I’m a Man…But Does That Mean I Can’t Be a Feminist?

protest-11

On the surface, I portray many characteristics and mannerisms that are associated with manliness and virility (my twitter handle is BrazenlyVirile). I drink my whiskey neat or with two ice cubes, I like working with my hands, I love a nice steak (medium well porterhouse), I drink dark lagers, and I love basketball and football.  One could possibly think that my actions and thoughts would be 100% testosterone driven. This would be the furthest thing from the truth. I’m also an avid reader and one thing that reading (the right types of books) will do is expand your scope of compassion and insight. In some capacity, I’ve always had a sense of empathy but experiencing others’ points of views through words has allowed me to want people to have freedom from the –isms; including racism, classism, and sexism — which is just shit that I can’t tolerate.

“Now only a fool loves that hard without asking the same in return. So yeah, I demand that black men fight sexism with the same passion they battle racism. I want you to annihilate anything that endangers sistas’ welfare—including violence against women—because my survival walks hand in hand with yours. So, my brotha, if loving y’all fiercely and wanting it back makes me a feminist then I’m a feminist. So be it.”

This is a quote that stood out to me from the book When Chickenheads Come Home to Roost by Joan Morgan.  I’ve also read the work of bell hooks, Angela Davis, and Ntozake Shange, which have left me with feelings of reverie. This has led me to ask certain questions of myself. I love black women and I will always defend them. I look at my mother, my sister, my niece, my girlfriend and I know when I look towards them I only have feelings of love and affection. Despite this, I’m still left with certain questions. Based on the quote above if I want all of those things is it possible that I, being a man, can be a feminist? Feminism is all about equality and not exclusion right?

OLYMPUS DIGITAL CAMERA“B/c I don’t have such a narrow view of feminism. It comes down to a belief that women are as valuable as men and believing in/supporting women’s autonomy over their lives. It’s not hard to be a feminist, really.”  skinnyblackgirl  (feminist and one of my favorite writers without a book deal). Based on this I wonder why more men don’t self-identify as feminists. Is it because of blatant misogyny in that they really don’t like women or perhaps the more likely case is that they don’t want to be associated with anything rooted in the word feminine?

I’m not naïve enough to actually believe that everyone wants 100% gender equality. I believe a majority of people (myself included) would like to see gender equality but only to a certain point. In order for that to happen each sex would have to ease up on the stranglehold they have on the societal advantages they possess. I asked my timeline if they felt within the context of feminism; equal rights between a man and woman in regard to bringing a child into the world were necessary. I can’t say that I was I wasn’t disappointed in some of the answers I received. It seemed that some women were ok with gender equality as long as only women unilaterally decided for both parties involved that they would both be parents. On the other hand if men also want true gender equality we have to be willing to give up our domination when in comes to equal pay and respect in the workplace.

From what I can tell and have gathered is that feminism is a complex concept when it really shouldn’t be. In a utopian society, everyone would be equal regardless of gender, race, nationality, religion, sexual orientation, etc. but we don’t live in a perfect world. Women of different races can’t even come together on common ground when it comes to battling sexism (check out #SolidarityIsForWhiteWomen on twitter). Some women I know feel as if the fight for equality between the genders is a fight that should be championed by women and women alone. This reminds me of Malcolm X stating early on that the fight for equality for African-Americans had no room for Caucasians. Despite a lot of imperfections I’ll reiterate that I self-identify as a “womanist”  along with anything else that calls for the equal treatment of people.

Do you believe that men can be feminists? Women, do you think that the push for gender equality can be helped by men? 

Tunde

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  • http://twelvepointbuck.tumblr.com/ 12 Point Buck

    "Feminism is all about equality and not exclusion right?"

    If you wrote this article with that definition of feminism in your mind, then I can't really fault your logic.

    Unfortunately, equality over exclusion is not what feminism is all about. This sage advice comes to mind: "Actions speak louder than words." Or "Don't talk about it, BE about it." If you look at what the feminist ideology promotes, you'll quickly find that equality isn't reeeeally the name of the game.

    You see, under the veil of equality, feminism has quietly threaded itself into the fabric of society. That isht is a household word now, one that's somehow identified with civil rights and LGBT rights. It has such a positive connotation that NOT being pro-feminism often gets you labeled a misogynist.

    As a quick example, feminist ideology will say "men make more than women and it aint fair– pay women more or pay men less." It sounds good on paper, except for the stats reporting that women with equal experience and skill-level to men get paid the same (or more).

    Pay women MORE even if they're not as qualified != equality
    Pay men LESS even if they're more qualified != equality

    Feminist ideology is about rationalizing the shift of power, either towards women or away from men. To me, this is not equality as much as a game of tug-o-war. And eventually somebody's gonna fall in the mud.

    • http://www.OpinionatedMale.com Mr SoBo

      12 point, bro….I don't know how you do it, but you do it. You have a way of encapsulating points so well and concise, I read with envy. Well flipping said. If only I could articulate it as well as you.

      Feminism is the old ball in hand trick. Misdirection.
      By aligning itself with the efforts of other more noble struggles, it has managed to completely misdirect the populations attention away from the placing of the ball in their pocket. Feminism is a sham. A masquerade of mythology. And before my beloved women get riled up, this is not a swipe at women. I believe in equality and I am for it in the instances that inequality ACTUALLY exists. But feminism has proven itself to be about usurping, not equalizing.

      I am anti-feminism, not anti-women and certainly not anti-equality. But it must be clear that feminism is not equality. It relies heavily on propaganda to continue the stretch the divide between men and women in order to remain a formidable force in society. If the patriarchal system we reside under is fcuked up, I don't think replacing it with the anti Christ is the solution. #JustSayNoToFeminism. lol.

      Any hoot, Men can certainly be feminists. However male feminists are more commonly referred to as White Knights and Super Save Ems. #ShotsFired

      Mr. SoBo
      My recent post Saving Black Love: 8 Ways To A Better Us…Not You…US!

    • Paul B.

      Well stated.

    • Adonis

      @12 Point Buck

      They REALLY use that “equality” argument as a smoke screen for female supremacy. And female supremacy is just as bad as white supremacy, if you are keeping score.

      Basically you are going out of your way to help one group while going out of your way to undermine another group.

      This thread is going to be fun.

    • Animate

      I'm going to have to disagree with this in part, specifically with the example you gave. Feminism to me and those that I've spoken with is leaning more towards equality. They aren't asking to be paid more for doing less. They are asking to be paid the same for doing the same. Most aren't looking to bring men down, just want to be on the same playing field when all things are considered.
      My recent post The most powerful scene I've ever seen in a video game

      • Adonis

        @Animate

        The pay scale thing is more myth than man.

        Alot of times, women do not travel as much, work as hard & value family.

        Meaning that men make more sacrifice.

        Doesn’t mean that pay inequality does not exist. Just means that the feminist argument has holes.

        • payne well

          "Alot of times, women do not travel as much, work as hard & value family."

          Please elaborate.
          My recent post What is right to you, might be true

        • Adonis

          Give me a sec.

        • Adonis

          Wrong e-mail

        • EliD

          Women don't work as hard or value family? I think it's more acceptable for a man to be away from his family. And yes that does allow for some restrictions regarding your capabilities. But traveling does not equate working harder. And in fact, working women who are mothers have more of a sacrifice than men. It's either you're sacrificing the success at work or you're sacrificing the quality time with your family.

        • Adonis

          Value family over higher pay. There is only so many hours in a day. Clarification

          @PayneWell

          The Department of Labor’s Time Use Survey, for example, finds that the average full-time working man spends 8.14 hours a day on the job, compared to 7.75 hours for the full-time working woman. Employees who work more likely earn more. Men working five percent longer than women alone explains about one-quarter of the wage gap.

          If I said men “work harder”, my bad. I meant to say work longer. Men put in more hours.

          There are numerous other factors that affect pay. Most fundamentally, men and women tend to gravitate toward different industries. Feminists may charge that women are socialized into lower-paying sectors of the economy. But women considering the decisions they’ve made likely have a different view. Women tend to seek jobs with regular hours, more comfortable conditions, little travel, and greater personal fulfillment. Often times, women are willing to trade higher pay for jobs with other characteristics that they find attractive.

          Men, in contrast, often take jobs with less desirable characteristics in pursuit of higher pay. They work long hours and overnight shifts. They tar roofs in the sun, drive trucks across the country, toil in sewer systems, stand watch as prison guards, and risk injury on fishing boats, in coal mines, and in production plants. Such jobs pay more than others because otherwise no one would want to do them.

          Women ain’t really trying to become engineers over becoming a schoolteachers.

          And again, women ain’t trying to make the necessary sacrifices.

          Unsurprisingly, children play an important role in men and women’s work-life decisions. Simply put, women who have children or plan to have children tend to be willing to trade higher pay for more kid-friendly positions. In contrast, men with children typically seek to earn more money in order to support children, sometimes taking on more hours and less attractive positions to do so.

          I am not saying discrimination does not exist.

          But this is analogus to the “ugly dark skin” argument.

          Don’t put Whoopi Goldberg up against Stacey Dash & tell me dark skin black men are colorstruck. Come with a better argument

          Same thing with the pay gap accusation.

          If women were cheaper to keep her & she was just as valuable to the company as a man, employers would lay off the men & employ women at a discount.

          It’s Time That We End the Equal Pay Myth

          Good day

        • payne well

          "Example, finds that the average full-time working man spends 8.14 hours a day on the job, compared to 7.75 hours for the full-time working woman. Employees who work more likely earn more"
          Working longer does not equate to working 'better' or "more efficiently". If i can get my work done and it's exceptional in 3 hours, but yet Jim Jones takes 6 hours to finish the same exact work, Jim Jones should be fired. Also since women are more like to take care of children it would be beneficial for them to complete their work in a quicker fashion so they can go home and tend to Jim's home and their children. Longer time does not equate quality work.
          When you generalize things such as "Women tend to seek jobs with regular hours, more comfortable conditions, little travel, and greater personal fulfillment. Often times, women are willing to trade higher pay for jobs with other characteristics that they find attractive." it's hard to understand. In the corporate world, there are an increasing amount of female executives who travel weekly(such as I did for two years). Furthermore, I would think many men would (well people in general) want higher pay with less work and more comfortable conditions. It's an American thing in fact. Many laborers are not getting a high pay. I know movers, who are receiving 10-15 dollars an hour, whereas executive admins are getting paid 40,000 year. If that was the case we would have more men leaving corporate America to work in construction, and other hands on technical fields.
          "Men, in contrast, often take jobs with less desirable characteristics in pursuit of higher pay. They work long hours and overnight shifts. They tar roofs in the sun, drive trucks across the country, toil in sewer systems, stand watch as prison guards, and risk injury on fishing boats, in coal mines, and in production plants. Such jobs pay more than others because otherwise no one would want to do them."

        • payne well

          Paying a man more just because he is capable of potentially doing a physical job makes no sense. My husband could lift 200 lbs which I cannot. True. However we both work as cashiers at a beauty shop and do the same work of lifting up to 25 lbs, but because he could do more physical labor than I, he should be paid more based on sheer fact. False. If we do the exact same job, the only reason why there should be a difference in pay would be based on education and experience.
          "Women ain't really trying to become engineers over becoming a schoolteachers.
          And again, women ain't trying to make the necessary sacrifices."

          Women are trying to become more than school teachers, because that is not where the money is at. Women are going to college and obtaining higher degrees of education so they can receive higher pay. Going to college isn't a walk in the park, look at the stats of black men and women graduating. It's no easy task.

          My recent post What is right to you, might be true

        • payne well

          "Unsurprisingly, children play an important role in men and women’s work-life decisions. Simply put, women who have children or plan to have children tend to be willing to trade higher pay for more kid-friendly positions. In contrast, men with children typically seek to earn more money in order to support children, sometimes taking on more hours and less attractive positions to do so."

          What sense would it make for me to decrease my income, if children are going to increase my expenses? Simple economics. less money+higher expenses=crazy broke. People (not just women), want jobs that are comfortable and pay more. If a job can't pay you more, you are less like to leave your current position unless you just love what you do or have a solid background. If you are a single mother, taking on more hours to raise your kid is necessary. How many of us where raised by single mothers who worked long hours or multiple jobs? I definitely was one of those children.

          "But this is analogus to the "ugly dark skin" argument.
          Don't put Whoopi Goldberg up against Stacey Dash & tell me dark skin black men are colorstruck. Come with a better argument
          Same thing with the pay gap accusation."

          My recent post What is right to you, might be true

        • payne well

          That analogy would work better if you compared Stacey Dash to Lauren London. Comparing two apples aren't fair, because at the end of the day, you know you will get an apple. Regardless if one is bruised or not. However, if you compare an apple to an orange, your results may vary.

          "If women were cheaper to keep her & she was just as valuable to the company as a man, employers would lay off the men & employ women at a discount."

          This sentence doesn't even aid in your argument, but everyone has to have a punchline. If employers did that then we would have sexual discrimination, where i would strongly advocate those men to sue.

          My recent post What is right to you, might be true

        • Larry

          "Paying a man more just because he is capable of potentially doing a physical job makes no sense."

          It doesn't?? If someone has a skill set that another does not possess is that skill set not seen as valuable? I believe his main point was that (generally speaking) due to physical capabilities of women vs men that some job areas are dominated by men. Which is just a fact….nothing right or wrong or anything to really argue about to be honest.

        • payne well

          "If someone has a skill set that another does not possess is that skill set not seen as valuable?"

          If the job position is answer phone calls to tell people their account is overdrawn, but you can't lift 90lbs, no you shouldn't get paid more. It's not in the job description. If you are a commissioned artist, but you speak spanish, no you shouldn't get paid more because that has nothing to do with painting.

          If we are in a physical field and we are doing the same job, and our job description says that we are to life 50bs, I do not see why you would pay someone because they can lift 400lbs, specifically if there is nothing in that store that weighs that much.

          If you and I work in retail, but i have a degree in basket weaving, I get that I am degreed, but it really does not pertain to this area of life.

          Perhaps we read it two different ways.
          My recent post What is right to you, might be true

  • Adonis

    1. This feminism topic has so many f**kin’ layers to it.

    And then throw in the negro people, It is a ZOO. I want to address everything, and I would love to hear the response.

    2. I am the closest thing to true feminism/pro-women there is.

    The funny thing is, when you hold women to egalitarian/feminist ideals, they falter every time & then start crying for patriarchal benefits (paid dates by men, men proposing, men leading relationships, households, family)

    More on that later.

    3. As far as WHITE feminism and WHITE patriarchy. That is irrelevant for this post.

    It is easy to institute whatever system you want when you have tons of money & resources to play with.

    And those institutions were not intended for black men & women.

    —————–

    4a. On Black Male Feminists aka simps, manginas

    I would rock with these guys if, black women were throwing p*ssy at them for their loyalty.

    However if you check any woman’s h*efax, feminist or not, they all sleep with men who contradict their feminist leanings.

    And these women would give a rapist some p*ssy before a male feminist.

    4b. Always remember,

    TODAY’s BLACK WOMEN are NOT LOYAL to BLACK MEN

    Either she has NO OPTIONS & BLACK MEN is the only men that mess with her.

    Or she believe in her mind, BLACK MEN are KING.

    And when she says BM, she is only talking about the small number of BM she finds attractive.

    And when BLACK WOMEN support BLACK MEN, they support them, BECAUSE it is in their (BW’s) best interest to. End. Of.

    5. IMO, if you ask & watch most BLACK men & women.

    Collectively Black Men overwhelmingly support egalitarian ideals.

    And

    Collectively Black Women overwhelmingly support patriarchal ideals.

    Which is ironic, but makes sense.

    In a true-to-the-game patriarchy (also legacy building),

    MEN bear SO MUCH responsibility for women & children, that women overwhelmingly benefit from that,

    Especially when in comes to their femininity. (That is why corporate women & single moms with no help, are unbearable socially)

    Women who CONSTANTLY have to think & lead their own lives are some of the most undateable women around

    There are exceptions to this, but I am speaking GOSPEL. Word to White Jesus.

    Black women today just don’t want to be told what to do , but they will KILL for those patriarchal/traditional benefits, especially in the dating arena.

    ————————————-

    In conclusion, I think feminists are full of sh*t.

    It reminds me of that scene (“Spies Like Us” S02E06) in Scandal when Harrison confronted those Assassins & basically talked them down from killing each other & then walked back to the office, back turned shoutin’ “Big Office Baby!”

    That is what feminism is, “Big Office Talk”.

    Which is bullsh*t for those who are NOT keepin’ score.

    Good Day

    • Adonis

      Also, feminism is problematic for a few reasons.

      1. Who is going to persecute people fairly & justly when people rape & murder.

      Even simpler, when we are hunting for male fugitives, you think are going to lead the charge & physically apprehend these negroes?

      2. When it comes to this current civilization, where we have skyscrapers, transportation & all this infrastructure to maintain, what women are puttin’ on hard hats to build or maintain anything?

      Anybody?

      3. When a 9/11, Hurricane ANYBODY (Sandy/Katrina), or any other crisis hits people unexpected, can women make anything happen without the coordination, poise, focus, determination of men?

      Or will they hide behind their gender & talk about how men should step up.

      I rest my case.

      • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

        "When a 9/11, Hurricane ANYBODY (Sandy/Katrina), or any other crisis hits people unexpected, can women make anything happen without the coordination, poise, focus, determination of men?"

        The chairwoman of the board of directors of the American Red Cross is Bonnie-McEleveen Hunter

        Women activists were at the core of relief efforts post Katrina http://www.taralconley.org/featured-articles-arch

        • Adonis

          @FeministaJones

          Good rebuttal. Not quite hit the mark.

          Basically, what I am asking? Take men totally out of the equation. Are you telling me women without no male guidance, no male physically puttin in work to lift up debris & ish. Women making it happen. That was my point.

          Men have to be somewhere in the picture. Women do not.

          The only trump card you have is that you have a WOMB. That is all. I can get men do to everything else. Doesn’t mean I want to.

        • http://www.lifeisablast.org payne well

          umm yeah! They totally could, you have female body lifters, you have women with strength, not to mention with brains that could develop a pulley system and other ideas to make lifting easier. Women tend to make things happen. When men cannot perform women are here to help. The womb just sweetens our pot.
          My recent post What is right to you, might be true

        • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

          Actually, you wrote "can women make anything happen without the coordination, poise, focus, determination of men?"

          Women did a great deal of the coordinating. Determination has no sexual assignment, neither does focus or poise. Men and women are capable of all of those.

          Then, you switched to "women without no male guidance, no male physically puttin in work to lift up debris & ish".

          When did this become about physical clean up?

          The marks being missed are from your disjointed aim.

    • Shamira

      How in the same post you can say both

      " I am the closest thing to true feminism/pro-women there is"

      AND

      "Women who CONSTANTLY have to think & lead their own lives are some of the most undateable women around "

      …..

      *slow blinks*

      • Adonis

        @Shamira my lightskin princess

        We have been through this.

        GradientLair dot com

        Intersectionality

        Nuance. Grey Area.

        We are Scandal fans, you know better.

        Women who take on alot of responsibility are not the most feminine, pleasant to be around.

        That doesn’t mean they are de-facto feminists. Or true-to-the-game patriarchs.

        (SWV’s Weak is playing, excellent song.)

        Like Feminista’s first post. I like the idea of women being equal or superior to men in spirit.

        Have your abortions
        Make your money
        Date who you want.
        Travel
        Have your relationships. Patriarchal or egalitarian or matriarchal.
        Be protected from rape & s*xual harassment.

        Be free, be free, be free.

        But applied to the real world & the endless complaining women do on what men are not doing, and based your mating choices, it is obvious that living the feminist ideals are not all that is cracked up to be.

        Also, you need better PR.
        Also, y’all suck at taking responsibility for malfeasance. In 2013

        (Now “They Don’t Know” by Jon B is playing, another excellent song)

        Good day.

    • Adonis

      Subscribed

  • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

    Feminists appreciate men who stand by and align themselves with them but ultimately they still have a us against the world mentality that the men arent allowed in, just like there were white civil rights leaders you dont hear about, feminists tend to want the platform all themselves regardless of who helped them get there (somewhat hypocritical, but i know the readership here, i’ma leave that one alone). I respect the movement, I admire the progress but I also know when i’m not wanted, i could never label myself a feminist.

    • http://www.singleblackmale.org/author/wisdomismisery/ WisdomIsMisery

      +1 Here for now.

      Will expand on my thoughts later. Good post, Tunde.

    • Paul B.

      +1

  • http://glippost.wordpress.com DarrkGable

    I can’t seebeing a male feminist. As was alluded to in the body of the post, the “-isms” are usually about restrictions and oppression of various societal groups.

    My question is, if most of the other “-isms” fit this (admittedly loosely constructed) definition, why doesn’t ” feminism”?

  • Shamira

    This is admittedly a very touchy subject for me, so I am going to keep my comment brief and refrain from extensive back and forth on the topic.

    1) A lot of people who have "issues with feminism" are walking around with the most warped perception of what it is.
    2) That said, no one can argue that the white,cisgendered feminist movement doesn't have glaring issues.
    3) I will never understand why (some) men will push back so hard on the desire of women to be viewed as just as valuable as men in society and turn into the oppression wars. Both black men and black women have it hard. No need to make it a competition.

    Peace y'all

    • http://stanoffewwords.wordpress.com Tristan

      I was expecting you to go full Kendrick in the comments….slightly disappointed

      • Shamira

        sorry, a goon gets tired sometimes. I've had some form of this argument a few too many times this year. Gotta accept that some people just don't want to face facts.

        I did have to restrain myself from clapping back once or twice though.

    • Southerngyrl_

      Your first point is the main reason why I am going to sit this one out.

      Entire cosign on this comment.

      • Shamira

        girl…explaining this mess to people who refuse to get it just drains my life force. How many times do we have to explain to people that pro woman does no inherently equal anti man??? How manyyyy?????? *wails* AWWWWL MAH LAHF I HADTA FIGHT

        • Southerngyrl_

          GIRL. Don't I know it.

          It is just crazy. CRAZY.

    • http://twelvepointbuck.tumblr.com/ 12 Point Buck

      "I will never understand why (some) men will push back so hard on the desire of women to be viewed as just as valuable as men "

      No free entitlement cookies around here– if you want to be viewed as valuable, you better be someone who IS valuable. Its an unpopular opinion, but not all people are valuable just for being born into this world– some people actually weigh the boat down. Not saying we should kick off those who dont pull their own weight. But we def. shouldn't value them more than the people who keep the boat afloat.

      I value people of value.

      • Shamira

        You just said that an entire gender needs to prove they deserve to be on equal footing with the rest of the human race, unironically.

        Nope, not doing this, nope.

        For the record, though, "as valuable as" =/= being uniquely valuable. Syntax matters.

        • http://twelvepointbuck.tumblr.com/ 12 Point Buck

          My post was gender-neutral. I was referring to all people, not singling out a gender. Any person in general who doesnt provide value shouldnt be considered as valuable as someone who does.

          But if you thought I wrote my whole post to be about women, then you might be valuing them too highly, ironically.

        • Adonis

          @Shamira

          I will have to co-sign @12 pt buck.

          However women are valuable as women, facilitators of reproduction.

          Women trying to be men are worthless. Except if they are breaking me off with a couple of dollars.

          (Shape of my Heart by “The Backstreet Boys” is playing)

  • Uncle Hugh, BP

    12 Point Buck pretty much summed up my thoughts. Although this was the first thing I thought about when reading this post:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weQKA5R-F6M

  • http://www.lifeisablast.org payne well

    Love it or Hate, women's rights and/or the feminist movement, changed the playing field for ladies. There was a period where we could only be of value if we had babies and where barefoot in the kitchen. Not against that role but it's not for everyone. Women need rights and just like blacks shouldn't be viewed as property, neither should women. Just like all causes you have people who go to far. For example, PETA. What some of them stand for is admirable, they want us to treat animals humanely. I have no problem with that, but others want all animals just to roam free everywhere. I have issues with that. People tend to harp on the negativity of a cause, versus the positivity it has brought. I'm proud of the rights I have as a woman, but that does not men, that I don't need a man.
    My recent post What is right to you, might be true

  • WIM

    I have a number of thoughts but I don't have time to share them all. Here's the best I can do for now…

    1) I wouldn't say I'm pro-feminist. But, I'm def not anti-woman. And I'm for damn sure not a misogynist. It's kind of a turn-off to be labeled a misogynist simply because I dont (think I) agree with all things feminist. Honestly, I don't know enough details about the movement or the goals to know how I feel. As an outside observer, I'd be lying if I didn't say most times I hear about feminism, it seems to be dogging men. That said, this would be like listening to the Tea Party and concluding all white people are bad simply because I hear from some in the minority who happen to resemble them. In conclusion, I don't participate in much feminism because I don't feel invited to the table. In fact, I feel excluded – not that I take this hard or particularly care one way or the other.

    2) As I said on Twitter, when it comes to "-ism" related discussions, it seems easier to place blame than seek common ground. I find it very hard to believe that feminist or men will ever see eye to eye if the two don't work together or invite the other party to eventually speak on both their faults and their desires to change or improve. This is the rough equivalent of expecting racism to end by gathering a room full of white people together to address racism. I do think it would be helpful to have a meaningful discussion between feminist and men, but it doesn't seem like either party is ready or willing to have that discussion in any type of forward-moving way.

    Like with most -isms, I think it's easier to overlook the progress we've made in face of the progress we have left to achieve. However, in my view, recognizing progress does not negate that work is still needed. Until I find people are openly willing to engage me in the topic without lumping me into a group of "them" because I happen to be a man, I'll chill. I'm pro equality, but I'm not sure I can honestly say I'm pro-feminist at this time. Nor am I positive feminist wont me, or men like me, directly involved with the movement. That has not been my impression anyway.

    • Paul B.

      Like with most -isms, I think it's easier to overlook the progress we've made in face of the progress we have left to achieve. However, in my view, recognizing progress does not negate that work is still needed. Until I find people are openly willing to engage me in the topic without lumping me into a group of "them" because I happen to be a man, I'll chill. I'm pro equality, but I'm not sure I can honestly say I'm pro-feminist at this time. Nor am I positive feminist wont me, or men like me, directly involved with the movement. That has not been my impression anyway.

      This pretty much sums it up for me. I'm pro-equality, pro-fairness, that's about it.

  • akireshenri

    Wow at black men actually typing that black women don't return the favor to black men. We march, die, cry, boycott and you can't even listen to the issues raised by black women looking to be seen as equals.

    • Adonis

      sit yo azz down.

      Black women are not loyal. Deal with it.

      • simplysope

        That is your rebuttal? That all black women, every single black woman is not loyal? What about your mother? Your sister? Your friends? And even in an alternate universe where this utterly incorrect statement was by some fluke correct, THAT would be the reason to say that black women don't deserve equality?

        So you are only interested in supporting black women if they do what exactly? What would black women need to do to make you happy? I mean clearly every one you've met has been trash (that is the only way I can explain all the very clear reacting and all the feelings), but there are plenty you're never met. So what would the rest of the black women on planet earth need to do to make you happy?

        Is it loyalty that makes you equal? Have white women been loyal to you? I mean when they hypersexualize you, use you to anger their racist parents, lie that you raped them, clutch their purses when you walk by, etc? Is that what makes them better than us?

        The fact that one of the commenters would fix his fingers to type that women don't actually deserve higher wages because they don't travel, work as hard, or whatever… Is the irony of this statement lost on you? Do you know what your white coworkers say the same thing about you when they are questioned as to why they make more money than you, even though you work twice as hard?

        Feminists (actual ones, not the ones who are feminists in name only) don't a hand out. They want to get what they deserve and to have men of color who should understand this struggle pulling us down?

        It is heartbreaking and infuriating.

        • Adonis

          @SimplySope

          my skinny chocolate stallion.

          As a side-note, if you would give me consent, I would beat the brakes off that p***y, if you would give the honor.

          But only on the condition that your box isn’t trash. So, I need two ex-male guys who can attest that your box is above average.

          I usually don’t like to give out free d*ck, but I can make an occasional exception for my chocolate sisters.

          MOTRenaissance@gmail dot com

          Now on to the rest of your post.

          ——————————–

          (Somebody Else (feat. Nicki Minaj) by Mario is playing)

          simplysope says:
          August 14, 2013 at 1:15 pm
          That is your rebuttal?

          Short & to the point. But I did write a manifesto up top.

          Can You Stand The Rain (Under The Lamppost/Quietstorm Mix)

          That all black women, every single black woman is not loyal?

          My definition of loyalty is different from you, Hugh, & FeministaJones’ definition of loyalty.

          I am talking about straight up altruism. I don’t see today’s black women down for black men like that.

          And frankly, if I was a black woman, I would not do anything for black men unless my core needs are being men by black men.

          What about your mother?

          My mom is from England. And she ain’t like none of you h*es.

          Your sister?

          My sisters are cool.

          Your friends?

          No problems

          And even in an alternate universe where this utterly incorrect statement was by some fluke correct, THAT would be the reason to say that black women don’t deserve equality?

          I said black women are not loyal. I did not say they “don’t deserve equality”. That is you projecting & not focusing on what I said, not what my mentality is.

          (“Too Little Too Late” by JoJo, very fitting)

          So you are only interested in supporting black women if they do what exactly? What would black women need to do to make you happy?

          Black women would make me happy by giving me cash. Lots of it

          And gargle these nuts, and swallow semen in between NBA 2K13 sessions.

          And clear & utter obedience like an Asian girl.

          I mean clearly every one you’ve met has been trash (that is the only way I can explain all the very clear reacting and all the feelings),

          ………..

          but there are plenty you’re never met.

          ………..

          So what would the rest of the black women on planet earth need to do to make you happy?

          See above.

          Is it loyalty that makes you equal?

          WTF were you trying to say.

          Have white women been loyal to you?

          I ain’t gon lie. I have fared better with white h*es, than you black h*es.

          I actually curved some of the white women I have dated & owe them apologies.

          I mean when they hypersexualize you, use you to anger their racist parents, lie that you raped them, clutch their purses when you walk by, etc? Is that what makes them better than us?

          This is not my legacy. White women have not gave me that work.

          Also. White women are not better, pound for pound than black women. I say, all things being equal. They are similar.

          Black women & white women are only different because of the men they are attached to.

          But black women have not done themselves any favors.

          The fact that one of the commenters would fix his fingers to type that women don’t actually deserve higher wages because they don’t travel, work as hard, or whatever… Is the irony of this statement lost on you? Do you know what your white coworkers say the same thing about you when they are questioned as to why they make more money than you, even though you work twice as hard?
          Feminists (actual ones, not the ones who are feminists in name only) don’t a hand out. They want to get what they deserve and to have men of color who should understand this struggle pulling us down?

          I meant to say, don’t work as long, but yup, women don’t put in the effort in working that men do.

          Doesn’t mean that there is discrimination. Just means that you have to update your argument.

          It is heartbreaking and infuriating.

          That is because you have not orgasmed in a while. It relaxes you like weed baby.

      • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

        If Black women aren't loyal, why do we bother to take our Black sons home from the hospital and raise them? Why do we have the LOWEST interracial marriage rate of ANY group of people? When it comes to marriage, there are 354,000 involving a Black man/White woman and 196,000 involving a Black woman/White man. Black women are disloyal, but we experience domestic violence (at the hands of Black male partners) at a rate that is 35% higher than White women. We're sooo disloyal, that we stay with Black men even though 40% of us have been sexually assaulted/coerced/raped by Black men (in the majority of cases) before we turn 18. We are SO disloyal to Black men, that when unemployment reaches rates of as high as 50% for certain factions of the Black male population, those men still have places to sleep, eat, bathe, and watch television…because our disloyal asses are not at all taking care of and supporting you through that struggle.

        Yeah, we're the most disloyal people on the planet.

        • Adonis

          If Black women aren’t loyal, why do we bother to take our Black sons home from the hospital and raise them?

          Maternal Instinct. Black women ain’t even savvy enough to meet black sons at their needs by giving them decent fathers of any race.

          So, I rather be raised by a white mother and roll the dice there.

          Why do we have the LOWEST interracial marriage rate of ANY group of people?

          Because you are obviously believe that black men are the most attractive or black men are the only group of men that will put up with your BS.

          But it ain’t because you ain’t doing us any favors.

          And you are also the least likely to marry out of all groups. But conversation for another day.

          When it comes to marriage, there are 354,000 involving a Black man/White woman and 196,000 involving a Black woman/White man.

          You are talking to the wrong negro. I am a resident Scandal fan & a HUGE proponent of American black women dating out.

          I might be a consultant & a ordained minister of IR BW/Non-BM marriages. Watch.

          Black women are disloyal, but we experience domestic violence (at the hands of Black male partners) at a rate that is 35% higher than White women.

          Some black women have a masochistic streak. See Tina Turner. You know that more than anybody since you are a resident BDSM expert. That is foreplay for alot of black women.

          Choices remember. If black women wanted to be with men who never hit them. They would get with weak men.

          We’re sooo disloyal, that we stay with Black men even though 40% of us have been sexually assaulted/coerced/raped by Black men (in the majority of cases) before we turn 18.

          Sh*t happens to us as children. I can attest to that.

          But, black women are not dating black men because they are doing black men a favor.

          But if you are, you need to take your azz to the men you truly admire.

          We are SO disloyal to Black men, that when unemployment reaches rates of as high as 50% for certain factions of the Black male population, those men still have places to sleep, eat, bathe, and watch television…because our disloyal asses are not at all taking care of and supporting you through that struggle.

          Black mothers are not truly meeting black sons at their core masculine needs.

          But alot of times, black women go out of their way (or lack the options) to support our more attractive, but financially unsound brothers.

          Sometimes, he has great D, & good game.

          Other times, women tolerate these men, because it gives them am illusion of control.

          These women are petrified of dating a black man with his sh*t together.

          Try again.

          Feminista. I am shocked you came up with old school BW arguments.

          I am also shocked that you are shocked that we have a segment of black men whthink black women aren’t all that great, and need to be dragged.

          Yeah, we’re the most disloyal people on the planet.

          I would not call y’all disloyal. But the idea that black women are getting with black men out of an altruistic sense or because black women are sooooo loyal, or doing black men a solid.

          Y’all need. To GTF. All the way. Out of the paint. With that BS.

        • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

          "Black women ain't even savvy enough to meet black sons at their needs by giving them decent fathers of any race.

          So, I rather be raised by a white mother and roll the dice there."

          There is nothing left to say to you at all.

          Enjoy your day.

        • Amicus

          Yea, that was hurtful. Most of the time I'm laughing or agreeing with about 80% of what he says. Then I read something like that and I'm like—–>horrified.
          My recent post Proverbs 31: A Life Worth Living?

        • Amicus

          I don't really understand your pro stance on hitting, beating & most recently dragging women. BUT I agree with most everything else you said. I'd like you to explain this:

          "Black mothers are not truly meeting black sons at their core masculine needs."

          What are those needs? How are they not being met? Also, you keep saying sex discrimination exists & that people just aren't making the right arguments. What are the right arguments?

          Last, are you really in favor of BW dating outside of our race? Sometimes I think you're being sarcastic, or just advocating that to prove a point. Other times I'm not so sure. I know the world isn't ideal, but in an ideal world wouldn't you want our race to persist?
          My recent post Proverbs 31: A Life Worth Living?

  • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

    I think the biggest issue in discussions of feminism are that the hyperbolic stereotypes of the White, wealthy, liberal female activists of the 1970s are applied to sistas who have also been rejected and pushed aside by those women. I think if we can move away from painting Black feminist women as new wave "bra burners" (bras were never burned, btw) who seek to destroy the "Black Man", we might be able to have a more productive conversation. I also think we should contextualize the practical applications of feminism and how these applications have not only helped Black women, but also Black men.

    My first exposure to feminism was via Salt-N-Pepa. I like that the author referenced Joan Morgan's book on "hip hop feminism", though I find her a bit campy and anecdotal lol. I appreciate her at least bringing the idea forward. I find bell hooks to be similarly anecdotal, but again, she has a very good way of capturing the love the Black women have for men coupled our desires to be respected and treated fairly within our homes and communities. I think, sometimes, taking the more anecdotal approach rather than a theoretical one can help with understanding.

    Practical applications of feminism:

    Voting- Women are now allowed to vote in elections and were KEY in President Obama's election and re-election. Without feminism, women would not be able to cast their votes and he might not have won his post. In local elections, women turn out in support of local candidates who seem to care more about issues specific to their smaller communities. Candidates need those votes.

    Contracts- As late as the late 1970s, women weren't universally allowed to sign their own contracts (credit card agreements, loans, mortgages, utility bills, etc). Surely you can understand why a woman being able to have her own cell phone contract or internet bill is important? Why it is important for a woman to be able to sign her own lease for an apartment or apply for a car loan on her own? Or…cosign for yours if you're in need of that help?

    Healthcare– For men who have children with women to whom they are not married, it is important for women to have access to their own health coverage that can also cover their children. I read a report that most children born out of wedlock who have health insurance get it through their mothers. Without feminism, women wouldn't be able to obtain the kind of work that provides that coverage, they wouldn't be able to enter into the agreements without male cosignature, and your children might not have solid health insurance. Also, they need the coverage for the costs of birthing these children.

    Economic– feminism helped women be able to open businesses and become active contributors to the economy. Women business owners provide great services that sometimes men overlook as being valuable: dining, aesthetic care, accounting, child care, event planning, retail, etc. Without feminism, women would be unable to get small business loans to open their businesses, they would not be able to provide these services that we all rely upon.

    Banking– women were not allowed to have their own bank accounts and credit cards. How are we supposed to pay for the dates that we're told we need to go dutch on or cover if we invite men? How are we to pay for gifts that make you smile? How can we order your favorite NFL season passes online or get season tickets for your favorite basketball games without having access to our own bank accounts/debit and credit cards?

    Violence Protection– Brothers, you have mothers, sisters, aunts, and daughters who are susceptible to violence at any time. Feminism has fought for laws that protect women from violence, harassment, rape, etc. If you're pro-woman, you would support legislation that keeps us safe when we walk down the streets so that we can come back home to you safely. How would you feel if your daughter's husband slapped her and she cried to you? Well not even 30 years ago, he could do that and it would be acceptable as long as he didn't punch her. And now? It's still hard as hell to get support for that. I suppose you could take it into your own hands, but wouldn't you feel better knowing there are laws that can punish such a man for hurting the women you love?

    All of these, and MANY more progressive acts that benefit all of us, were made possible by the feminism movement and the efforts of women of all races. Black women have our own narrative and we face struggle being Black and being women. It's been difficult to watch some brothers advocate for fair treatment of Black people but then mistreat the women in their lives. If you feel feminism is a threat to your manhood or standing as a man, I hate to tell you but…you're incorrect.

    • Animate

      Yes! All of this and more!
      My recent post The most powerful scene I've ever seen in a video game

    • WIM

      Thank you for this comment. It provides much needed context (for me, and I'm sure others).

    • jdoubleu

      I believe the proper closing to this is #factsonly

      I usually sit the feminism arguments out. But the extensive background context you gave is clear evidence that people see things the way they want to see them as to validate their own opinion/agenda. Black women are the most loyal yet don't always see the fruits of their labor or returns on their investments in US as a community.
      My recent post When Domestic Violence Becomes Personal

    • payne well

      omg! I might be gay. You sent chills through me!
      My recent post What is right to you, might be true

      • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

        I get that a lot ;)

    • Streetz

      Thank you for this

    • Adonis

      Great post.

      • Adonis

        @FeministaJones

        Great post

    • http://www.OpinionatedMale.com Mr SoBo

      @FeministaJones

      A nice and very well written list, but also not a very honest one. Rather disingenuous considering the list conveniently leaves out the inconvenient truths about 'feminism' and the benefits it affords women at the expense of the disenfranchised male.

      Men are not opposed to equality among the sexes. Men are not opposed to qualified experienced women making the same dollar for dollar as their male counterparts boasting similar qualifications and experience. Men are not opposed to women being given economic freedoms, healthcare benefits, et al. Yet such items are continually thrust into conversations about feminism as if today's man is in strong opposition to women having basic civil and human rights. Nonsense. Mentions of such things is merely done to convolute the discussion and appear to be more about misdirection. The milestones of yesteryear feminism was a nice distraction for this thread, but lets get to the heart of the matter.

      Lets talk about what is actually present in these times. Lets discuss the brazen unfairness present in today's society that heavily favors women in the name of 'equality', primarily within affairs surrounding family. Family is the backbone of any society and the health of any nation is defined by the health of its family structures within. Needless to say, today's modern 'family' is laughable at best and deserves a conversation of its own.

      When an HONEST conversation is ready to be had about Roe vs Wade, Divorce, Child Support/Custody laws, then we will be ready to truly discuss equality between the sexes and see EXACTLY what feminism is all about. Lets discuss how progressive these items are and have been in the name of this great equalizer we call feminism.

      Mr. SoBo
      SmartMenRock.com

      My recent post Saving Black Love: 8 Ways To A Better Us…Not You…US!

    • http://www.OpinionatedMale.com Mr SoBo

      @FeministaJones

      A nice and very well written list, but also not a very honest one. Rather disingenuous considering the list conveniently leaves out the inconvenient truths about 'feminism' and the benefits it affords women at the expense of the disenfranchised male.

      Men are not opposed to equality among the sexes. Men are not opposed to qualified experienced women making the same dollar for dollar as their male counterparts boasting similar qualifications and experience. Men are not opposed to women being given economic freedoms, healthcare benefits, et al. Yet such items are continually thrust into conversations about feminism as if today's man is in strong opposition to women having basic civil and human rights. Nonsense. Mentions of such things is merely done to convolute the discussion and appear to be more about misdirection. The milestones of yesteryear feminism was a nice distraction for this thread, but lets get to the heart of the matter.

      Lets talk about what is actually present in these times. Lets discuss the brazen unfairness present in today's society that heavily favors women in the name of 'equality', primarily within affairs surrounding family. Family is the backbone of any society and the health of any nation is defined by the health of its family structures within. Needless to say, today's modern 'family' is laughable at best and deserves a conversation of its own.

      When an HONEST conversation is ready to be had about Roe vs Wade, Divorce, Child Support/Custody laws, then we will be ready to truly discuss equality between the sexes and see EXACTLY what feminism is all about. Lets discuss how progressive these items are and have been in the name of this great equalizer we call feminism.

      Mr. SoBo
      SmartMenRock.com

      My recent post Saving Black Love: 8 Ways To A Better Us…Not You…US!

      • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

        "Men are not opposed to equality among the sexes. Men are not opposed to qualified experienced women making the same dollar for dollar as their male counterparts boasting similar qualifications and experience. Men are not opposed to women being given economic freedoms, healthcare benefits, et al."

        Surely you're not speaking for all men, because there are, in fact, MANY men who are opposed to everything you just listed.

        I think speaking for yourself will strengthen your argument, here.

        "Lets discuss the brazen unfairness present in today's society that heavily favors women in the name of 'equality', primarily within affairs surrounding family."

        You sure about that? In the vast majority of states, at least as seen in divorce proceedings (which I could argue is an issue among Back folks who have the lowest marriage rates), men are given the same opportunities as women to apply for custody and judges are focused on the best interest of the child and providing equal access to both parents. THAT is the law. There are no laws that I know of granting women automatic preference in divorce-related custody hearings. If you can show me some, I'll learn something new. The issue that usually comes up is that the men make assumptions about the outcomes and don't push for their rights, for which I'm a huge advocate. In cases where there is no marriage, if preference is shown towards mothers, it is likely because the mother has been the primary caregiver from birth (statistically) and judges don't wish to disrupt that. HOWEVER, men are still allowed to push for equal visitation and I have colleagues who work at this every day (I'm a social worker).

        Roe v Wade was about protecting the right to privacy for women and men when it comes to making reproductive choices. I don't get why you bring that up.

        Show me some divorce custody LAWS supporting your argument and we can go from there.

        The problem is that patriarchy relegated men to secondary parenting status by demanding they be the financial providers and spend most of the time outside of the home working and generating income to support a family. Women were locked into the homes caring for the children. THAT is what established the "bond" that many judges have tried to preserve over the years and that is why it favored women. Patriarchy did that, not feminism. As the tide is changing and more women are working outside of the home and even earning more money than their male partners, and as more men are staying home with children, we're seeing shifts in that paradigm and judges are way more likely to favor even splits and avoid battles.

        Show me the laws specifically favoring women and we'll discuss them.

        • http://www.OpinionatedMale.com Mr SoBo

          I cannot account for every single individual man anymore than you can speak for every feminist or woman for that matter. Generalities are a given in discussions such as these. Lets not bog down the conversation with what should be a basic understanding of this engagement. Besides, take a moment to read the comments from the male commenters here, you will see there are others who echo my sentiments on this matter. Clearly, I'm not alone.

          "…men are given the same opportunities as women to apply for custody andjudges are focused on the best interest of the child and providing equal access to both parents. THAT is the law. There are no laws that I know of granting women automatic preference in divorce-related custody hearings….men are still allowed to push for equal visitation…"

          If things were indeed equal Ms. FeministaJones, why on earth would there even be a need for a man to ever "push for equal visitation" of his own children? I would imagine since the courts are fair and justice is indeed blind as you suggest, there wouldn't be a need for such an effort. Which begs the question, where are the children that these men have to "push to visit"? Hmmnn..living with their mother.

          So you're a social worker? Excellent. Some questions for you.
          Has there ever been a case where a man has to "push to pay more money in child support"? I'm very curious. If I were to guess, I would guess No. The law seems to have that pretty covered, enforced and even punishable by jail time. Rather interesting that Men have an automatic right to pay for children, but when it comes to actually being an active part of their children's lives, they have to fight for it. But alas, perhaps I'm failing to look at the brighter side of things. After all, men should just be grateful that we are "still given opportunities to APPLY for [shared] custody" of our own children.

          I have the right to apply to be a father, but not the right to be a father. Wow.

          You have indeed changed my perspective on life Ms. FeministaJones. I have the right to apply for a job opportunity. Thank the laws of the land, I am also allowed the opportunity to go on a job interview. But unfortunately, having the right and the opportunity doesn't guarantee me a thing; especially when my fate is decided by those who claim to have the company's best interest in mind. Never should I mind the many other qualified Black applicants that were also systematically refused the position. The major takeaway is that I should feel honored and grateful having had the opportunity to apply for the role in this great and fair colorblind system of ours.
          cont…..
          My recent post Saving Black Love: 8 Ways To A Better Us…Not You…US!

        • http://www.OpinionatedMale.com Mr SoBo

          cont…

          More Social Services questions, as I am relying heavily on your expertise in the field since you have a front row seat and the cases to prove it. I know you are going to say these are all balanced, but I would like to humor myself.

          1) Out of all the cases of PEOPLE "pushing for equal visitation", how many of those are fathers, and how many are the mothers?
          2) Out of all the child support cases, how many of the court JUDGMENTS ordering payments were against fathers, and how many are against mothers?
          3) Of all the child custody hearings, how many of those court JUDGMENTS awarded the fathers custodial parentage and how many the mothers?
          4) Of all the shared parenting arrangements ORDERED BY THE COURTS, how many of them were equally split in time spent with the children between the mothers and the fathers; and how many were arranged where one parent is subjected to being the weekend parent?

          In cases of unwed parents, the system as you rightfully stated is reluctant to separate children from their mothers who have been the primary caregivers from birth, because mothers are automatically and LEGALLY assigned as the primary custodial parent of that child the moment he/she is conceived and eventually birthed. There is no "if" about preference, the preference is clearly outlined in the LAW. Which brings us to Roe vs Wade and the protection of privacy.

          You say, "Roe v Wade was about protecting the right to privacy for women and men when it comes to making reproductive choices. I don't get why you bring that up."

          Simple. What reproductive choices do men have exactly? Should a woman become pregnant, she has 100% authority to dictate the fate of the pregnancy. A man whether he wants to be a father or not, has no choice in the matter. Where are the protective and privacy rights for the men who don't want children, but are forced to be parents and bear the financial responsibility for a child he didn't want but the mother chose to bring into the world? When his face is plastered on "Dead Beat" posters, where is his privacy?

          If women are able to resign from their financial/parental obligations of raising a child by simply visiting a clinic, then why are men not afforded such luxuries of being able to terminate their parental and financial obligations at will by simply, walking away? Instead, a man is LEGALLY financially responsible should the mother choose to carry the pregnancy to term and pursue him for financial support. Fair? Oh thats right, it doesn't matter, the courts are looking out for the best interest of the child.

          As far as patriarchy goes, i find it difficult to comprehend how a system accused of being designed for male dominance and female subjugation is somehow also systematically giving men the raw end of the deal and punishing them in these situations while women are benefitting and advancing financially and socially from them. Patriarchy would rather have a man become homeless from paying thousands per month in child support?? Such outcomes don't align with what patriarchy is purported to be, which raises the question about the very existence of patriarchy in these times. I'm starting to believe patriarchy has long left the building given the way things are. This is something else that we are all unfamiliar with, but the anti-male agenda needs labels and a male effigy(patriarchy & masculinity) to beat blame and burn to garner support for their movement. So men, if you ever want to have fair and equal access to your children again, you must reject patriarchy and become a feminist. :-/

          My recent post Saving Black Love: 8 Ways To A Better Us…Not You…US!

  • emmanism

    I'm happy you posted this on your blog. I forget sometimes, after following so many pro-feminist men and women the prevalence of anti-feminists, evident in the comments. I wonder where this thinking comes from, that Black women don't support black men, when black women marched right next to black men in the civil rights movement, provided income for our families, all the while fulfilling traditional gender roles of maintaining a household. How is that not supporting black men? Black women simply want equality: equal pay, equal access to the fullness of the law, and the ability to move in public spaces without being criticized, stereotyped, or attacked. If we remember, the Civil Rights movements wanted the same thing for all Black women, so why are we excluded now?

  • WIM

    Tunde, not to call you out, but I'd also be interested to hear your (or others) thoughts on this Twitter hashtag: https://twitter.com/search?q=%23BlackPowerIsForBl

    Might warrant a follow-up post.

    May God be with you.

  • Uncle Hugh, BP

    First off, you ladies know we love y'all. Let's get that out of the way. Black women have been extremely loyal to black men, and that's not even a matter of discussion. So with that out the way…

    Tunde mentioned being a feminist, so are we talking about feminism proper? Because a lot of comments are distinguishing black feminism from feminism's historical roots (which historically only cared about middle-aged white women).

    Most men believe in equality. I don't know too many guys that think women should get paid less, or shouldn't vote or anything like that. If we believe in equality for everyone, do we have to distinguish ourselves by calling ourselves feminists? At what point are you a feminist? If you believe in equal pay for equal work, but you are against something like abortion or the strong female tilt in the judicial system, does that make you anti-feminist?

    • Shamira

      What in the world is feminism proper? I'm seriously asking. Y'all are assigning definitions that don't exist.

      • Uncle Hugh, BP

        I'm no expert on feminism, so feel free to correct me on these issues (although I'm sure you would have without my invitation). I used the term "proper" as a descriptive term to describe issues and theories many feminists believe in.

        People claim feminism is about equality: in other words, equilibrium, balance. Most men would agree with that if that was definitively what feminism is about. But some things that some feminists believe in doesn't bring balance, but swings the pendulum in the opposite direction. Any man that has been through a divorce or in child custody courts can tell you that the pendulum has swung way too far in favor of women. Some things are harmful to others (abortion). Some feminists would even go as far as to considered strippers or pronography to be anti-feminist because it supposedly objectifies women.

        Those are just a few examples (I'm assuming you're not asking for an exhaustive list). Perhaps you can briefly describe what "feminism proper" would be to you, because feminism appears to mean different things to different people. Which is why I asked the question in the first place.

        • Shamira

          As a non parent, I can not speak on custody. But just for the record, being anti-abortion isnt anti-feminist. Nor is stripping, being a stay at home wife, etc.

          With equality comes agency. Freedom of choice. That's all it comes down to, to me. I'm not trying to dictate anyone's existence. People keep tacking on discussion that don't apply.

        • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

          "I'm no expert on feminism, so feel free to correct me on these issues"

          "But some things that some feminists believe in doesn't bring balance, but swings the pendulum in the opposite direction."

          I think you've made the perfect case for maybe why it is best to listen to the truths spoken by 1. experts on feminism and 2. the SOME of us who not the SOME you referenced.

          Can we agree to that?

          Can we agree to not judge all feminists by the behaviors of some? To be open to other notions of feminism that exist outside of the stereotypes of SOME women?

          Because if we were to judge all Black men by the behavior of some………………………..

          O_O

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          "I think you've made the perfect case for maybe why it is best to listen to the truths spoken by 1. experts on feminism…Can we agree to that?"

          No, because their "truths" aren't truth. Just because they formalized their opinion, it doesn't make it truth. Now if you want to say feminism is "the SOME of us who not the SOME you referenced", that's fine. By the way, I agree with most of your original comment under the practical applications of feminism, if that is your official definition.

          "Because if we were to judge all Black men by the behavior of some…"

          Exactly my point. Now when we start talking about certain types of black men that believe and do certain things, we can have a meaningful discussion.

        • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

          "No, because their "truths" aren't truth. Just because they formalized their opinion, it doesn't make it truth"

          So you're telling me that my truths (and by truths I meant my life experiences with sexism and racism) are not real? They're just opinions I made up?

          Errr…ok.

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          This is why I said we need to define feminism. You're shifting from "their" truths to "your" truths. And by truths, I mean what feminism is in someone's opinion, not their life experiences.

          Suffice it to say I'm about equality. Equal pay and equal rights. That's all I have to say on the subject.

        • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

          My ex-husband and I divorced and have joint custody.
          Your experience is your experience, not necessarily the rule. We had no problem working out a joint custody arrangement that the courts accepted.
          You have 1 experience. I have 1 experience. We've zeroed out that discussion :)

          I'm a feminist who supports strippers and their rights and I know many like me. So, here we are equalizing the "some" you referred who are against strippers.

          What else you got? :)

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          How did you zero out the discussion when it is clearly a documented problem? That dismissiveness exactly why some men completely tune feminists out.

          You're really just showing why I asked the question what feminism is. "Equalizing" doesn't mean anything when we are asking for definitions.

        • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

          My point, which you missed, is just as you can provide your example of an experience, I can provide my example of an experience. Our experiences cancel the other's out so we are back to square one.

          Just as you say its documented that women are more favored, I could show you statistics that show things are actually more center and shared now, when it comes to custody…that is, if you're interested in learning more about how the family courts have shifted in recent years.

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          No, your point wasn't that deep, I didn't miss anything.

          Two subjective opinions don't mean much. Just as you can show statistics that show some things are more centered, there are stats that show they are more imbalanced.

          PS: Who said I'm talking about my experience?

    • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

      You're suggesting that "feminism" is inherently White and we are arguing that it is not. It is because of this assumption and misappropriation, that Black women often feel the need to pipe up as "Black Feminists" because without that label change, many of you are not at all interested in hearing anything we have to say.

      You don't have to call yourself a feminist. Many women who support and benefit from feminism don't call themselves feminists either. Feminism is the only word we have to think about this concept of equality between the sexes/genders and I advocate for a more humanist POV.

      However, we work with what we have, for now, because the conversations are already happening and we need to speak the same language.

      I find that men have trouble with the word having "fem" in it because it makes them feel less "manly", or whatever they believe masculinity to be. I also know that if it had another name, more brothers would champion it.

      Sidebar: GNC repackaged their lean shake from this http://mileswithstyle.files.wordpress.com/2012/01… to this http://gnc.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pGN
      because men in focus groups said they wouldnt buy the original one.
      Same exact shake, same ingredients, same nutrients, same flavors.
      Men preferred the darker, more "manly" packaging

      So, yeah.

      • Uncle Hugh, BP

        @FeministaJones: "You're suggesting that "feminism" is inherently White and we are arguing that it is not."

        I am asking what is "feminism proper". We need to agree on what feminism is before we can start asking if one is a feminist or not.

        If you feel the definition morphed to not focus on middle-class white women (which is not an "assumption and misappropriation", that is a fact), then fine. Feel free to define it for the sake of discussion so everyone is talking about the same thing.

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          HTML fail.

        • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

          Why are you asking what it is when you introduced the phrase?

        • Uncle Hugh, BP

          The phrase is descriptive. Feel free to provide the official jargon if you don't like the phrase "feminism proper". I am asking what feminism is. Based on your original comment, you view feminism differently than 12 Point Buck, and you both view feminism differently than Betty Friedan.

          For the sake of discussion, I'm asking what it is.

  • High_Five_Ghost

    I think that black women are possibly the most unappreciated Americans in America. However, Joan Morgan can keep that "call to arms" because I agree with my "comment idol, "Adonis" on this note.

    At my core, I'm all for the equality of opportunity.
    That's it!

    The rest of that ish can go by the wayside because when I call women on it, then suddenly, I'm supposed to be "the man", the patriarch or the guy that pumps your gas. These and other roles, I'm fine with, just STFU because you can't have it both ways.

  • Gem

    testing again…

  • AAA

    Feminists angrily and ignorantly protesting an MRA gathering at the University of Toronto. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80

    A woman whose found a big following on youtube for advocating of mens issues and regularly dismantles modern day feminism for all its hypocrisies http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDYAVROaIcs

    Video explaining a broad overview of general mens issues and how the feminist dominated media has reduced men to human doings, not human beings. How when a man does something wrong, hes directly referenced as a man, but when doing something brave, just, or righteous being given ambiguous job titles to describe them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAuqkqxk9A

    I believe early feminism wanted equal rights but in present day they've completely jumped out the window. Other posters have noted the undeniable bias against men & fathers in family & divorce court. Thats not to mention the sensationalizing of acts like rape and using it as a tool to smear men when only a small percentage of men commit rape, lies about domestic violence when unbiased studies have showed DV to be unilateral, lesser charges for the same crime for women etc.

    I would conclude that feminism does indeed have much to answer for.

  • AAA

    Take note of the first video especially, if any men acted in such a way towards a feminist group they would face severe repurcussion for it. Yet these woman pulled a fire alarm, denounced male suicide rates as nothing & cussed endlessly at a group who was simply minding their business and breaking no law whatsoever.

  • hhh

    cool post sir.

  • http://J.Crawford J.Crawford

    First Things First- If 12 Point Buck and Uncle Hugh are on Facebook, PLEASE send me a request because you two's comments are THE Way to get to the Core of Nuances of Any Topic/Discussion…

    Now, I am no Feminist but like many I am Not Anti-Woman. I have a Mother, Sister, Cousins, Aunts, etc like any other Man/Male; I also have a Daughter so that too plays a role. While I'm not Adonis or some other popular commenters in the Blogosphere World, they have good points (when focused) that I agree with. Truth is Feminism has Issues that need to be addressed, just like many movements and organizations have issues and need addressed (i.e. Black Community and the LBGTQ movement. NO, THIS NOT A DON LEMON rant nor Diss, btw).

    • http://J.Crawford J.Crawford

      (Cont.)
      Family Courts, Marriage-Divorce proceedings, Equal Pay, Domestic Violence, and so on HAVE had SOME Improvements, yet there is still some 1940/1950s mentality in these laws that still see Women as 2nd Class, Inferior and Incapable of Self-Sufficiency, DESPITE the outcries of "gender" Equality. It's as if Deadbeat Mothers are Unicorns or Leprechauns that hide Pots of Gold at the end of Rainbows, that Women actually are Just as Wrong for Hitting Men as Men are towards Women and Shouldn't be Getting Passes for it, and Much More.

    • J.Crawford

      (Cont.)
      FACT: Men and Women Aren't Equal, in the most Simple and Complex ways of Biology, SUBJECTIVE Philosophy of what One's Gender actually Means towards the Opposite Sex, Amongst their Own Gender and in the Way of Society. If folks like @FeministaJones, Demetria Lucas, CLUTCH/Madam Noire/Jezebel websites and Magazines can't even Admit THAT then there will Never, EVER be a Real Discussion and Understanding- the same way there can Never, EVER be a True "talk" about Race between just Blacks and Caucasians, let alone when you add Latinos/Hispanics and Asians, and the same way there can Never, EVER be a Real Peace between Religions (Islam, Judaism, Christianity), who have the EXACT SAME GOD that is Worshipped and Real Human Patriarch- Abraham…

      • http://twitter.com/FeministaJones @FeministaJones

        "If folks like @FeministaJones, Demetria Lucas, CLUTCH/Madam Noire/Jezebel "

        Don't lump me in with those people. Have you ever read my work? If not, it would behoove you to tread lightly on your accusations about my philosophies.

        Shorter FJ: You don't know me, fam. Watch ya mouth.

        • J.Crawford

          I actually have read your work, and you are Very Good, but PLEASE don't come on here as if you are the 2nd Coming to Holy Mary, the Mother of God. "Tread Lightly"? As if I'm afraid of you, Twitter, Black Twitter specifically and your "cult Followers"…… Miss, I'm not on Twitter; personally it's a Waste of Time and too many on there are Childish and that outweighs the Activist Progress that has come from it.

          I can say whatever I want, BTW. First Amendment and this being a Discussion and the Internet and whatnot gives me the Right, Privilege and Platform to do so; it also gives me the Same Right, Privilege and Platform to Respond to you as I am Currently……..

  • Southerngyrl_

    Ugh…Mad that I am even doing this. There is no one core definition of what makes a feminist. It is like someone identifying as liberal or conservative. There are pro-choice liberals and anti-choice liberals. Some conservatives are just fiscally conservative, others maybe socially conservative. There is no one size fits all. Equality is basically the underlying scope in all of feminism but don't try to find some one size fits all logic. It won't fit in that box. If you really want to know the deal, do some independent research on it and lay off of the assumptions.

  • http://cubicgarden.com/2013/07/09/my-crisis-masculinity-and-how-feminism-set-me-free/ ian forrester

    Been feeding through the comments and at the core, I'm in agreement. I was going to write about the same subject without all the politics but alas I already wrote about it already… http://cubicgarden.com/2013/07/09/my-crisis-mascu

    The important thing here is understanding outside of all the politics…
    My recent post Tipping, who gets it right?

  • Furious Styles

    What is it about this subject that makes people froth at the mouth? From looking at these comments, you would have thought that the fate of all humanity rests on being “right” about this.

  • Young Heaux

    A man who reads bell hooks…..<3333 you can definitely be a feminist and it sounds like you are.

    Don't have much more to say except that These comments are truly eye opening as to how bad the situation really is for women in this world and all the reactionary feelings against feminism.

  • http://www.greaterunderstanding.net Anthony Brian Logan

    feminists are lesbians.
    My recent post NEW SLAVES