Is it easier for a man to find a wife?

No.

Is it easier for a man to get into a relationship? Yes. But, what does that really mean? Does the ease of getting into a relationship dictate that a man can find a wife easier than a woman can find a husband? This is a which came first, the chicken or the egg debate. Having the advantage of having more to choose from is only an advantage if every woman in the available population of choice is wife material, which would seem very strange to assume when women so readily recognize that not every man is husband material, so why would the inverse by any less relative?

Naturally, both men and women are biased in their views. As a man, I think the odds are in the woman’s favor. It seems far easier to have the benefit of sitting around waiting for someone to come up and vie for my attention than it does to be the one that has to vie for and be deemed attention-worthy. Even if it’s true that women believe they have less good men to choose from, they still have the advantage of doing the choosing; whereas, men have to be chosen. Perhaps it is simply more accurate to say that women choose husbands from the men that approach them and men choose wives from the women that select them. In which case, does either party really have an “advantage” over the other? These were the questions I was asked to address this week on MadameNoire. An excerpt:

Last month, I wrote about Why Men Settle. As part of that discussion, a number of women wondered why a man would ever settle in love when it seems like they have far more choices than women do. I understand how that might seem confusing, but I’m also unsure this popular sentiment is even true. For one, I’m on the fence about if dating is really easier for men. Taking it a step further, is finding a wife/love/soul mate any easier for men than it is for women? I don’t think so. Let’s break down the various assumptions about dating for men.

There are not enough good black men: True and false.

The popular headline is that there are less viable black men for viable black women. There are generally a few errors when this much re-hashed story breaks. First, it assumes a ‘viable black male’ can be quantified using objective measurements, usually schooling and income. For example, they report that more black men are in jail than in college. This is a blatant lie, which you can read more about from this unlikely source here, so I won’t bother dissecting it. They go on to report that we have a high number of high school drop outs, which is true, but they don’t account for the fact that high school drop outs and jail rates are both interrelated and often reflective of the same population. As an extension of this point, the same can be said for college graduation rates – as black women do outnumber black men in enrollment and graduations, but only 30% of Americans have a college degree and miraculously, people still get married every day of the week.  Income is by far the fairest measurement; however, simple arithmetic dictates that the higher your income requirement for a prospective mate – and you are free to have one – the less people will meet it.

Potential mate populations aside, I’m willing to admit that the way people traditionally date – with the expectation that men approach women – might make it easier for a man to initially meet a woman. The real question is how much impact does one to one ratios matter if women don’t proactively choose from available men anyway?

The dating odds are in men’s favor: False.

For this to be true…read more.

What makes dating easier for men? What makes dating easier for women? Is it easier for a man to find a wife than it is for a woman to find a husband?

From Our Partners

  • BigBrother79

    Is it easy for a man to find a date? Yes.
    Is it easy for a man to find a jump off? Yes.
    Is it easy for a man to find a woman who will "chill" with him for years without a commitment? Yes.
    Is it easy for a man to find a woman who will have a baby (or 2 or 3) for him? Yes
    And for these reasons it is difficult for men (not to find, but) to choose a wife.
    Stop giving us all your power sisters.
    Love you!

    • BlueSteele

      *side eye*

      "And for these reasons it is difficult for men (not to find, but) to choose a wife. "

      I hope this statement also implies that it's equally difficult to wake up, stand up and choose to be a husband. That whole "men do what women allow" argument only goes so far. Men need to take responsibility too. My boss ALLOWS me to be up to 15 minutes late everyday, it doesn't mean I can't (or don't) consciously DECIDE to be on time though.

      • Bree

        "My boss ALLOWS me to be up to 15 minutes late everyday, it doesn't mean I can't (or don't) consciously DECIDE to be on time though."
        Cosign BlueSteele. As grown ups who know right from wrong we all need to realize that just because the option to do wrong is there, doesn't mean we have to do it.
        God gave us Free Will, meaning we have the option to do right, keep his commandments, and submit to and do his will. Or follow the world and do whatever we want to do. However, just because we have the option, since we know right from wrong, that does not mean it's cool for us to choose the wrong thing and do the wrong thing just because we are able to do so.
        There are always consequences to choosing wrong.

      • Uncle Hugh, BP

        BlueSteele: "That whole "men do what women allow" argument only goes so far. Men need to take responsibility too. My boss ALLOWS me to be up to 15 minutes late everyday, it doesn't mean I can't (or don't) consciously DECIDE to be on time though."

        Yes, but there is no reason to HAVE to be "on time". Your boss removed the reason to be on time. If I want to hit the snooze button, or go to Starbucks before going to work, there is no reason whatsoever that I shouldn't. There is no responsibility to take, because there's an extra 15 minutes.

        It's like Jennifer Aniston's boss on Office Space requiring her to wear more flair.

        • kalistetics

          There is a difference.

          The benefit IS there. If she does get to work 15 minutes earlier, it is because she's making it known to her boss that she will go above & beyond what's expected proving that she is responsible, dependable, consistent, etc. which could possibly lead to a promotion or who knows. And trust she will reap those benefits in due time.

          Aniston's character didn't want to be there nor wanted anything to do with Chotchkie's. So there was no benefit. On the other hand, her co-worker went above & beyond because he obviously saw a future there.

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          Correction: a potential benefit is there, but remember there is still a cost. Sacrificing the 15 minutes that was given:

          - assumes the extra 15 minutes is of little or no value.
          - does not guarantee that promotion, or even guarantee not being fired.
          - assumes the employee can't get hired by a different employer, potentially for more money.

          To go back to BlueSteele's analogy, if an employer is giving all the benefits and allows an extra 15 minutes, what's the point of not taking the fifteen minutes?

          Or to go back even further to BigBrother79's point, women collectively gave "all (their) power" to men, so there is no incentive to get married at all, much less early.

          I still don't know the answer to the question if it's easier for a man to get married than a woman. I'll just say it's not easy for men or women.

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

      wouldn’t say it makes it difficult, it’s more greed than anything. How can one say a woman worthy of bearing your child, or being with you for years isn’t worth marrying? Men don’t marry because they want to be single, have a woman at home waiting for them and have kids all at once. That’s greed.

    • Bree

      "And for these reasons it is difficult for men (not to find, but) to choose a wife." Cosign on this statement right here.

    • Peter Parker

      Spoking like a true Champ!

      • Peter Parker

        Spoken**

  • VzzyScorpio

    No it is not. When I consider compatibility, nurturing, intell, faith few concrete things I look for, women dismiss themselves. I am finding it more and more difficult to the point the comment above is what I ll sign up for. Per advice to others , If you are waiting or pursuing for the "One" don't complain with the woes me schtick and be patient. But its like damn, educated, professional are pro-fem, butt strong, or have not explored healing. Even with patience and compromise still encounter these things.
    **Vent closed**

    But no we don't have it easier. …

    • Cherish

      Why is there always this assumption that Black women are broken and need to be healed? I think if you approach a woman already assuming something is wrong, you'll create a problem.
      And what's wrong with being pro-fem, if you are confident with your identity as a man, you should not be threatened by a woman who celebrates her femininity, beauty, ability to bear children, intelligence, power, leadership and team capabilities, and the idea that she absolutely should be treated with just as much respect as any man and if her skills are up to par receive the equal pay too.

  • Mr_SD

    Alright so here goes….I blame ME. I suck at choosing the right chick. Would it be easy for me to find a "good" woman and put a ring on it? Probably so. My problem is I want a good wholesome down home good cooking, lady in the streetz – smut in the sheets type of woman that got her mind right, can hold a damn good conversation and basically make me better. Dammit make me BETTER! Sorry yall I went on a lil rant there…lol But yes its all my fault. I think I want that "everything" woman that simply don't exist, or maybe she does, I can't call it.

    • Bree

      Mr. SD my suggestion is to Read Proverbs 31 and actively & purposefully Seek that type of woman.
      Don't waste time with any woman that is not the kind of woman you want, but most importantly the kind of woman you Need. Once you have the right frame of mind you will draw women who are more what you need. They may not be the hottest, baddest chicks. They may not make a lot of money, they may be "plain janes" but they will be what you Need. Their love will sustain you and they will always take good care of you and treat you like a Proverbs man. But she has to be a Proverbs woman.
      And pray, pray, pray, and pray some more.

      • BlueSteele

        *Snaps fingers, raises roof!*

        One thing you can't do, is meet that Proverbs 31 woman who meets your needs and not be ready to hit the ground running. I think Mr_SD said something in another post about real women coming with the real. That's what you get when you deal with the woman who sustains your needs, but you sure better be ready to take the lead!

      • Mr. SD

        I will be hittin up Proverbs TOday!

        • Bree

          Thats whats up Mr. SD. *smile*

      • Caesar20417

        Obviously sarcasm is lost on you. Proverbs 31 is exactly what you never want to be. I am sure you have heard and may be even glance over Proverbs 31, but your suggestion indicates you have never read Proberbs 31. First you must understand who is the speaker and who she is speaking to. King Lemuel is also King Solomon. King Lemuel's mother is Bathsheba. Prov 31v 2 "what son of my vow" the vow david made to bathsheba can be found in 1Kings 1; 16-18 and again in 1 Kings 1: 28-31. Proverbs 31 v3 the first command King Lemuel's /Solomon's mother gave him was "Do not give your strength to women, nor your ways to that which destroys kings" Proverbs 31v10 "who can find a virtuous wife? Thats a question, a question laced with pesimism..,,

        • Caesar20417

          (part2)
          and understanding the hittite culture in which bathsheba is from it gives even greater understanding to how hittite women saw themselves and other women of their culture. King Lemuel's Mother begins to rattle off these impossible ideas at the time of what this virtuos wife will have and or do. This virtuous wife does all this with out the love or support of her husband. And though the mother piles all of these fantastical ideas on this woman, she gut punches her with Proverbs 31 v 29 "many daughters have done well, but you exceed them all (King Lemuel/Solomon), and to round the bases with yet a more depressing note Proverbs 31v 31"let her OWN works praise her in the gates. You dont want to marry a proverbs 31 woman becfause she does not exist, you dont want to be a proverbs 31 woman because you will not matter. I speak as a relationship therapist/ behavior and human sexuality/ and a husband of 8 yrs. you do not ever want a proverbs 31 wife and you never want to be her. If you want to choose a woman from the bible to emulate i suggest Rahab, Ruth or Esther. If you would like to discuss further i can be emailed at [email protected]

        • BlueSteele

          You know something, I'm going to restrain my anger at reading this. Proverbs 31 (if you read it in it's entirety, specifically after verse 9) praises the virtuous woman and describes the "perfect" wife. It instructs women to remain virtuous and hard-working. Two KEY things that a man needs as a husband!

          Your experience as a therapist and time served as a husband mean NOTHING when you skew the word!

        • BlueSteele

          You speak on verse 1-9 where King Lemuel's mother advises him to be a virtuous king by avoiding women who will bring him down, using righteous judgement, and avoiding drunkenness. Verse 3 "Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings."

        • Bree

          Thank you BlueSteele.

        • BlueSteele

          Yo this term paper he just wrote…F+

        • Caesar20417

          Im also a minister. I promise I am not skewing the word. Read it line my line, with the understanding of who is speaking. Don't be so quick to defend. A lot is lost in translation from Greek to English or Aramaic. And I have studied that passage line upon line. she is not being praised. it is a satirical writing. The word and written text is and still is accurate. the presentation of the Proverbs 31 is whats inaccurate. Read it again with the understanding that King Lemuel's mother is Bathsheba. And please do not be arrogant to think those are the things men need as husband seeing you have never been or will never be. apply 2 Tim 2:15 and then read proverbs 31

        • BlueSteele

          Arrogant? A husband doesn't need a virtuous helper? Minister? Ok champ. I'm done.

        • Caesar20417

          The question the kings mother raises is "WHO can find a virtuous wife?" you want to be defensive and in your feelings when the question is still on the table? and the writing of Proverbs 31 comes very close to the presence of the Queen of SHEEBA In Isreal. the writing is dated around 950bc Solomon took the throne around 970 bc. he already had 700 wives and 300 concubines, Proverbs 31 is extended into the book of Lamentations.
          Its a good read once you understand the text. And when I said arrogant i was speaking to the idea that you place modern ideology on historical figures in order to make it make sense. Wive in antiquity hell wives just 50 years ago are not the same nor did they have the same ideals. so im simply stating you must understand the time and historical context of the scriptures. apologize in advance if you were made upset

        • Caesar20417

          Also in the text of Proverbs 31. Husband is mentioned twice. The first indicates what kind of man he is. v 23 "Her husband is known in the gates" understanding Israelite customs this is a noble man. A man that lives separate from his wives (plural) yes plural. Noble men did not live with their wives and children. And the second place where husband is mentioned is that she is praised by her husband for taking care of the household and children. Everything she receives comes from her efforts never from her husband. This is the life of the majority of women in antiquity.

        • Bree

          Ceasar20417 –
          "encourage the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be sensible, pure, workers at home, kind, being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored." Titus 2:4-5
          Ephesians 5:22-33
          New International Version (NIV)
          "Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

        • Bree

          Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church, for we are members of his body.For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”This is a profound mystery, but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband."

        • Bree

          The book of Proverbs 31 in the Hebrew Bible is presented as advice which Lemuel's mother gave to him, about how a virtuous king should reign, and also detailing the attributes of a virtuous wife or ideal woman. Coincidentally it also aligns with all of the teachings of God.
          To take it a step further, from a spiritual standpoint in marriage God represents the husband and the church represents the wife. We the body of Christ represent the church.
          This goes back to the Ephesians scripture. Regardless of the language the bible was written in and the specific meaning of the word, God's word and his intent and teachings have not changed at all. The idea's and basic principles of the scripture remain the same.
          The whole point of the Proverbs 31 woman and why it is mentioned in the bible is to give a detailed description of what the "Godly Woman" should be like. Virtuous. Look up the meaning of that word. Why wouldn't a woman want to possess those qualities and why wouldn't a man want a woman who was Virtuous.

        • Caesar20417

          You are making a huge leap in assumption. First you mention Hebrew Bible. Please show me a Hebrew Bible. There is a Jewish Torah, A Rabbinical Concord. A Greek Septuagint but I do not know of a Hebrew bible. Second, You can not separate the speaker of the text from the text it self. When you separate the two the writing is now out of context. You are making the same assumption when talking about the book of Ephesian concerning marriage, Ephesians was written by Paul a man who thought marriage was a waste of purpose. Its in your bible where Paul sees no reason for people to marry

        • Caesar20417

          (part 2)

          The apostle Paul was an apocalyptic prophet. He preached celibacy and detachment from worldly things including relationships. Paul is quoted my saying "its better to marry than to burn" in proper historical context that scripture is about one of his female disciples by the name of Thecla who was put on the stake to be burned alive by her fiance for her refusal to marry. Love is what is needed in a relationship, Love is what Jesus ask us to do (John 13:35) Love . I counsel many married couples heading to divorce with ton of virtue and absolutely no love

        • Caesar20417

          (part 3)
          Study the text . The Kings mother in verse 29 gives the biggest piece of evidence of her opinion about this pseudo woman. "You are better than them all" this is the real reason why Men are slow to marry. Our mother holds a tremendous influence over the woman we choose. That's the key that most women don't get. If a man's mother doesn't approve of you..he won't leave you but he won't be rushing to marry you. And please dont provide examples of exceptions and not the rule

        • Caesar20417

          What is your argument, I have not mentioned any of the scriptures you have presented. Proverbs 31 is not Ephesians or Titus, not sure what you are getting at

        • Bree

          From God's perspective, Bathsheba was not to blame. She was the little lamb that Nathan the prophet had spoken of, who had been nourished and cared for, and held in her husband's bosom. The prophetic confrontation between David and Nathan was directed at King David alone, who had abused his position of authority and deceptively taken the wife of one of his finest soldiers.
          Not only was Bathsheba blameless, but the divine judgment for the king's sin was outside of her control. Soon after the birth of her firstborn son, the baby became ill and died seven days later. Yet through these trials, Bathsheba survived because of her unwavering hope for peace. And God heard her cries. Ultimately, King David realized the irreparable damage that his sins had caused. His heart was broken knowing that Bathsheba had been the silent yet faithful victim through it all. He comforted her, repentant of the sorrow and grief that he had brought into her life.

        • Bree

          Later, King David provided Bathsheba with another son named Solomon, her "peace." This marked the acceptance of her position within the king's house, and it signified that God had restored her identity as a wife and mother. Yet Bathsheba's peace was multiplied when God sent another word through Nathan the prophet, only this time for blessing. According to Nathan, Bathsheba's sone was not just her peace, but he was Jedidiah, "beloved of Yahweh."
          Bathsheba's humble and submissive heart allowed her to see her son Solomon established upon the throne of David. His reign marked the most peaceful and prosperous time in Israel's history. Solomon ruled with wisdom and intellect, far above any other king, both before him and after him.
          This son of Bathsheba began the lineage of David, from which the promised Messiah would come. God, in His love and mercy, had not forgotten her.

        • Caesar20417

          we are in agreement. What does this have to do with the subject at hand

        • Mr_SD

          Bust how im bout to marry me some Miss Steele!..lol

        • BlueSteele

          Hey now! ;-)

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

      That’s the other argument, there are so many potential wives to choose from why wouldn’t men want the best one for themselves. I just wrote about this in my blog, there’s so many nice choices out there but where the hell is mine?

      • BlueSteele

        So for men is it more of a "right woman" issue, "right time" issue or both?

        • cynicaloptmst81

          RIGHT TIME! I know you were asking the men but, LOL…

          I know that now. I have learned that lesson.

        • BlueSteele

          Lol, girl you and me both!

        • Mr. SD

          Timing is everything

        • Bree

          I think both BlueSteele. The problem I see is folks expecting things in each other that are unreasonable, and situations and circumstances that are unrealistic and may never happen.
          And even if you do happen to feel like you got married at the perfect time, to the perfect person, in the perfect situation, and under the perfect circumstances, all those things will not Remain perfect. Then what……………….???

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          BlueSteele: "So for men is it more of a "right woman" issue, "right time" issue or both?"

          Bree: "I think both BlueSteele."

          It is both. Although it is more accurate to say "right type of woman" than "right woman".

        • Bree

          True that Hugh

        • Mr. SD

          It's both

        • Peter Parker

          Definitely both.

      • Bree

        Tristan maybe because there are so many wonderful women to choose from this is why your having a problem deciding the best one. It's like going to your fav restaurant where you love practically everything on the menu. It's all so good it's hard to choose.
        But with regards to relationships and women, you just have to choose the one you want and the one you need and have the best connection with. The reality is there are always people out here better than all of us. You have to be mature enough to be satisfied with what you have, and what you have has to be more than enough for you.
        Start analyzing what you want and why vs what you need and why. Write a list of all the qualities you want and need in a woman. Writing list makes things more concrete and gives u something to refer back to. Keep that list in mind when u meet women ur interested in and do comparisons.
        Don't waste your time with women who aren't what you want and need.
        Keep you eye on the prize, stay steadfast and diligent and you will win. *smile*

    • oh ok…

      @Mr_SD
      One day you're gonna find "the one" and a compromise will follow…ONLY because nobody's perfect.

  • GirlSixx

    Imma need you to say it again another 50 more times….. Okay. Thanks!!!!.

    COSIGN!!!!

  • Dr. J

    I actually think it is easier for men to find a wife. Chris Rock said it best, "I feel sorry for you guys who have to pick a wife out this bunch." I agree with that statement but I also agree that at a very basic level men don't get married until they're ready to get married. You don't really have to convince a woman to get married to a man she's been involved with for some time. That's really on the man. That's why men wake up one day and they say to themselves they're ready for marriage, they meet the girl and they build the relationship into marriage. Women make that same decision and then they have to wait for the right man to come along and then also hope that he's ready for marriage. There is no social networking platform for "good men, who aren't too unattractive and are ready to get married." However, the majority of the women I know want to get married and are positioning themselves earlier to be wives.

    • http://www.singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery/ WisdomIsMisery

      Somewhat agree. For starters, I think the bar for what defines a “good man” is subjectively higher than the bar that defines what is a “good woman.” In most of my observations, men expect less from a woman to commit to her than a woman expects of a man to commit to him – and that’s fine, since both parties have different vested interest to satisfy within the relationship.

      Moreover, I think what you’re doing here – and what many people are guilty of, self included – is prescribing a solution for people who don’t have a “problem.” We often pretend that the dating pool is a liner relationship of wife/husband material and we just know that’s not true. It’s more or less a bell curve, with those in the top 25% or so, men and women, having no problem meeting men and women. However, that leaves about 50% in the middle who have moderate to difficult problems meeting a mate and a bottom 25% who REALLY struggle. I’d say most of our content and proposed “solutions” should be directed at and reflective off that 75% in the middle and below. The top desired men and women, the 25%, will likely be perfectly fine as long as they settle down during the period when they have the most to offer to the opposite sex.

      - Sent from iPhone

    • Bree

      Exactly Dr. J. Even internationally in other countries, women are bred and trained as girls to be wives, while men are bred and trained to be good providers.
      In the early 1900's in school girls took home economics at about 11 or 12 years old. They were taught to cook, and take care of a house and children. Boys took shop classes or trade classes to learn some type of trade to be able to work and make money to provide for the woman and children.
      It is ingrained in women to be wives and mothers. Even many very young girls want to be wives and mothers when they grow up. Little girls playing with dolls is practice and sets the stage for being them to be future moms.
      1 Corinthians 11:9 – "Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."

  • Bree

    Theoretically speaking, a man chooses a woman, a woman waits to be chosen. If a woman isn't married it may be because no man ever in her life proposed to her. The man more often than not does the proposing, not the woman. A man can easily find a wife. All he has to do is date a few women and choose whichever one he wants to wife. Or if he meets a woman and immediately deems her "the one" then he proposes. All a man has to do to get a wife is pick one. A woman has to wait to be chosen.
    It's also in the bible – "He who finds a wife finds a good thing And obtains favor from the Lord" Proverbs 18:22

  • BlueSteele

    Yes it is easier for men to find a wife. For one, look around at how many women are waiting on/looking/preparing for their husband.

    "Perhaps it is simply more accurate to say that women choose husbands from the men that approach them and men choose wives from the women that select them."

    This sums it up for me. Men approach and women select; women can (typically) only select from the available men who approach. On my best day, not EVERY man I'm interested in (and not every man who approaches me) will want to be in a relationship, let alone a husband. On the flip side, you'll have a hard time convincing me that there aren't plenty more viable options for men- who are ready for marriage.

    **Sn: I acknowledge men's apprehension (or whatever) on approaching. However, if you can't initiate a conversation/date/relationship, what does that tell me about your readiness to be a husband? **

    I can prepare myself for marriage as much as I want, won't change the fact that I can't make a "good" man (I know, a whole different discussion) ready to take it there.

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

      Pretty much.

    • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

      I think I see the theme of the direction the comments are heading early lol so I'm going to read the writing on the wall and probably stay on the sidelines for today. My last comment…

      This sums it up for me. Men approach and women select; women can (typically) only select from the available men who approach. On my best day, not EVERY man I'm interested in (and not every man who approaches me) will want to be in a relationship, let alone a husband. On the flip side, you'll have a hard time convincing me that there aren't plenty more viable options for men- who are ready for marriage.

      Regarding your first two sentences, I would only say this is a similar, if not the same, issue men face. We seem to be operating under the assumption that even if there are more to choose from, which I'll grant is probable, every man can have every woman/wife he wants. If a man is limited to choosing from only the women that will have him, then how much choice does he really have in the matter relative to the woman?

      Using an example: if a man really wants to marry women Type A but only women Type B will have him; yes, you're right he can get married. But is he with the woman he wants to be with? I'm not so sure. That's like celebrating winning a race that ends after the edge of a cliff. Is that really a victory?

      I just don't see how we can say it's easier because men ask, relative to the fact that women also have to accept. As I said to J above, it's really only those women/men in the top tier that have all these free-wielding "choices" we're saying the entire population of men/women have. That's wildly inaccurate. If it were true (we wouldn't be having this discussion lol), no man would ever be turned down because he would be selecting under the assumption that all women want him. Since men get turned down every day of the week, I'm fairly certain this is not the case. Perhaps I'm stating this incorrectly:

      Can a man find a wife? Sure. Can a man definitely get the wife he wants? Debatable, in my opinion. And, once again, I'm not saying it's any easier for women. I'm simply saying this idea that men have it easy and women have it hard? All things considered, I just don't see it that way.

      • Magg

        If he really wants to marry women Type A, he'll make them have him… Or he'll just lower his standars, maybe the reason Type A don't want him is because he's not worth Type A… Just like women who want the BEST man, but who aren't best themselves…

      • BlueSteele

        You say you're gone for the day, but I know you're going to read this, lol.

        I think we're all responding to 'a' wife versus 'the' wife, and circling the idea that men's standards for marriage seem to be easier to meet than women's. I hear you though, we can agree to disagree for once.

      • Larry

        " And, once again, I'm not saying it's any easier for women.I'm simply saying this idea that men have it easy and women have it hard? All things considered, I just don't see it that way. "

        If you lead with this you probably would have avoided a lot of the misinterpretation of what your basic point was, lol.

        • BlueSteele

          yep

      • Bree

        Wis, your in Colorado right? Granted there may be more marriage-minded men in your city/state.
        But from experience I will tell you that in Philly, Jersey, NY, Delaware, and the DMV and probably a lot of other cities and states there aren’t a whole heap of men who necessarily want to get married and/or who will marry their girlfriends after a few years of being in a relationship.
        Maybe your basing your opinions off of where you live and men you know and your circle. But honestly there really aren’t many men who desire to get married, and even if they do it won’t be as quickly as the woman they are seeing will want to.
        In one of your post I believed you discussed how men let perfectly great women who are the loves of their lives go because of fear.
        I think men have such an overwhelming fear of commitment and marriage because of the negative connotations regarding marriage and children that many men really don’t want to get married. Even though they say they do, most mens actions Do Not coincide with what they say.
        A man who is truly ready for marriage and seeking a wife Does Not even entertain any woman who is not “wife material.” He does not just “hook up” with women, he doesn’t just date, he “courts,” he lets it be known early on that he is seeking a “wife” not just a girlfriend, a hook-up, or an fwb type of thing or whatever. I see a lot of men saying with their mouth that they are ready for a wife and want to get married and they are ready to settle down, yet they will “hook-up” with a “bad azz chick” that will lay down and give it up. They have no qualms about being in an fwb type of situation and have no qualms about sleeping with a woman and having a “semi” or “undefined” relationship with her. Now imo if a man was serious about marriage why wouldn’t he consider anything but a serious relationship with a woman a complete waste of his time. I liken that to constantly accepting and doing temp/contracting jobs in fields that you don’t even like and really want to be in, when deep down in your heart of hearts you desperately yearn for a permanent career with good benefits and a good 401K. You really want a job that u can be at for 20 years plus, yet you constantly take short-term contracting jobs and temp work.
        I’ve worked with temp agencies since I was in college. In college they were perfect for me because I could work during summer break and make extra money. Right after college they were cool until I could figure out what I wanted to do and get in with a company I wanted to stay at.
        However, once I got in my 30′s I actively and purposefully did things to ensure that I would have a long-lasting career, (which I now have). When I dealt with staffing agencies I let them know I did not want anything short term. I was out of work at one time for almost 4 months. I refused all the short term assignments because I knew it wasn’t what I wanted and refused to settle. I figured why waste my time with something short term when I could put that time into finding something long term, and I found something.
        Quite frankly a lot of men and women have a very very long way to go before they are ready for marriage. Especially one that will be solid as a rock and withstand the test of time.
        Might I suggest this video:
        Voddie Baucham on a series called “Love and Marriage” It’s a powerful commentary that helps singles understand God’s marital roles for men and women and understanding why some are single, and how to know you are truly ready to be a husband or a wife. Yes it’s bible based, but its also very true and makes perfect sense.
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chAvBs5Fexw

      • Uncle Hugh, BP

        Cosign WIM's entire comment.

        " And, once again, I'm not saying it's any easier for women.I'm simply saying this idea that men have it easy and women have it hard? All things considered, I just don't see it that way. "

        I think we all need to keep in mind that easier doesn't mean easy. Assuming that it is easier for men.

      • Bree

        Wis I don't think it's so much a thing of men and/or women having it hard, I think men and women equally make it much much more difficult than what it should be.

      • paulb31

        Everything looks easier when you're not the one who has to do it or go through it, point blank. I don't buy into how easy this is or how hard it is based on gender, it's not that simple. If you mean easy by the actual action, then yes it is easy for men to do so. But once you take into account the finances to get the ring, the fact that there are so many women who simply want the ring, the ceremony, and the Mrs. title and are willing to be deceitful or pretend to be something they can't/won't live up to, the horror stories from men who felt deceived and hoodwinked into marrying somebody they wish they hadn't, and the possibility of divorce and alimony and child support payments, it is not easy to find a woman worth the risk and cost for a man, especially when nobody takes into account that he can be deceived by a member of the gender generally considered as being better at being deceitful. There's a lot more that goes into finding a wife than just seeing somebody that looks good and is a good lay. There is a legacy on the line here as well. It makes a difference, which is why when a man is ready to find a wife, the several women he may have had at his disposal during his supposed wilding out days are no longer an option; there's a different set of standards for jumpoffs/FWB and wife material.

  • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

    Yes, it’s easier for a man to find a wife because at the very basic of levels, more often than not the ball is in his court. He courts, he commits, he proposes, he marries, the woman only has to say yes and I do. She could be into him but how often does she pursue, she can want a relationship but how often does she establish one, she could want to be his wife but how often does she propose? A woman can nudge, give ultimatums or simply leave but she can’t make him ready for what he isn’t ready for. Moreorless, it’s easier to get a yes than get the right question asked.

    • Bree

      Exactly Trist.

    • J. Crawford

      I can't "speak" for WIM, but I think I get what he is saying….

      Tradition is outlined that Men do Everything, as you said, Tristan, and te ONLY thinkg Women have to do is Say Yes/ No and and I Do/I Don't, which means she is not bringing Anything to the table in the first steps of the courting process; She is the ONE being Chosen, Not the Chooser.Many people who still believe in Tradition frown at Women who are now Persuers in today's environment and that's total BS. MY personal opinion and question is IF/WHEN Women have all the criteria and qualites in a man they want and seek, why Can't she show/do the intiative and Act First? Why can't she Propose (a la Chrissy to Jim from L&HH)?

      It definitely is Not Easier for a Man to find a Wife than a Woman is to find a Husband-She's Not Looking at All, she's WAITING, Period

  • Magg

    "I can assure you there are more than a few men who are still recovering from getting turned down this weekend/month/year reading this very sentence"

    I laughed reading this!!! I'm having a hard time feeling bad for these men…

    Going back on the topic, it is easier for men to choose a wife, they just wait until they are ready!!!! Ready is the most important word in a man's life lol!!! And it's crazy how as soon as they're ready it goes fast: they find the chick, they make a lot of effort because they want the relationship to work, and then they proposed. A man who ends up settling is a man who has poor choices!!!
    It's just like when you have too many clothes on the closet and you're like "oh I have nothing to wear"…
    -_-'… And u finally dressed like a jerk when u could have been fresh and clean… just had to pick up the right clothes!!!

    • C.F

      I think you're falling into the exact trap WIM just explained.

      And it's crazy how as soon as they're ready it goes fast: they find the chick, they make a lot of effort because they want the relationship to work, and then they proposed.

      You're pre-assuming that as soon as they find the/a chic, everything from there is automatic yeses. They could find the chic they want, and them bamm, rejection.
      And that seems to be the trend of what I'm reading when men are ready to get married, things just happen Nah, it don't always (hell, most times ) go down the way we want it to, just because we've made up our mind on something.

      • Magg

        I totally understand the trap WIM explained, it's just that I dont see it that way.
        And yall keep on talking about rejection… Do you know what it means to a woman to be rejected?! It means that she has to wait for the next man to be ready in his mind to get married, and then (being ready aint enough) she has to wait AGAIN for him to propose… Being the one in a position of waiting is HARD!!!
        One thing i see a lot is that men who want to get married often pick their woman in a pool of women who DON'T WANNA GET MARRIED. In a pool of women who will reject them, To me rejection and settling are consequences of a BAD CHOICE!!!
        The thing im pre-assuming is "as soon as they are ready and they find THE chick -who's also ready- everything is automatic"… At this point if it doesn't work it's not rejection it's incompatibility and this is another whole topic.
        The only thing i don't find easy for men is that ok a lot of women wanna get married and think that they are wife material, the truth is not so many really are that "wifable".

  • cynicaloptmst81

    I think there are less marriage minded men under the age of 30 these days…and that presents a problem for women (20-35) only looking to date with marriage in mind. But, I also think that some women, for many reasons, give men so much without marriage that lots of men feel they have no incentive to commit on that level…so they don't. Both men and women kiss a lot of frogs before they finally kiss their spouse though.

    On the flip, I think both men and women choose potential mates. But the man must FIRST choose to be a husband, ask her, then she must choose to accept. And, along the lines of what Tristan said, its easier to respond to a question than it is to wait, hope, and pray that someone deems you worthy to even ask you the question. Chrissy's go hard in the paint though, lol…they are the exceptions.

    • BlueSteele

      "Chrissy's go hard in the paint though, lol…they are the exceptions."

      Hehe

    • Bree

      Cosign on all that Cyn. Very very true.

    • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

      I think there are less marriage minded men under the age of 30 these days…and that presents a problem for women (20-35) only looking to date with marriage in mind.

      *Ross voice* These commenters keep pullin me back!

      Is it not possible that this is reflective of the fact that it takes a man longer to develop the desirable qualities that would even make him husband-material in 2012 (and beyond)? I wrote a similarly-themed post before about how when I was in my early 20s, frankly, a lot of women weren't checking for me on the marriage-material level – and I don't blame them because I didn't have ish to offer. #BackInTheDay you basically just had to have some kind of job and be over the age of 18 and you could find a wife. These days, I feel like the bar for what defines "a man" has risen, yet men either 1) aren't keeping up or 2) havent changed much (depending on your view point). Further, it's likely more difficult for today's modern man to reach the attributes that define him as "husband material" when you consider that women have risen in their own stature, so it is only natural that they would expect more from not only a man, but especially a husband. That's well within their rights.

      This also assumes that marriage is still the best conduit for men to show their love, affection, child rearing or whatever else they deem important, which as the latter half of your comment alludes to and has been discussed here before, much of what could traditionally be accomplished inside of marriage can now be accomplished outside of marriage – at least in the men's case (child rearing, security, sex, getting and keeping a woman, etc). All marriage really does – in this day and age – is provide tax breaks, legal guarantees, and additional security. But if we're keeping it 100, those are mostly benefits that help the woman in the relationship not men, so it is really no wonder that men aren't rushing to get married inclusive of that fact and the others I've outlined above.

      Because I know this will be a rebuttal: yes, there are benefits and detriments, unique to women that better benefit men in regards to marriage (married men live longer, obviously have more household income, and traditionally do less housework and directly related child rearing in/out of a marriage) BUT the difference is most men can obtain many of these benefits external to and independent of marriage; whereas, women can often obtain them internal to marriage. Social grooming aside, it's no wonder women (at a younger age) prefer marriage over younger men. *points back to first paragraph*

      • BlueSteele

        "All marriage really does – in this day and age – is provide tax breaks, legal guarantees, and additional security. But if we're keeping it 100, those are mostly benefits that help the woman in the relationship not men…"

        Nah son! Marriage is what you make it (spoken as a single woman though).

        "…when you consider that women have risen in their own stature…"
        Contradicted yourself there. Women are becoming increasingly successful/self-sustaining yet financial, tax and legal ramifications benefit them more?

        Maybe in those cases where boo boo divorced and took you for half (insert Eddie Murphy in tight leather), sure. But those women probably didn't require very much from their potential mate, other than he provide.

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          As you said before, we might have to agree to disagree on this issue. "Marriage is what you make it" is very Hallmark/Disney-like in that it sounds good but doesn't hold water in reality. Marriage, for the most part, has been fairly consistent for centuries. Marriage hasn't changed (and I doubt it ever will), people have changed. People being inclusive of men and women. Marriage is a legally binding contract between two people. What I believe you're describing is a relationship. A relationship "is what you make it." A marriage can be an extension of a relationship but it doesn't wholly define the relationship. A marriage won't make a bad relationship good any quicker than it'll make a good relationship bad.

          I don't believe I contradicted myself; thought it might be your opinion that I contradicted myself.

          To say that "women have risen in their own stature" is true, which is why I said it. To say women are not equal to men is…. debatable. I'll give an example. Black people have "risen in stature" since slavery. Are black people (as a community) equal to whites (as a community)? It's the same thing. Yes, women have risen. That said, you don't dissolve the multi-generational head start that men had through one generation of women. If that were true, then we could clap our hands, pat ourselves on the back, and say that now men and women are equal, let's move on to another issue. Clearly, this is not the case. But, even if you believe women are equal or surpassing today's men, they still have to overcome generations of men before them. Do I believe women have made immense progress in America? Yes. Do I (and many women) believe there is still a ways to go? Uhhh, yes. I'm sure you've heard of this group called "the feminist." So until men and women are equal and/or women surpass men and exceed them for the same number of generations that many men did women, they will benefit more from "financial, tax and legal" in regards to marriage.

          What will be interesting is when we have a sustained generation of women that are the financial leaders of America – and will women still feel as sympathetic to a man taking half a woman's things, receiving child support, and accepting what have traditionally been post-divorce attributes assigned to women. That's when things will get real, real. lol

        • BlueSteele

          Love? Partnership? Friendship? Work? Happiness? Compromise? Commitment? Family? Is marriage none of this?

          Marriage is a legally binding contract for those who want just that. If you can't see past that, then yeah there's no point in us discussing any further.

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          Yeah, I don't see this conversation being very productive. Again, I repeat, is a relationship not inclusive of all these things, ESPECIALLY in 2012? Love? Partnership? Friendship? Work? Happiness? Compromise? Commitment? Family?

          Thus, marriage is an extension, in this case and yes in my opinion (as I readily said), a legally binding extension of those things. You seem to be saying marriage is the only means of finding those things. If that's your opinion, you're right, I outright agree. Plenty of un-married people that find love, partnerships, friendships, happiness, compromise, commitment, and family where I come from. But if we disagree, we disagree.
          :-)

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          *outright disagree lol

        • BlueSteele

          Lol :-)

        • Bree

          Wis seriously, check out this vid link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chAvBs5Fexw or google Voddie Baucham. This brother really breaks down the Purpose of marriage for Men & Women very well. If your an Atheist then it will be irrelevant to you. But regardless of what religion you are marriage is something held in very high regard. In Catholicism it's one of the seven sacraments. It's holy and sacred and represents not just a promise and vows between the husband and wife, but a covenant between Man, Woman, and God. There is a reason God created marriage for men and women to be sexually active and make babies. Marriage could not exist at all. But it exists in Every nationality in some form or fashion for a reason. Maybe you should research the reason why there is such a high importance on marriage. Not just from a legal perspective, but from a biblical and spiritual standpoint.

        • Bree

          God could have had Adam & Eve just "be in a relationship" and/or just go together, but he did not.
          He could have created more than one woman for Adam. He had more than one rib. He could've created more than one man. But I believe God created one man and one woman to procreate and populate the earth for a reason. As I said upthread spiritually God represents the husband, and "the church" ie "the body of Christ" ie we the people" represent the wife. Think about what people would be like in relationships and what the world would be like if the institution of marriage Did Not exist. There would really be nothing greater for us to aspire to once we find people we're attracted to.

        • Bree

          Wis, Now that I really think about the question you posed – "Is it easier for a man to find a wife." No not necessarily. Your right. Because every woman a man dates and has a relationship with will not make him a good wife and be wife material. The "types" of women he dates and his purpose for dating also have a great deal to do with this though. However, I think it's pretty safe to say, it's fairly easy for most men to find a woman who is willing to be his wife, and who would say yes if he proposed to her.
          By the same token though, it's not easy for a woman who is "virtuous" and wife material to find a man who is ready, willing and able to be a husband.
          Contrary to popular belief, I honestly believe many more women "aspire" to be wives and mothers, compared to men who "aspire" to be husbands and fathers. Even some men who are willing to be husbands, don't want to be fathers.

        • WisdomIsMisery

          I'm not an Atheist but I don't go to church. I'd like to clarify that nowhere in my retorts did I ever say anything remotely derogatory about the relationship between marriage and religion. All I am saying is that no matter your reason for getting married, religious or otherwise (and I would like to note that quite a few people get married who are not religious, don't go to church, or who even if they do both are not getting married solely for religious purposes), marriage, in America, is still a legally binding agreement. There is no way around that, because it is a fact.

          While I respect your opinion and always appreciate your insights Bree, you are taking my opinion and applying it to 1) something I didn't say – regarding religion and 2) expanding it to address areas I didn't even approach – every nationality of the world. You and a few others are bringing those two categories up – and that's cool. But WisdomIsMisery can only defend what WisdomIsMisery said. Not what others said I said or not what others misinterpreted I said, and especially not what others wish I said.

          Lastly, while y'all have managed to take the context of this conversation to the edge of the universe and back, no one refuted my original comment:

          "Yeah, I don't see this conversation being very productive. Again, I repeat, is a relationship not inclusive of all these things, ESPECIALLY in 2012? Love? Partnership? Friendship? Work? Happiness? Compromise? Commitment? Family?"

          No why? Because what I said as true. Relationships come before marriage. Y'all can throw a million justifications for marriage at me, but this will still be fact. Thus, as I said, marriage is an extension of a relationship. I never debated the justifications for marriage and I definitely never said religious reasons arent (or can't be) one justification. I'm not a religious guy though, which is why when the conversation went that direction – by others guidance, not my own – I remained on the sidelines, which is the place I will return to now.

        • BlueSteele

          I respect where you're coming from WIM. Our difference of opinion is that you view marriage is an extension of a pre-existing relationship whereas I see it the other way around, marriage is the only "real" relationship. All else is preparation in my book. Semantics maybe.

          I do have to ask though…do you ever want to get married? #MaybeTooPersonal

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          To be clear, I was responding to Bree (in case this comment was misplaced or that wasn't clear). No shots.

          Ok, I see what you're saying. I don't agree, but I respect your opinion. To answer your question, I plan to get married and have been moving in that direction for years. However, being married doesnt define me or necessarily my actions. If I find a woman I want to marry (and whom wants to marry me), I will get married. If not, I wont.

        • Bree

          Wis, even though your not religious, the fact remains that marriage was First in the Bible. It was an institution for man & woman to be together to procreate in the beginning of time, Created by God, Not Man, long before it was a legally binding institution involving the government. In biblical times there were no " long relationships or engagements" just marriages. What do you think that means? Why do you think that was?
          I apologize for going off on a tangent. I know I do that sometimes. I'm at work when I'm on here. I'm rushing sometimes and commenting in between things I'm doing so sometimes my comments are rushed and hurried. Your correct though, you can easily have all the things you have in a relationship in a marriage. However, you won't get the same legal benefits and you will have to deal with the scrutiny and judgement of family and friends on why your not married. Also there are legal rights that you lose if you have children when your not married to the mother/father of your child.

        • Bree

          For women yes it has a lot to do with security. Marriage for women is like insurance covered with a security blanket. They are guaranteed protection and care for as long as they are married. Even when they get divorced most men feel obligated to look after the woman who used to be their wife and is the mother of their children. In society a Husband/Wife is held in much higher regard and much more respected than a girlfriend/boyfriend, unless you've been together so long it could be a "common law" marriage.

        • Bree

          There are benefits for the man as well in a marriage. If your with someone for 10 years or more but not married to them and have children with them and they become ill and go into a coma and their family wants to pull the plug then the family takes precedence over what you want because your not the spouse. You could want to leave the person on life support but the family may say no and have every right to have the plug pulled. Or vice versa, you could want the plug pulled and the family may choose to keep your s/o on life support. You could lose your job and need health insurance. Your girlfriend couldn't put you on her insurance. But if she were your wife she could. If your divorced you can collect a portion of your ex-spouses pension. This is applicable to the man and the woman as long as they do not remarry. I know people doing this right now. A man and a woman.
          In fact, many of the laws regarding marriage in and of itself apply to both the man and the woman. Also as far as children are concerned don't be so sure that just because your with a woman and you have kids together and live together that the state recognizes you as a "family unit" if your not married to the mother.

        • Bree

          It seems like men who feel that marriage benefits women more than them, and know that divorce laws benefit women more than them are hard pressed to get married for those reasons and let that stop them from getting married. Like they have this fear of marrying the wrong woman and losing all their material and worldly possessions. To me these reasons are unfounded.

        • Bree

          It makes no sense to Not marry a woman you truly love and care about and run from her because your so deathly afraid of marriage and the responsibility of marriage and what could potentially happen if the marriage should end. Why is it that men aren't mindful of the wonderful benefits of marriage. Talk to some people who have a great marriage, and let them tell you how good it is having someone there for you, a helpmate and someone that you can count on, and never ever have to be lonely again. Can you have that in a long term long lasting relationship where your Not married, yes.

        • Bree

          But why would you selfishly begrudge a woman the opportunity to be your wife and the mother of your child? If you love and care for a woman enough to just be her man for years and years and years on end, then you not loving her enough to commit to her and marry her makes no sense. We commit to 2 year cell phone contracts and mortgages, leases and loan terms and payments all the time, but not to each other. And if you love a woman enough to stay with her for years and years then doesn't she deserve your commitment to her legally and with a ring? Otherwise, why are you with her if you don't love her enough to want to marry her?
          To me it seems like many men want an easy out, and want to avoid major responsibilities, while they still have all the benefits of marriage and a family and that is not fair to the woman. I'm not saying this is how you are, but I know quite a few men who feel this way. ijs.

        • http://katwebbmusic.com KitKatCuty84

          The site hasn't been letting me comment over one sentence, but you said what I was going to say. :)

        • Peter Parker

          Going on trips with your boo, buying a customed built house with your boo, raising kids, sharing cooking chores, and going out to the club every once in a while with your boo(all of which my married friends have done by their mid 30s)..Man, the life of a married man can be a good thing…I am definitely taking applications! lol

        • BlueSteele

          *Cringes at "boo"* lol

      • cynicaloptmst81

        Cool your heels, WIM, LMBO!

        Let me throw out there that I was stating that as a fact…not that its a right or wrong thing. Whether or not a man is marriage minded is neither right or wrong…its just where he is or isn't. But his choice does have an effect on the dating pool…depending on what you want out of dating. Thats ALL I'm saying. Woo woo woo to you, LOL.

        And to the rest of what you said, I said, "But, I also think that some women, for many reasons, give men so much without marriage that lots of men feel they have no incentive to commit on that level…so they don't."! So, we good, lol. I feel that. Which confirms that the dating pool for marriage minded ladies HAS taken a hit…a major one. Who cares what the reasons are. It HAS happened, lol.

        • http://singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery WisdomIsMisery

          *cuts eyes but remains quiet* Whenever a woman agrees with me, I'm secretly waiting for the other "BUT" shoe to drop. Howeverssss, for now…

          You got the juice.

        • cynicaloptmst81

          Naw, we're straight on this topic.

          My only added tidbit came from the whole traditional "man's gotta decide the boobookins (or whatever Slim calls her, LMBO) is his wife first, then he asks, then she accepts"…cause 9/10, the man asks knowing full well she's gonna say yes…little risk in that, lol. And, once in a committed rela, that whole waiting for a man to deem you worthy (or not) thing is just…you men WILL NEVER understand what that wait is like.

          #LicksFreshWounds

        • http://katwebbmusic.com KitKatCuty84

          "And, once in a committed rela, that whole waiting for a man to deem you worthy (or not) thing is just…you men WILL NEVER understand what that wait is like."

          True true.

        • Bree

          Preach Cyn!

        • Bree

          Church & Tabernacle!

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          cynicaloptmst81: "Whether or not a man is marriage minded is neither right or wrong…its just where he is or isn't. But his choice does have an effect on the dating pool…depending on what you want out of dating…the dating pool for marriage minded ladies HAS taken a hit…a major one. Who cares what the reasons are."

          Nicely played, young lady. Nicely played.

          But also keep in mind WIMs comment of how women didn't want him when he was young, and Thoth's comment about women ignoring good guys until they get bored of the bad boys or are out of options.

          Ultimately the question is which group is larger: the guys that don't want to get married (for whatever reason), or the young guys/good guys that are being ignored?

        • cynicaloptmst81

          "Ultimately the question is which group is larger: the guys that don't want to get married (for whatever reason), or the young guys/good guys that are being ignored?"

          Maybe if a good guy would start a "good guys being overlooked" database or website or something, we'd have a better idea of the count…and the ladies would know where to look, lol.

      • Sith King Jordan

        "Is it not possible that this is reflective of the fact that it takes a man longer to develop the desirable qualities that would even make him husband-material in 2012"

        great point. they aren't seeking potential, they're seeking final product (or as close to final product as possible)

        *salute*

    • J. Crawford

      I proposed at 19 years old t omy girlfriend of 6 years and got turned down. yet we are Still in a Relationship. She's Not Ready and I Understand that, I also Love this Woman and "waiting" for her to finish college and get herself established so then she would Be Ready. I'm 24 years old now and STILL want to spend the rest of my life with my s/o; Nothing Changed from my propsal except that I want to marry her even more than I did at 19.

      I've seen ahd had Many Women come and go, my gf and I broke up and I dated and slept with other girls as a Single Man but I Knew who had my Heart, who I had Supporting me when I was at my Lowest, who was there when I had No Job and when my Grandparents Died. There are Men under 30 who Are Ready for Marriage and No, it Wasn't Easy for me when I Fell in Love back in 2006 and it Hasn't gotten Easier in 2012 going on 2013

      • cynicaloptmst81

        My opinion? You are the exception and not the rule.

        I said "less" marriage minded men…not "no" marriage minded men.

        Interesting story though…and kudos to you for hanging in there with her.

  • Stephen

    I also think that, in communities with high numbers of unemployed and underemployed men or a with a shortage in the sheer numbers of men, men in general and the employed men in particular are so much more in demand that it is easier for them to get married. Basic economics dictate that scarcity leads to demand.

  • TmD

    I have always prescribed to the notion that it is much easier for a man to find a good woman than it is for a woman to find a good man. I dont know if that is based on the number of women vs. men….or based on personal situation I have witnessed…but it seems that way.

  • Philly

    Dating is not easier for men. At least not for the average joe. the scales are totally tipped in women favor. Sure there are more women then men, however, they are all going for one type of man. Which puts the rest up to a wild goose chase.
    I'm finding out women have all the options when it comes to dating, they don't even have to bring anything quality to the table anymore to find a man. But a man has to have everything in place before he can get chosen.

    • Bree

      Philly, Not True. If you as a man are going for Paula Patton, Gabrielle Union, Alicia Keyes type women or gold-digging women then yeah those types of women may go for only certain types of men, and if u don't fit that bill, they aren't checking for you. If you are open to practically any race, culture, ethnicity, type, and look of woman then it definitely widens your pool significantly. How big your dating options are imo is relative to who and what your willing to be open to. I've seen people married to handicapped people, I've seen people married to "little people", I've known blind people that are married, and mentally challenged people married with children, and I know big full-figured people who are married. I know several interracial couples as well. Not just black and white, but black and Asian, Asian and white, Middle Eastern and black, black and hispanic, Caribbean and black, etc etc etc.

      • Lurkness Monster

        Bree,with all due respect, you're wrong. An average joe of any race will have a hard time dating in his 20s. And while you can say "date an average jane", the truth of the matter is that even average-looking women tend to have higher standards and don't check for average joes. This is especially true in the black community where you'll have 7s and even 6s trying to snag dudes way out of their league. Throw in the fact that almost any woman can get attention from guys (at least from their teens to their 20s) and Philly's comment does hold true.

        For an average black man (who's not a 10, 9, 8) who wants to date a black woman, the dating game is a mini-hell until his 30s (assuming he has a decent job/career/is not fugly/has no kids/financially stable).

        And for an average black man to get a girl outside of his race, it's probably just as difficult because most decent white/asian girls looking to date interracially chase the alpha black males.

        This is a MAJOR issue in our community in terms of how our women go on national media screaming that they can't find a man but at the same time overlook people who may not be the flashiest, loudest, alpha-like but who are doing positive things with their lives in the present so that they can have a better future. It seems that women want to reap what they don't have to sow. So in that respect, women do have the upper hand in dating.

  • Thoth

    My hopes for this site are fading fast, but I have a few thoughts on this….

    Can men date easier? Yes, but only for the simple reason that there are more women than men. That even that gets fractured when you realize that most women claim to want one kind of man yet choose another. So the better questions is do GOOD men have it easier when it comes to dating? And the answer is absolutely not. Women treat good men like spare tires. They don't care about them until they need them. They live the fast life, then when the phone stops ringing or a kid pops up, then they go looking for a good man to help put everything back together. Hell, the black church is filled with these women.

    But I noticed two things happening here, and since I'm black, I'll focus on my people. No disrespect to anyone else. The first thing I'm noticing is black men are doing what black women used to do (and still want to do.) Women used to have "suitors", you know, multiple men that would compete for a woman's love and affection. Well, men have started doing this. The mindset is now, "hey, there's more of them than me. Let's have them show me why I should pick one of them." Black women don't like this and that's why you see comments like "men need to choose to be husbands." It's not fun on the other side of the "courtship." I don't see many people saying that women need to start acting like wives. I guess just being asked to be married all of a sudden turns a woman into wife material.

    The second thing (and the hard truth) is if a man wants to marry you, he will. The real issue may be some of you women may not be wife material. You blame men, tell men they need to step it up, etc… yet how many of you have looked in the mirror and said "Am I the person a man would want to marry?" You all think you are, but is that the reality? Probably not but it's just easier to blame men isn't it. At some point you have to self-evaluate and many women, especially black women don't do this. Which could explain the very low marriage rate among black women….oh right, that's black men fault too right? A man will marry the woman he feels is right. If he's playing the field, then you're not the one he's looking for. This is just a reality. Either prove that you will make a good wife or move on.

    Ladies, you can't expect him to do all the work while you just sit back with your feet up. A relationship is 50/50, not 70/30. Make your case.

    • BriA

      Addressing the first part of your statement: I am soooooo over this whole "good guy" thing and how there is just this abudance of good guys out there who are just looking for a women to love and cherish. But, they just can't win because women can't get enough of these bad guys. O_o I'm sorry, but this is the battle cry for men who constantly try to get women who are, for a lack of better words, out of their league. These women turn you "good guys" down, so you get mad and go for the "But, I'm a good guy. Wait until her butt is sagging and she has 5 kids, and Tyrone is in jail, then she will want me." How many of you "good, average guys" are trying to date "good, average women????" Cuz, let me tell you, I have dated some self-professed "good, average guys" in my life and they have turned out to be anything but good! Let's be real, a lot of guys are looking for upgrades. If you get one girl, you figure you can get something better.

      • oh ok…

        Honestly, let me agree w/ "How many of you "good, average guys" are trying to date "good, average women"????" Seriously, THE TRUTH!
        Before I got in the rela. I'm in now, I just stopped caring &/ or thinking "maybe" while dating.
        Like guys want these magical hoochies/nun/teacher/student/sugamomma/whateva…just dumb!
        lbvvs

      • Thoth

        You actually just proved one of my other points. Always blame the guy, which you just did. Once again, whatever a man makes a point about women, instead of women considering the point turns it around on men. It's the typical "women are perfect, the rest of the world is messed up" attitude. This attitude kills black women.

        You've dated some "self-professed good, average guys" huh? So the guy lied to you about who he really was and you fell for it. So the question is is it their fault for lying to you or is it your fault for falling for their lie? Of course it's there fault right? I mean, to think women should take SOME responsibility for what happens in a relationship is just insane…..right?

        And for the "guys trying to get women out of their league" comment. It's these same women who after living the fast life start looking for that guy who was so "out of her league". Is there such a thing as a good, average woman? Women change like the seasons yet want a man to be honest and upstanding. Women created the current dating environment, yet like your post and the many like them, refuse to look at what you did. Women blame men. That's the game plan.

        • BriA

          I'm not sure if you even really like women, but whatevs. And I don't take responsibility for other people's action. If a person is going to lie, they are going to lie. Simple as that. Men chosing to lie IS their fault. But, whether or not I stick around and continue to believe those lies, rests solely on me. However, I have learned from my mistakes and I know better now.

          Most women, including myself, who is single/young(ish) and/or child-less are NOT looking for this super handsome, rich, out of our league men. However, If that man just happend to come along, granted he was respectul and had other great qualities, no one would turn him down. Many of us just want someone who respects us, treat us well, and are at least working on their goals, if they haven't quite achieved them yet.

          I just think some men have these ideas based on this supposed "shortage" of good black man that they simply can have ANY woman they want. And they get all in their feelings when they realize unless they are extremely rich/handsome, it's not going to happen.

        • Thoth

          Now we've enter into the next stage of these types of discussions, where you question my sexuality because I have a different opinion and do not cater to women like most of these guys on this cite just looking for some props.

          Once again I'll state that women have helped create the current state of dating (especially in the black community). It would be refreshing at some point for black women to own a share of the mess that exists in our community, but alas "just blame black men" is still on the menu. Are Black men 100% innocent? No, of course not, but I don't see the articles telling women that they too are the problem. In fact Ebony just came out with an article about this same topic and the solution was that women need even MORE control over men. Women want men to be men and lead but want all the power. A leader can't lead without power.

          Here's some food for thought. Black women between the ages of 35-44 are the only group of women that have a lower marriage rate than the male group in their race. This doesn't exist in the White, Asian, or Hispanic race. This mean that Black men are getting married, but Black women are not. Also Black women in their early 40s are 31% less likely to have been married versus 9% of White women, 11% of Asian women, and 12% of Hispanic women in the same age group. The numbers would suggest that Black women might need to look at themselves since all numbers show that Black women are the main group that is extremely hurt. But no, keep blaming men. How's that working out by the way? *Looking at numbers* not that good I see.

          And to avoid the third stage of these types of arguments (which of course is how the media portrays Black women, that's why no other group of men are marrying us) my WHOLE point was just for Black women to look in the mirror and self-assess to make sure you're wife material. Make your case to why you would make a good wife. You want the man to do that right? Well, you (Black women) need to do that as well. 50/50 not 70/30.

        • BriA

          Actually, I wasn't questioning your sexuality. When I said "you don't like women," I didn't mean that in a you are homosexual type way. I meant that you seem to see women (particularly BW) as so flawed and don't have much respect for us. But, ummmm ok. O_o Also, who is blaming BM? I sure am not. I take responsibility for my, and only my dating mistakes I made.

          And while Black women do get married less than others, we are more likely to stay in long-term relationships or cohabitate. Although I do believe strongly in marriage, not being mmarried doesn't mean that you are single or without someone.
          I wasn't going to even mention BW and the media, but I see you have been in many of these "debates" before. We obviously aren't going to agree, so I'm done beating that horse.

        • oh ok…

          Man, whatever thats the point. Period. A guy called himself a good guy and turned out to be anything but. Its subjective. He prolly was a good guy, but just not for me.
          I will blame "the" men though. In the end I dated them and thats my opinion and right.
          Just as anyone should…if you lie then they are at fault.

        • monique

          You've dated some "self-professed good, average guys" huh? So the guy lied to you about who he really was and you fell for it. I find this logic a bit unbalanced.

          Using this same notion…you are a victim of identity thieft and someone steals all of your hard earned money…is its his or her fault for stealing or your fault for working hard and amassing wealth.

          The shame is wrongfully placed. Should a person be more careful and aware yes but blamed for the indescretions of other most definitely NO. Unfortunately, its that kind of thinking that keeps immoral behaviors rampant and justified.

  • bellatrice1

    On average, I meet about ONE guy per year that I really like – That's not even including whether he's marriage minded…smh. The odds are certainly not in MY favor. But, I digress…

    Since what makes a woman wife material is subjective, so is a man's ability to find a wife. If a guy doesn't want much in a woman, or only desires qualities in a wife that MANY women possess, it will be easier for HIM to find a wife. Is it easier in general for a man to find a wife?? I''ll say yes for many of the reasons given by other commenters, mainly that men ultimately decide to be in a committed rel, propose, and marry.

    However, let's just say, if you're a man in the top 25% (mentioned above), it's probably not very difficult to find a wife, but if you are in the lower 25%, and you want a woman in the top 25% or even the middle 50%, you will find it difficult to find a wife. Basically, I think the supply and demand theory applies here.
    My recent post Answers to Your Common Dating Questions

  • Bree

    I believe there truly is someone for everyone. You just have to pick one person and stick with them.
    If people didn't have this great fear of commitment and marriage and spend so much time stressing about the possible stuff that could go wrong, and stressing about how they will be able to stay together and focusing on all the reasons why they shouldn't be together and making excuses, and settling, and being selfish and learned how to love themselves, and love each other the right way, more people would be married.
    Also suggest googling Nisa Muhammed.

  • Lurkness Monster

    I think there are several issues with the dating "game" in our community.

    1. Black women (especially those in their 20s) tend to believe that their grad school degrees, professional titles, salaries make them entitled to any man (read: alpha male) they want. The problem is, however, there's a 4-1 female to male ratio in professional/corporate jobs and/or institutions of higher learning. So when the majority of these high-achieving women tend to seek the few alpha males to date and have a serious relationship with, they're really competing with like-minded women, younger women, and those with non-corporate/non-traditional educations and jobs. Of course, many women are going to feel bitter because the number simply don't work in their favor.

    • Lurkness Monster

      2. While there is a 4-1 female to male ration in professional/educated settings, the only men who really get to take advantage of these numbers are the alpha males (i.e, 9s and 10s with steady/great jobs, income, education). So women will flock to these sort of men but will leave a substantial amount of eligible brothers out in the cold. These ignored brothers could be 6s and 7s but a large amount of them are attaining college/grad school degrees and mapping out professional careers for their futures. Many of them also have steady income and wouldn't mind a serious commitment from women. However, these guys will likely suffer from no attention from sistas until their 30s. It makes no sense for many black women to scream at the top of their lungs that "there are no good men left" when they're all trying to fight for the same elite guys instead of opening their eyes and looking at that guy in their same classes or their same jobs.

      • Lurkness Monster

        3. Black women also tend to look for serious, committed relationships far too late in their lives. They tend to believe that because of their degrees, jobs, material possessions, etc. that they can play the dating field and, at the snap of their fingers, snag an elite, "worthy" man. However, biology shows us that once women hit their 30s, their power in the dating game crumbles. The alpha males they chase have no obligation to date these successful, yet again professional women when they can continue to play the field and date younger girls (girls in their 20s). At this point, these now-30+ year old women start to "lower" their standards and turn to the 6s and 7s that they passed over in their 20s to settle down, marry, procreate with. You'll find that these were the same women who wouldn't look at these dudes when they were in their 20s because of their looks (too short, too dark) or because they weren't "exciting" or lacked "swag". But, as time passes, average joes (for the most part) developestablished careers and live healthy lives (financially and professionally) and begin to have an expanded choice of dating options.

        • Lurkness Monster

          4. The average joes become the alpha males. When they achieve a certain level of success (likely in their 30s) the average joes can make up for lost time in their 20s by slaying the these 30-some-odd year old women (the same women who ignored them in their 20s) or can also go younger and enjoy the dating field as well. In this sense, these men do become alpha men in their own right. Most of the time, however, these average joes-turned-alphas settle with the women who saw them for who they were while they were making something out of themselves in their 20s (and were being shunned by other girls every which way). But with all this said, the many otherwise successful black women are out of luck when it comes to dating in their 30s.

        • Lurkness Monster

          My advice is for women to make smart, sensible choices when it comes to who they decide to date/sleep with when they're in their 20s. If these women are interested in getting married, they should use the 20s to build towards that instead of acting like their dating decisions in their 20s will not have consequences when they're ready to settle down. Until this happens, this issue will remain prevalent in our community and many 30+ year old successful black women will find themselves lonely and single.

          My advice to men is bide your time by focusing on school and work. Although you are in a world of hurt and rejection, brighter days are ahead once you get that grad school degree and that baller job. At that point, you can have any woman you want. But be careful who you date/sleep with because the dating game can get reckless

          It's like the old saying: Women are cars, men are real estate. With more years and mileage, cars depreciate in value. With more years and maintenance, real estate appreciates in value.

          /rant

  • Plan~B

    What makes dating easier for men? The sheer ratio of women to men in this country. There's just more out there for men to choose from. Also the pressure to have a mate is not as prevalent with men so it creates a more relaxed dating model for us.

    What makes dating easier for women? The number of thirsty guys who are willing to do anything to get with women. Women have long been able to manipulate the male population quite easily in terms of dating.

    Is it easier for a man to find a wife than it is for a woman to find a husband? Yes it is easier for a man to find a wife simply because the pressure is on women to marry…not us. The entire ceremony is about the women…the husband is the secondary piece on wedding day. Men can marry when they get ready but the window closes on womens chances to marry so this allows men to have the advantage. Now finding the RIGHT person to marry is a different story. That is difficult for both genders.