Wow, talk and text sucks. what I meant to say in that im not Christian and that I used to be Musli, but I left to think for myself.

          Also, he killed the brother and father or his wife Sufiyyah during the seige on khaybar, made her his slave, and granted her freedom on the basis that she married him.

    • Alakaii Hawaii

      Musa. Correct me if I'm wrong.

      Interpretation: In Islam we do not seperate church and state because it is our absolute belief our people as a whole should adhere to the morality of our religion. If we don't we know there is consequences. In Christianity and America, with seperation of church and state, it allows for people to have looser morals based on their secular and/or sinful wants and desires.

      If that's the proper interpretation I wholly agree with it which is why my political ventures normally ended in me having hurt feelings but what I tried to commincate is that to other, more religiously founded countries as well as not to mention the sheer longevity of ancient religions such as Islam, we as a nation need to adhere to Christianity to have better dealings with such nations. I think people want to defend their right to be secular which is exactly their right yet they don't understand THEIR OWN LIFESTYLES are contributing to our conflict in other nations. If we have to interact with religious nations for resources and people don't want to because we are morally offensive, we AS A PEOPLE are the cause of international war. Being morally bankrupt.

    • Alakaii Hawaii

      Maybe it's best to pose this question to someone who isn't a Christian.

      Do you think it's better for America in regards to international affairs, to adhere to Christianity? After adhering, to learn how to interact with religious countries that have obviously ancient (in terms of lasting, traditional impact on its people) seeing as how majority of those nations are the most prosperous and abudant in natural resources?

      • Alakaii Hawaii

        Is it better for America to become traditionally Christian so that it can interact with traditionally religious nations?

        And even if we did live more traditionally Christian, when it comes to foreign affairs would it be better for us to learn from more human origin/ancestorial societies such as Islam? I think those sort of things have been around longer so clearly Islam and Muslims have a better scope of humanity seeing as how it's been in the world longer. Akin to how a 60 year old in general has more wisdom than a 15 year old listening to Soula Boy. That's not judgement. It's just simply, the absolute truth of the matter.

      • Musa

        Actually most Christians would be surprised to know that there is NOTHING we Muslims believe that the Bible does not support. Now the question is a lil tricky to answer, because the bible certainly has some noble prinicples in it, but some are absolute vile. Kind of like the lie that Prophet Lot had sex with his daughters of or that Prophet Dawud/David has killed a man to commit adultery, this is disgusting and absolutely FALSE. If Christians truly adhered to Christianity then in essence they would adhere to Islam, so it would do nothing but better its affairs. Especially if they would stop trying to take over other peoples countries and usurp their resources.

        • Alakaii Hawaii

          Thank you! That's all I was trying to see. I think there's undeniable similarities between the major religions and I think America needs to realize the people of Islam and people in Islamic nations know a little bit about…I don't know. Everything it takes to be moral and survive for thousands upon thousands of years. And that's exactly my belief. That if we as a nation adhered to the upstanding principles of the Bible and like you said in a different comment, held those people who deviate from religious behaviors accountable, we would be alright in the world.

          Man. I totally was inspired by some of the stuff you said because I realize as an American it's a little "meh" to most people that I believe in certain truths, but. I also believe if we could just admit a lot of the stuff IS true than we could really mend relationships in other nations. I think it's a good thesis for a Master's/platform/foreign policy. To UNDERSTAND other cultures and religions as opposed to being all warlike and stuff.

  • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

    The moment one replaces the law of Allah for man made laws, it opens every way for oppression, murder, rape, racism, deceit, abuse of resources, homosexuality, etc.

    Wowwwwww! Homiiiiie. In essence are you trying to tell us that the law of Allah is the be it, end all of human existence?!

    "As far as Christians being intolerant to other religions, I would say Afro American Christians are, and its a strange thing considering the overwhelming majority of them have very little knowledge of their own religion and most have never read the Bible in its entirety."

    *Blank stare*—–>Since when did you become an authority of Afro-American religious beliefs?!

    My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

    • MadScientist7

      exactly… i'm sitting here staring in disbelief at that comment.

      • Musa

        You dont have to just stare, Challenge me. Either I am telling the truth or I am lying, there is no in between, if Im mixing the truth with a lie its still a lie.

        So am I one of the truthful or am I like Eddie Long?

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          i don't particularly care for your condescending tone. don't appreciate the snooty remarks towards my pastor or the close-mindedness. my post wasn't a jab at Islam. matter of fact it was meant to explain that there is nothing wrong with either religion should you choose to follow either one. i'm actually done debating with you. asalaam alikum brother. good day.
          My recent post Take Me Back to 1953

        • Musa

          Are you saying that Bishop Walker is your pastor, AND U STILL FOLLOW HIM? This is why I speak so strongly against the mess that goes on in these churches. How do you continue to support this guy?

    • Abu Husain

      Heis simply stating what is mentioned in the Quran. If he didn’t believe that the Book of Allah should be above everything else, he would be considered a kafir. The only issue is this doesn’t help him to live peacfully with others.

      • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

        @ Abu,

        PUHLEEEEEEEEEEEZ!
        My recent post Help! Natural Hair Divas:Update, Part II

        • Abu Husain

          I didn’t say I agreed with him. I’m simply saying that he is referring to a passage from Suratun Nisa, statements from the prophet, and the consensus of the sahaba and “Ahlul Ilm”. I find it problematic as well, but he’s just sticking to the text.

    • Musa

      I became the authority on Afro-American beliefs when I sat in churches for 19 years, and never learned anything except whats the pastor favorite color, favorite dish and what kind of suits he likes to wear.
      When Pastors started having sex with their granddaughters and were still in the position. When Bishops started sleeping with young men yet still have a church. When every choir director became a homosexual, When deacons are sleeping with their wives, other men wives AND OTHER MEN. When I got tired of the pure hypocrisy and foolishness that these so-called men of God do day in and day out, while you ignorant negroes continue to sit and there and empty your pockets so he can buy a 10 million dollar jet while people are losing their homes. It was around this time I became an authority.

      • Uncle Hugh, BP

        Apparently you've been going to the wrong church/es.

        • Musa

          Well what church would you suggest?
          I have been to baptist, pentecostal, lutheran, non denominational, church of christ, etc, I saw no difference in either.

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          I'm at a non-denominational church. We have over 100 churches, and my district in the Midwest has ten. We had only one incident in my district that I'm aware of in the 25 years I attended, and that was a bishop doing something inappropriate, and he was immediately removed.

          I'm saying if all you learned was about "whats the pastor favorite color, favorite dish and what kind of suits he likes to wear", then obviously you're not in a church that was doing any kind of teaching whatsoever. I'd be fed up in a church like that too.

          I'll also add if you think all Muslims are perfect and understanding, you need to meet more Muslims.

      • http://afrikanmami.blogspot.com African Mami

        @ Musa,

        It is not fair to generalize an entire religion based on your experience. Are your concerns, legitimate-MOST DEFINITELY, are they representative of all Christians or the Afro American Christian-ABSOLUTELY NOT! Just so you know, a church is not a building or a differing Christian faction, it is where two or more people are gathered in His name! You hold very strong religious convictions, which are antagonizing!

    • Musa

      In essence are you trying to tell us that the law of Allah is the be it, end all of human existence?!

      Look into the black community, who have replaced the way of Allah for the way of the pastor,bishop, and any other fake, phony made up title(cuz yall ARE NOT following Prophet Isa Jesus), would you say that you all are successful?

      Im just saying that if the masses of black folks took on the way of life called Islam, the majority of their problems would be solved and done with almost immediatiely. And it wont take 400 some odd years.

      • lara

        I have to respectfully disagree with you. My father's side of the family is muslim and are just as corrupt as some christians you are bashing.
        Sidenote* none are American.

        • Musa

          And I wouldnt dare disagree with what happens in your FAMILY, but on a wide scale, one cannot say that things exists in mosques. Because if they were, non muslims would pull no punches in exposing it. Some Muslims are definitely jacked up, but you do NOT see the dysfuntion in communities, masjids as to their non muslim counterparts.

        • Musa

          Sidenote, I do not bash, bashing in my opinion is wreckless speech with any basis, or any words lying and exaggerating. Every black person in this forum KNOWS im telling the truth when it comes to the state of christians. They simply dont like the fact that I am exposing it.

        • lara

          No one denies Christians have issues but so do Muslims, In fact all religions have their faults, due to the common denominator being we are all human and fallible. I used my family as an example but i am aware of horror stories within Muslim communities around the world.
          * You claim you don't bash but its your tone

  • kmplx

    Do you believe in separation of church and state?
    The state should remain secular… but this would not work in America anytime this century. In places where secularism does work it usually has a homogeneous population (whether ethnic, religious, race etc) so these societal tensions rarely exist, and if they do, it's in small pockets. I'm presuming, of course.

    Do you think Christians are not as tolerant as they could be towards other religions?
    Yes, but this human response is the same in every religion… There are those people who are more open than others. Where religion has been used to gain power, this will always happen, which means it happens everywhere that people refuse to think for themselves.

    How do you feel about the external pressure on Egyptian elections?
    Think you will probably find that Mr or Ms Egyptian voter doesn't actually give a flying *bleep* what "external pressure" thinks about his/her choice of candidate. And that's all I have to say about that.

    Oh, and good post… was good to get away from the relationship naval-gazing for a while.

  • http://yellowpinkies.com Goldeelocks

    Wonderful post. Alot of Chrisitans do seem to be narrow minded towards other faiths as if it's wrong if it's not Chirsitan.
    My recent post Memorial Day Instagrams

  • http://www.aworknprogress.com Diana

    I recently attended a conversation on the separation of church and state for work and they had Reverend Dr. John Kinney (Dean of Virgina Union Theological School) on the panel. He said the problem comes in because people view God as "above" them – as in 'one nation under God.' And so they'll recreate entire systems based on this principle/ideology – so he said you'll have, "men 'over' women, rich 'over' poor, Black 'over' white ooops I mean white over Black". He continued with, "in reality God is in the midst and within us." And so while I think separation of church and state is good in theory, in reality, we all bring a piece of our beliefs and value systems into whatever we do. If people must bring religion into the conversation, I would prefer they bring the values of love, charity, compassion, and mercy instead of the doctrine or the need to keep one group down or ashamed.
    My recent post For the Love of God

  • lara

    Great Post! usually a lurker on this website, thoroughly enjoyed the post and varying opinions.
    To answer your questions.
    1. I believe in the separation of church and state,
    2. Some Christians are more tolerant than others. I find the more educated a person is about their faith, the more one can practice their tenets
    3. Egypt should be left alone, but we all know it is never that simple when ulterior motives are involved. America's track record for meddling in other countries business speaks for itself

  • Phosa

    First of all AWESOME POST!!! Very to cool to hear something International on this site, very very cool!

    1. Yup, I believe that the Church and the State should be separate. If not, then things get unnecessarily complicated, especially in countries like Nigeria, where both Islam and Christianity are fairly prominent. If religion and governance, it would become a question of which religion and to what extent and usually when that happens, its a downward spiral to a fascist or brutal regime.

    2. I think like with all religions, there are extremists in Christianity. I agree with most people in the fact that education and exposure both factor into just how aggressive one is with their religious opinions, for example crazy rednecks who believe that everyone south of the Mediterranean is going to hell as opposed to educated Islamist teachers living in the West fighting for Women's rights in Saudi Arabia.

    3. Hmmmm…I think two things factor into this. First of all, America is never. ever going to let a country where it has invested Naval Bases, couple of Air Fields, Missiles, and ridiculous amounts of money, to choose their own government. Especially when the country has a strong Islamist presence. Islam generally doesn't go down very well with America (Iraq, Iran, Palestine, Taliban-I'm just gonna stop there :p), and when it comes to a country like Egypt, with whom America has had such a strong relationship with and for such a long time, it is definitely in America's best interest to have a…."friendly" government in Egypt. Also access to the Suez Canal is very important to America and its allies in the unlikely event of war so….. yeah.

    Also, and I point this out with RIDICULOUS amounts of shame, being from Africa, if a government comes in and it messes up and it results in this big blow up and civil war, the international pressure will be on America to "sort it out". Africans have a tendency to get themselves in a heap load of trouble and then need to ask and beg for a way out, usually begging to America, because it has that whole big brother thing going on…..I mean its sad and we really should be able to take ourselves but we can't and you can't really blame the American government for wanting to prevent rather than cure. Although their track record is not the best, and its intentions not necessarily the purest, there is some logic behind it.

    ps. sorry for super long comment :D

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