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F*** Chivalry

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*** SBM Special Note ***
At Single Black Male we strive to present a balanced argument.  Along with the usual “what’s wrong with women posts”, we have also covered man-whores, ways for men to show their love, and the state of Black Love in order to keep things balanced.  But sometimes … we gotta say something females won’t like … sometimes we gotta represent us … the men.

This entire week is dedicated to just that!  If your easily offended … get back at us next week.
– SBM
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Chivalry ... shot 5 times by the independent woman

If your a woman … you might be mad right now. Just reading the title might have upset you.  You might have only come here to sound off in the comments … and you might not even read this.  Instead of all that anger … breathe … calm down a little … and hear me out.

I have a long standing hatred for chivalry in modern times. I touched on it back in the day here and here.  But please, don’t think I am some blatant a**hole who walks around slamming doors in women faces and throwing ladies into mud puddles or something. I believe in treating people well because they are another human being. The concept that women are inherently weaker then men and constantly need our help … I just can’t co-sign that one.

See Also:  Enough Already: If You Can’t Afford To Date Then Just Don’t Date

Somehow, chivalry has become a banner for many women who want to simply pick the best characteristics of all the gender roles, shed off all the bad … and somehow claim that is is what my Dad wanted.  Basically … too many women are trying to have their cake and eat it too.  My problem with chivalry boil down to this:

Women, You cannot be independent, “I can do sh* by myself”, and “I don’t need a man” … and still expect for us to cater and pamper you!

It just doesn’t work …

In my opinion, chivalry was a system to “help” and “aid” the weak (women) by the strong (men).  And while this still applies to lifting boxes (I will carry the groceries of any woman within eye sight) … floor after floor of the glass ceiling are shattered on the daily. Women are no longer the helpless, “barefoot and pregnant”, can’t work outside the home folks they were for hundreds of years.

My Granddad might have offered his seat to a woman when she walked in the room … but my Grandma was subject to restrictions unknown to any woman today.

Chivalry’s death can be attributed to no one else but women.  Almost every guy has at least one story of an angry female who doesn’t need her chair pulled out, her door opened for her, or her bill paid for.  Even many who still claim to need chivalry in their life still want to walk acting “like a boy”.  Literally … I have had a woman say she wears her p*nis at work.  Well miss … if you wanna carry a d*ck around in your purse … don’t ask me for any thing.  You just shot chivalry!

See Also:  Chivalry is DEAD ... well ... Mortally Wounded

Now, when I am told I have to do something(give my seat up on the train, open up a car door, etc.) because as a man I must embody chivalry … I just stop, slowly turn around to the offending female, and then simple state “you can stand your a$$ up just like I would if I got on the train after me f* chivalry”.

As I said … Chivalry itself isn’t the problem.  Chivalry is part of a traditional gender role system that, while with its problems, kept balance in the universe.  There were things that I had to do as a man … and there were things women did … and somehow it all worked, well I guess it worked since people actually got married and didn’t divorce as much.

But fast forward … and things get funny.  There is an ever growing population that wants their well deserved newfound freedom and equality, but still wants the niceties that grandma had.  Don’t be greedy.

So to my women, I implore you … pick one.  You can have the freedom, the increased salary, and the open possibility for a female president … or you can have your car door opened, your plane ticket purchased, and stay in the house cooking and cleaning all day all the niceties your Grandmother enjoyed … not both.  I’ll still get your door, and I got the bill on the first date … but no mas.

See Also:  One thing women just don't know

Women …. #youmad?  Men … feel me?  Is it just me, or am I by myself?  What do you think about Chivalry in 2010?

– SBM aka “Open your own f*ing car door” aka One of the biggest feminists you’ll ever meet

Comment(269)

  1. Well hmm. I see where you were coming from but it's really not an either/or black/white situation. Maybe our definitions of chivalry differ? Cause I'm thinking generally polite behavior towards the female sex.

    I can be financially independent and free from shackles while still getting the chair pulled out and the door held open. It's not that hard. It's called balance.

    I'll respect you for being a gentleman. I'll not lord it over you if I make more and I'll appreciate you being the "man" in all aspects of our relationship. I will cook, we can share cleaning duties and I'll only run for President if you support it. In return, you can kill the spiders and take out the trash. Compromise?

    1. I am all for compromise and have found a healthy one in my personal life. I still do some of the basics facets of chivalry because they are well received and no major inconvenience, but when my friends mom yells at me for not picking up the bill for my female friend (who really is just a friend) because she is a woman … I got an issue.

      I find that most women speak of it in a black and white way. Either you are chivalrous, or your an a$$

      1. I wish to disagree to a certain extent though. I believe that if you have a friend or "homegirl" and you're both of the mutual understanding that either 1- funds are tight or 2- you always pay your own way, then that's fair and fine. However when it comes to someone you are dating, i believe there should be that chivalry that the an shows to her, if not out of him just being chivalrous then just out of respect. Now if the woman doesn't appreciate it, like anything in life, then you need to stop but i believe that a lot of women do appreciate a man they like pulling out the chair, walking her to her doorstep, as corny as it sounds! To me it lights a bulb like " he really likes me!" As an "independant" woman if i really like a man i will let him be a man, but he needs to want to be a man and not just be born of that gender!

  2. So your premise is you can't be pro "I am woman I don't need no man" and then expect Mr. Chivalry to come pulling out your chair. Right? Certainly can't disagree. Makes perfect sense. But back up to the chick on the bus hypo. She comes on the bus n heels looks hella tired and u r comfortably situated in your seat. Do you offer your seat? If no, why? You kno nothing about her and just maybe she is one of those women who r not beating their chests saying I am woman hear me roar. Bottom line my brothers were reared to embrace chivilary. It should be a part of u at this point. Its simple manners. Now if u encounter women who r on that "I can do everything on my own" flow, change your woman not your manners.

    1. I'm sorry … but Ms. heels put on them heels and I have absolutely no reason to believe she is any less capable of standing up because she is a woman.

      That is the point of offering my seat right? You are a woman, and therefore are less capable of standing than me, although you are my age and look healthy enough … right?

      1. I tend to agree with you on the whole giving up your seat on the bus thing, not really a requirement or proof that a man is an ass if he doesn't give up his seat to a woman who appears to be youthful and otherwise healthy…riding public transportation is like a competitive sport now-a-days.

        But what about the "men" who won't even get up for an old lady, or a woman who is pregnant, or one who is struggling with a baby, baby bag and the stroller…where does chivalry come into play in those instances?

        I've seen men feign sleep while sitting in those first 3 seats reserved for the elderly/handicapped or what's even worse I've seen men offer their seat to a pretty girl they want to impress while grandma is clearly holdin on for dear life swingin on the pole like a magic city dancer during rent week…

        Is it f*** chivalry all the time for all women regardless of age and ability?

  3. Wait… does that mean men won't expect a woman to clean and cook for them? Will men start doing their own laundry, doing the grocery shopping, etc.?

    For the record, I already don't expect men to open my door, give up their seats, and all that good stuff. I appreciate it when it happens, but I damn sure don't expect it. However, if we're giving up on the idea of chivalry altogether, are we also giving up the idea of the woman holding down the home?

    1. "However, if we’re giving up on the idea of chivalry altogether, are we also giving up the idea of the woman holding down the home?"

      That's exactly what I was thinking. If women are to stop expecting chivalry, then men should stop expecting women to shoulder most of the domestic responsibility.

    2. "Wait… does that mean men won’t expect a woman to clean and cook for them? Will men start doing their own laundry, doing the grocery shopping, etc.?"

      Hold up…women still cook and clean? Lemme find out…

      1. LOl. We do still exist! Honest to goodness we do. I cook 4-5 days a week AFTER working all day. Its really not that big of a deal I was raised in a household where meals were prepared daily usually by my mom occassionally by my dad, and I truly enjoy cooking so its not like a chore for me.

      2. This feels a lot like me asking "Wait, there are still men out there who are faithful?" I'm betting a few of you would consider that shots fired.

        Of course there are women out there who still cook and clean. You may not have run into one, but there damn sure out there. There are still a lot of women who take a lot of pleasure of being able to "take care" of their man and hold down the home. And, there are damn sure men that EXPECT this.

      3. Yes, some (all the females I roll with) of us still do. See, I'm West African and that's how my mama raised me. Don't start thinking that mama is a timid and docile housewife! LOL there's no question who's the H.N.I.C of the household. On a serious note though; my pa is the head and captain of his ship and has the final say. Mama runs the daily grind, though. Pa gets a hot meal EVERY DAY and has been for 39 years. Mama cooks EVERY DAY and that's what I do for my man. I get up and make him breakfast when he's goinf to work and he gets a hot, home cooked dinner EVERY DAY.

        But: he opens car doors, changes oil on my truck, fills it with gas, pick up the check, and fixes stuff around my crib. My point is that I do all these things because of his chivalry. I know of the change my oil, I got money to pick up the check (I do sometimes LOL), and pa taught me to fix anything. But I appreciate when boo-boo does it and I let him….

        1. *Waving to my fellow West African…hey girl*

          *Grand Ma side-eye* to the woman that does not cook or clean. My Father encouraged my sisters and I to achieve the highest ranks in our career but he also made us learn how to cook and he fired the maids once we were old enough to hold brooms and mops. My boo embarrasses me with chivalry and that is why I am proud to serve him the way I do.

      4. I cook better than most of the women I dated…it's as if women architects are designing houses without kitchens now….

    3. Let 'em know girl! That's what I was thinking too. If this is a give and take situation, if i'm giving something up bes' believe YOU are giving something up as well. You can't pull out my chair, then shoot u can go back to hunting and gathering since I sure won't be going to the grocery store for food.

    4. my mother raised me not to depend on a woman for anything. i do my own laundry, my house stays clean and i can feed myself. just wanted to answer your question. now let me go respond to this post.

      1. Well I'm guessing that that's because Nigerian women…or maybe just Yoruba women are SMART. I don't actually expect a man to hold the door for me or pull out my chair, apparently I can't expect this of men in this day and age anymore. But just yesterday at church I made an off hand comment to no one in particular about being cold…the brother sitting next to me took off his suit jacket and handed it to me. THAT's Chivalry, and it ain't completely dead. But I will hold the door for the next person coming in behind me, I even got up from where I was standing by an exit when I saw a man carrying a stack of stuff and woulda had a hard time opening the door himself. It's just courtesy. But if you are gonna go out of your way to not grant me these common courtesy's I will go out of my way to deny you some as well 🙂

      2. I guess that's kind of my point, it's difficult to generalize. However, if one just says f*** chivalry in general, I'm assuming that in general, men (whether cohabiting or not) will not expect these things from women.

        Not all "independent women" take chivalry for granted and expect it, just like not all men expect to be taken care of at home. Does that mean that men like you, who take care of themselves domestically, wouldn't appreciate a woman who will serve you dinner while you're relaxing at home, make sure your clothes are clean, do the dishes, etc.? I'm sure you'd appreciate that stuff, just like women would still appreciate chivalrous acts. And, like I said, there are still men out there who EXPECT the woman to hold down the home.

    5. FWIW, I've done my own laundry since I was ~12/13, dishes were done by my older brother and then me (and in between by my father), and after my younger siblings [two brothers, one sister] got old enough, we split. Moreover, my family had a system in which each person (both parents, my younger siblings [3], and I) all had a day to cook, which meant 4/6 days (we would order delivery or have leftovers on day seven) meals were cooked by males. The only exception would be holidays, but even then my father, siblings, and I would have various responsibilities. General housework in public spaces was also divided on a rotating basis between siblings.

  4. I hate that phrase, "you can't have your cake and eat it too." Why the hell not?! Especially if I just spent the last hour baking that mothersucker, I'll have that cake in your face and not share! Hmmph!

    🙂

    On a gentler note, like sanen85 said, I'd appreciate for a man to do things like opening my door or paying for dinner but it's not like I'd Lorena Bobbitt him if he didn't.

    As a woman whose "independent"-meaning that I support and take care of myself, not that I don't need a man because iLuv me some menfolk-I feel like men should appreciate a woman whose self-sufficient and can take care of herself without having to depend on you for everything.

    Shattering glass ceilings and being the H.W.I.C. doesn't mean we want to be treated less like women. And sometimes, a man doing kind things like opening doors or giving up his seat feels nice while we're cleaning up the broken glass from Superwoman-ing through that ceiling. It's tough out there for a woman (let alone a sistah!) in this white, male-dominated world.

    So it's not a matter of choosing independence over chivalry. It's simply a matter of a man realizing that I can bring home the butter and still expect him to open doors for me. I promise, I won't emasculate you; I'll run your bath water and wipe you down with fresh rose petals too! ♥

    1. The phrase you can't have your cake and eat it too is commonly misunderstood. It means, if you eat the cake there is no more cake.

      Of course you can have a cake and then eat the cake. But then your *ss has no cake. #iShrug

    2. Isn't the definition of "Independence" meaning that you do things on your own without the assistance of others? Not sure how having me pull out your chair still means you are doing it on your own.

      Maybe my understanding of the word is just off. If so, disregard this entire post.

      1. I just don't think there is an all-encompassing term for "independence". I think we take what being independent means to the Destiny's Child extreme which it doesn't always have to be. I can't speak for all women, but I know that for myself, independent means being able to survive financially and emotionally even if there isn't a man around. It doesn't mean that I don't want a guy to do anything for me!

      2. Can I get a comment on MEN being independent then if that is your argument? Men who can't cook, clean, or let's not even be that discriminatory. How bout men who can't tell the difference between fabric softener and detergent? lol. You aren't independent either if you need my assistance to tell you the difference.

  5. ….gotta go with the posters thus far on this one…

    i just find it funny that BOTH sexes want the double standard to work in their favor.

    men don't want to have to be chivalrous AND let us have equal standing in society FINE.

    but when i'm told that like it or not, i'm seen as a dirty whore if i have sex with a male mentality – because, well, there's a double standard – then i'm left scratching my head in confusion.

    either there's a double standard. or there isn't.

    as the first poster said – i think there's simply a balance to be had. most men feel uncomfortable sleeping (wifing) with a woman knowing that she done laid with the whole squad…. but some men are like Darius McIdiot and marry Superhead.

    most women are human enough to appreciate the chivalrous gesture (see tired feet and heels example above)… while others are have too much "little man" complex about it all.

    1. "but when i’m told that like it or not, i’m seen as a dirty whore if i have sex with a male mentality – because, well, there’s a double standard – then i’m left scratching my head in confusion.

      either there’s a double standard. or there isn’t."

      This double standard will exist until

      1) Men can get pregnant

      2) Women start to approach men more

      3) Men are just as susceptible to std as women

      1. People overgeneralize with the player/whore double standard. First, not all men who sleep around (e.g., a man who has sex only by paying prostitutes or cornering the market on women who are not considered, erm, "conventionally attractive"). Second, the player side of the coin is a function of your #2, an thus, as the game is currently played, a man who (odutside of the caveats above) is able to sleep with many women is differently situated from the woman who sleeps with many men.

  6. Here's how I see it:

    Part of where this premise comes from is that there are a LOT of women out there who can't even spell chivalry, let alone recognize it and appreciate it (one of the reasons why I left Philly, LOL).

    IMO, there's nothing wrong with chivalry, only that some women get chivalry confused with sponsorship, and this is why. When grandma was coming up, as alluded to in the blog, women period, let alone black women, didn't have the opportunities they have today professionally. As a result, men were the primary (if not sole) breadwinners in the household, so said man had to "take care" of his woman. As time progressed, opportunities in relation to education and gainful employment now became available, which changed the game. So just like the tax code and the financial aid code, certain aspects of gender roles are now obsolete.

    Chivalry nowadays is now up to individual interpretation and a true conversation needs to be had within the African-American community to get aligned. Otherwise, what J. Edgar Hoover started in the late 60's will go on to 50 years.

    1. "Part of where this premise comes from is that there are a LOT of women out there who can’t even spell chivalry, let alone recognize it and appreciate it"

      I don't think this is entirely women's faults though. If we're talking about chivalry in terms of male-female dynamics, then it would make sense that women are unable to recognize or appreciate chivalry (from men) because men don't show it as often as they used to. It's kind of like the chicken or egg debate.

      1. I don't think a reduction in the amount of chivalry makes it any less recognizable. Generally speaking, the over abundance of something usually makes it less distinguishable.

        That's why I can barely tell an Accord from a Camry … but I can sure spot a Corvette from a distance (yes … I know this isn't the strongest analogy … but it works on some level … right?)

        1. If something hasn't ever existed in your life, how would you know what it was? No one knew what the internet was in 1981. You can spot a Corvette from a distance, but if I've never seen a Corvette in my life (and the "Corvette" sign wasn't within reading distance), I wouldn't know what it was. Same thing goes for chivalry: if I've never experienced it, then how can I know how to appreciate it?

  7. You guys would do "Represent Men Week" the week I'm out of town for my job!

    Since typing on a Blackberry sucks, I'll be brief. I won't say eff chivalry, but I will say women need to make up their mind if they want it or their independence. To make the old axiom make sense (since some people don't understand what it means), you can't eat your cake and save it for later. Make a decision, ladies. We'll be down either way, but the double-dipping has to stop.

    1. Hugh, how can you expect the whole gender to choose one or the other?? Just like anything else in life, that's never going to happen… I think as a man you should alter your "chivalry level" to suit the woman you are dating. If she is walking around w/ "I AM WOMAN" tattooed on her pecs then allow her to get her own car door. Lol. Or as a man, maybe you should date women who fit comfortably within the range of chivalry you like to show. Don't wanna show any? Date the feminist. Want to show a whole lot? Sponsor a stripper #shrugs

    2. Thank you for hitting the core of the whole post.

      You can't have it all! Its selfish and unfair.

      Independent means you can do it on your own. So how can you "do it on your own" and yet still need us to figure out that oh so tricky car door?

      1. It's the word "need" that is throwing me off. I don't "need" a man to open the door for me or pay for my meals. My arms and legs work just fine, and my visa hasn't been declined lately, so I'm good. As others have said, it is nice, and appreciated, but not needed.

        My mother, for example, sits in the car and literally waits for her beau to open the car door for her. And of course, he comes and opens it. I guess it makes her feel good. Thats just crazy to me. I'm out the car too quick for me to even realize that he was heading over to open the door for me. Since I don't expect a man to open the doors for me, I probably do miss the guys that are trying to be gentlemen and open them for me.

        However, there are expectations to the rules. If we are attending a formal event and attire & attitudes are a bit higher than usual, then yes, I would expect a little more "gentlemen" from him, and he, of course, she expect a little more "lady" from me.

        It should not just be the men that are paying for meals nor should the ladies pay all the time. Take turns. In the past, I've found myself footing the bills more than my mates. Now, that could have been the men I was dating, but I clearly don't have a problem with paying. The problems comes into play when he or she is paying all the time. Now that isn't fair to either person.

        1. I 100% co-sign.

          If I do it, and you appreciate it, and I don't mind … that's great. Everyone is happy … no one is complaining.

          But … nothing irks me more than someone who just stands in front of a door with arms folded or sits in the car refusing to open their own door.

        2. "But … nothing irks me more than someone who just stands in front of a door with arms folded or sits in the car refusing to open their own door."

          Are there women out there who are like this – really?

          If these are the types of women you are running into then I totally understand your beef.

          Arguments re the role women have played in the demise of chivalry aside, one thing is for certain: men are more likely to choose to behave chivalrously for women who POLITELY show their appreciation for those same actions.

          So sitting in a car all screw faced (I still can't believe people do this) and demanding he 'man up' by opening the door for you, probably isn't going to put your man in the mood to extend you the courtesy of being treated like a lady.

          I'm just sayin'

        3. @SBM @ Skye Blue yeah I understand and agree with that. like Sydrichards I'm out of the door quick. I don't really wait for that, not in a car. my babe does open the car door for me when getting in though if he gets to the car first. and to be honest I didn't really expect it–because I move fast! LOL but he does it almost every time. and I always appreciate it.

        4. @Sky Blue

          I hate to admit but I have encountered these women, and I'm almost always caught off guard by it. The standing and waiting for the door thing has been pretty common. While no one has sat in my car waiting, I have been forcefully led to the passenger seat of my own car and instructed that I needed to open the door. I think this same person told me I needed to bring her flowers on a more regular basis also (and she was just an FwB hoping to get promoted).

          Instances like this have soured me

      2. @SBM – re walking you over to the passenger side of the car and demanding flowers – wtf? isn't all the 'chivalry' eliminated from these gestures if you have to force/cajole the man into doing it. i'm guessing that particular FwB never got promoted.

  8. For the record, although women have been making gains, on average women still earn less than men. Also, in my profession many glass ceilings have yet to be shattered by women. So things are not as "equal" as you have made them seem in your post.

    I think a lot of men think women wanting to be treated equally as meaning, we want to be treated like men. I know I have no desire to be treated like a man, I just want my position in society respected.

    Like I mentioned earlier, if women need to pick a side, then men do too. Men need to start shouldering more responsibilities domestically and shouldn't apply any double standards to women related to sex as thegingerfly mentioned. So if the point of your post is that women should be treated like men, since we are now "too independent," then in fact treat us like men fully with all of the benefits and disadvantages.

    1. "I think a lot of men think women wanting to be treated equally as meaning, we want to be treated like men. I know I have no desire to be treated like a man, I just want my position in society respected."

      This. and of course I'm for the chivalry. I have a man that exemplifies it. he's good to me & I'm good to him. The world will keep on spinnin' either way…there is someone for everyone…so they say. The women that don't want it or expect it will continue choose the men that don't believe in it. *shrugs* I however, will raise my future sons to be chilvalrous.

    2. If a man did attempt to treat women just as men (with all the advantages and disadvantages) he is instantly scolded.

      For every woman who wants full independence … there is a woman preaching for chivalry in all facets of life.

      For every woman willing to accept "the contract" and adhere to traditional gender roles … there is a woman saying "I can open my own door motherf*****".

      And as men … we are asked to appease both of these women.

      1. haha can you PLEASE produce one of these women for me? The ones that are cussing you for opening the door for them? It's like a man cussing at me that he can get his food his damn self…what guy is gonna cuss me about that?!

        1. Ok, so maybe I wasn't cursed out for opening a door, but I have been tongue lashed before for offering assistance or help. Although, I don't know if it was a "I can do it by myself" thought or "you just want some p***y" type of thinking.

  9. I agree with many of the posters. I also think that this excuse is pretty lame. What pain does it put a man through to open a door for a woman, walk on the street side, and to pull out a chair?

    I hope these basic tenants of chivalry don't disappear just because I decided to want more for myself than barefoot in the kitchen catering to a man.

    And ditto on all those double standard points. If a man wants me to be a woman (cook, clean, make babies etc) then I expect him to be a man and handle his business.

    1. Pain … or is it principle. I aint in the business of just doing sh* just for the sake of doing it.

      I just think its wholly unfair for so many women to truly embrace their newfound independence, publically stating that they don't need a man for anything … but then they need a man to pull out their chair.

      GTFOH

      1. I'm not sure why the principle is so strong. Doing stuff for the sake of just doing it? I don't think so. Chivalry is the basis of a man showing that he knows how to be a man for a woman.

        Pulling out a chair is not going to kill you.

        Me being independent does NOT mean that I don't want a man. It means that rather than relying 100% on a man, I can handle business on my own. That also ensures that when I do have a man, I'm not clingy and overly dependent. It means that I have a voice in my relationship and grounds for voicing my discontent if something goes wrong.

        So keep pulling out those chairs and holding open those doors. I still don't see why the idea of doing so offends you so strongly. Holding out a door isn't going to kill you and if it does, you should check your ego. I've never been anything but enthusiastic and pleased when a man goes that extra little mile. Its a sign that he understands traditional gender roles and I am a strong believer that a man should be a man and a woman should be a woman.

        Also, by check your ego, I mean no disrespect, but it all just seems so silly that its such a big deal.

  10. Love your disclaimer–but I'll still get my SBM read on for the week. 🙂

    Reference today's topic…put the breaks on. Why can't a woman have it all? Just because a woman is independent, it does not mean she doesn't have a need for all those things.

    I want it all and there's not a doggone thing wrong with it. Yes, open the door, pay for those dates, give up that last seat (on the bus, because we don't have trains here).

    Back to working on my next bestseller—good day!

    1. And this is the core of my beef. Why should women have it all? Do I get to cherry pick the best of the gender roles (free dinners, always having a seat when I need to sit, never being called a hoe, and unlimited earning potential) while shirking all the negative aspects (being expected to cook, allowing the other to lead, being told I can't exist without having a mate to care for me)?

      I just don't see why women have earned the right to "have it all".

      1. i agree SBM…

        im still trying to figure out why women (in general, no one on here specifically) focus on these very unimportant things.

        im sorry, but im too busy focusing on whether or not me and the guy's personality click together instead of on whether or not he pulls my seat out for me or opening my door.

        but then again, im not single…

        1. There's nothing wrong with wanting a man to treat you with respect, and wanting him to take on the lead role of a relationship by doing chilvarous things. You don't have to give up your independence for that. I'll have to blog about this on my own site soon because it seems that a lot of us have lowered our expectations so certain things become the norm.

      2. I get the "No one can have it all" thing (heck, I've said it before myself).

        But is working outside and inside the home really "having it all"? I don't consider being able to take care of myself and having a man be nice to me as having it all. If that's the case I "have it all". It's not the pampered life you make it out to be. We're still 2 people finding balance and making it work.

        @chocolate drop:

        I see where you're coming from, but I would consider some of those smaller things signs for what I'll be dealing with later. If a man can't treat me like a lady in the beginning I know we won't be compatible. That's just who I am. The guy might be great for someone else…but that won't fly over here.

        1. hmmm…ok ok i see….

          but i guess the thing i dont understand is: why are those things a sign of being treated like a lady? im really curious because its just different for me.

          like for me, i focus on bigger things to determine if im being treated right or not. like, affection when we are alone, as opposed to pulling my seat out or something like that.

          i dont want some guy im just meeting to do anything for me…especially things that i think are super considerate and only a guy who truly cares for me would do. like why would someone who you just met and are, say, on a first date with want to do these types of things for someone he just met too. just like women say they wouldnt spend money on a guy on the first date, then why should he do these things.

          i mean, i can understand wanting your boyfriend/fiance/husband to do those types of things just out of love for you. but at the same time…why not show the same types of consideration for him too. like for me, i would hold the door for my fiance because i genuine care.

          to me, chivalry is a sign of genuinely caring about someone…not just any ol random person. especially when people in this world are selfish pieces of sh*t these days…

        2. Here's where I think we differ: I don't see chivalry as something you do for your s.o. I believe chivalry is a part of how you were raised.

          I saw my father do it.

          My brother does it.

          My uncles, grandpa and the rest of my fam that has "family jewels" practice it.

          Chivalry speaks more to how the man was raised than on the man's relationship to the woman. When I was dating I wanted a "man" – the kind of man that my father was. I refused to settle for less than the example my father showed me.

        3. ok, im understanding more….

          well can i ask you something. do you ever think that maybe you might pass up on a great guy who would give you the world if he could simply because in the beginning he did not do all of these things….but given time he could grow to have feelings for you and treat you the best you've ever been treated?

          i guess i just feel that if you just met somebody, there shouldnt be so many high expectations on how they treat you. maybe some men in the past put so much energy into a woman only to be dismissed…and maybe now he wants to wait and see if you are worth the effort first.

        4. I def see where you're coming from – but to answer your question, no. The guy may be great – really – but he's not going to be compatible with me. I can't respect a man who wants to be treated the same way I do.

      3. The main issue is women have to be independent or else they'll be stuck on the side of the road and sit and let life pass them by. Why should a woman put her life on hold?

        When I meet a man who can be all that I need, then I have no problems letting him take the lead within reason. Some release of independence are only reserved for a husband—not a boyfriend.

  11. iCosign sooo many of the posters.

    I don't see chivalry & independence countering one another. The way you define them makes all the difference. There are extremes to both… The extreme chivalry when Grandpa was not only pulling out chairs and putting jackets over puddles but was paying all the bills for Grandma too & the extreme independence "I am woman… hear me ROAR," & I got penis envy. Of course, those would clash at every turn.

    However, me having my own job… making equal pay, not having to fully depend on you financially (moderate independence, if you will), shouldn't counter your walking street side, pulling out my chair & opening my car door. *shrugs* I just don't see the issue w/ the balance here. I understand that as men, at one time or 'nother you've run into the biggest feminists on Earth but like noname said "change your woman not your manners."

  12. Ok since I dont have my blood pressure meds Im am really goon try and just lurk all this week

    Cause I am already so heated and its not even 10

    Is there a reason your so freakin hostil so early on a Monday? I mean d*mn

  13. first time posting but a long time lurker lol….

    i agree with this post. well actually i didnt read it, i skimmed it. but the title alone makes me say i agree. i hate having my door opened for me and my seat pulled out and things like that. i guess thats why i tend to go for men who are a little "hood"…not thugs necessarily…just guys who come from a certain type of background like i do. but at the same time im also not gonna cook and clean like a slave…we can share those responsibilities…me and my fiance are working out just fine with this arrangement. i really hate chivalry. i mean, i really hate it lol. just not my thang. i guess its because i grew up without my father around and was raised by my mother. and did the college thing. so i guess thats where my whole mentality comes from….that i can live my life without a man and i didnt go to college to turn around and be dependent on a man.

    i sometimes feel that women focus on the little unimportant things when dating or in a relationship. well, i hope it works out for you ladies who are single. i wont go further because i recognize a name or two on this blog from another blog and people told me on the other one that i seemed cocky just because i spoke a lot of common sense sh*t…

    well, to each his own….

      1. thanks

        well, im very outspoken so im sure you will either hate me or love me. there really is no middle lol…..

        1. Don't worry … we'll love you. As hard as it may seem, I don't hate any commenter as long as they are respectful to me and other. Please don't ever feel the need to agree with me … but do feel obligated to not talk about my mama.

        2. lol….i can evil sometimes, but d*mn not that evil…

          and with this week of posts dedicated to men, im sure i wont be agreeing with you too often…or maybe i will, because i do tend to side with men…

          so im prepared more for the females….like on other sites….

          *sigh*

  14. – A man's good manners and chivalry have nothing to do with the reward (women's appreciation). You either do it or you don't. Quit letting chickenheads dictate how you treat women as a whole.

    – Let me know when Black women START being treated like "dainty" or "weak" creatures. Since when (cue "Ain't I a Woman")? Takes a lot of cojones to tell a group of women who have been systematically devalued as much as Black women that our ability to not fall through a crack and disappear means that we don't need any help. Stop drinking that Strong Black Woman Kool-Aid. That Black woman IS strong, but she could also use your help. Even if she just needs you to help her feel like a woman after a day of being treated like SuperNegress on the job.

    – My ability to generate income has no bearing on my desire to cater to my man or on his desire to cater to me. Amazing how that can work out, huh?

    – If Black men are so intimidated by a woman who is financially independent that they can no longer treat said woman like a lady…..well, I won't even go there.

    – This dayum plane ticket again??? LOL, please quit beatin' this dead horse. She's not going to buy the ticket.

    – In the end I'm all about compatibility. If that's how you feel then you'll find someone who's beliefs work with that. Personally though, this sounds like a serious case of bychazzness. With some ole non-logical man-sense to back it up. So now there's a punishment for women working? Ninja, please. If she makes more than you get your weight up or find a broke chick. If she can't accept you being a gentleman than drop her. It's simple. But don't try to use the accomplishments of women as an excust to act like a woman yourself.

    1. It's not as simple as "get your weight up." Aside from the fact, that BMs have a hard enough time getting hired, there's the differences in careers. An MD (a Dr. doctor) will outmake me in every way unless I become a consultant and own my bidness. that's just the bottom line.

      It's easy to say get your weight up, it's much harder to accomplish.

      I won't even weigh in on chivalry b/c it can't get properly sorted until the gender roles get properly sorted. The "lack of chivarly" is a symptom of shifting sands of gender roles.

  15. I’m all for a well constructed sound of but this is bordering on BS… *sighs*…ok people let’s go back to the basics… MANNERS – unenforced standards of conduct which show one is proper, polite, and refined (not to be confused with chivalry)…opening the door for a lady is good manners…it aint chivalry CHIVALRY- its TRUE meaning is derived from the french ‘chevalerie’, itself derived from ‘chevalier’, which means knight (so when I say chivalry I am talking about dudes with a code of honour!!!) for knights the chivalric code of honour was based on virtues such as Generosity/Charity, Strength/Diligence, Courtly Love, Loyalty/Integrity/Truth, Nobility, Valour/Courage, Justice, Mercy, Faith, Humility When we call men chivalrous it’s cos we see them doing something apart from the norm…these men follow a code…three quick examples below ( if not my response itself will be its own post) GENEROSITY/CHARITY – just because Tiger Woods paid for the hotel rooms for his women so that he could hold them down while he chokes them and f*cks that a$$…that doesn’t make him chivalrous… STRENGTH/DILIGENCE – women are the weaker sex…fact! You don’t have to help with the groceries but you do it. 2 weeks ago I saw a guy struggling to load some exhibition gear into his car… like 20 heavy things. None of the guys walking by helped him cos he was a guy…I did and it was only when they saw me lifting boxes that the came to help (not because they recognised that he needed help but cos they felt bad I was doing it) …so yeah your granddaddy gave up his seat during a time you grandma was putting up with things I cant imagine but it doest take away from the fact that I also give up my seat for pregnant women and the elderly on buses…why…they are weaker than me…fact! (I don’t do so for kid cos they have more energy than me and I reckon I’m doing them a favour cos the little blighters dont normally want to sit still) COURTLY LOVE – vis a vis ‘amour courtois’ – one of its original definition by Gaston Paris describes this as ‘the lover (idoliser) accepts the independence of his mistress and tries to make himself worthy of her by acting bravely and honourably (nobly) and by doing whatever deeds she might desire.’…see why I am laughing out loud at your post…by this definition this trait came about BECAUSE of the independent woman NOT in spite of her! (a rude awakening for some of u guys with high score card against the independent woman but like they say the truth is hard to swallow) I could go on but I wont…but I will quote this: ‘Chivalry is only a name for the general spirit or state of mind which disposes men to heroic actions, and keeps them conversant with all that is beautiful and sublime in the intellectual and moral world’ So yeah I’ma keep this independent woman thing down, keep getting paid more money (and I‘ll cook, clean and do the laundry on Sundays when the cleaner and the cook have days off)… but I still expect my man to be chivalrous…why?…he knows when I say he’s chivalrous it means he’s something bl**dy special in my eyes Chivalry aint not dead yet (*praying* nor shall it die…amen)…so let’s keep it real and admit that it is not dying because of the independent woman…the few that understand it know it exists because of her…so when u say women need to decide cos they wanna have their cake and eat it…I say that that equally applies to men who want to be hero worshipped for just being men but who actually do f*ck all

  16. I’m all for a well constructed sound of but this is not one…I'm laughing too much to be upset by this but the fact the logic is wrong does make me sad… *sighs*…ok people let’s go back to the basics… MANNERS – unenforced standards of conduct which show one is proper, polite, and refined (not to be confused with chivalry)…opening the door for a lady is good manners…it aint chivalry CHIVALRY- its TRUE meaning is derived from the french ‘chevalerie’, itself derived from ‘chevalier’, which means knight (so when I say chivalry I am talking about dudes with a code of honour!!!) for knights the chivalric code of honour was based on virtues such as Generosity/Charity, Strength/Diligence, Courtly Love, Loyalty/Integrity/Truth, Nobility, Valour/Courage, Justice, Mercy, Faith, Humility When we call men chivalrous it’s cos we see them doing something apart from the norm…these men follow a code…three quick examples below ( if not my response itself will be its own post) GENEROSITY/CHARITY – just because Tiger Woods paid for the hotel rooms for his women so that he could hold them down while he chokes them and f*cks that a$$…that doesn’t make him chivalrous… STRENGTH/DILIGENCE – women are the weaker sex…fact! You don’t have to help with the groceries but you do it. 2 weeks ago I saw a guy struggling to load some exhibition gear into his car… like 20 heavy things. None of the guys walking by helped him cos he was a guy…I did and it was only when they saw me lifting boxes that the came to help (not because they recognised that he needed help but cos they felt bad I was doing it) …so yeah your granddaddy gave up his seat during a time you grandma was putting up with things I cant imagine but it doest take away from the fact that I also give up my seat for pregnant women and the elderly on buses…why…they are weaker than me…fact! (I don’t do so for kid cos they have more energy than me and I reckon I’m doing them a favour cos the little blighters dont normally want to sit still) COURTLY LOVE – vis a vis ‘amour courtois’ – one of its original definition by Gaston Paris describes this as ‘the lover (idoliser) accepts the independence of his mistress and tries to make himself worthy of her by acting bravely and honourably (nobly) and by doing whatever deeds she might desire.’…see why I am laughing out loud at your post…by this definition this trait came about BECAUSE of the independent woman NOT in spite of her! (a rude awakening for some of u guys with high score card against the independent woman but like they say the truth is hard to swallow) I could go on but I wont…but I will quote this: ‘Chivalry is only a name for the general spirit or state of mind which disposes men to heroic actions, and keeps them conversant with all that is beautiful and sublime in the intellectual and moral world’ So yeah I’ma keep this independent woman thing down, keep getting paid more money (and I‘ll cook, clean and do the laundry on Sundays when the cleaner and the cook have days off)… but I still expect my man to be chivalrous…why?…he knows when I say he’s chivalrous it means he’s something bl**dy special in my eyes Chivalry aint not dead yet (*praying* nor shall it die…amen)…so let’s keep it real and admit that it is not dying because of the independent woman…the few that understand it know it exists because of her…so when u say women need to decide cos they wanna have their cake and eat it…I say that that equally applies to men who want to be hero worshipped for just being men but who actually do f*ck all

  17. I’m all for a well constructed arguement but I'm laughing too much to be upset; however the fact that the logic behind this post is wrong does make me sad… *sighs*…ok people let’s go back to the basics… MANNERS – unenforced standards of conduct which show one is proper, polite, and refined (not to be confused with chivalry)…opening the door for a lady is good manners…it aint chivalry CHIVALRY- its TRUE meaning is derived from the french ‘chevalerie’, itself derived from ‘chevalier’, which means knight (so when I say chivalry I am talking about dudes with a code of honour!!!) for knights the chivalric code of honour was based on virtues such as Generosity/Charity, Strength/Diligence, Courtly Love, Loyalty/Integrity/Truth, Nobility, Valour/Courage, Justice, Mercy, Faith, Humility When we call men chivalrous it’s cos we see them doing something apart from the norm…these men follow a code…three quick examples below ( if not my response itself will be its own post) GENEROSITY/CHARITY – just because Tiger Woods paid for the hotel rooms for his women so that he could hold them down while he chokes them and f*cks that a$$…that doesn’t make him chivalrous… STRENGTH/DILIGENCE – women are the weaker sex…fact! You don’t have to help with the groceries but you do it. 2 weeks ago I saw a guy struggling to load some exhibition gear into his car… like 20 heavy things. None of the guys walking by helped him cos he was a guy…I did and it was only when they saw me lifting boxes that the came to help (not because they recognised that he needed help but cos they felt bad I was doing it) …so yeah your granddaddy gave up his seat during a time you grandma was putting up with things I cant imagine but it doest take away from the fact that I also give up my seat for pregnant women and the elderly on buses…why…they are weaker than me…fact! (I don’t do so for kid cos they have more energy than me and I reckon I’m doing them a favour cos the little blighters dont normally want to sit still) COURTLY LOVE – vis a vis ‘amour courtois’ – one of its original definition by Gaston Paris describes this as ‘the lover (idoliser) accepts the independence of his mistress and tries to make himself worthy of her by acting bravely and honourably (nobly) and by doing whatever deeds she might desire.’…see why I am laughing out loud at your post…by this definition this trait came about BECAUSE of the independent woman NOT in spite of her! (a rude awakening for some of u guys with high score card against the independent woman but like they say the truth is hard to swallow) I could go on but I wont…but I will quote this: ‘Chivalry is only a name for the general spirit or state of mind which disposes men to heroic actions, and keeps them conversant with all that is beautiful and sublime in the intellectual and moral world’ So yeah I’ma keep this independent woman thing down, keep getting paid more money (and I‘ll cook, clean and do the laundry on Sundays when the cleaner and the cook have days off)… but I still expect my man to be chivalrous…why?…he knows when I say he’s chivalrous it means he’s something bl**dy special in my eyes Chivalry aint not dead yet (*praying* nor shall it die…amen)…so let’s keep it real and admit that it is not dying because of the independent woman…the few that understand it know it exists because of her…so when u say women need to decide cos they wanna have their cake and eat it…I say that that equally applies to men who want to be hero worshipped for just being men but who actually do f*ck all

  18. Whoa wait … woman in this modern day and age still "shoulder most of the domestic responsibility"??? That must be a US thing …

    Woman (some, not all) here in Canada will let you know that they went to work all week too or were in class all day the same as you, so they are not going to shoulder any responsibility or cook a meal, clean the house all by themselves.

    I say if you are begging for equality, let it be in all aspects of life. How are you Miss Independent except when you need a jar opened, spider killed, seat on the bus, dinner paid for, groceries carried, door opened, tire changed, oil change, plumbing leak fixed, house painted, vitamin S, etc …

    I was taught to be a gentleman and consider myself to be traditional, so I have no problem doing the "manly" things, especially if she is going to do the "womanly" things. I just have to shake my head and smile or laugh when we're walking to the car, I hit the keyless entry and you stand at the door with your arms cross waiting for your door to be opened.

    Guess at the end of the day it just comes back to compromise.

    1. OK so I live in the good country of Canada after living in South America, and the US. I disagree with you 100% haha. There are still domestic goddesses in this country and it is not much different than in the US. Maybe you're just coming from personal experience. I'll tell u, a lot a females blow steam about how they're not feelin to cook for a guy, etc etc etc. But by the time these girls get in a relationship they really are in to I bet their tune would have changed. My daddy taught me how to check the oil in my car and put more when needed and put in my windshield washer. I kill the spiders I see cuz my sisters are punks and i'm not gonna call my dad to do it. I can do a lot of things you could say a girl would 'expect' a man to do, but it doesn't change the fact that if my man offers to check my oil i'm gonna let him do it, and I will appreciate it so much even if I could do it myself.

  19. I'm a southern girl (born in Mississippi, raised in Memphis, living in Dallas) so my views may be a little old-fashioned. I desire MEN because their essence is different from mine. I love a man who is a gentleman because it makes me feel feminine and I think it's sexy. I don't wanna be out with a guy that treats me like one of the boys. Opening doors, paying for dates and pulling out chairs is the norm for me. I would think the guy was a jerk if he didn't. But, I also cook and clean. Heck, when you're a guest in my home, i'll fix your plate and bring it to you. But, there is a balance. The money I spend on groceries and Heneiken (for dude) shows my appreciation for him footing the bill for a few dinner dates. I'll leave the tip occasionally and if I invite you out I always pay (but I love when a man insists- but it's not expected), whether it's dinner, drinks or an activity I enjoy. I work everyday and I pay ALL my own bills, not because I am an "independent woman that doesn't need a man" but because I am responsible for myself. I call myself self-suffificient. I will never be one to holler I don't need a man. I definitely need and want their companionship. It keeps the balance in my universe. So, keep being a gentleman and find someone who appreciates your chivalry. The ability to earn money has not made me any less of a woman. I still believe MEN protect, provide and lead and WOMEN nurture, support and submit. Just my thoughts.

    1. good post. a lot of what many people call 'independent' is really self- sufficient as you stated. all adults should be self sufficient. that doesn't mean a women shouldn't expect a man to have manners.

  20. just like men shuld not expect a 50/50 finaces responsibility when the chores/housekeeping are not shared 50/50,this is the 21st century,gender equality.the traditional role for the man is to be 100% the provider finacially, my parents are a typical example of this.then the woman submits totally and does all the chores/child rearing/housekeeping etc.

    funny i dont expect men to protect/pamper me cos i believe strongly tht what a man can do a woman can do better.physically though, men arwe stronger , by virtue of this to make the eco system balanced , they shd do more physical work, carry luggages/heavy stuff around the house.

  21. This made me think of a post from Brandon St. Randy's blog (Manlaw Vol. 1). Here's my favorite quote:

    "2. Do Chivalry. There’s a lot of hemming and hawing on the blogs and around the bars about women not appreciating chivalry or wanting to be all independent and open their own door and sh*t. Or even mouthing off when chivalry is offered. Shut that sh*t down. Stop being all sensitive about whether you’re gonna get a thank you card or a smile. Chivalry is not about reciprocity, it’s about you as a man doing the things that are right. If she doesn’t appreciate it, that’s fine. Another one will.

    Open the door for a woman and if she gives you some lip about “I can do that myself”, let her know that she’s the woman in this relationship and that you wear the pants. You’re gonna open the door because that’s what you’re gonna do. When a woman challenges your chivalry, she’s disrespecting you, and as a man its your job to put her a$$ in check. you’re doing the both of you a favor here by letting her know that it’s alright to accept kindness."

  22. I ain't got time for all your dissertations.

    I'll make this quick for all of you.

    Eff chivalry. As long as some other dude is beating without exhibiting any chilvalry or respect whatsoever, do not try and make me do it either. And since most of you who aren't virgins have had your share of ain't skit bromans, no chivalry for you.

    1. I normally agree with you but not on this one. The logic is flawed b/c it was applied to other parts of relationships, all hell would break loose.

      Some broads get wifed up after being complete schmeezies, so all jawns should.

      Some dudes simp on women, so all should.

      And there is a huge loophole in your argument. What happens if a woman only allows chivalrous dudes to pipe, so now are you gonna be chivalrous?

      1. No I was very clear there is no loophole. If a chick says to me, I don't deal with guys who aren't exhibiting chilvalry when dealing with me, and the story checks out. Then i'm all for it. The problem is there are little to none of them like that.

        The other thing is i'm talking about exactly what i'm stating. I'm not making a blanket statement and apply this theory to all those other concepts. I'm talking about the fact that women do not require chivalry from all men, they cannot expect some to give and others not to.

  23. I'm SO annoyed by black men who make this weak a$$ argument that ignores the history of feminism and black women's relationship to it. black women have historically NEVER been barefoot and pregnant, working in the home. this viewpoint is only valid from white men's perspectives. black women have always worked outside of the home as most black men were barred from jobs that allowed their households to exist on one income. white women may have killed chivalry in the white community, but that has absolutely NOTHING to do with the black community. i'm so annoyed when black men choose to pervert history and ignore the black woman's place in the womanist movement (which was vastly different than white women's feminist movement). and the whole "independent" movement among women annoys me as well- as an adult, you should be independent. but also, let's not ignore history: celebrating independence of black women was simply putting a positive connotation on something that black women have ALWAYS HAD to be. ugh

    anyway, being chivalrous isn't about black women being weaker. it's simply about doing something kind and respectful. this whole argument about equality is ridiculous and a way people have historically used the quest for equality to punish those seeking it (ex. sheriffs forcing women into chain gangs because women were "equal" or being a colorblind society because blacks and whites are "equal- both of these ignore realities). since when does asking for equal rights, access to education, and equal pay to carry our (black men and women) households and better raise our (black men and women) children mean that you shouldn't hold a door for us or offer us seats on the bus when we've been working in heels all day?! heels that are part of the dress code in many offices because it's part of a dress code that women did not craft. until you carry and nurse children, stand your ass up and give women seats. jesus. and yet the same men that spout this expect women to cook and keep a household. so we're only in to tradition and gender norms when it suits you? this whole tit for tat and childishness about "equality" which for black women had everything to do with equal pay and respect in the workplace so we can feed and clothe black children, and nothing to do with wearing penises at work, is sickening.

    anyway time doing something nice for a woman engenders all this animosity and perversion of historical fact and present realities, you inherently don't like women. period. you may be heterosexual and you may enjoy sex with women, but any man who is bitter about giving up a seat to a woman, does not LIKE women. and that's a shame.

  24. How about we start by not putting all women in the same category. I don't run around screaming my independence from the rooftops. I'm educated, have a job and pay my bills. That's what you're SUPPOSED to do, so I don't need to advertise it.

    But, I'm a lady. I LIKE when men open doors or let me on the elevator first at work. Any man, no matter age or race, that does these things for me, is always met with a gracious smile and thank you.

    Why any person (man or woman) would give you the side-eye for opening a door is beyond me. To me, that's just basic manners. If a man is behind me walking into the building, I'ma hold the door open for him. It's just rude not to.

    Also, I do wonder if the "Independent Woman" thing is a chicken/egg situation. If men had been taking care of home like they did when our grandparents got married, would so many women feel the need to advertise their independence?

    1. Its funny, because a lot of the small things don't bother me. I agree on the door thing … because its the nice thing to do period regardless of race. And simple acts don't truly bother me.

      But I have been told I have to pay for EVERYTHING because of my p*nis (including plane tickets), and too many women use chivalry as an excuse to just be lazy when it comes to dating. Because of chivalry many women don't plan things, don't pay, don't meet me halfway in seeing me, and just expect everything to just be "taken care of".

      That … I don't like

      1. LAWD! Not the plane ticket again! It's just the FIRST plane ticket, not all of them.

        I like to think of myself as a good balance of being a grown PERSON taking care of my business and a traditional woman. I'm the type of woman that's not shouting my independence from the rooftops, and willing to play a more "traditional" role in the relationship. So yes, I want chivalry.

      2. [T]oo many women use chivalry as an excuse to just be lazy when it comes to dating. Because of chivalry many women don’t plan things, don’t pay, don’t meet me halfway in seeing me, and just expect everything to just be “taken care of”.

        ***

        *Helagramki likes this*

      3. [email protected] this plane ticket…a guy i was seeing offered to buy my plane ticket…i said no, bought mine myself and headed on over to see him in geneva…he bought his plane tickets to come and see me in london…we did this many times…

        when i was with him he insisted on paying for everything else…namely cos the thought of him not paying emasculated him…we parted ways cos i wouldnt depend on him soley…another reason was he had many women on the go…he was chivalrous to all of us and he expected me to be happy with that

        woman he married now has no job and sits at home waiting for him…she goes where he goes and does what he says…there's nothing wrong with that for some it just aint me

        1. Ant that to me embodies a lot of my feelings of chivalry. If you really want all the old school chivalrous reminents … you have to "know your role".

          I just have no desire to keep my women at the house all day waiting on me … do don't sit in the car looking at me out the window like you don't know how to use a door handle.

  25. Oh, and my pet peeve is men (and people) that don't give up seats to pregnant women. Like, she is fostering life. You know, the continuation of the human race? Her back hurts and her feet are swollen. Get your tail up out the seat!

    And, dudes that try to holla while being unchivalrous. Ninja what?! Don't watch me walk onto the MARTA, look me up and down, smile in approval and let me STAND next to you while you spit game from your seat. Not only will I not entertain your advances, I will let you know that you mighta had a chance if you'd given up your seat. Mean? Maybe. But, I have given non-ideal dudes a chance just because they opened doors and gave up seats.

    Being unchivalrous is your choice, but why devalue your stock like that?

    1. Now if a man gives you his seat, do you give him your number and offer to cook him dinner? To thank him for being so kind?

      Or like most women on the train, do you just look at dudes like they crazy if they smile and say good morning?

      Let's remember. Chivalry didn't exist for chivarly's sake. It was an exchange. A man expected a women to behave in a certain way.

      1. He will get a nice smile, thanks and conversation. And yes, I may give him my number, but a meal? Naw.

        LOL! No, I don't have the stank face if someone is nice to me.

        Again, let's not put all women in the same category. Just cause one lady didn't return your kind, "Good morning" doesn't mean that all of us will be nasty towards you.

    2. Co-sign. But the absolute worse is the fool that rolls up on me at the gas station and hollers from his car while i'm standing in the cold/rain pumping my gas. Are you serious?! Not, that i'm some delicate flower that i can't pump my own gas (i do it all the time) but i love a man that compliments my softness with his strength. But, get out the car and get wet so i won't mess my hair up. NO WEAVE.

  26. I must agree with the post. Chivalry was part of a social contract. Man will do ABC and women is expected to do XYZ. Today women still want men to do ABC without doing women doing there XYZ. And even when they do XYZ it's with an attitude that they are doing you a favor instead of them fulfilling there side of the bargin.

    Example: How many times have I seen on this blog women saying they would never pay for the first date.

    But then at the same time how many women are willing to say they will cook dinner every night if we get married.

    See the old contract was: Man pays for meals out and buys groceries. Women cooks.

    But now women want the man to buy the groceries, pay for dates and cook half the meals and wash dishes.

    Now I'm not sayin I have a problem cooking or washing. I'm just sayin ladies can't have it both ways. You can't be an "old fashioned girl" when it suits you and a modern girl when it doesn't.

    1. Apparently we lost some war at some point in the past and now our reparations include doing everything that we were originally contractually obligated to do … while also taking on about 50% of the responsibilities for the other side.

      I think there is actually a surrender treaty we signed, but no one has ever shown me a copy.

  27. SBM you know how I feel you on this. I don't have a problem with chivalry – for my mother, pregnant women, SO, or older women. There is a difference between chivalry and manners. My problem with chivalry is women acting like it is my JOB to do it. I have a problem when I have a woman yell at me "be a man and take off your shirt so I can wear it" because she came out at night not prepared for cooler weather. Some women take chivalry for granted not understanding that a man is going out of his way to take you in consideration. I still say that chivalry was the consolation prize for how women were treated back in the day.

    1. You feel my struggle.

      If I only had a dime for everytime I was yelled at by someone who wasn't pregnant, my mom, or my SO (just some chic) for not giving her something just because she was a woman … man … I wouldn't need to work.

    2. I've seen a few comments about men doing domestic stuff. In 2010 what man doesn't know how to keep a house? He may not do it as often as women but I don't know a dude that can't feed himself, iron his clothes, or clean the house. This isn't something woman specific.

        1. "That’s how we feel about you payin for stuff."

          For the record I am a man. And I agree with you totally.

        2. i swear i was just about to say i thought you were a man…and i thought you were agreeing with them lol….

  28. Because the post was getting too long I had to leave out some good examples in the past.

    ** A female friend of my female friend (a simple acquaintance to me) is walking near me and seeing that it is raining. Without asking she turns to me and attempts to grab the umbrella from my hand. When I hold onto it as someone I barely know is trying to take something from me … I am then accused of not being chivalrous for not giving her the umbrella. Well … your being a b* by trying to snatch stuff out of my hands.

    ** A friends mom makes a rather loud showing because me and my female friend are splitting a bill. According to her, even though she works at my company and makes the same as me doing the same work … I still need to pay for her because she is a woman.

    ** With a long distance girlfriend, I am told that I have to buy her plane ticket for her to come see me because "I am the man". I already bought a ticket to go see her, but when its her turn to come visit … I must pay.

    Maybe I'm just being anal … but in all of these situations I think "chivalry" is just used as a means for a woman to get what she wants and not contribute her fair share.

    1. Let me piggyback on that:

      Assuming that we all agree that marriage is a partnership, it needs to be just that: a PARTNERSHIP. Per SBM's examples above, specifically the third one, that girl is not a woman, and only women make wives. There's a thin line between financial chivalry and financial sponsorship.
      Before women start jumping down my throat, I do believe in chivalry still, although I, like a few brothas on here, have dealt with inconsiderate and contrite lacking cunts who blame it on not having a daddy in the household. I realize that a respectful level of chivalry is required to get a good woman to sustain attention (opening doors, walking on the outside of the sidewalk, helping her with her coat, opening car doors even if she doesn't do the "Bronx Tale" reciprocal action of not opening yours, paying for the first 3 dates, etc) anything past that should be a partnership if you are truly courting each other towards marriage; not just financially, but domestically as well (i.e. cook, clean, and care if your boo has an orgasm).
      Like SBM said, some women feel that "chivalry" is a valid excuse for them to not pull their weight in the relationship. Most men are not talking about going back to the 50's when barefoot and pregnant was the norm. Neither are we saying that women want to be men………. ok well some of us are saying it. But here's the bottom line: if my money and my time is OURS (per se), so is your money and your time. Get it?

      1. "Like SBM said, some women feel that “chivalry” is a valid excuse for them to not pull their weight in the relationship. Most men are not talking about going back to the 50’s when barefoot and pregnant was the norm. Neither are we saying that women want to be men………. ok well some of us are saying it. But here’s the bottom line: if my money and my time is OURS (per se), so is your money and your time. Get it?"

        Cosign 100%. This is my main issue that never seems to get across. It seems so one sided and if you rif about it they say you are being a baby and not a man. Wtf is so manly about getting shafted? I've met too many women that think that their sole responsibility is to be domestic and f**k him at her convenience and everything else falls on hm.

      2. I am SBM … I officially 100% co-sign this comment.

        When chivalry is just used as an excuse for "I don't want to do it" … then SBM has to jump on the soapbox and take the bullet for greater good.

        I want my memorial to be in DC … A big black rock of solidarity that women can lean on for support … but not push around.

      3. "I, like a few brothas on here, have dealt with inconsiderate and contrite lacking c^nts who blame it on not having a daddy in the household. "

        Err? o___O

        Why they gotta be all that though? Gah…Even if you weren't feeling them, this isn't the most appropriate way to describe a person. If this is the word you use to describe a woman/lady/female/chic/etc., maybe it's more of a reflection on you than on them. #justsayin…

    2. "** With a long distance girlfriend, I am told that I have to buy her plane ticket for her to come see me because “I am the man”. I already bought a ticket to go see her, but when its her turn to come visit … I must pay."

      Ahhh. So THIS is your plane ticket situation. Ok, she should've paid for that ticket because guess what? You bought the first one! I now see why you are traumatized…lol. This is totally different than me cause no one has purchased anyone's ticket…I've always said subsequent tickets are up for grabs once the first visit has been initatiated by the man.

      Other two situations were a little crazy . Don't judge all women on those broads. Who snatches a strangers umbrella??

      1. @Ash

        I know you like how I have managed to through that ticket situation into almost every one of my posts for like two weeks now … right …

        Anyways, in addition to the above mentioned scenario … there was a preceding situation. The first ticket was a big argument because she wanted to come see me in DC (she had never been to the Nation's Capital) … but she refused to buy the first ticket even though it would have lead to a fully sponsored trip to DC. The subsequent argument was just ground to finally dead the whole thing.

        1. LOL! Ok, she def should've got the second ticket, for sure. See? I do have sense, I'm not just trying for free trips here. You bought the first one, she should've gotten the second one off GP. She mighta been trying to simp you out, homie…But you escaped unscathed.

          I hope I have now proven myself to be somewhat rational in the eyes of SBM. 🙂

        2. Yeah, SBM – there's a line between being a gentleman and being a punk. You buying the first ticket is just being a gentleman. You buying ALL the tickets is officially simpin'.

        3. There was an argument about the first ticket too. I will admit the second situation brought the "anger" … but the first one had me giving the side eye too.

          For the first visit, I had already booked my ticket to come there (it was like 4 weeks away), but she wanted to come up to me in the meantime. Even though it would have been a d*ck filled vacation for her … she absolutely refused to purchase a ticket before I had set foot in her home town first.

          I just think, if you want to see me and where I live … what does it matter who goes first. Just come.

  29. SBM said

    Because of chivalry many women don’t plan things, don’t pay, don’t meet me halfway in seeing me, and just expect everything to just be “taken care of”.

    ____________________________________

    This one right here sends me into a Chris Brown like rage.

    Complain all day about we don't go no where or we go to the same places. Then you ask…."So what you want to do? " and she says "Duuuh I don't know?"

    Me thinking: Then STFU and stop complaining.

    Actually that used to be part of the social contract. Man pays….women knows when to STFU.

  30. You and this plane ticket….lol.

    Anyway….I totally agree. Ladies, we can't have our cake and eat it too. You can't demand chivalry in one instance but claim to be I.N.D.E.P.E.N.D.E.N.T. the next. It don't work like that. Do I enjoy when a man is chivalrous to me? Yes. I do. My boyfriend acts like this all the time and appreciate it but I don't demand it of him.

      1. Chivalry has been a gendered practice for a LONG time. There isn't anything wrong with being nice. Never said that. Nor did I say a man shouldn't do anything for a woman.

      2. I should have drawn a clearer line between being nice and gentlemanly (I am nice to everybody) and being told I have to do something for a woman because … she is a woman.

        They aren't the same thing. I'm all for being nice.

    1. BUT….don't expect to do all the cooking, cleaning and childrearing either. You can't expect traditional out of us if you don't want to act traditional yourselves….

    1. Chivalry (in my opinion and the opinion of many women I have encountered) is more than men just being nice.

      The paying thing alone (man has to pay most/all/first time/s) alone is well outside the scope of just being nice.

  31. i feel you SBM (no homo), but sometimes, you just gotta not care anymore. if you're a dude that does chivalrous things.. continue to do it. if you're dealing with some chick that wants to be on that independent sh**, leave them be to whine out their fates on thier twitters and their blogs. find a chick that appreciates what you do, and will show it.

    Do you, and do the right thing. that's all we as men have to do.

    1. I totally agree with this statement. The same should go for women as well. We should also do right by others and show appreciation when an act of kindness is displayed. No one is entitled to have dinners paid for, doors opened, chairs pulled back, etc. Any time someones goes out of their way to best kind/chivalrous to me i'm appreciative because it's not a given these days. If you find a woman who feels entitled keep it moving because she is probably selfish.

      1. This is the view on life and chivalry I have adopted. Too many of the women crying "Chivalry is still alive" just need justification for their selfish and self-serving ways.

  32. do people even deserve to be treated politely these days? i say no because people are selfish pieces of sh*t…

    see, this is why i dont even like those types of dates anyway. too much focus on appearances. how about we just go sit at the park…free and an easy way to get to know each other without all the expectations. when im single, i date to meet cool new people…not to feel like a princess for a night.

    1. I don't know about you, but I'm no selfish piece of sh*t. It just might be the people you run into who think others don't deserve to be treated politely that come across as the selfish pieces of sh*t.

      1. nah i meant in general….

        and yes i still stick with that statement….

        i do believe that people in general nowadays are selfish pieces of sh*t….who want everything without the effort. im not just referring to women. and im not just referring to dating.

        and because of my view…i dont put such high effort into men who i dont know deserve it yet. just as i dont expect a man to put high effort into me when he doesnt yet know if i deserve it.

        its as if women forget that men have something to lose too in this dating game. what man wants to do everything for a woman he just met when he doesnt know she is worthy of it…especially when people in general are selfish..especially when it comes to relationships/dating. men have to be careful just like women…..

        1. I just prefer to have a more positive outlook on people until they've proven that they don't deserve my effort. If I'm going to assume that someone is a selfish piece of shit, why even bother tryingt to get to know them in the first place. It may turn into a self-fulfilling prophecy, especially if you're already treating them like they're going to disappoint.

          I 100% get why you would have that outlook. It honestly takes an effort to try to give people the benefit of the doubt, and *most* people probably aren't worth it. However, I choose to give them that benefit more for myself than for them.

  33. SBM, as entertaining of a blogger you are, you continue to write pieces littered with grammar mistakes. I'm not trying to be rude, and this may not even make it out of moderation, but please note the following:

    you're= contraction of the word combination "you are"

    your= form of the possessive version of "you"

    I have been reading your blog for a very long time, probably 2 years now, and I swear I want to scream whenever I see you make that mistake. Hope you don't take offense.

    -MG

    1. You do know I got an email address … right?

      As with too many American's, certain aspects of my grammar suck. The biggest being the proper use of you're/your and their/there/they're.

      I know how to use them all … but with amount of writing I do for this site … I just don't have time for the fine tooth editing that is needed. I am happy and willing to except your services as a fully credited editor of content though … if your interested.

      1. No, not really. That's like saying why should we call you by the name your parents gave you? We call you by that name, because that's what it is; it's your name!

        What's the point of the english language if it isn't used correctly, especially the written version?

        SMB: E-mail sent. Didn't mean to offend, if that's the case.

  34. As a female, I co-sign most of this post. Ladies, we can't have our cake and eat it too. If we want to have a traditional man, then we have to be a traditional woman — and that means getting in the kitchen & cooking on a regular basis and doing most of the house work. Now, if I am reading this post correctly, the writer isn't saying he can't be a decent human being, so if a woman needs helps carrying groceries or holding the door when appropriate, he would not mind doing it. But ladies are becoming too masculine. All of this "I don't need a man" crap (all the while crying in your pillow at night because you have no one to hold you…) needs to end. There is nothing wrong with being soft and leaning on a man's shoulders — provided he treats you with the dignity and respond you deserve.

    And thank you, SassyNola, for letting folks know that black women have never sat at home barefoot and pregnant drinking tea on the porch. Black women have always worked, many of us nursing white children while ignoring our own, cleaning other rich white folks homes when our own was falling apart.

  35. Ay but seriously though. I can't believe some women expect a man to open their car door. What am I Farnsworth Bently? Are we riding in a horse and buggy?

    I'm not doing nothing on a first date that I don't plan on doing for the rest of my life. I even think pullin out chairs is a little corny especially if we only at the Outback Steakhouse.

    I do open doors. Too bad most women don't realize they are supposed to walk in front so that I can. Instead of walking behind me and expecting me to stand there holding the door like Mr. Belvadier.

  36. I'm of two minds on this issue. On the one hand, I'm with SBM – if women are going to prance around shouting out how they don't need a man to do anything for them then they shouldn't complain when a man doesn't do things like pull out her chair or hold doors for her. In that regard I agree that you can't have it both ways.

    On the other hand I think that chivalry is really just one part manners and one part treating a woman like she is valued, and why should a man have an objection to that? Is it really such a tragedy to open a door for a woman just because she's proud of the fact that she can bring home the bacon? Especially because women don't really have much of a choice when it comes to being independent – it's not really the done thing anymore to aspire to be a housewife. But then, I guess the women who join the ranks of independence grudgingly aren't the ones who go around proclaiming their 'don't need a man' status are they?

    Oh I think I just went full-circle there. So I guess I do agree with you SBM!

    1. And as you agree with me … so do I agree with you.

      The women that like a door being held for them and are appreciative of it (I don't need a thank you … just don't act stank about it or like it's my job to usher you in) … are good and great.

      But like you said, the ones who claim "I can do it all my own", yet will drop a good man for not opening her car door or sit with a stuck face when she is expected to pay on the fight date should be forever banished to singledom.

  37. All of these arguments against why a man shouldn't need to be chivalrous towards an "independent" woman makes it out to seem that these women are somehow committing the 8th deadly sin; like opening a door for a woman or walking on the side closest to the street is equivalent to a woman sucking a man's dignity dry! That all comes down to pride and you all not wanting to look like you're p*ssy whipped, forreal.

    I'm a woman and never have a problem being chivalrous. Hell, held up an umbrella for a man (a stranger!) when he was walking to the grocery store without one. Problem is, when I'm chivalrous towards a man, I've somehow turned him into a eunuch. i don't think it really requires that much effort to be chivalrous, and if a man finds it difficult to courteous towards me because I'm a woman, then he needs to check his own character.

    1. I should have made this clearer. Kindness and chivalry are two different things. Holding the umbrella voluntarily is kindness. Paying for every meal and event because your required to is chivalry.

      SBM supports kindness to women and all people (even a little extra towards women e.g. boxes carrying) … but I won't be lambasted by certain women because I don't want to get out and open a car door or I expect for my SO to pay for dinner sometime.

      That's the beef.

  38. Ok since chivalry aint so hard. Let's also bring back;

    1. Having dinner ready when I get home.

    2. Bringing me my slippers, pipe & tobacco, and remote control

    3. SingTFU when I give you the STFU look

    4. Ironing my shirt in the morning

    5. Planting flowerw while I cut the grass

    6. Changing all diapers

    7. Ask me if I'm hungry every two hours and fix random sandwiches

    If you do your part. I'll play Sir Lancerlot all day.

    1. Ok, no, like seriously! It's easy to try to use the MOST extreme examples of "traditional" to attempt to get your point across. Not only that, but being the research-oriented person that I am, I need some concrete facts and numbers about the prevalence of some of these actions (e.g. Ask me if I’m hungry every two hours and fix random sandwiches) outside of the movies. Sha'monnnn. I'm sure you've got a bad case of "Pleasantville-Much?!" syndrome.

      On top of that, I don't think most woman would have a problem having dinner for you when you get home, rubbing your lil' Terry Crews-like head, ironing your shirt, gardening (unless she has severe allergies, then it's all you), or changing diapers as long as you don't treat her like she's on earth to just serve you and meet your needs while she receives no reciprocity. That would just be selfish.

  39. Soooo, first you say:

    If you're independent you don't need chivalry.

    Then you say:

    Well, I wasn't talking about all women just the ungrateful ones.

    Then we see:

    Ok, I'm really nice and polite but I hate feeling expected to do it.

    Well, HERE'S WHAT I SAY:

    For us Grown-ups, our behavior and the standards we set for ourselves have NOTHING to do with what another person is doing. If being polite to women is your thing, do you. Don't expect to get your behind kissed by "basic bytches" when you try to treat them like ladies. And quit hanging around even MORE "basic bytches" who think chivalry is a one way street or that it means you just come out of pocket all the time.

    1. Like SBM said. Politeness and Chivalry are not the same thing. Not understanding that fact would explain why so many women fail in upholding their end of the social contract.

      Chivalry is a code of conduct between two people courting or envolved in a long term relationship.

      Politeness refers to rules of conduct for interacting with people in general. Not inside of an intimate relationship.

      1. Sorry, J. If you want a history lesson on chivalry check out Shooby's post-in-itself upthread. But semantics has nothing to do with the real theme:

        Men who want to be treated like women.

        Some of y'all men on here sound like you just got back from the MAC counter, bytching to the other girls about how no one appreciates all you do. It doesn't sound good. It doesn't sound……manly.

        NEWSFLASH: most things we do as adults aren't appreciated. Doesn't mean you quit doing it. Take your big piece of chicken and #quitcherbychin'.

        1. n*** please …

          Ain't no one b*tchin. I don't think any guy here is looking to be treated like a lady … but I think the argument is if your not prepared to treat us like a man … don't give us the side eye when your "lady-like" treatment meets an abrupt end.

          And if you can't figure comprehend the difference between kindness and chivalry … then the argument is lost and I can save my breathe because I will not be able to effectively state my point.

          Also … I passionately hate women trying to use the "u aint a man" argument in favor of chivalry. That same sh* is like a super "I want my way" card that gets played waaaay to much.

        2. Sorry, SBM – it still sounds like bytchin' to me. There are too many women who know what's right and appreciate a good man for you to come out with "eff chivalry". No, eff those basic bytches!

          I would consider myself to be *somewhat* ladylike. To me, this post is the equivalent of me saying, "You know Tyreefus n'em keep hollerin' when I walk past. They don't treat me like a lady, so I'll just stop acting like one." No sir. Not gonna happen. I'm the same awesome ME that my folks raised me to be whether someone else recognizes or not.

        3. You know I love you for your wit and well constructed (although often wrong … lol) arguments … but your killing me.

          I didn't say eff kindness. I wrote of several of the kind (and "chivalrous") acts I still partake in (door opening, etc).

          But this post was aimed at those basic bytches. If I could somehow invent a basic b* filter, so that these BBs caught eff chivalry and the "good ones (aka wifey potentials)" just saw a picture of me with a thumbs up saying "keep up the good work my nubian princesses … I love you" … I would.

          I can't, so I try and state in the post that this is merely for the women who want to have their cake and eat it. Have your cake … or eat that sh*t … stop trying to "have it all" 24/7

        4. @SBM – in your post it's the independent woman to blam and in this comment is now the post is now aimed at those basic b*tches…dude you cant have your cake and eat it…

          gotta co-sign what Anna N says 'Sorry, SBM – it still sounds like bytchin’ to me'

  40. sorry dude but i don't agree with you. most women in my life appreciate chivalry and most women in my life are independent. they have careers or are in professional school. yet they still enjoy acts of chivalry. funny thing is i don't do it for their approval. i do it because that's how i was raised. because it's the right thing to do. because i'm a man.

    i wish i would let a woman pump her own gas, or walk on the side closest to the street while i'm around. my mother would side-eye me with the quickness.

    even if a woman doesn't appreciate or like when you are being chivalrous towards her, i think it's our job as men to "make" them appreciate it. as men it's our job to lead. maybe if more men did this then some women wouldn't be so against it. *shrug*

    waits for the backlash.

    1. "i wish i would let a woman pump her own gas, or walk on the side closest to the street while i’m around. my mother would side-eye me with the quickness.

      even if a woman doesn’t appreciate or like when you are being chivalrous towards her, i think it’s our job as men to “make” them appreciate it. as men it’s our job to lead. maybe if more men did this then some women wouldn’t be so against it. *shrug*"

      Um…I think I may have an e-crush on you. No backlash here…

    2. My only beef with some of the things you mentioned is when some chic (I have no romantic ties to) if trying to force me to do these things for her or "requires" them from me. I am kind out of the kindness of my own heart … and not because someone throws a hissy fit when it doesn't happen.

      And as a few guys have mentioned, "chivalry" is often misused as an excuse for many women to half-a$$ the dating process. She doesn't have to do anything because "chivalry" dictates that she doesn't … GTFOH

      1. re: women (who you have no romantic interest in) "require" that you do these things. as a man just suck that ish up and do it. now if a woman comes out the side of her face at you i'm not saying don't respond accordingly. but can you really get upset at a woman who expects a man to be chivalrous?

        as far as the dating process, i think this type of behavior is easy to pick up on early on. if you don't want to deal with it, no one would think any less of you if you want to cut your ties and move on to someone who puts forth more effort.

        1. I think that's where we differ. Not really about "sucking ish up". Just not willing to take the "L" so some women can "have it all" (cite: Sheila Gloss).

    3. "i wish i would let a woman pump her own gas, or walk on the side closest to the street while i’m around. my mother would side-eye me with the quickness. as men it’s our job to lead. maybe if more men did this then some women wouldn’t be so against it." <— Clap. Clap. Clap, Clap. Aint nothing better than a man raised proper.

      Tunde….THANK YOU! A Nigerian brotha understands what the deal is. I was looking out for your comment. Please keep on doing what you have been doing. The women in your life WILL appreciate that. Do some community service and teach the fellas on here a thing or two.

      1. "Tunde, What you wanna eat tonight? Some rice and stew and plaintain? Pounded yam and egusi soup? I’ll cook for you anytime cuz your comments making me like you."

        LOL, U know ur Nigerian when…! For real tho! Nah tru Naija boy. His mom raised him well. Men who treat women like this have the ability to cause random's to offer to cater to him, and I am no exception lol when do we start preparing this feast???

        *oh some may wonder how I'm well versed in things Nigerian…well my people were 'brought' from Nigeria…we found a genealogist to trace my Dad's roots.* ANYWAY tangent!

    4. Well damn, can you spread the word to your fellow Super Eagles country men??? lol

      And thank youuu! Not only would your mother have side-eyed you, she woulda let you see her red-eye and no one wants that!

      1. **And the Naija chics start creeping out from their shadows one by one thanks to Tunde** lol <——– YESS!! LMAO!

      2. @ Anike, Tehee I was writing a long winded speech (Naija style) to thank Tunde :-p.

        @Tunde, we just need you to do a community service for our young men who see chivalry as a job (smh).

    5. y'all women are funny but i'm being so sincere. thanks tho. 🙂

      sbm i think the problem is you start off thinking about taking a "L". imo, that's the wrong way to approach things

        1. Still thinking about…"as men it’s our job to lead. maybe if more men did this then some women wouldn’t be so against it."

          Tunde, What you wanna eat tonight? Some rice and stew and plaintain? Pounded yam and egusi soup? I'll cook for you anytime cuz your comments making me like you. lol

  41. First, I want to give a shout out to Anna N., Ash, Shubbydoo, SassyNoLA, and Michelle… Great points, ladies!! And several other ladies and gents have made great points.

    I read some of these posts, and I thank God I've been blessed to have the type of men in my life who understand chivalry is more about them than it is about me. Chivalry is about being noble and honorable men. It's about the character of the man. My male friends open doors for me even if I don’t need it. They stand to allow women and the elderly to give a seat on the bus/train. They offer their umbrellas, they open car doors, pump gas, carry groceries. See, these men aren’t swayed by the Independent woman waving her “I don’t need a man” flag, because they understand that her independence does not negate him as a Man.

    When a man tells me he doesn't believe in chivalry, or that chivalry is dead, I know he is not the type of man for me. My father used to say,"chivalry ain't for everybody." Basically, all men are not of noble and honorable character, and chivalry was not meant for that class of man.

    1. 'When a man tells me he doesn’t believe in chivalry, or that chivalry is dead, I know he is not the type of man for me. My father used to say,”chivalry ain’t for everybody.” Basically, all men are not of noble and honorable character, and chivalry was not meant for that class of man.'

      @MIA – i counld not agree with you more…

    2. I just don't understand how the acts of "chivalry" you outlined really define a man.

      Things like providing for your family, taking care of your parents, volunteering on the weekend, mentoring kids, and educating yourself seem to be important things to define a man.

      If you are defining a man over his desire to give up his train seat to the 25 year old lawyer that just walked on … you will find your men lacking.

      1. The things I mentioned are not all inclusive. Those are what we call "examples" of some of the things you men gripe about doing for women. The things you mentioned are also important in defining a man. However, this post is called "f*** chilvalry" so I addressed a few example of chivalrous behavior.

        Chivalry is one part in being a man. It is not the only thing I look for in a potential mate, and I don't turn a blind eye to other behavior just b/c he opens my car door.

        1. What you want in a mate isn't necessarily what defines a man. I assume you look for other things to … but I generally have an issue when my manhood, or the manhood of anyone else is called into question as we disregard this one side corruption of a system initially designed with balance.

  42. According to these brawds chivalry is a dude trickin all day and expecting nothing in return……there is a name for these types of dudes…….some may call them suckers 🙂

    1. I really, really don't see where you get this from, especially from any comments today. Would you mind elaborating on why you think that?

      1. It just goes back to what me and SBM said. Chivalry and politeness or kindness is not the same thing.

        Read my defeniton of the two in my previous comment.

        1. I read it, and I still don't get it. Most of the posts by women here make it perfectly clear that women (for the most part) are appreciative of chivalry. I don't know, I just find this comment to be… well, sad.

        2. @Sane: The comments have shown that women are appreciate and respectful of kindness … no one has really addressed the more properly defined version of Chivalry that we are pushing (things your are simple required to do as a man for a woman for no other reason than they are a woman)

  43. Chivalry in the past = Treat me like a queen. I treat you like a king.

    Modern Chivalry = Treat me like a queen. I treat you like a rook.

    1. You teach people how to treat you and it's up to you to allow or not allow certain treatment. I don't know about you but i'm not allowing anyone to treatment me like a rook. *shrug*

    2. this is my observation as well.

      its like men are supposed to put all this energy into someone they just met…simply because they are a woman. i dont see a man who is cautious about the amount of effort he puts into a stranger as him not being honorable…or not high class. i just dont get why women (in general) seem to think that men dont have anything to lose as well. women can say they dont want to have sex on the first date because they dont know if the guy is worthy as of yet. but why are you as a woman automatically worthy of the star treatment. and yes it is star treatment coming from a stranger.

      not to mention that when people are dating, why are they focusing on whether or not this person is boyfriend/husband material so soon. shouldnt you be focusing on a friendship first…which would mean not expecting so much so soon….

      i really am looking to understand, because i just come from a different background than most im sure…..

    3. I would say that, pace some of the other posters (but in agreement with J and some others), a distinction needs to be made between (a) general human decency/manners/politeness (giving up a seat for the pregnant woman or the elderly [female AND male], holding open doors for people [of either sex]), (b) chivalry (gendered interactions between males and females on the the basis of gendered notions of respective roles, strengths/weaknesses, duty, "honor," etc., which were developed in societies in which mutual obligations were expected from both parties [think of medieval lords and serfs]), and (c) special attention given by a heterosexual male to his S.O. (which would also seem to entail a different set of reciprocal actions).

      If someone is arguing for chivalry in the sense of "b," I'd be curious to know what reciprocal expectations they have of women in the modern world. (NB, under my taxonomy, a man being highly deferential toward the mother of his children would fall under "c," and giving up one's seat to random pregnant women would fall under "a.") If there are no reciprocal expectations of women, just the expectation that men should be men and grin and bear it, then they're just arguing for the "have the cake/eat it too" scenario and for men to be marks.

      But hey, maybe it's not simpin' if you got it.

      1. If there is one major mark that I missed with this post it was spelling out these differences. I am firmly against (b), but you have a lot of people using examples of (a) and (c), calling it all "chivalry", and then trying to make us feel bad as a result of not wanting to give, give, give … and left looking like a simp.

  44. I read it, and I still don’t get it. Most of the posts by women here make it perfectly clear that women (for the most part) are appreciative of chivalry. I don’t know, I just find this comment to be… well, sad.

    ______________________

    So you believe politeness and chivalry are the same thing and should be extended to all females regardless of their relation to a man?

    1. No, I don't think they are the same thing. I'm saying that I disagree with the statement, "according to these brawds chivalry is a dude trickin all day and expecting nothing in return……there is a name for these types of dudes…….some may call them suckers " and I find it to be sad and it comes across quite bitter. Just sayin.

      I think that saying "f*** chivalry" because y'all are supposed to be independent and all expect us to still do this and that is a really general statement. I also think that if you aren't comfortable enough in who you are to just be chivalrous and not worry about what reactions you get, then don't be chivalrous. Most of the men I know have probably never heard the word chivalrous, and I don't expect that to change anytime soon, no sweat off my back. I've only once ever had a man actually open my car door, and trust that I more than appreciated that little effort and it made me feel special.

      Does the fact that a man doesn't know what chilvary means ever changed how I hold down things in a relationship? No. That applies to other relationships as well. Does the fact that some of my friends and family are unnappreciative of the things I do for them mean that I will stop being there for them when they really need me? No. I think that Tunde has the right idea in regards to chivalry.

  45. I appreciate Tunde's point.

    Chivalry has to do with honor, being gracious, courteous and considerate. All great characteristics to have whether male/female…none of which imply that a person should receive anything in return or even if the recipient of chivalry is deserving.

    How about we just focus on being kind and treating each other w/ respect.

    Basically, you open a door or give up your seat because of who you are as a person. I get your argument, but I don't see the point in not being chivalrous (if that's what you do) because women now have the right to vote, earn a living, etc.

    I see chivalry as an act of kindness not an obligation. Do it or don't do it, it's your choice. Still, when a man does display the characteristics associated with chivalry, I think it speaks volumes and it certainly gets my attention.

    1. The basic assumption behind Chivalry is that women are weak and need special consideration from men. It is a code developed in a time when women had no rights, and didn't work. Now in the year 2010 women assert that they can do anything a man can…yet they still want to be treated as if they are weak and need special consideration. To simultaneously assert your strength and independence while demanding special treatment based on the idea that your gender is physically and menatlly weaker lacks congrunence between your statments and actions. Basically lacks integrity. What do you believe. Are you my equal or not?

      Now don't assume because we point out your hipocrisy we must be some kind of bitter oaf with no manners. Of course I treat my women well. But the idea that a man needs to coddle every random woman he meets is dated to say the least. Actually if women were being consistent in their professed beliefs they should be insulted.

      1. Do you know how hard it is to get a woman to believe that Chivalry is based on the premise that women are weaker then men?

        I have spent post after post along with countless hours of bickering trying to preach this point.

        1. Right!! Like I said, if they were really being true to their values they should be insulted by me opening a door……..or is it just they know they are getting over and they like it.

  46. Chivalry is a form of courtesy. You should treat any woman on the street like you would want someone to treat your mom, daughters, aunts, etc. Its that simple to me.

    1. What your talking about I call kindness (mad I didn't realize this when I wrote the post). Kindness is simply being kind and respectful.

      Chivalry (as I see it) is the premise that I am required to do certain things (pay for all meals, never let you touch a door handle, buy plane tickets) simply because your a woman. Also, with chivalry, if you don't do it your are chastized and labeled an a$$ for not conforming.

      1. I'm glad you're clearing this up for me, because I don't feel like paying for things all the time counts as being chivalrous, it's a whole nother issue to me. That just goes back to the posts about being the one to pay for dates and the airplane ticket thang.

        Yes, I do expect the man to be the one to be 100% expecting to pay for the first date, and that's because he is more than likely the one that asked me out. However, I will happily stop him from doing so, because I don't see any reason why I can't put towards it. I mean, I did eat too (or whatever), right? Other than that, it should be something that you two work out on a case by case basis.

        1. I think another thing that needs to be pointed out is the scope/context of some of the things that he's talking about. So whereas you're talking about a first date, his friend's mother apparently expected him to pay for lunch for a female (platonic) friend simply because the friend's a woman. First date I can buy. Heck, if I invited you to lunch on a purely platonic level, I might be courteous and pay, as I might occasionally do for a male friend. That other situation, and the underlying notion of entitlement? Umm, no.

      2. I don't include plane ticket buying as chivalry. Im talking about pulling out chairs, opening doors, things that don't require money or putting yourself out. Old school chivalry…..its not going to make or break you, just treat people the way you would want someone to treat your daughters or other female loved ones…..

  47. I'm pretty late to the game, but I do cosign this post. I run into this a lot. It's like okay, you want me to do x, y, and z. Okay cool. But while I'm doing that, what will you be doing? A lot of the stuff I'd naturally, but when an expectation is set and I don't see an equal share of return treatment there will be a small decrease in my efforts or we're going to have a lengthy conversation. I will not be a simp!

    1. Exactly! A lot of the women who complain about a man not being chivalrous are the same ones who won't reach over to unlock his car door while he's walking around after having opened hers…

      That may be an old metaphor in this age of automatic locks but you see what I'm saying, right?

  48. Here's where absentee fathering starts biting us all in the behind. Dad's nowhere around, mom is working…and going to school…and raising kids. Watching a woman do everything without a man becomes the norm. Consequently:

    We have women who have NO IDEA of how they should be treated as women and NO IDEA how to treat men. Why? No examples.

    We have men who have NO IDEA of how to be a man….even those who were brought up right feel that their efforts are wasted on today's woman. Why? Their examples are women. And their thoughts/actions are womanish.

    I have 11 aunts and uncles – 10 are/were married. Those who aren't now are widowed. Growing up there was a certain rhythm to dealing with each other. And when I'm around my friends, we carry on that rhythm – cuz that's how we were raised. Then you get around some other folk who may not have been raised that way and there is a palpable discomfort in group settings.

    Ex. I bring my man a plate at a function. Chick next to me sits down with her full plate next to her man (whose plate is empty). Her dude looks at mine with a little envy before giving her the "you ain't spit" side-eye. Ole girl looked slightly embarrassed before hopping back up to fix him a plate.

    1. again, it just depends on what you define as being treated right….depends on what you focus on.

      ok, i have an example from one of my old college roommates. she was all into this chilvary ish. this dude did all the "right" things…pick her up and take her out to dinner, bring her flowers…ish like that. she got into a relationship with the dude simply because he treated her in this manner. but as time went on, he started treating her like sh*t…like, he wouldnt pick up his phone whenever she called, he wasnt that affectionate when they were alone…things like that. and she started to feel like he was cheating. turns out he was but she stayed because she liked the flowers, and the dinner, and the whole appearance. so instead of focusing on the important things like the affection, she was focusing on the little stupid ish.

      so when someone says that a woman doesnt know how she should be treated just because she doesnt care about chivalry, i just have to disagree. and i have to disagree when someone says that a man doesnt know how to treat a woman just because he's not all that into chivalry. my fiance treats me perfectly…i mean perfectly. but at the same time, he's not all that into chivalry.

      i feel like im battling harder than the men on here lol. im just very outspoken and love to talk alot. so sorry if yall get sick of seeing my posts…..i think i might need to shut up…..

      1. Don't shut up! Your opinion is welcomed by me, lol.

        To your example, I wouldn't let any one desireable trait in a man overshadow some very unsavory traits. That's like keeping a man around because he slangs great "d", has some $$ or looks good. Your girl sounds like she skipped the cake and took the icing.

        Otherwise, I stand by my statement. I've been to too many functions where someone had that "oops" look because everyone at the function is following unwritten protocol and they either weren't taught or forgot.

      2. I feel you. I have heard of this situation before. IMHO chivalry has no bearing on your character. When I was younger I would be chivalrous just to get the draws. The women would think I was traditional and so on. I was far from it. But it was easy to do with them because they let the chivalry write the rest of my story.

        1. thats what i was trying to get across but i dont speak so eloquently most times…and tend to ramble.

          but thats what i mean by focusing on the umimportant things. like, i dont believe that chivalry (or lack of it) defines what type of person the man is. and thats why i say focus on more important things that will let you in on what type of man he really is. because to me, chivalry is for show. well, not all men do it for show. but if it wasnt expect from men, most wouldnt do it. and thats why i dont focus on it…not because i dont know how to be treated. just that i have other things that i feel indicated good treatement.

          but i respect men like Tunde and women who stick to their guns and dont settle for less than what they think they deserve…so long as they actually deserve for more reasons than just being a woman….

      3. <<i>>

        it's cool with me..

        i mean most times, women talk, women complain…

        men shutup and listen…and either do what the woman wants, or what they want.

        i'm so used to women complaining/opining/"keeping it real" that it goes in one ear and out the other..like nagging, in a sense.

    2. in addition to how people were raised, maybe there are cultural distinctions, age distinctions and/or regional distinctions at play here?

      Its customary for southern men to be chivalrous/mannerable–they mean the same to me (I realize I am generalizing) but I am truly touched when I see YOUNG boys barely big enough to hold a door run to do it for me. and I always tell them thank you, of course. it seems that your kind words and a smile is all that they are after. *sigh* the innocence of children.

    3. I really hate when one's upbringing is brought up as an excuse for their current behavior/inconsideration/ignorance or anything else. I grew up without a father, and a large chunk of time without my mother and was in more homes than I can count. However, you bet that I know how I should be treated and I dang sure know how to treat a man. My man would have gotten his plate brought to him before I even thought about what I was gonna put on his, especially at a social function. It's just called common sense to me.

      1. I agree with you, but you know common sense aint common for everybody. LOL. You have to want to do some things, which is also why you sometimes see siblings raised in the exact same household with entirely different attitudes on life and actions. I think how you are raised CAN play a role but its not THE only factor. not at all. it also has to do with your exposure, which can come later in life. a lot of things I learned from interacting with other people, not necessarily what went on in my own home.

        1. Trust me, I know that siblings raised with similar childhoods can grow up to be completely different. One of my sisters, for example, would have her man bring her plate at a social function and then would continue to emasculate him for the rest of the time they're there.

          Still, I don't even necessarily think it's about exposure either. I'm just basing this off my experience, but I learn to do the exact opposite of most of what I'm exposed to. It's really sad to say, but I probably learned my big life lessons on morality, respect, etc from books, TV, and movies.

      2. Sane, you and Reecie are on point. All this man-child talk took me right back to the foothills of West Virginia, so forgive me if I start sounding like I'm 85, lol. You don't HAVE to be raised a certain way to know how to be treated or to treat others well. It helps, though. However, I do feel like this no-dad thing is large enough to cause large scale problems. I've seen it.

        Sane,

        Quit actin' like you don't know how special you are! There's a reason you're the rock in your fam.

        1. It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it. LOL. I feel like I use my sisters as examples here to much, but there's so many of them and they're soooo screwed up, it's hard not to. There's hardly a post that they can't be used in. I really should get to writing that book. I guess I'm too distracted by this post today.

    4. I know we don't see eye to eye on … well almost anything … but … this I will concede.

      If your man does get treatment like that … then I will co-sign that you are deserving of all the chivalrous acts from not just him, but others.

      Fact is … your not the woman I'm talking to. I'm talking to the girl sitting next to you with her full plate who will "let her man know" about some chivalry if he doesn't get her a drink from the bar when she is thirsty.

      To those b***s … this post is for you.

  49. I have a few questions for the proponents of chivalry

    1) If chivalry is just manners and kindness should a man be equally chivalrous to other woman as he is to his SO?

    2) If chivalry is about being noble and honorable what does it say about a man that is chivalrous but lies, cheats, non-supportive etc. Or do chivalrous men not do those things?

    3) If your SO is chivalrous in which way do you show your appreciation in a non-sexual way? Or does he get nothing for laying his $1200 leather over a puddle for you because he is doing his job?

    1. 1) yes. I'm perceptive and I consider a mate based on how he treats strangers in my presence.

      2) he is a chivalrous cheat. they are not mutually exclusive

      3) laying coats over puddles is very medieval, lol. I wouldn't expect that, but it would be nice for him to grab my hand as we walk together slowly as not to splash/ or walk around a puddle.

      1. Barack Obama was raised by a single mother. Bill Clinton's father was a drunk.

        The whole absent father thing as an explaination for everything really doesn't hold water.

        1. I actually responded to Sane by saying the same thing. I don't know if you meant to quote me, because I didn't suggest that absent fathers were the answer to everything going wrong in life–but I do think men (not necessarily biological fathers) do the BEST job at teaching boys how to be men.

    2. @humble one –

      1) chivalry aint manners (kindess, politeness etc…) – u're getting them confused….it's about a code of conduct…it's a word derived from conduct of a knight

      2) if you lie and cheat…it doesnt matter how much you drop…u've gone against the code of honour so aint nothing chivalry about your character…you're just a dog!

      3) i aint even goona bother to answer 3 – but i will say a woman SHOULD NOT HAVE TO SAY THANK U WITH SEX…chivalry or no chivalry

        1. @SBM – my problem with the comment is he highlighted non-sexual…as if say there can be no thank you without sex being involve…that I should automatically throw down and have sex with a guy just cos he did something gallant is mad…

          I will say that if he valued his $1200 jacket more than me aint no way any man would drop it to the ground to let me walk over a puddle…if that did happen, i'd be overwhelmed and saying thanks (with a kiss and a hug) is a given…heck i'd do that with a $50 jacket…but with both there'd be no sex though

          what comes after depends on how much I was moved by his gesture…(after i check that the jacket aint fake)…I could cook or take him out to dinner and I would pay, I could conjure up tickets to his favourite football game…heck I could even pay for our next holiday together…heck next time I could even throw down my jacket so he walks over the puddle…

          people can show gratitude in many ways…this includes recognition, appreciation…or a simply act reciprocating the gesture…showing gratitude for someone going out of their way for me because it in their nature is definitely something i appreciate…

  50. "@Sane: The comments have shown that women are appreciate and respectful of kindness … no one has really addressed the more properly defined version of Chivalry that we are pushing (things your are simple required to do as a man for a woman for no other reason than they are a woman)"

    I still don't think any woman here has implied that any man is REQUIRED to do anything. Most women are pointing out that they realize it's going above and beyond and that's where the appreciation comes in at. Yes, there are SOME women who expect men to do things for them simply because they're women and will actually discount you as a possible partner for it, their loss. And, yes, there are SOME men who expect women to wash their drawers. There are also people of both sexes who realize that this is extra special sh*t and appreciate it as such. So because the last guy didn't appreciate that I brought his dinner (or a beer or whatever) to him while playing video games after he worked a long day, does that mean I say f*** cooking and cleaning?

    This is said taking out the whole financial aspect as part of chivalry, because I don't think it applies at all. The idea that you should pay for some random coworker/friend/acquantaince's meal because they're a women is just crazy, I don't think it has anything to do with chivalry.

    I guess in the end, I'm still gonna "take care" of my man at home because that's who I am, not because of his response/reactions/expectations to it. If at some point I feel I'm being taken for granted (or being a simp in male terms), then I need to reevaluate my relationship. If you don't feel the need to be chivalrous, don't. I'm not gonna judge you for it, and I would discount a man simply for it. I don't see the point in waiting in a car for someone to walk around and open my door anyway. However, I would probably give extra points to a man who feels comfortable enough to do it.

    1. Sane … I really do like you. (the beer moment you just mentioned melted my heart).

      And as a result … I don't think this post was aimed at you.

      I am willing to admit (after getting no work either and discussing this all day with some of the greatest minds to grace the internet … yes … you) I may have just had one too many bad experiences. And too all the women of those bad experiences, the chicken heads and backwards thinking individuals who literally require men to do the kind things we have discussed … this post was for them.

      Let it be well known … SBM's heart grew 3 times today … and he has officially reanalyzed his world-wide "b**** to wifey" ratio.

      But I still think for the majority of cases … eff chivalry and the horse it rode in on.

      1. This is too funny! I'm glad I could contribute to your heart growing three times. I think we're mostly on the same page, if we were to sit down and come up with a concrete list of what constitutes chivalry vs. common courtesy, we might even be 100% on the same page. That's part of the reason why I frequent this site, to be reminded that there are black men out there that are completly different from most of the ones I've had the joy (yes, that's sarcasm) of knowing in my life. It keeps me grounded and steers me away from pre-judgement and bittenness. It keeps me wanting to find the right person to get the beer for. Plus, it's great to realize I'm not the only woman with the same frustrations.

      2. 1. ummmm, can we e-hug it out then? I'll make you a plate of my famous buffalo wangs – and you won't even have to ask, lol.

        2. 230+ comments today, huh? #iseeyou

        3. "b**ch-to-wifey ratio" needs it's own post.

        1. 1. my e-hugs (and real hugs) are bear hugs. The kind that pick you off your feet, squeeze all the breath outta ya … and leave you feeling like oddly aroused.

          2. who knew that people would like to talk about the supposed death of chivalry #LiesSBMTells

          3. I actually keep a small notebook with future post ideas. That is one of several that today has produced. I plan to make it gender neutral though and include the "B* A$$ N*** to good man ratio" too.

  51. I find it funny that this was today's post and my bf did something that made me think of this post.

    We were walking with friends and I was walking ahead of him with some of the group and I just happened to end up on the side of the sidewalk closest to the street. So he says, "Aye Moses! Walk on the right side of my girlfriend!" and the friend obliged. He is so adamant about me not being near a street. I feel awkward walking on that side when he's not around because of that. This reiterates my earlier point. I don't think men should be required to be chivalrous but I appreciate it when they are. I'm quick to the throw out a thank you or smile when a man does something that is traditionally associated with chivalry. My boyfriend is certain reaping the benefits of it! 🙂

  52. Chivalry comes from the French word-Chevalier-meaning "horse." Men during that time used to actually ride on horses to rescue damsels in distress. Well, we have the police for that now.

    As far as what you're talking about, well, with the exception of "having a lady wait until you open the car door for her," I just think it is all common courtesy. If you don't feel moved to do such things for someone whom you're dating, then move on to another woman who will awaken these types of heroic feelings in you. Her accomplishments should have nothing to do with whether or not she should be shown consideration.

    I have actually held a door open for a man! If I used his car, I've actually filled up the gas tank. There are actual trade offs for kindness.

    All things return to their source. Kindness returns to the heart from whence it came, so does treachery. If you don't feel that a woman deserves to be treated well just because she's a human being, then expect the same to return to you.

    Copasetic?

    1. hmmm…i thought chevalier meant horseman or knight in english…and cheval meant horse….but u are right that it is the code of conduct behind the word chevalier that comes into play here

      re: 'All things return to their source. Kindness returns to the heart from whence it came, so does treachery. If you don’t feel that a woman deserves to be treated well just because she’s a human being, then expect the same to return to you.'…i totally co-sign

      1. shubby doo,

        You're right about the meaning of chevalier.

        ****

        "If you don’t feel that a woman deserves to be treated well just because she’s a human being[…]"

        Like shubby I cosign, but the source of the post seems to be that some people think that a woman should be treated well not because she's a *human being*, but because she's a *woman* and accordingly entitled to certain privileges/behavior from men.

        1. @helagramki – u're right about the basis of the post…but SBM targeted independent women for the death of chivary…i'll go back to one of the key things i was saying in the upthread above…

          a key aspect of the chivalrous (code of honour/conduct for knights) is courtly love…defined as ‘the lover accepts the independence of his mistress and tries to make himself worthy of her by acting bravely and honourably (nobly) and by doing whatever deeds she might desire.’…by this definition this trait came about BECAUSE of the independent woman NOT in spite of her!

      2. You're correct. Cheval means horse and chevalier means the men who actually rode the horse. However, the entire regiment (men and horse) was called the "horse" in general. We also get the word calvary, etc… from the same source.

        Thanks for the co-sign.

    2. Its hard to find it in the insane amount of comments that went on today, but we actually broke down "chivalry" into a kindness vs. Chivalry thing.

      Kindness is what you described and both sides are OK with kindness towards women, and people in general.

      Where the "F* Chivalry" chant became relevant again was when you look at chivalry as a continuation of certain components of traditional gender roles (essentially stuff men are required to do because they are men and women are women). The real problem when only the male side of these gender roles (chivalry) is enforced while the reciprocal female portion (catering to a man, acting lady like) is ignored behind a cry of independence.

      So at the core of it all … its an issue of women who use "chivalry" as an excuse to not treat their men well and yet still make outlandish and outdated demands.

      1. @SBM – that kindness vs chivalry isnt quite it either…to be honest i think the use of the term of chivalry in modern times is so far from what it is meant for someone to be the living breeding embodiment of a chevalier…people lived and died by their code of conduct back in the day….it was respected and understood…now it's messed up…people dont know what i means so they use a big word to sound off…there is a lot more to chivalry than opening doors, paying for a woman's meal and paying for plane tickets

        if you are chivalrous…u do it cos that's who you are…based on triats u’ve chosen as your own…not because society it requires it of u (face it the days of noble knights/horsemen are long gone…granted knighthood’s are still given out by the Queen of England here)…

        truth is if you're hanging out with normal women…ladies (be they independent or not)…who recognise these qualities…u will be appreciated

      2. SBM…..I understand what you mean. It feels absolutely horrible to be in a relationship when the other person has taken on the job of "receiver." It's unfair, and it comes from the root of utter selfishness. When a woman walks around thinking that her gender should garner her specific treatment, then she's not only a turnoff to men, she's a turnoff period, and no one enjoys her company. However, I still stand by the fact that showing kindness should not be a gender specific activity.

        As a woman myself, I have been in situations where another woman will enter a room and try her best to establish a "pecking order." There's no damn "pecking order" among women. We only defer to other women if they deserve respect, i.e., the wise, kind grandmother, or the accomplished matron who has done well by her community, etc…. Those are women who receive respect. Age does not garner respect among other women if the older woman is evil and deceitful.

        That's why I mentioned in an earlier post that if a man is with a woman whom he regrets doing acts of chivalry for, then he needs to find a woman who appreciates the opened door, the dinners, and the other acts of kindness. She should also reciprocate on a consistent basis.

        If you're with a woman who does not know how to show appreciation, cut your losses. You are with the wrong woman. Besides, when a woman is in love…real love, not lust…then the most natural thing in the world for her to do is to show the man whom she loves just how much she appreciates his being in her life.

  53. A woman is a human being. We are the only female species on the earth called by that name. We can enumerate a nomenclature of animals and their female nominatives, but you'll only find that female "human beings" are called women.

    Common courtesy should never be gender specific.

  54. While doing a group project in college, I committed a few acts of chivalry and a female within my group was actually shocked and said, "Aren't you a gentleman." I was kinda taken aback by her comment. Things like opening doors, carrying heavy things, and walking on the outside of the sidewalk are all things that I do without a second thought. Her comment made me want to be more chivalrous, because if it wasn't dead already, it's definitely on life support. I don't think it's really a big deal, nor do I think women should have to choose between independence and what I consider good ole' fashion respect. If a woman says she can do those things herself, let her. Just like in any relationship, you have to know who you are dealing with.

  55. If you look up the definition of chivalry it means "courteous behaviour, esp towards women" so unless you weren't raised with good home training I see nothing wrong with being courteous to women and vice versus.

    My parents have been married for 42+ years and the chivalry that my dad displayed left a big impression.

    honestly it sounds like you are 20 something years old and possibly wasn't raised by your father to see the effects of chivalry on his woman (your mother).

    it not only is a good example to other men but it makes your woman feel appreciated and special. if you care about your woman, they you will be courteous. which means you will open her door, if she lights up when you do, that's an added bonus and trust and believe she will repay you in kind…

    what is wrong with that.

    i'm really disappointed with the tone of this post…

    i truly hope that the men who read this dont agree wholeheartedly with this.

    i usually laugh at some of your off colored jokes but this one, i just shake my head in sadness.

    will the real men please stand up!

    1. @ NotisSum1Difrent,

      This post should go straight to the heart of the men who agreed with the wording. Nothing, especially another person's behavior, should ever stop a man from being the person that he is. All he needs to do is take his "wonderfulness" where it will be appreciated.

      1. @ Lip Gloss – I would hope that there aren't men who agree with the original post. Its sad. Disrespectful. Like how other non-black persons think the only good examples of black families are when the Cosby Show was on tv and the Obamas being in the black house.

        I only find the issue of chivalry among the men under 30 quite frankly, but still they need to be taught. This is my generation and while I understand there were many fatherless homes, I know that these men when they were boys carried the groceries for their mom or opened the door for the little old lady in the apartment building. Even if it was because their mother, or gmom or aunty (whomever raised them) told them so – they did it.

        And if men feel the same way and even agree with the original post, these same men who may have a child one day or already have children, who will teach their sons that "if a woman wants to be so darn independent then let her open her only darn door – f**** chivalry son!" – I shudder at the thought.

        This post is almost as sad as one that would discuss how to keep your baby mamas in check. I mean after all they aren't your wife so why they keep expecting respect?

        I'm stepping down and putting my soapbox away.

        If we have to discuss the roles of men and women in every post ("roles" that the bible outlines, "roles" my parents, our grandparents and great grand parents adhered to that motivated them to stay together forever and "roles" that simply afford both men and women respect and love), then maybe this isnt the blog for me. I have to reevaluate my subscription…..

  56. men must learn how to be men and women must learn to be women,chivliry is dead only because women teat men like tricks and men treat women like hos, all the fun is gone out of relationships and sex because there is no respect the rolls intended .we only want the function and money, gthats not the way it was meant to be.its so hard for (us)real ladies out there to get a good man cause he got trained to be a trick from a ho, and vice versa .love is beautiful, our roles(ladies) are beautiful: grace, loveliness,kindness,meekness are missing while big booties are glorified. gentlemen are being killed by thugs chivilry got caught in the crossfire. we women act like we dont need a man but the truth is we were made for each other to compliment and complete, not cheat and compete, women cant be men, be a woman better than that be a lady, chivilry wont be a question, one real lady is worth a thousand ho's(independent and otherwise), and chivilry( men) will get you head.

  57. Bullsh!t I cry…

    I work hard because there is the possibility that I may not have a man to take me away from my independent woman moments (thank you statistics, washington post, and other sources), and I bore easily and work is fun. But to think that because I run things at work (or will) that you pulling out a chair or opening a door somehow makes things even is wrooong.

    Why can't I be a boss at work and come home and let you be the man? Why can't I earn a paycheck, cook dinner, and then let you take the trash out? I get if you're saying that I can't come home and say I ain't doin nothin domestic but you still gotta do everything the man book says you should do. But please don't kill chivalry guys- a lot of girls still really respect the effort.

  58. Good point. If you don't want to be chivalrous, date a feminist. They want to be treated equal to a man. So, no chivalry for feminists. Chivalry only for ladies.

    <blockquote cite="comment-57102">

    So FLYY: femin

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