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Whether it was by circumstance or by choice, we’ve always had independent women amongst us. Change is inevitable, and the role of the independent women has changed from single women raising kids on their own due to whatever circumstance to single women doing it on their own because they don’t want a man, don’t need a man. Or maybe I should say the cliche of the independent woman has changed. After all, I can’t claim to know the history of the independent women, not being a independent woman historian, nor father time. I’m sure there were some women back in the day that chopped their own wood, did their own hunting and clubbed dudes over the head and dragged them home. (Kinda like they do now.) And there are plenty of women presently raising their child or children on their own because the father has either passed away, been locked up or simply just doesn’t care. That being said, the question at hand is whether or not the present day Independent Woman intimidates men. Well….yes and no.
At work, the independent woman scares the sh*t out of men. Most men won’t admit it, but they do. Not so much because they make men shake in their boots, but because men don’t exactly know how to match the intensity of an assertive, independent woman. Ironically enough men find themselves in this situation because their egos tell them that if they match her intensity, she’ll run away sobbing uncontrollably. Which is usually not the case, but this is the information passed to our brains from our egos. Especially when dealing with a female boss men always have a hard time dealing with the fact that a woman is in charge or holds some weight. Can’t really explain it, it’s a guy thing. They probably won’t admit if you ask them so don’t bother asking your close guy friend if this is true, ’cause he’ll probably BS you. But it’s usually difficult staying focused at work while trying to keep your ego in check, especially when the person checking your ego smells like jasmine vanilla body wash.
On the dating scene however, independent woman are not so intimidating, for the simple fact that unlike the work scene, we can avoid independent women altogether. Of course, there are men out there that are attracted to independent women, but for the ones that aren’t, they can simply choose to ignore them. They are practically invisible. It’s not like men aren’t attracted to successful women who have their own this, that and other, but when you add the “better off on my own” attitude to the mix, it’s just easier not to deal with the drama. If you’re so much better off on your own, then go ahead, knock yourself out. Half the time, these women are feeding into the idea of being independent but still dabble back and forth between feeling they need a man, then deciding they don’t. You know what “they” say, women don’t know what they want. (The “they” usually being men.) The one thing that hasn’t changed is that it’s still a man’s world. And whether women like it or not, men have the option of totally avoiding independent women altogether and finding someone more suited to their taste. So while avoidance is not exactly dealing with issue of the intimidation that exists, it works because we can do it. Most people avoid things that aren’t pleasant. And sometimes, dating an “independent woman” is not pleasant, so we avoid it. Simple. And men have to be some of God’s simplest creatures.
Just being single doesn’t qualify you to be an independent woman. Cuz let’s face it, some women still rely on their family to help them out. And that’s what family is for. But aside from answering the question of whether or not independent women are intimidating to men, I want to know how you define an independent woman. After all, they all aren’t Beyonce….
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Ha! We're thinking about the same things today. My blog today is actually about why women SHOULD date a man that makes more money than they do.
As far as the independent woman thing, a lot of times that's just armor for women who feel that their accomplishments aren't taken seriously or that they're not going to find a man. Which ironically makes it even harder. A lot of women I think have just looked at the stats and given up. So they can feel better about themselves by calling themselves independent and not feel hopeless and needy. It's kinda hard to blame them given some of their chances.
Scuse the shameless self promotion
An independent woman is a woman who doesn't rely on her man to fix her problems. She figures it out on her own, whether she gets help from friends,family, or the bank. She doesn't need a man to survive. It doesn't mean she doesn't want a man or won't value a man who is willing to be of assistance, but if "he" never shows up, she'll be just fine.
An independent woman is not going to go without just b/c she doesn't have a man, but is more than willing to fall back and chill if a good man who wants to provide comes along. On the other hand if said man starts thinking that she can't make it on her own and starts tripping b/c he thinks she is dependent on him and abusing the power she had given him, he will soon find himself alone b/c a real Diva can always rev up her game and handle hers if need be.
So if the thought that your woman can always roll out if you starting acting a nut is intimidating or unpleasant so be it, but I for one don't plan on ever being with someone because if I leave I'll be destitute. My mother raised me to always have a plan be and be ready to implement it. Independence is a state of mind!
you "independent" people are the stupidest i've ever seen. Be you religous or not the fact that there are two different kinds (male-Female) would be a pretty good indicator that one needs the other and vice versa. this goes for men and women. Even though there ARE more independent woman than men. Woman say men have big egos and are "scared" of independence…no we aren't we are irritated by it. And if your independent you for whatever reason need to broadcast it as much as possible…your independent..congrads. it takes more time,effort, and intelligence to allow someone to be a part of your life. Its easy to say you don't need a man. I take it as a type of power trip. you've got a good job, money, a home of your own perhaps. and it goes to your head. You dont NEED anyone…yes you do and so do i and every other man and woman. bc if we werent suppose to need each other thn there wouldnt be men and woman thr would just be wenman. so pull your independent head out of your independent Ass and accept that just because you don't technically NEED a man. We are here to offer things. neccesary or not. But what do I know i'm just a man who can't accept change right? pull that independence stick out of your ass unless you don't mind dying alone.
Am with Afro Diva on this…couldn't have said it better. I think men have a problem dealing with the fact that a soft bod and gentle voice can have brass just as them. You said men are simple…simple minded more like not wanting to accept change. An independent woman is a woman all the same. She still needs to be held and loved, she just doesn't sit around feeling sorry for herself when she doesn't get it. I encourage all women to be independent. It is not rivalry to manhood, it's just better in a world where everyone seem to be more interested in looking after their own interests.
I hate the whole independent woman bullsh!t. I personally feel that men and women should both be codependent, because we each bring different aspects to one another's lives. It's all about balance.
I feel like "independent women" have messed it up for a lot of other women. A lot of men look at me like I'm crazy as hell for expecting them to bring more to the table than a hard d***. I would never walk around talking about "I can pay all my own bills, I don't need a man for that", "I can buy my own jewelry and gifts, I don't need a man for that", "I can go on a trip to Cozumel on my own or with my girls, I don't need a man for that", "I can open the door to this building, I don't need a man for that", "I can mow the lawn, rake the leaves, shovel the snow, cut down this oak tree with a chainsaw, I don't need a man for that". Sure, I am capable of doing all these things all by myself, but why would I want to when there are men that are able to? Men are (supposed to be) inherently wired to want to provide (for women and children). As far as manual labor and opening doors, that should be a no brainer. Trips and gifts, we as women (in general) have foolishly bought these things for men, why shouldn't we want and expect them, we are the ones that are supposed to be courted.
You better believe I stand next to doors and wait. When a guy comes over I always "need" him to do something like take out the trash, hang a picture, open a jar, and I had one unclog the drain for me yesterday. When they come to the house, I have them stop by the store and pick up ground beef, or blank cds, or toilet paper or whatever.
And please believe that when I need extra money to help pay a bill, or I see a dress or shoes that I want, I have no problem asking for it. The guys I have dated are NOT hurting for money, and I feel like, if they have it, I'm going to ask, all he can do is tell me no (which doesn't happen often). Men have NO problem asking for/hinting about sex, therefore it would be silly of me to be shy about asking for what I want.
But that's just me. Sorry so long.
I agree with Afro Diva and Fancy-Free. If the thought that I can do things on my own scares you, then so be it. No one woman should be dependent on a man for anything. Personally, I think it’s foolish. I saw my mother do it for years and it backfired terribly. She finally got it together and started to do things on her own, but I would be a fool not to learn from her mistakes.
This doesn’t mean that it’s not nice to have a man around, but no one should feel as if they “need” another human being to survive b/c human beings can always let you down. You have to be able to obtain what you need and want for yourself, especially as a woman b/c there are a lot of men out there who are waiting for you to be dependent on them just so they can rub it in your face, have a chance to treat you like ish, or use that power as a means to control you. I’m all set with that, so I will always pass on needing a man and any many who feels that I should “need” him in order to be with him.
If I ask a man to help with something and he acts all funky about it, I will still get it done with or without him, and I don’t want a man who has a problem with that. But I also will let a man to know that I greatly appreciate it if he does help me b/c he may have made things easier on me, even if I could have gotten things done without him.
I really can't speak to this because I'm not an independent woman. But I can speak on my observation that what makes women successful at work doesn't make them successful in relationships.
I think we need to separate the "independant" woman from the "pretentious" woman, because its the pretentious ones that are giving independant women a bad name. For a man to avoid a woman that can provide for herself just seems a little ridiculous; what, am I just supposed to throw away my degree and quit my job, hoping that some dude is gonna swoop in and save the day?? However, I completely understand if it is the pretentious women that men are shying away from (ie, eye rolling, finger snapping "n*gga I dont need you, I can buy my own gucci bags, I got my own bmw!!"). Because then you're just dealing with an a**hole. lol
I was raised in a two parent home and was taught to be independent. This teaching was not to hinder me, but to help me. If a man is around than he can change a tire, hang a painting, move a sofa. But if one isn't around then I am well capable of doing all these things and more on my own.
I was once told that I was "too independent". WTH does that mean? If me not waiting around for you to do something I need to be done, and me choosing to do it myself makes me "too independent" then too bad.
Women do want men to take charge and be a provider. But if all else fails, we as women know how to keep pushing in order to survive.
I'm with Fly… "Sure, I am capable of doing all these things all by myself, but why would I want to when there are men that are able to? " Men need to feel needed, women need to feel taken care of, so it's a win-win situation.
I don't think men are intimidated by independent women per se, just those that have bad attitudes and rub it in their face. You can be educated and making money, and still be able to play your position as a lady.
Ashley said it about as well as could be said. There are a lot of women who mistake their assholery for independence. And a real independent woman doesn't have to run off at the mouth all the time about how independent she is, she just does the shit she needs to do.
This independence movement is destroying potential families and is the main reason women are getting married later in life, or not getting married at all. If you act like a man, you are not as attractive to men. You tell men you don’t need them, they won’t come around. This has nothing to do with women making their own money or doing things on their own. It’s the attitude that men aren’t needed and should feel lucky to even be in a woman’s independent presence.
Where IWs get it twisted is they think a lot of the things men do is difficult. You can pay your own mortgage? You can change a tire? Make a Powerpoint presentation? Put together a entertainment center? In the immortal words of Derrick Coleman, “whoopdie damn doo!” Anyone can get a job, learn basic computer software or follow instructions. “Independent” is a euphemism for being a grown-up. You don’t get extra credit because you can take care of yourself like any other adult who isn’t mentally retarded.
In this day and age, a man can always get laid. But when it comes time to actually settling down and wanting a family, most men prefer to be with a woman who would like to make that happen, not someone saying, “I don’t need you to be happy.”
Hostess: ”I really can’t speak to this because I’m not an independent woman. But I can speak on my observation that what makes women successful at work doesn’t make them successful in relationships.”
Amen. In fact, what makes women successful at work is usually what makes them unsuccessful in relationships.
Brownbelle: ”I don’t think men are intimidated by independent women per se, just those that have bad attitudes and rub it in their face.”
Had to come back to add something. I do 'woman shyt' well. I expect my man to do 'man shyt' well. This requires that we both know our roles. Because so many of our generation was raised by single moms, a lot of folks don't know roles very well. Women aren't supposed to do everything.
Women who are in constant competition with men are hardly ever in relationships. No man wants to be competing with him woman over who makes the most, who is the smartest, etc. These super women are messing it up for little old me. Men often don't know how to react to little old fashion me. They see the degrees and assume I'm one of those go-hard, corner office wanting women. Nerp. I'd much rather tend to home. I find great joy in that. Having said all that, lemme go in here and clean this bathroom properly.
There's a difference between 'need' and want'. I don't go popping off at the mouth about not needing a man to do blah blah blah…what for? Sure..I don't need a man to do anything for me that I'm not capable of doing myself BUT I sure do want him to…please if you're around me long enough you'd know that I can show you better than I can tell you. No I don't need you to take out the trash but I want you to. No I don't need you to fix anything in my house but I want you to. I don't need you to mow my grass, fix the car, pump the gas but I'm not going to tell you that because I want you to…just like you don't need me to cook, clean, sew, etc..but i bet you want me to though.
I am independent in that I don't need anyone to do the things I'm supposed to be doing for myself as a grown azz woman…feel me? But I'm not so arrogant to dismiss wanting those things to be done. Daddy always told me to 'hang my mouth where the soup is dripping, a closed mouth don't get fed, baby'. Once I was grown I got what he meant.
Being independent to me means taking care of what you have and nurturing what you want. You speak what you want into existence…you keep 'not needing' stuff and it won't need you either, lol.
Geez… such long responses too much to read on the Friday morning aftermath of last night headache.
I can't really describe an independent woman, but I know one when I see her. I think in our twenties most women are about as independent as most men. We all pay bills, we all got bills, we all occasionally call home to mom/dad and ask for money to pay for ish or to buy ish. What we have to watch out for is the leaches, the woman who have no intention on paying for squadoosh. They are a wolf in sheep's clothing, because they could also be independent women, they just getting over.
I'm feeling Ashley on this one – independant is NOT the same as pretentious a**hole. This may sound slightly crazy, but a woman CAN be the team captain at work and your team member at home. As much as I am an aggressive little mucky muck at my job I have no desire to "be the boss" of my man. Maybe head cheerleader, lol. But this depends on a certain amount of versatility that will come up in more than one area. The woman who can code switch can probably role switch as well. If she can be comfortable and fit in at your corporate function and at your cousin Pookie's bbq, she can be comfortable taking the lead and taking a back seat. Flexibility is a good thing in every way.
I agree with Anna N. It goes back to being 'universal'.
I also want to pose a question though to everyone. Is the Independent woman (independent as in 'head diva ball breaker in charge, lol) really independent or is she scared of not being able to control something?
"Women who are in constant competition with men are hardly ever in relationships. No man wants to be competing with him woman over who makes the most, who is the smartest, etc."
Ding Ding Ding!!!!
We don't want competition!!! I wish some of the SBIW that I encounter would just realize that. It's a big turn off if a woman is having small talk with you and has throw in the plug that she has an Acura. It's a turn off we tell you a little about ourselves and of course you have to one-up us.
Independent should be replaced by "inter-dependent", meaning that you have the potential to form a union with someone of like mine instead of creating an island for yourself and then integrating yourself into a relationship likened more to a power struggle. INTERDEPENDENT people! I'm looking for an Interdependent Lady!
Another thing. When will women get that just because they don't go around saying that they don't need men, it doesn't mean they aren't sending that message?? Behaviors speak louder than words.
"If you’re so much better off on your own, then go ahead, knock yourself out. "
I think men usually misinterpret the saying, "I can take care of myself" quote for the above. Just because a woman doesn't need a man to take care of her doesn't mean she isn't open to love. Taking care of someone (financially) is different than love. I mean, you can love yourself, but it's not as stimulating as having a parter who loves you.
And Co-signing Smiley Face in terms of there being a difference between "need" and "want". I think men continuously confuse the two when dealing with independent chicks. I mean, think of it this way. You may not NEED a women to cook dinner for you (i.e. you know how to make a bologna sammich to fufill your hunger needs), but you WANT her to because it makes you feel good when the wifey is being domestic and ish. Same thought applies to women. We don't NEED you to pay our bills or fix our car, but it makes us feel "soft and pink" when you do. We like the feeling it brings, but we don't need it.
late response today but Hugh Jazz did that. I agree entirely. I'm a grown woman doing what grown ups do. I still want the companionship of a man. and I make sure that my actions and words do not suggest otherwise.
Fly, I love you. I wish more women were more accepting of chivalry. It is a HUGE turn on for me when a girl waits by the door for me to open it. She is telling me that she trusts me to take care of her. That is my job and I need a woman to trust me to do it without question.
Ladies, don't micro-manage your man!
Hugh Jazz – RIGHT ON! I agree with you 100%
I think a lot of women forget their needs in this argument. Do you really NEED to mow the lawn? Cheese. Really? I mean seriously.
Ladies, ask yourself this question: What I find most important in my familial relationships, my platonic relationships, and my romantic relationships is…
A) the emotional support they provide. Being there when I need a shoulder to cry on. Giving advice. Giving me a word of encouragement. Paying me compliments. Making me feel like I am the most important person in the world. Just holding me. Being a friend.
B) the help they provide with my day to day life. Buying the groceries. Doing the laundry. Washing the car. Picking up the children. Killing the bugs. Changing the car's oil. Checking to see if the strange bump in the night is a burglar.
I'll bet that every single one of you answered A. In fact, if you removed A from your life, you would probably want to stop living. Therefore, you do NEEEEEED emotional support. Why do you then equate a man, the most important person in your life, with B????
Really, you don't need a man to live, but don't you need a man to have the life you want? Don't you need a man to have a life worth living?
Telling someone that you don't need them and that you only want them turns them into a luxury. After all, what is a luxury other than something you only want?
If women don't need men, then aren't men then just kind of like a Mercedes? A Mercedes is great the moment you buy it. It's still very luxurious a year later. But after 10 years, it starts to wear out, parts wear out, it starts to look old, and the luxuriousness turns into a burden. Not to mention it starts to get obsolete. It doesn't have the newest innovations like a GPS or a hard drive for your music. In 10 years the cars will be at least parking themselves. If the Mercedes is stolen, the owner suffers, sure. Just as a woman suffers if she divorces her husband. But she will survive. She can take the bus. She can carpool. She will probably buy a new car. In fact, if she does lose the Mercedes, it will almost revitalize her life. Sure, she'll have to buy a new car, but the car will probably be better than the Mercedes. How do the "I don't need a man" women not treat their men like they do their Mercedes'?
We should feel about our spouses the way we feel about our houses. If a tornado takes your Mercedes, it's a burden. But if it wipes out your house, you are devastated. You don't just want your house. You need your house.
Husbands and wives NEED to need each other. Independence is important when you are single, but when your romantic relationship starts to get serious it needs to gradyally evolve into interdependent, whereby both of you need one another. Marriage is not two people living separate lives. It is two people sharing the SAME life! In marriage 1+1=1 not 2. You don't live 50/50. You live 100/100. Each of you gives 100% of yourself to the other. That requires and creates need.
Don't turn each other into luxuries.
lol…I reiterate..i don't 'need' a man to do something that I, as a grown azz woman, am supposed to be doing for myself, lol. I know how to change my oil and if I don't feel like it Jiffy Lube is right down the street. Would I ask you to…mmmmmaybe? Would I like you to do it? Yes of course, but do I you need to…um no, lol. Likewise do I need you to love myself…? No that's impossible only I can love myself same as only you can love yourself…did I lose you? lol. The kicker is though, that I want a mans love so therefore I need you, as a man, to love me…still with me?
I love when a man extends his chivalry to me and opens the door and its always appreciated by a thank you and a smile but I'm not going to freeze/melt in the snow/hot azz sun waiting b/c I need him to do so…I know how to open a door: grab handle push or pull, walk inside…very simple, lol(forgive me for being facetious)…but I do not know how to love me as a man would…now that I need…and like CPT said, it becomes about Interdependency..I need him to love me as a man who loves a woman loves.
Alex, you bring up marriage…whole 'nother ball game, you're building a life together, you cannot be independent in togetherness…oxymoron..at least to me it is.
Again..to me(Smiley Face)…being independent is taking care of what you have (self love) and nurturing what you want(love of…).
*tongue in cheek* If you need a Mercedes to appreciate your house…something's wrong with your house in the first place…
I am of the perspective that everyone, male or female needs a certain amount of independence. Depending on that level of independence, when you find a partner it can unite or destroy.
For example. I am independent as a result of circumstance, (trust, a man at home to submit to – in the proper sense of the word – would be welcomed), so I can not date a man whose parents heavily influence his every thought, pay his bills and intend to support him like a little prince until a woman comes along to fill the shoes.
Does it sound like I been there? Yeah, how about brother had a 5000 sq foot house but didn't have a check book. *sigh. But I loved him – just ain't work.
My independence and his non conflicted majorly. He felt I was a know it all, I felt he was handicapped by his parents. Conflict.
Yet even for an independent man, Independent women, even without the I don't need you attitude, are still difficult to partner with. When she has to do it all herself, it is difficult to invest trust in someone else doing some of it for her. That's not being a bitch, that is reality. Our hearts hurt easily. And honestly, most men aren't going/willing to work for/through it. They will just wife submissive Suzy and keep it pushin.
So. We adapt. "Fuck it. I got this. I'd love to not have to, but experience tells me otherwise."
By the way, adaptation is normal.
While I am not running guys off with my attitude, I am very much like, "yeah, in all likelihood, the ideal dude for me – don't exist. I hope he does, but eh.." Doesn't make me an ABW or an Independent Bitch. Makes me a product of my experience.
I think the problem is that people see the need for the term "independent woman". "Independent" should be..well, independent of gender. All it should mean is that one is self-sufficient in various aspects of one's life. At the same time, I hate the fact that the term "independent woman" connotes all kinds of negative images. My mother is an independent woman who has no qualms about deferring to her
head of the householdhusband. There are a few things that I roll my eyes at every now and again, but she's my prototype when it comes to model wife and mother. The fact that one gets into a relationship/marriage does not mean that one has to relinquish the title, because at the end of the day, a truly independent woman will be able to survive without breaking a sweat if things were to go south of the border. (read: independence is a state of mind, and the fact that you now share last names, mortgages and depend on each other for emotional support doesn't mean you can't still handle your own if need be)
All that said, it's important for a woman to know how to convey the fact that she doesn't need a man without sending the message that all men are therefore dispensable. It could be true at the end of the day, but who really wants to get with someone and constantly be made to feel as though they can be replaced at the drop of a dime? I'm personally not partial to the idea.