How to Meet Women While Avoiding Girls and the Friend Zone

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Like a fine wine…

The other day I was having a conversation with my friend. Not surprisingly, we got to talking about women. Ok, who am I kidding? All we talked about was women. As a man, you talk about women a lot but as you get older, you talk about women differently. Being a (decent or above looking, moderately successful or above income generating) man in your late 20′s to early 30′s is a strange period. You might hit up a happening spot and there will be women in there who are interested in you. These women may range from 21 to 41. There’s no way around it, this can get complicated if you don’t know what you’re looking for. I’ll get back to this part of the discussion in a minute.

Later in the day, I was watching a Louis CK, who for the record is hilarious, comedy routine from his stand-up called ‘Chewed Up.’ I’ve included a clip from this routine where he discusses the difference between women and girls. Also, for the record, this video is not appropriate for work so if I was you, I WOULD NOT WATCH THIS VIDEO AT WORK! If you lack will power, I suggest you pull this video up on your phone, lunch break, or while wearing headphones. That’s my disclaimer for the day.

I like women. Women, women! Girls? I’m done, long time ago. Twenty-two-year old girls? God bless you. Go do a shot or whatever the f**k you do with your time. *takes imaginary shot* WOOOOO!!! That’s not me anymore. – Louis CK

During this clip, Louis declares that he is tired of girls. He’s fine dating women, but he’s gotten to a point in his life where he has moved beyond the desire to date girls. Most men know there is a clear difference between dating a woman and dating a girl. Don’t get me wrong, girls are fun but that’s generally all they are, fun. Smart men don’t pursue relationship with girls; they pursue relationships with women. As Louis notes, they don’t call it Women Gone Wild for a reason, because women don’t go wild, girls do.

There’s just a difference between girls and women and it’s not about age. There’s a reason why they call it Girls Gone Wild. You notice there’s no Women Gone Wild,  because no one would f***kin buy the Wild Women DVD. Because when girls go wild, they show their t*** to people. When women go wild, they kill men. – Louis CK

Getting back to the discussion with my cousin from earlier, we both concluded that we too are moving past dating girls. What we are looking for in our lives is a woman. There was only one problem. We weren’t sure where you go to find women and avoid girls.

I don’t like to prescribe a definite age for when a girl becomes a woman, but you know it when you see it. There is just an unspoken difference between the way a girl carries herself and the way a woman carries herself. They walk, talk, and act different. They’re built different. There’s a confidence that women have that girls lack not because they don’t have confidence, but simply because they haven’t had the life experience needed to gain the type of confidence women both effortlessly possess and exude. As a man matures, he often begins to prefer the company of women over girls. Like earlier, I won’t prescribe a definitive age for when a boy becomes a man either, but I’m sure women know the difference when they experience it too.

The thing is, unless you marry young, there is a point in everyone’s life where the places boys, men, girls, and women hang out overlap. At this point, you have to learn to decipher the subtle differences between the two or you’ll end up with a girl when you were really searching for a woman.

As I was talking to my friend – and I’m sure many of you can relate – I realized that it might be time for us to employ a different strategy if we planned to meet a woman. You see, for a number of years we’ve simply enacted the no plan plan. We’ve both met great women and fell in love, but the consistent factor between all these women – and some girls – is the randomness of the event. We weren’t out looking for a woman, we stumbled on one. In other cases, we were fortunate enough to date a girl that grew into a woman in our presence – sometimes because of us; other times in spite of us. However, we never made a calculated effort to meet a woman. Quite frankly, I’m not even sure we know where to find her.

It’s very possible that a random occurrence is one way to find a woman. It’s worked for centuries, but just because something has worked doesn’t mean it’s the best strategy. It certainly isn’t the most efficient. If it was, we’d run into women consistently  instead of by chance. Many of us know that when you want a different result you have to solve for a different problem. This reality is something we have failed to adjust to over the years. Despite all that has changed around us, which includes but is not limited to the type of woman we want in our life, we haven’t changed much about how we go about finding her. Many of us might go out less, but when looking for Mrs. [fellas, insert your last name here] we fail to change our means of pursuit, then we wonder why they don’t match our expectations. It’s obvious the playing field is changing, yet many of us have failed to implement a new game plan. Put simply, most of us don’t want to play the game forever but we still have the same style of play as when we were rookies.

**************

But, just as you fall into the depression-like grips of a quarter-life crisis and begin assuming all hope is lost, you finally meet the woman of your dreams – she’s all you ever wanted in a woman, you laugh together, you cry together (like a BAWSE, of course), she’s perfect for you in every way, except one way… What way you ask? I’m glad you asked!

As you were busy navigating the treacherous road toward meeting this woman while skillfully avoiding the temptations of girls scattered along the road of life who can only but briefly distract you with what you want but not sustain you with what you need, you find yourself banished into the abysmal darkness of…

THE FRIEND ZONE!!!

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  • Young Heaux

    It is absolutely possible to escape the friend zone. The reason why a male may find himself in the friend is because the woman (or girl) is not attracted to him. Period. Perhaps she's not physically attracted to you, or perhaps something about your personality makes her so comfortable she don't get any kind of butterflies or whatever, so she feels comfortable enough to just be your friend.

    But if you're persistent you can change that. Happens all the time. If you really truly like this woman and theres something real there–most definitely you can change her mind by being open, honest and taking charge of the situation.

    • Well Enuff

      That "solution" takes too much time and effort though. If I'm in the friend zone, I'd rather move on and try elsewhere. And if she doesn't like my appearance or personality, someone else might.

      • Lyric

        He said if u think there’s something real there u can change it by being persistent but if u don’t think that’s valuable then of course it would seem like too much time & effort of course someone else would like your appearance or personality but that’s the problem with u men is some of u don’t see value in any particular female I mean there’s always another one right?

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          Lyric: "that's the problem with u men is some of u don't see value in any particular female I mean there's always another one right?"

          Exactly, but it's not a problem at all. Why would we see value in someone who doesn't see the same value in us? Aren't women always saying, "find a man who will love you for you"? But for men, we have to try to coax those feelings out of a "particular female" instead of finding a woman to love us for us?

          As many women already said here, once you're in the friend-zone, you are likely not to come out. So what is the point of passing up several high-quality women to try to get a particular woman to see how great of a man we could be for her? In the legendary words of Michael MacDonald, we would be "trying hard to recreate what has yet to be created".

        • Young Heaux

          I was under the impression that modern dating allowed for women and men alike could see and pursue multiple prospects at a time. You makin it seem like being honest and persistent w one female friend is going to keep you away from other women. I'm not saying spend all your time courting this woman. I'm just saying be real and make an effort. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          Young Heaux: "You makin it seem like being honest and persistent w one female friend is going to keep you away from other women."

          I suppose we are talking about two different things. Your original post replied to Well Enuff's comment of not being remaining the friend zone, so I assumed you were speaking in that context. It appears you were not talking about the friend zone, but you were just making a general comment about dating.

          I agree with you that when you are dating, you should "pursue multiple prospects at a time." I also agree that "be(ing) real and mak(ing) an effort" is necessary to make a relationship work. But what I'm saying is if a woman is showing no romantic interest and friend-zones you, it doesn't make sense for a man to pursue her if she isn't being receptive. If she says, "I just want a friendship", she just said I'm not what you are looking for. In other words, she decided that she is no longer a prospect, so there is no need to pay her any more attention.

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          +1 Hugh.

        • Young Heaux

          Yeah, we are clearly talking about two different things. I was addressing dudes who do want to get out of the friend zone with a chick, and saying it's possible. Because there are plenty who actually want to grow with this hypothetical woman who is friend-ing him. If you have no desire to pursue something with a girl who sees you as a friend, then my post doesn't apply to you.

        • Young Heaux

          Also this is one if the most defeatist and depressing things overhead about dating. Someone may not like you instantly and y'all just say deuces. Wow.

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          Perhaps, but keep in mind, SHE was the one that declared defeat, not him.

        • James

          Dayyyyyyuuuuuum. Thats the way to hit em Uncle Hugh, Straight No Gotdamn Chaser!

      • paulb31

        Exactly.

    • Not Your Friend

      I completely disagree. A man persistently pursuing a woman who does not care for him will leave him frustrated. One cannot convince someone to like them. If one is not attracted to someone, their mind cannot be changed. Attraction does not work that way. Besides, who would want to be with someone who they had to force to want and like them?

      • Young Heaux

        Your opinion. But personally, my mind has changed with several guys. Most guys that I've actually been truly attracted to started out as friends whom I didn't have feelings for at the beginning.

        • Not Your Friend

          Of course it is my opinion. I though it and type it out.

        • Not Your Friend

          I thought it…

    • Lyric

      Mr Uncle Hugh bp
      Many women didn’t say that maybe one;actually it’s a popular perception among women that the best relationships start out as friendships first I mean most of us are looking for quality not meet someone & they’re like hey wanna duck?it’s not about coaxing her but maybe she has her guard up & maybe she wants to get to know u on a different level first & anyway I agree that it wouldn’t keep u from other women because as far as I’m concerned if you’re not in a committed relationship anything goes;I found homeboys attitude I responded to extremely defeatist as well & most likely just completely misreading the woman & not wanting to put any ‘time & effort’ into a little understanding;anyway I’ve never heard of a ‘friend zone’ only a friendship.sorry young heaux I didn’t know u were a girl

      • Young Heaux

        No problem, I completely agree with you.

      • Uncle Hugh, BP

        Lyric: "it's not about coaxing her but maybe she has her guard up & maybe she wants to get to know u on a different level first…"

        The issue here might be semantics. By "friend", you might mean just taking things slow. That is what I call dating, which should be getting to know someone. That's the time to put in "time and effort".

        If I do that, then she tells me, "I don't like you like that, I want to be friends", that's cool. She didn't say let's take things slow, she said I'm not romantically interested in you, but you're cool people and I want to be friends. She took herself out of contention, she just said she is not an option for me. I am no longer pursuing her. I did that already and she said no. So if anything happens, and suddenly she sees romance in me as her friend, she's going to have to pursue me now. She might be special, but there are a lot of special women out there. I can't waste time and pass up perfectly good women on the hopes she might come around.

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          That whole last paragraph, Hugh?

          *starts the slow clap*

          I honestly don't see what's so complicated.

        • sith king jordan

          Uncle Hugh for the win

        • Lyric

          Men r really from mars

        • paulb31

          Last paragraph clinched it for me. Once this train pulls out of the station, that's it. The train is not going to put itself in reverse just for you. Either get on when it's there, or be ready to chase it down if/when you realize that was the train you should've been on, but backing the train up is not an option.

  • Not Your Friend

    One cannot escape the ‘friend zone’. If a woman is not attracted to you physically and romantically, then that is it. You cannot convince or force someone to like you. If a man wants to avoid the ‘friend zone’, he can start by approaching women who are attracted to him back.

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan.

      agreed…some use friend zone as a cop out in reality shes just not that into you. Even so why would i want someone to learn to like me like im some sort of acquired taste

      • Ms. Smart

        Aha! So the friend zone is the equivalent of 'he's intimidated by me'!

        • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan.

          exactly
          My recent post Today’s Word is… DRAMA

        • Jupiter Calhoun

          NO.

          Someone will tell you if they only see you "as a friend".

          People only tell themselves they "intimidated someone".

          It's a matter of someone else's decisions vs. one's personal delusion.

      • cynicaloptmst81

        "Even so why would i want someone to learn to like me like im some sort of acquired taste"

        Sometimes, things look different from a distance than they do up close. Sometimes, once you get closer or simply open yourself up to try something different, you realize you actually do like it. Sometimes, its not your face per se…it could be your build, height, age, profession, etc. thats throwing her/him off. Then, once she/he gets to know you, whatever "it" is is no longer an issue.

        • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan.

          guess so, but i'd still prefer to instantly attract
          My recent post Today’s Word is… DRAMA

        • cynicaloptmst81

          "…but i'd still prefer to instantly attract "

          It's overrated, LOL! And I'm not just saying that. I've had deeper relationships with men where the relationship/connection developed in the slow cooker instead of the microwave. *shrugs*

        • tylisa06

          Bingo! That has always been the case for me. I have never had success with someone who I was instantly extremely attracted to.

  • Mr_SD

    We need to embrace the friendzone! We keep talking about it like its a bad thing. The friendzone is mans best passage to the either the pannies OR a real relationship. Fellas step ya freindzone game up!

    • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

      I disagree. The friendzone is a horrible place, at least as I define it, because it implies that only one party is interested in more. I think what you're describing is a friend-ship, which is mutually beneficial to both parties. In that case, I would agree. The friendzone is usually only beneficial to one party, while simultaneously miserable for the other since they usually opine for more (in secret or known, but usually in secret).

      • Mr_SD

        I don't see it that way. As a youngsta I worked the friendzone to death (and not by choice..lol). I never really understood how to get out until I embraced it and learned how to work it. As you stated It starts with friendship and a lil bit of acceptance. I need to accept that I may not get the girl but i will get her heart and typically if you can get a girls heart the rest of her will follow. And I was bold, id chase chicks i knew for sure I couldn't get, and at the end of the day i would win. It takes patience though but if a determined mind is a powerful thing.

        • cynicaloptmst81

          I'd venture to say that your approach was, "What friend zone?!"

          LOL!

          What you described aren't the actions of a man feeling boxed in…

        • Mr. SD

          Exactly! Confidence is key. God forbid you ignore her a lil bit but still manage to steal her heart!! #Wining101

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          Interesting approach. I can respect that. When I became wise enough to realize I was falling into the trappings of the friendzone, which as you noted, took many trips of trial and error, I found that if you opt out of the friendzone early enough you (speaking for self) have a better chance at being more than friends – assuming that's what you want. I think it's somewhat disingenuous to pretend to be her friend when you know you want more than a friendship, BUT hey, the ends justify the means so no judgement.

          In my experience, if you opt out of the friendzone component she starts to re-evaluate you as potentially more than a friend on some, "how dare this man ignore me and/or think he's too good to be my friend and/or get with other women after I friendzone'd him… I need to see what he actually offers."

          Game. Set. Match.

          Also, at this age – and I said this on Twitter – I think I'm too old to make new friends, female woman or otherwise. To be "just friends" we have to go through some ish. At this point, outside of work, I'm approaching most women with a romantic notion. If she rejects me as a boyfriend but wants me as a friend-friend, I respect that, but that's not what I'm interested. I'm good on friends. Put differently, why make new questionable friends when I already have proven friends. So while I respect if a woman wants to only be friends, I'm not about the friend-only life anymore.

        • Mr. SD

          Yes to ya whole reply EXCEPT as a single man I can't really say no to any additional female friend-friends..because truthfully if I met a chick I'm attracted to and she wants to friend me then great! The basis of every good relationship is friendship anyway, so let's just get that out the way..lol

        • beautifulsoul

          "The basis of every good relationship is friendship anyway"

          This is what I was tryna tell the last guy I dumped lol, oh well- I think he was just tryna hit it anyway & I'm not about that life.

        • oh ok…

          @Beautifulsoul
          Thanks for saying this!
          MO: I wanted to say, when guys say "patience is a virtue" it often means they stay patient for sex…
          And these are the guys I do a Houdini on..lol

        • beautifulsoul

          you gots to girl!!! Teach them the meaning of "Disappearing Act" when they wanna "Act" a HOT fool! When women speak with their actions by moving on, we teach men that their behaviour is not gonna get them what they want.

          It's the women who stick around & settle for the booty call type situations that ruin these men & make them think their $#!tty behavior is the norm.

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          WIM: "If she rejects me as a boyfriend but wants me as a friend-friend, I respect that, but that's not what I'm interested. I'm good on friends. Put differently, why make new questionable friends when I already have proven friends."

          This. To keep in context of the post, when a man is looking for a woman, he isn't looking for a girl or a friend.

        • cynicaloptmst81

          Personally, I think the key is finding out the real "why"…why doesn't she view you as a romantic option for her?

          Some "whys" are conquerable…others are not.

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          #AintNobodyGotTimeForThat lol

          I think we've convoluted friend-ships and friend-zones. I'm fine with friend-ships with a girl I am romantically interested in as long as I know we're progressing towards an end goal of dating. BUT, in my opinion, the friend-zone has no direction. It's a circle not a direction. If a girl can't figure out she likes me, that's fine. No hard feelings, but I'm going to keep it moving. I'm not going to shuck and jive (No Sarah Palin) to get some women to like me. You either like me or you don't.

          It just seems weird that I already KNOW I like you but in order for you to figure out if you like me back I have to impress or prove myself to you? ….naw. WIM not about that life. My ego won't allow it.

        • cynicaloptmst81

          LMBO! Ego WILL set you up for failure sometimes, be careful, lol.

          As a woman that likes to be pursued, I can't even handle that which I suggest, LOL. BUT, it has worked on me. I've said "no" for conditional/temporary reasons initially and then changed my position. Solid "no's"…like "you gross me out…no"…are always "no". But, "you're not who I'd typcially date", "too close for comfort", "I have a bf" type no's??? They've def turned to yes, lol. Immediately? No. But, over time, yes. I'll also add that I HAD to be around these people. So, it wasn't like I was literally like "let's just be bffs", we became friends, and then I saw the light, lol. But, because I had to be around them after I was like, "eh…no thanks" (work, school, etc.), they left the door open for me and when I changed my position, I knocked on it and they welcomed me in.

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          I respect that – although it's not my usual strategy.

          My thing is I usually eject from the FriendZone Titanic long before the band starts playing. I don't need to wait until the ship is flooded to know it's going down. BUT, if we should so happen to bump into each other in the life boats of the single sea and you get to thinking "hmmm, ok, I'm kinda feeling this dude now" it's all good!

          Howeverrrr, WIM is not going down in the friendzone holding your hand and floating in freezing cold waters while you talk about "I'll never let go" as you pry my frozen hands of yours so you can go get with some dude on dry land. F-that!

          If I put in boyfriend work, I want boyfriend benefits. Where we seem to disagree is that you think I should court/pursue some woman into submission. Whereas I believe that a woman should recognize and appreciate my worth just as I appreciate hers. Why should I be the only one pursuing? How bout we cut the games and both show interest, and if the interest isnt mutual, I guess we just don't have anything to talk about. We can hug it out and go on about our lives.

          Words bond.

        • cynicaloptmst81

          "If I put in boyfriend work, I want boyfriend benefits."

          Wait…that's so not what I think should happen, lol. Continue to live…don't even sweat her, for real. But, let her know in a subtle way…and just let the story unfold. Don't blow her phone up. Don't pay for her lunch. None of that. Just be freakin charmin, LOL. Goodness!!!! Wait for openings and play to win! *shrugs*

          I think its unrealistic that a woman that doesn't "know you" know you will recognize your worth right off the top, come on now, lol. If she hasn't budged after you done shown her a lil sumthin, then ok.

          Men are so lazy nowadays, LOL! j/k…kinda, LOL….

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          It's cool, as I might very well be lazy and I own that (though I would say I don't like to play games myself, but perhaps I'm biased).

          I guess I'm saying if I meet two women, all things held equal, and woman #1 is like "I like you too, let's see what this can be" and woman #2 is like "chill in this friendzone for an undetermined amount of time and maybe if you impress me over time I'll let you know if you're worthy of being my man" ….

          *Antoine Dodson voice* wellll obviousllllllly, I'm going to go with woman #1. Why should EYE have to wait for woman #2 to decide if she likes me – as if I'm not worthy of being liked? Or, if I understand correctly, why should I have to hang around until she decides I'm worthy of her like-like accolades? Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me but everyone has their own life-rules.

          Again, if you not feeling me – you just not feeling me. It's really not that big of a deal. But I can say I'm not about to jump through hoops, scoops, and froot loops to get you to like me. I'm just going to assume "she not that into you"

          What you seem to be describing is like if I told a woman "stay in the side-chick zone (the relative equivalent) until he decides that you're worthy enough to be his woman." Which if I did, y'all would throw all kinds of clear heels and kitchen sinks at my head. So if it's not good for the goose, why would it be good for the gander, bro?

          This topic is on the verge of getting turned into a blog of it's own…

        • cynicaloptmst81

          TEARS @ clear heels!!!!! I don't chase men, period, though so…it'd never be good for me. I can admit that.

          *shrugs* I guess you haven't run into the type woman that would inspire Van Hunt's song, "Anything To Get Your Attention". That's okay, lol.

          Something about that kind of want from a man (for as long as he isn't stalking you, lol) can be…enticing…convincing even. And what man doesn't appreciate what he worked for?! *shrugs*

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          That's fair. Such is the nature of being a man versus being a woman. I think this line seals it for me I don't chase men, period, though so…it'd never be good for me. I respect where you (and probably most women) are coming from, because you're women. So it's easier to ascribe to or prefer an activity that you don't have to do yourself. To be clear, most men are the same way towards women – they often want women to do things that they themselves aren't willing to do.

          I think this boils down to chasing, which I've said before (though not today) I don't do. Chasing, to me, as the name implies, is more like something a dog would do. I don't chase. I reciprocate.

          If I get the feeling a woman likes me, I will pursue to no end. If I get the feeling a woman doesnt like me, as the friendzone usually indicates (at least in the beginning by your very own admission), then it is highly unlikely that I'm going to entice or convince you into submission. If the next man wants to go that route, all power and glory to God be with him.

          That's just not my style.

        • cynicaloptmst81

          …and I'm certainly not trying to change your style.

          Chasing is not as bad as it sounds, lol…and I'll admit, it sounds bad. Pursue is a more attractive word. When I refer to the chase, one shouldn't envision some chick swatting a man away as he's running behind her all around town. That is silly…and game-ish.

          I would hope that a grown man knows the difference between a good, firm "NO!" and an unsure "I need a minute to really weigh this" type no. You've seen Love Jones, LOL! Darius knew Nina's "no" was shaky…

        • Bree

          Exactly Cyn. Preach!

        • Bree

          Wis what if she told you she liked you, but wanted you to pursue cause it made her feel good and womanly. Then would you pursue????? just curious.

        • Furious Styles

          Yeah, but as a man, it wouldn't feel good to ME!
          Quoth WIM:
          "I guess I'm saying if I meet two women, all things held equal, and woman #1 is like "I like you too, let's see what this can be" and woman #2 is like "chill in this friendzone for an undetermined amount of time and maybe if you impress me over time I'll let you know if you're worthy of being my man" ….
          Option 1 feels WAYY better for me. Chances are that the dudes you WANT will have these kinds of options. What is the woman bringing other than her "desire to feel good and womanly" to merit the pursuit? I pursue women who want to be caught. Anything less is uncivilized.
          Besides, Darius was a F'in stalker anyway…in the real world he would have been face down with a cop's knee in his back.

        • Magg

          Seriously if i were a man i'd be like WIM… The friend zone is a trap just like the side chick zone…
          And we (women) should be damned to act like its cool to put these poor men in that zone!!!
          Also if you accept to stay in that zone you're not a man yet… Because a man doesn't have that time to waste anymore!!!

          But i think there is a confusion between friend-ship vs friend-zone, between how to court a woman vs acting like you're the homey (stealing Bluesteele words) when you clearly wanna be more…

        • Bree

          School em Cyn…..+100.

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          WIM: "…you think I should court/pursue some woman into submission. Whereas I believe that a woman should recognize and appreciate my worth just as I appreciate hers."

          The Gospel of Wisdom.

          Women love saying I'm worth it, I'm special, etc. And for many women, that is true. But what do you think I am? Chopped liver? You don't see I'm a great guy and I'm into you?

        • cynicaloptmst81

          LOL! You know you aren't chopped liver, Unc!

          But I even talked to the bf about this and he actually agreed that most grown men know the difference between a scram type NO (which could possibly land you in the so called FZ) and a "I need to think about this" type NO…the latter meaning that there is a strong possibility that you CAN win! Isn't that true for most men???

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          I somewhat agree. I mentioned something similar to this upthread, and it could just be semantics. There's a difference between "let's take this slow" and "let's be friends".

          Let's take this slow implies, "I'm interested, but let's see where this goes."

          Let's be friends implies, "I'm not interested, but if I can't do better or if I change my mind, I may want you later, so hang around while I make up my mind."

          You're right, most men know the difference between a strong no and a maybe no. But it is still a no, and we've also been reliably informed that no means no. So while waiting for no to potentially turn to maybe or yes, I'll be elsewhere. She better pray that I'm still single when she changes her mind!

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          +1 Hugh. It's intersting that women love that "dont treat someone like a priority that treats you like an option" quote, yet here they are trying to tell us that we should remain an option for them, when we've already made them a priority. This makes < sense.

          Here's what I think this discussion has really pointed out to me: like most things, women (and men) don't have an issue with putting people in the friend zone as long as they themselves are not the one being placed in said friend zone. It's very easy to feel apathetic towards a position that you are not in yourself, which does not affect you directly, and in this instance, actually benefits you – seeing as you have someone opining for your affections while you still have the option to see what the rest of the dating world offers you.

          I've remaind firm throughout this thread and I'll end with this: WIM aint no option, bro. lol

          Actually, I'll end with this – my favorite go to line – "It is what it is."

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          WIM: "It's intersting that women love that "dont treat someone like a priority that treats you like an option" quote, yet here they are trying to tell us that we should remain an option for them, when we've already made them a priority."

          This is all I'm saying. I agree with Cyn, for the most part.

          After putting my best foot forward to try to impress a woman, if I hear "let's be friends", that means no, to me.

          The ladies have gradations to their nos, and "friend" could mean "maybe", perhaps. That's their right, of course, but I can't work on a maybe.

        • cynicaloptmst81

          …and the 'maybe' no is the ONLY no that all my suggestions/comments on this matter apply to…I promise, lol. I don't want the fella's chasing their tails.

          "So while waiting for no to potentially turn to maybe or yes, I'll be elsewhere. She better pray that I'm still single when she changes her mind!" <— AGREED!

        • paulb31

          I can understand that. The friend zone is often used as a supplement for the women who are dealing with guys that get the goods, but lack the intelligence/character/personality traits to be the whole package. However there is a benefit to the friend zone: it allows for recon and evaluation without the fakeness that may occur when you meet somebody in a romantic capacity. I've observed in cases where people (women for me since that's the only gender I deal with in that capacity, but I'm sure women will say the same thing about men) are more honest and genuine with their "friends" then with their significant others about who they really are. If after being in the friend zone with a woman that's letting herself be a booty call, jump off or side chick or whatever capacity that's lower than what I saw her as for some ol' shady dude, that's my sign to see that she wasn't who I thought I was and I just dodged a huge bullet.

        • cynicaloptmst81

          …and this isn't just for "some chick", lol.

          Think "Hitch"…that's moreso what I'm talking about.

      • bree

        I agree that the “friendzone” isn’t always a bad place to be. And that real long-lasting relationships can come out of the “friendzone.” However, the impnt thing to consider is WHY the person is friend-zoning you in the first place. That should tell you everything you need to know about if you will stay there indefinitely, forever, or temporarily.
        Why is it that so many people think Every relationship has to start off idealistic and lovey dovey with this great physical attraction and chemistry and if it doesn’t then it’s not worth it.
        People block their own blessings like that. As Ms. Smart & Cyn said some of the best relationships start off as friendships and at a very very slow pace over the course of years.
        My grandfather and his girlfriend didn’t like each other when they first met. He trained her because he was one of her supervisors and she was new. She couldn’t stand him and he couldn’t stand her. In fact she said she almost quit because she didn’t like working with him. My grandfather was high yellow. She said he acted like he thought he was cute and better than her and she thought he had a “high yellow” complex and he seemed like a player because all the women knew him and liked him and he flirted too much. She didn’t think he would like her because she is dark-skinned. He said she was too slow and complained too much. I think his boss told him to take her to lunch and talk her into staying and not quitting and he did and the rest is history.
        So please know that with some relationships 1 or both people may not even like each other like that. But something happens and changes and it grows. Just as you can grow out of love with a person who you used to kiss the ground they walked on at one time, you can grow to love a person who you really didn’t like or had no real interest in at first. Life is like that sometimes. It happens.

    • beautifulsoul

      Thank you Mr_SD :-) The friendzone is not always a negative, a lot of times it's the woman's way of saying she wants to take things slow & get to know a guy before taking it further. Personally I can't even feel comfortable with a guy on a relationship level unless I feel that base of friendship.

      • Mr_SD

        And that's the thing. I need to learn you. Learn everything about you to see if I even like you..lol The friendzone makes that possible with zero stress. Who wouldn't want that??!

        • Peter Parker

          Definitely must co-sign but you will be surprise how many people want to rush things. Like really?? I gotta know we are compatible. Make sure you are not only a lover, but homey and friend….

        • Mr_SD

          Truthfully Im guilty of rushing…i blame technology!..lol

          Also if you late 20's early 30's and you still getting friendzoned then shoot yaself

        • beautifulsoul

          "I need to learn you. Learn everything about you to see if I even like you..lol"

          **swoons** lol, patience is a turn on, Aaliyah said it best…….

      • paulb31

        That would be fine as long as there's a consistency there. What happens quite often is that the guy in the friend zone is having to deal with all the emotional stuff while that woman is often getting her back twisted by scraggly ol' Pookie that she really wants, but won't commit or is constantly cheating on her. NOT ALWAYS, BUT IT IS MORE THAN AN ABBERATION. Sorry for the caps, but some people just don't read everything before they respond.

    • http://30thoughts.com 30thoughts

      I have always agreed that the Friend Zone is not always a bad thing. While men are mostly visual, women can become attracted to a man that has other positive characteristics. I dated this guy that I truly was not attracted to because he was hilarious. A man that can make me laugh has more of a shot than a good looking guy with a dry a** personality. Women are unique in that regard. Dudes sleep on the Friend Zone, but it looks like SD is up on game.

  • Ms. Smart

    Men can spot and avoid the girl like the plague. She's tempting but not a great investment–unless you're just looking for someone to stroke the ego and party with. And…There is no escaping the friend zone–at least with me. The only thing a man can do is avoid ever getting there. Here's a story that illustrates both points.

    My ex (from like 7 yrs ago), had seen me around the city for FIVE years and we had lots of mutual friends (that I'd known a few years since being in a wedding with them). When he'd see me, they would never introduce me to him or let him even get near me, issuing warnings, "Leave her alone." They were a lot older and I am pretty sure they knew I was a girl then. They'd witnessed my antics first hand.

    Anyhow, after five years, his BFF introduced us. I wasn't necessarily attracted to him but I wasn't repelled by him either. We went out a couple times and had a great time. At that point, he clearly stated his intentions. I believe he actually said he wasn't trying to enter into the friend zone. We dated some more. One night a bunch of us were out and his friend asked him if I knew we were together. The next date, he essentially told me that he thought I knew we were together but he wanted to make sure. He also relayed his friend's observation. The truth is, in my mind, prior to that discussion, we were not together.

    The moral of the story is that men need to be clear about their intentions. I wasn't wildly attracted to him upon meeting. But he came through someone I trusted so I was open to getting to know him and became quite attracted to him. Further, his friends were smart enough and observant enough to put the breaks on him even approaching me before I was 'grown'. And he was smart enough to listen and chill.

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan.

      your story weaved together both concepts better than the post (no offense WIM) i agree you have to lay it out there so theres no confusion and because women love to play oblivious
      My recent post Today’s Word is… DRAMA

      • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

        None taken, sir.

    • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

      I agree that being clear about your intentions would vastly clear up any number of confusions in the dating community for both men and women @ Ms. Smart.

      • Ms. Smart

        I would add, it takes a certain level of maturity to lay things out–good or bad. Please believe that for as clear as he was in getting me, he also had the balls to be clear in why it wasn't working. No beating around the bush. No ducking of calls. And as you lay out the difference between girls and women, there's a difference between boys and men. Men are consistently clear even when it doesn't benefit them. How he handled that is why he and I are still cool to this day and have hung out as friends over the years (when I was single).

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          Let me ask you a question that I thought of later… Did you find it weird that he was "peeping" you when you were a girl, even though he waited until you were a woman? Seems sort of like the Beyonce and J situation – which some people feel some way about. In a more relative example, I was talking to a guy who is much older than his wife (I won't say how old out of respect) and he confessed that he originally met his wife when she was 14. It's not like he knew this would be his future wife in this case, but I'm just not sure I could meet someone at 14 then meet them again at 21 and think it was cool to go all in…no pun.

          Anyway, I wonder if you or anyone can relate to this experience. Is it ok to peep a girl as long as you wait until she becomes a woman (or of legal age) before taking things to the next level?

        • Ms. Smart

          I was we'll over legal and he was six yrs older than me but in a very different life space. He was physically attracted to me. Since I was an adult (over 21), I didn't see it as creepy. And he was very much within a socially acceptable age for us to date.

  • http://robustbydesign.blogspot.com/ Jenn

    I so love this post because I am surprised at the number of older men and I am talking 40ish and up who are still acting like they are meeting girls when trying to talk to a grown women and then get upset when you treat them like your kids. Well you are acting my 16 year old so I am going to treat you like my 16 year old and then keep it moving. I don't time to play with my kids I sure in the hell am not to play with what should be a grown ass man. I can see why older men end up with younger women, its not just because they are young and hot, its because they are not ready for grown ass women. Please grown men only, I already have kids. I understand why they do what they do, I don't understand why you are doing what they do.
    My recent post My First Date – From Online Dating Site

  • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan.

    you date girls, you enter relationships with women. Its a lesson we all learn eventually

  • DuchessDee

    if you want a woman she is already in a relationship ( you will be the boytoy or the man on the side) or as Erykah badu states – wait until next lifetime!
    as for the friendship zone: once i place you there, you will never come OUT! lol if there is no chemistry (intellectual, spiritual, or body) your done.

  • Magg

    "You must take life by the reigns and dictate your place in theirs, even if that means having no place in their life at all."
    That's called dignity!

    I agree with WIM, the friend zone is horrible! And if you wanna avoid it, your intentions have to be clear from the start. A lot of men (should i say boys) use that technique, they act like friends hoping that with time your feelings will change… EUH, that's wrong!

    ("Because when girls go wild, they show their t*** to people. When women go wild, they kill men." This is absolutely HILARIOUS, i can't stop laughing!)

  • Beef Bacon

    Women know what they want and girls are just figuring themselves out. Women go to spas, events, seminars, parks, restaurants, museums and other places edify and relax.

    There is no getting out of the friend zone because you are sort of like family once you get put in that category. I get shivers even thinking about dating someone that's like a brother or cousin to me. For me, a man was put in the friend zone when there is no way he will be anything else yet he is still cool enough to chill with or talk to.

    Now, I don't have a friend zone because I know that 99.9% of the time no man JUST wants to be my friend. No need in leading anyone on….I've learned that you can't even smile and say hi a lil too long because he might feel that it could lead to something.

    • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

      Women go to spas, events, seminars, parks, restaurants, museums and other places edify and relax

      *scribbles in notepad* follow-up question, would you want to be approached at those locations? I mean, if you're looking to relax, would you be open to some guy trying to get to know you? …asking for a friend *nervous laugh*

      For me, a man was put in the friend zone when there is no way he will be anything else yet he is still cool enough to chill with or talk to

      Interestingly enough, with a few minor edits, I would say this is the exact same description a man would use to describe a side-chick and/or FEW and/or woman he would date/sleep with that he wouldn't marry.

      eg. "A woman was put in the [side chick] zone when there is no way she will be anything else yet she is still cool enough to chill with or talk to or [sleep with].

      Just thought I'd throw that out there for the congregation to meditate on.

      • Magg

        "if you're looking to relax, would you be open to some guy trying to get to know you?"
        Personnaly I'd be annoyed… However If i am at the museum looking at u instead of that Picasso piece, come talk to me!!! Pay attention to the signs…

      • Beef Bacon

        *scribbles in notepad* follow-up question, would you want to be approached at those locations? I mean, if you're looking to relax, would you be open to some guy trying to get to know you? …asking for a friend *nervous laugh*

        YES…definitely approach at those location. I would be open to a man approaching me when I am getting my relaxation on. That's when I would be more open to his advances.

    • Bree

      "I've learned that you can't even smile and say hi a lil too long because he might feel that it could lead to something." ain't that the truth Beef Bacon. Can't laugh at his jokes too much either.

  • cynicaloptmst81

    I've said it before and I'll say it again…there is NO friend zone. The woman either considers you an option, never seriously thought about it, is on the fence about you, or she doesn't consider you an option. The latter two feel like this said "friend zone". You can't make her change her mind about not dating you but her mind can and does change sometimes if she A) hopes off the fence and lands on the side in your favor or B) changes her mind about what she initially thought about you (ex. I thought you were too ____ but now I see you aren't).

    If she's attracted to you physically in some way (not repulsed by you), there is ALWAYS a chance. Dudes have gone from "not ugly but not my type" to "all I want", lol. A man has NEVER gone from repulsive to fine though…never.

    Don't pressure her and still do you. Just let her see on her own that you are what she wants…and def let her know that's where your head is. If its meant for her to see it, she will. If you're REALLY digging her, it may be worth the effort.

    • cynicaloptmst81

      To clarify…

      Let me add that there is no man that I saw as too deep of a friend/play cousin/a cousin's cousin on their Dad's side that I wouldn't date them, lol. If I chose not to date him, it was simply because I didn't want to date him. It had nothing to do with our friendship/close ties/history, etc.

      • Bree

        Some may consider these "girls" moreso than women. However, most women like to be chased and pursued by men. They may purposely act nonchalant and friendzone a man to test his level of interest.
        Now that I think about it, it's a game that a lot of people play. I've seen many women play this game.

        • Bree

          It's not that the woman doesn't want the man, she does, she just wants to see how hard and how much he will pursue her because she equates that with how well he will treat her and how much he loves her. Similar to the principle some women subscribe to of "making sure u get with long-term and marry a man who loves you more than you love him because he will treat you better." Or the man who really pursues you the hardest is the one who wants you for more than just sex and he will treat you the best. There is some truth to both of these. Many women always test mens loyalty and level of love and commitment in some way or another.
          At the end of the day though, it's up to the man to pursue harder to see if he can turn her no into a yes or if he wants to say "F It" and fall way back and move on. He has the option and freedom to do whatever he feels is best for him.

  • Jupiter Calhoun

    I feel like I just read two separate articles. One about finding a mature, grown woman, and the other about the friend zone. Interesting.

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

      reeeeeeeeemix

    • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

      LOL that's my bad. I was honestly being lazy. The post was originally going to only be about Women vs Girls, but then I had (yet another) friendzone debate on Twitter but it was too short to justify it's own post, so here we are.

      That said, I do think it's related in the fact that it SUCKS to finally meet a woman (not a girl) you actually like and could see yourself with only for her to unmercifully throw you in friendzone purgatory.

      Cole World.

  • cynicaloptmst81

    I know, right?! LOL!

  • Slim Jackson

    The friend zone is a wretched place. I was there once. Well, at least it felt that way at the time. Turned out the chick just had zero interest in me and 200% interest in my friend. I was a pawn in her game of "Stroke Search."

    Looking back, I was just oblivious to her disinterest. It also turned out we were grossly incompatible. I was a boy then — obsessed with shiny action figures. The last time I saw her — years later — she was still writing "do you like me notes" to men with no interest in commitment and asking me for the same advice she asked for years ago.

    Sometimes the friend zone is a blessing. You just gotta be able to step back and see it.
    My recent post A Few Good Reasons to Consider Sales Jobs During Your Search

    • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

      Turned out the chick just had zero interest in me and 200% interest in my friend. I was a pawn in her game of "Stroke Search."

      *REAL TEARS!*

    • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

      well looks like you won in the end.
      My recent post A female dog

    • Bree

      Only once Slim….????

    • Not Your Friend

      The 'friend zone' is a 'wretched place', because men are unable to accept being told "no".

  • Mr4thQuarter

    I have been in the friend zone wayyyy toooo often. However, if I start seeing that she wants to be friends, I cut it off. Why should I allow someone to do something to me that I do not like. I am 32 and I do not need friends. However, some women tend to use this because it gives them a sense of comfort in dealing with the opposite sex. Also this may be a cop-out for "I am not attracted to you in that manner". So if she is not attracted to you, then just leave. If she ask why you did, you dont owe her a response. You have to change the game and put things in your favor. Continue to exercise control over your emotions and things will fall in the right place.

    • oh ok…

      +1 for you sir…
      "However, some women tend to use this because it gives them a sense of comfort in dealing with the opposite sex."
      Wooow! hmph…there some truth in that…*whistles away*

  • msb616

    How does one avoid or escape the friend zone? You tell the person you like them. That's the difference between men and boys/women and girls..they say what they are feeling.

    Women and Men are all around us. The man/woman you want may not be packaged and presented to you in the way you'd like but they are around. Once I deaded the "there are no good men" BS, all of sudden I saw good men..not rocket science…just a change of mindset

    • paulb31

      The only way I know to escape the friend zone is to walk away and find somebody that will reciprocate your feelings. While being put in the friend zone may not be voluntary, settling for it and resigning your existence to it is completely voluntary. I can definitely say that walking away worked for me, and ended up putting them in the friend zone myself.

  • BlueSteele

    Best way to avoid the friend zone is to take some initiative and say what you want. If you act like my homie, that's how you'll be treated.

    • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

      i [almost] got placed in the friend zone doing that. smh
      My recent post A female dog

      • BlueSteele

        You mean acting like a homie?

        • http://biggerthomas.wordpress.com/ madscientist7

          yep.
          My recent post A female dog

  • beautifulsoul

    WOMEN:
    know what they want out of life & are moving toward their goal. They respect themselves & don't settle for less in any area of their life. Women know HOW TO TREAT A MAN & are emotionally available to give & receive love. A woman knows when she is in the presence of a MAN vs. when she is in the presence of a boy.

    GIRLS:
    play games, can not commit to anything & do not treat themselves with respect, they will settle for the booty call/ fwb's situations & call them relationships. They keep multiple men on deck to assuage their ego & avoid emotional intimacy. A girl can not differentiate between a MAN or a BOY.

  • Mr_SD

    I love WOMEN all day but the flip side to dating a "woman" is you better damn sure be ready because she gonna bring it. If you're not ready for a relationship or a possible future with a "woman" then go back to them "girls" and play

    • BlueSteele

      Snaps fingers, raises roof!

    • beautifulsoul

      we may "bring it", but we're soooooo friggin' worth it ;-)

      • Mr_SD

        yall aiight…lol

    • oh ok…

      But why does it have to be that much of a challenge…
      Sure women want "the right kinda" guy (not trying to say "good") but "you better damn sure be ready because she gonna bring it". Really? hmm I guess, but bring what? Integrity, stability, understanding, etc..etc? That shouldn't be too hard to do.
      Ex: I brought that into my relationship, and after months of looking at me surprised he finally realized that I was serious! LOL
      Now we understand what a healthy relationship is, and thats enough to move forward. Taking it step by step…We are not perfect..but we're good ;)

      • Mr_SD

        Not all men are ready for a full blow situation. We wanna play, but in the adults only lounge..lol

        • oh ok…

          oh ok…do you *shrugs*
          I never was a game player so thats probably why theres a difference of opinion.

  • beeserenpity

    It's coming a lil late but I still say that the friend zone is, I agree with Slim, a wretched place to be in, I don't see how anyone ''can rock the friend zone''. I consider a relationship (love) as something that happens in a certain set of circumstances. It's more like a contract; you can't enter into a contract alone. If you want it and the other person doesn't, it can't happen.
    I also don't believe in persisting in that kind of situation. because at that stage what you feel is a high level of attraction towards this person and the possibility of how awesome you can be together. Persistence will put you in quick misery. Besides, if you persists what are really hoping to get? in the end you can only force a horse to the river…
    Meanwhile, the best way to meet/find a woman, is to stop looking for her. Because the element that distinguishes women from girls is not what you can see or what you can look for, it is what you can discern.

  • sith king jordan

    i've been in the friend zone so long, i've constructed a new death star.

    currently, i accept friend zone placement as simply "she's not attracted to me" and keep doing me.

    it is what it is.

  • Bree

    In my humble opinion I don't think u can realistically avoid the friendzone. You can't control whether someone likes you, (the real you) or not. All you can do is be you and they either take it or leave it.
    Everybody you like won't like you back, and everyone you want is not what you need.
    As Slim previously stated being in the friendzone can be a blessing in disguise. Actually many times it is just that.
    If your in the friendzone see the positive in it and know that maybe this person wasn't for you and may not be as great as they appear to be at that time. Dating and relationships is like slots and gambling. You will win some, and you will lose some. What matters most, is that you stay in the game.

  • Dee

    To quote Slim Charles (The Wire): "Once you're in it, you're in it."

  • http://www.herhearthismind.com Herhearthismind

    If you have good intentions, the "friends zone" will allow greater things to happen. Sometimes a friend zone is needed when you know where you want the relationship to go.
    My recent post Looks vs. Chemistry

  • loveangel88

    Lmao WIM you are SO dramatic when you want to be. I flippen love this post! Thank you for this!

    However, sometimes the friendzone is the best place to be. Getting to know all sides of someone isn't always a bad thing, you might learn that maybe you'd be better off as friends, or eventually you'll end up dating.

    The friendzone really isn't a death sentence.

    But let's be honest, some people do walk into the friendzone willingly.

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