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The Beauty Complex – One reason why women hate each other

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Average or Exotic?

What’s good everyone,

So Dr J. dropped some food for thought last Tuesday when he wrote about women who do not get along.  I read all the comments and tried to assess if I felt the same way. Now, while I think some women cannot coexist with others from their gender, I do know there’s an inherent hate amongst females for different reasons.  I didn’t know at the time how to articulate my point, but then I had an epiphany I need to goto Tiffanys when I watched the Wale Diary video:

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jfmiKmUlx6Q&feature=player_embedded

If you notice the comments on the video, people (mainly women) are applauding Wale for “having an average chick in the video instead of an exotic one”. This was a direct backlash at Wale’s Pretty Girls video where non-lightskinned women felt all the females displayed were of the same persuasion (light skin, long hair, etc). Watching this situation unfold, I had a few comments:

1) I wonder what shorty thinks about being called “average” – I saw the video, and I think she’s pretty, and to me that’s not average (unless you’re around beautiful women 24/7 and even then…). When I think average, I think of a regular chick not too much beauty, not too much personality, just…average. I don’t know the young women in the video “like that”, but on looks alone, to call her “average” is a bit egregious. Why would women consider her average? Then it dawned on me..

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2) Women associate certain features to be beautiful/exotic – I’ll let Peyso/Young Dos Equis(I’m not typing that log arse username out) tell it regarding societal influence on what people perceive as “beautiful”. Kanye West in the December 2006 issue of Essence Magazine is quoted as saying, “If it wasn’t for race mixing there’d be no video girls. Me and most of our friends like mutts a lot. Yeah, in the hood they call ‘em mutts.”  <– This is a problem. However, I find it funny that women who argue that all shades/forms of beauty aren’t represented in videos, consider a woman who isn’t of the light skin long/curly hair, South American resembling persuasion, average.  You know I’m a computer scientist, so my Modus Ponens logic tells me that you consider these women “above average” or “more beautiful/pretty than the “average”,  which would represent the “normal” woman.

This is a HUGE problem. This is deeper than preferences. This automatic assumption in many cases lead to that initial hate that females harbor towards one another. This is not race specific either. Women of all races would consider a beautiful women outside of their race/nationality/skin tone “exotic”, and more than likely the men of their race would consider them exotic as well.  Is this the reason for that hate? Do women feel threatened by “outsiders” who are coveted by “their men”, and get upset when these ‘exotic” women are glamourized and admired?

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Furthermore, if you consider a woman that looks like you, or who closely resembles women “in your class” average, that exemplifies a lack of self esteem. It shows me that you automatically assume that you are “OK”. You are the underdog. I don’t know about you, but my parents raised me to be extraordinary, not ordinary. I always strive to be better than “average”. I damn near got @ss whoopings if I ever walked into my house with “average” grades which never happened till some college semesters, so I was instilled with a drive to be better.  Some women may state that they don’t think they’re average, but if your instinct compels you to consider women who look like you “average”,  then there’s an embedded sense of mediocrity which is causing you to hate your fellow heroine in the struggle.

Men get roasted constantly for their preferences. We get told society is brainwashing us to believe that certain women are more beautiful than others. My problem arises when these same women are subliminally agreeing with this notion with comments like “I’m glad an average woman is representing in this video”. If you aren’t part of the solution, you’re part of the problem! on another note, if a man isn’t attracted to you, that doesn’ diminish your level of attractiveness or beauty. I know dudes who think certain modelling/famous beauties are “average” to them. You cant control a dude’s tastes. unless you have glaring deficiencies, and good friends to tell you this, you need not worry about preferences. Halle Berry is above average to me and look at how all some of her love stories ended…

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I know, this don’t apply to you because “you look better than that Wale video chick anyway”? You Right…

Twitter:  Streetztalk

Website: Streetztalk.net|TheFoxxFiles.com

Comment(188)

  1. Ya know, I'm kind of getting sick of hearing about all this light-skinned, long-hair mess. Just because some men have a preference doesn't mean its any easier for them to find love. We all go through the same things.

    Also, I think that light-skinned, long-hair, etc. doesn't automatically equal exotic. There are plenty of darker-skinned ladies that look exotic, like Iman.

    1. Thank you! I don't get it. A lot of women are so ungrateful. If everyone wanted to look like a (insert descriptive "exotic" female) then WHAT would be the next best thing? I'm not gonna comment heavy but I'm grateful for how I look & not worried about complementing another female on her looks. I know pretty when I see it and ugly too.. Lord knows God don't like it! Okay #thatisall ^_^

  2. *Standing Ovation*

    You hit the nail on the head with this post. It saddens me that some women have such disdain for one another based on looks alone and that they suffer such esteem issues based on this nonsense.

    I can't tell you how many "I should kick your butt cause you think you cute" and "you think you bad cause you got long hair" [insert shove/mush here] I suffered in my first days/years of school…YES! Six year olds behaving this way, why? because they learned it from their lousy insecure mothers

    This nonsense starts at home and is being made increasingly worse by the media…but the media gives us what we ask for so too much of the blame can't really be put on them. This isht will stop when parents, particularly mothers stop inadvertently making their little girls feel insecure about their hair/skin tone etc.

    I do think the use of the word "average" is a result of not feeling entitled to call themselves pretty. It's sad that in some peoples minds if the media doesn't think so or represent it then it just isn't. Like girls who are a size 6 or 8 think they are fat because the media worships size 0 chicks. They are not considering the source.

    I'm going to venture a guess and say if they got out of their own heads and thought harder they probably mean "not the typical type of pretty" that is normally represented as opposed to average. They say average because that is how they allow other people and the media to make them feel about themselves.

    1. "I’m going to venture a guess and say if they got out of their own heads and thought harder they probably mean “not the typical type of pretty” that is normally represented as opposed to average."

      I cant assume or guess on this since women use that term "average" a lot! I dont ever consider myself average because "my skintone isn't in" and we're awaiting our comeback, lol. I love me for me and everyone else should too. That average feeling is embedded and I think those women are projecting their angst at others when they should project at themselves for being insecure

      1. This is why I go so hard about it starting at home. No one chooses to be insecure and you don't reach adulthood and all of a sudden decide you aren't worthy. That's lifelong conditioning. I can't in good conscious bash women who are insecure, it's sad and it's not their fault how/that they got that way but I do have issue with those who choose to remain in that state – that is their fault. Low self esteem and insecurity is difficult to overcome but not impossible

        The first step in overcoming it is admitting that you have a problem

  3. I agree that the issue is deeper than the preferences that men may or may not have. However, I don't think women are immune to what society deems beautiful. While this of course goes back to self-esteem, even as little girls we are bombarded with images of what is considered beautiful. I mean look at Peccola in the "Bluest Eye." Ok, maybe that is a bit of an extreme example.

    I think if more women said to each other "oh you look nice today" or told a random woman on the street "I really like your hair" it would be part of the solution.As a woman I see nothing wrong with complementing women I don't know..I think it's healthy. Women do hate on each other because of looks, but it is something that women can stop doing with a simple compliment (and less "oh I don't like her because she's cute chit-chat).

    1. Welcome?!?

      I'm with you on complimenting other women. I make it a habit to compliment at least one random woman every day and try to do it more so when I'm at my PT job.

  4. I was just glad that the leading lady in "Diary" wasn't hypersexualized. She was not the greased up, damn near naked yet strutting through the hood carefree, is-ya-mama-half-reindeer woman that you typically see in rap videos (#noshade to the sistas out their w/ donks). She was fully clothed, walking, talking, and acting like a regular person. I feel like I've probably passed her, in that same outfit, coming out of Ben's Chilli Bowl.

    1. "I was just glad that the leading lady in “Diary” wasn’t hypersexualized"

      Believe it or not, as a dude, I appreciated this. It made the video make a lot more sense. If the video featured any other type of girl then I'm not sure it would have been as good

  5. First of all, the girl in the video is quite attractive to me….she looks like an "around the way girl"..maybe, its because she actually has some clothes on that people are saying she's "average"….I don't hate on any women and their beauty…we all posess beauty in one form or another…..and beauty is in the eye of the beholder….

    Light skin, long hair doesn't automatically equal beauty…there are some dark skin sista's out here that I think are absolutely gorgeous..and some light skin women I will see and I think…not attractive….but, I really don't go around judging women and their looks,,I have too much to do…and to many other things to worry about…

    I would like to know what you think about the leading woman in the video? let the men speak on this…..

    1. "Light skin, long hair doesn’t automatically equal beauty…there are some dark skin sista’s out here that I think are absolutely gorgeous."

      THIS! I agree 100% I leave that to the stupid dudes who limit their dating pool, sheeit more chocolate goodness for me ;-)!

      "I would like to know what you think about the leading woman in the video? let the men speak on this….."

      I already said I think she's attractive! I would def holla! I agree on the hypersexualized leading women, although that Drake video? mm-mmm good! lol…

      On another note… Son was buggin! Drake look like the type of dude to belay an order from di yard Mon! Bad Mon fi tell yuh leave Jamaica, yuh say "But I just gotta see her one more time?!" smh…

      I've been to some hoods in JA, I would've been out on the next thing smokin! I dont care how fat shorty ass was… Skype is safer!

      1. Loved that Drake video. Love Love Love.

        I gotta believe that "who is stupid enough to test the top shotta" theme is what draws people to the video….

        girls love that guy that is willing to die for love.

      2. I know some people "hate" on eachother. But i dont know if its just a woman thing. Anyway society tries to force women with images of being a size 2, make up, heels & etc. Men don't get bombarded with these images which is why the hate isnt experience on the male side. Also men dont help when they try to set standards of beauty to Beyonce & etc. I personally dont compare myself to other women & why should I? I think I love the way I am and my personality & my kindness. Men contribute to this problem and focus on women with large breasts, butts & etc instead of looking at a woman for their heart.

        I understand attraction, but thats what gets a lot of people in to sticky situations. So women feed off of the comments men make which doesnt make it right. Personally I dont look at other woman. I dont describe any other woman as beautiful, pretty & etc….those terms are only reserved for me to use for myself…xoxo

    2. she was cute T.

      I don't know why women hate on each other so much. It's a very unattractive trait that some of them have. There are pretty women of all shades, it's just so happens that more often than not, the ones i see are light-skin. Or not even pretty, let's say the "beautiful" ones. But that's just my perception based on the women I come across. I'm light-skinned and I'm never offended when women say they want a man who is "tall, DARK, and handsome"

      1. I love my chocolate skin and on TV, the beauties are, more often than not, of the lighter variety (females)—at least the video "vixens". But why would I want to look like anyone else? When I tan, I turn an exquisite black cherry. I am always complimented on my skin tone and I prefer my men dark too. I find lighter skin less attractive, kind of blah, hum-drum, and feel sorry for those who don't see the beauty in their dark skin. I wasn't raised that way, and neither will my sons/daughters. Just wanted to let you know that just because I love MY tone, doesn't mean I hate yours.

  6. Good Post! You are right, there are women who definitely have the same issues about themselves, when it comes to skin color. I think it's hard when you are constantly bombarded with images of "beauty" and very few of them look like you, it's easy to internalize that foolishness and begin to think that what you are being told is true.

    As for the girl in the video she is gorgeous. Maybe by saying she is "average" people are referring to the fact that she doesn't have some over the top weave on and is not scantily clad (not hating on weave or people's choice of dress). It also could be jealousy coming from some ladies in referring to her as "average." If it's b/c of her skin color, then the degree of self hate some black people have is beyond comprehension.

  7. It boils down to how you were taught. If a little girl is taught that certain looks are beautiful compared to her own looks, then she will have those self-esteem issues. I'm glad my parents always told me I was the prettiest little girl in the world, so I grew up thinking that I was pretty. As a woman, I feel that I'm beautiful. We are all designed to look differently, so the next woman's look might be different than mine, but it don't make her better looking than me nor does it make me not recognize her beauty.

    Start teaching young girls early about their own beauty, then they won't grow up into insecure women.

  8. I'm definitely going to make a more in-depth comment later. I just need to figure out what i'm doing for tomorrow. What I will say is…

    There are several things that I predict will happen today, most importantly being, a light skin chick professing that they have issues too, #seewhatididthere. The other will be some brown skin chick claiming that she's dark skin. The last will be the saltiest dark skin chick claiming that she has no problem pulling men, in fact, they search her out. (She will neglect to tell you that she has a donk the size of Jean Paul Gartier's goatee hair.)

    As it pertains to this exotic look thing, I think that extra regular women hate on them because men are checking for exotic women, not realizing that men are checking for ALL women. Then women will claim they want a dude to appreciate an "around the way" girl, but give me a reason why. And then tell me this, do you looks determine who you are?

    Don't worry, i'll wait.

    1. Do looks determine who you are, no, but looks do determine how you feel about yourself. If light skin and long hair weren't so important then you wouldn't see so many sisters with bad weaves tacked onto their heads and colored contact lenses looking a hot mess but trying to look exotic! (btw, how does one post a pic of themselves on this blog?)

      I actually thought this post was rather deep…didn't know that some still waters ran so deep!

      I think that what I'm trying to say is that it's a bigger struggle trying to be the best ME that I can be, than it is to hold that up against what the masses consider beautiful and/or exotic. Men are going to be attracted to who or what they are attracted to, you cannot change that…just package yourself the best way you know how and keep it moving. You'll be the right target for someone, for sure.

      1. "Do looks determine who you are, no, but looks do determine how you feel about yourself. If light skin and long hair weren’t so important then you wouldn’t see so many sisters with bad weaves tacked onto their heads and colored contact lenses looking a hot mess but trying to look exotic! (btw, how does one post a pic of themselves on this blog?)"

        @Sanen85 will be more than willing to assist you, she runs that dept. around here, but I think you have to go to gravatar.com

        Looks do NOT determine how you feel about yourself. I think what you mean is people who try and go for a certain look. I mean, a person cannot pick how they look. Along the lines of what you just said, I feel a certain way about myself because i'm Black or white. How you feel about yourself is a reflection of your own self esteem. I know plenty of "exotic" chicks who are so upset that they don't know what the hell is in them, but everybody thinks they are a dime.

        Also look at Rosa Acosta, a woman who many find to be so beautiful, just cut all her hair off. Wasn't because she was trying to make a fashion statement, it was because for so many years she was killing herself through anorexia that her hair won't stop falling out and she had to let it all go. As fine as she is, she is trying to find a way to get skinny, to lose all that stuff that men find so beautiful…. I hope you are seeing where i'm going with this.

        Please don't look at someone and think you can judge how they feel about themselves. Some of the prettiest people actually feel SO ugly.

        1. You are citing individual cases although I am sure that many beautiful women have a ton of inner turmoil, but I am also sure that there are more women that have even bigger issues because they don't consider themselves pretty "enough".

          (Once again, bad weaves and colored contact lenses) – why would you make yourself look that way if you weren't trying to meet some standard of beauty that you have perceived in your own mind that you must live up to in order to be noticed? (exotic chicks that are upset because they don't know what is in them) that's pretty funny to me….sorry but it's VERY funny — you make it seem as if they believe they're part alien!

          went to gravitar, i'm sure I'll figure it out. Thank you.

        2. "I was gon kill couple bloggers but they did it to themselves. And they did a good job them girls is talented as hell." – Jay-Z/Dr. J

          What you meant to say is women who attempt to look exotic. You didn't mean women who were just born that way. In that case, then I would say there is a problem. There's simply nothing Amerie can do about being biracial and being born with straight hair and when she works out she gets some of the best legs ever seent.

        3. don't tell me what i meant to say (pet peeve)…just read more carefully next time!

        4. Oh, about Rosa A: I heard she went through it with the eating disorders because of her extensive background in ballet. As someone who studied ballet for 12 years they really (really) mess with your body image. Ballet dancers think that models are fat. And most of them consider eating disorders, laxatives and smoking as regular ole diet aids.

        5. @redlady – then your comment was just wrong. there's nothing that a girl who is born with this predefined "exotic" look can do about it. so therefore, to say that it determines how she feels about herself, makes absolutely no sense and any argument to make it so is unjustifiable.

          or can we just assume that you misspoke?

        6. Yes but i wasn't talking about women who are already born exotic, i was talking about women who are NOT! why would an already exotic looking chic plop a weave on her head and put in colored contacts? I never brought them into the conversation, you did!

        7. and i also argue that looks DO determine how you feel about yourself. people always measure themselves against others, there is always a benchmark, and if a woman is born "exotic" then she will always have other issues (which you cited yourself) and it still determines how she feels about herself….so how am i just WRONG?

          plain women want to look exotic, exotic women want to know why men only want them for their looks, or what their lineage is, bottom line is our looks determine how we feel about ourselves, even if it's just to say "feeling some kinda way".

      2. not sure what light skin has to do with weaves? Do only light-skinned women have long hair where you live? You might want to venture out a bit.

    2. "being, a light skin chick professing that they have issues too, #seewhatididthere."

      No, I don't see what you did there.

      Redlady, I'm sorry I dropped the ball in guiding you to gravatar.com, but it seems Dr. J helped you figure it out. There is a bit of a time difference for me, so I may be tardy for the party, #nevergetsold.

    3. i like this post alot and just have a few comments to make. As a "brown skinned" girl attending a predominantly white community and a school were most of the black people where biracial, I dealt with alot of self-hate I often found myself comparing my beauty to the standards of those around me and of course most were light-skinned. I spent hours when i got home and stood in front of a mirror trying to find ways to improve my self-image and was never satisfied. Now, i'm not gonna say i was ugly, but i was just never satisfied and felt like i never measured up asking myself, why isn't my hair as long as "insert name" or maybe if i was light skined "insert name" would have talked to me. IThis went on for most of my high school and middle school years making the high school experience pure torture. My junior year of high school was really when i just said "eff it" and learned to accept myself after having a random conversation with my grandmother who spoke these great words, " Chile, what you talking about, when i look at you, you are the most beautiful person I've ever seen, you need to stop worrying bout what others doing, and focus on you because at the end of of the day, you know you can only do you." After that and till this day, i stand in the mirror everyday and compliment myself on at least one feature and when i see another girl walking in the street like another commenter said, i give her a compliment even if it's as simple as " your make-up is flawless or you have really preetty eyes." Because through experience I've realized that even the person with the biggest smile in the room has her own insecurities and a compliment goes a long way. And i know commenting is closed for the day but how are standards of beauty measured in today's society? i think what plagues today's society is that a person usual judges someone's looks by comparing them to the next person because if everybody looked the same, how can you tell what beauty is?

  9. I totally agree. This reminds me of that line from the "My Chick Bad" (remix) in which Diamond says "Roll w/ bad bitches and they all look Brazilian". Why do they have to look Brazilian? It seems like everyone wants to be everything but Black. I just wish we'd learn how to love ourselves be proud of our own heritage. It grinds my gears when people try to rep that 1/8 of Native American that is rumored to be in their blood.

    1. “Roll w/ bad bitches and they all look Brazilian”

      hmm. I didn't realize she said that on her verse. and I agree with you.

      and Diamond–you may have some South American remy in your head, but I've seen the pics of her "crew" in ATL. and she's lying. lololol

    2. In Diamons defense.. Brazil has the largest percentage of African decendents outside of Africa… which is part of the reason why they are so bad.

      Plus Brazilians take it in the bu++hole.

      1. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Omg, should I even attempt to engage this crowd? We take it in the bu++hole? COOL.

        As for the largest population of Africans outside Africa…you dead right. My fam traced our roots right to a town and former slave port in Nigeria appropriately called 'escravos' which means 'slaves' in Portuguese. So I am reppin my Nigerian roots too #fistpump

      2. Brazil has the largest percentage of African decendents outside of Africa… which is part of the reason why they are so bad.

        This is true but yet and still when we see pictures or even flixxx of Brazilian women they usually aren't darker skin women like Rojane Fradique or brown skin girls like Ana Bela.

        1. True, which is a shame because the whole North Easter part where I am from is full of beautiful dark skin ladies. But somehow these perceptions of light being 'better' are also very much ingrained in Brazilian society.

    3. RESIDENT BRAZILIAN right hurr lol. And I have to say… I 100% agree with you. I'm sorry, i'll get in the ring for 10 rounds fighting against this whole "Brazilians are this and that by way of looks." I can't get with it. I don't like being sexualized or objectified because of my nationality…it's preposterous. In conversations with people and they may ask "oh so where are you from with a name like Andressa?" I say Brazil…you should see the way peoples looks start to change based on that knowledge. Excuse me, did my appearance just become that much more appealing with that new piece of information? #uneedtogetabrainscan

      1. Exactly. I hate to see any culture sexualized or objectified. I hate when I tell people I'm half Bahamian and they start talking about "them island gals". It's offensive as hell.

        1. Despite your wonky a** motives (and your unwillingness to put up your own pic), thanks for helping the movement.

        2. Streetz…u will have to get at me for a pic. If I post one on here it sure as hell will be an avatar….I don't believe in perpetuating stereotypes………deuces! lol

      2. I'm not going to lie.

        I am guilty…. but is being sexual really that bad of a stereotype?!

        Its not like Fried chicken, or people saying you can't drive.

        1. lol @ people saying you can't drive…

          Well it is a really bad thing when that is a huge part of the reason some takes a higher interest in me. U even said the thing about the 'taking it in the bu++' ok…so how many females out there are going to wear that stereotype with pride? Not this one. You'd be surprised about how much people will take the "this is what I know about Brazilian women" and run with it like it's the gospel truth. Smh. Most people don't know a damn thing about the country or the people.

  10. interesting post. I saw the twitter exchange of juices flowing and I knew you were gonna write on this, twin!

    first thing: my definition of avg is the same as yours: no beauty or style, kinda just there. BUT I think the reason folks were saying she's avg is that she looks NORMAL–not all glammed up like a lot of video girls & celebs tend to look. She looks like your typical around the way girl–that DOESN'T mean she's not pretty/cute.

    second thing: I don't buy into this exotic crap. for one, maybe because I grew up thinking black folks were black folks, period. it wasn't until I went to college and met folks from islands & other places did I start hearing this exotic lingo. and yes, most of them were light with loonnnng flowing hair. is this a result of race mixing–maybe so, maybe no. I think pretty is pretty, average/plain is just that too–and being biracial doesn't automatically make you the latter.

    Just my take. I do know a lot of men that like "exotic" women, meaning not from the US, also. it is what it is. This girl from Virginny doesn't have a problem being exactly what I am.

    1. interesting post. I saw the twitter exchange of juices flowing and I knew you were gonna write on this, twin!

      Dont be talkin bout my juices, I don't want no problems **bbm talk to hand smiley** lol…

      You touched on a great point. "exotic" is defined differently. Its maily a look of a people that are different from yours. Whites thought/think we were exotic, look at the woman they had on display in England centuries ago. Its not just a light skin curly hair thing!

      VA girls are exotic ot me cause yall country!

      Also, why do women want longer hair (weaves etc)? Is it the same as wanting a bigger booty? I also find it funny that some women of other races look at big bootys as a negative, like its a measure of their weight, while others revel in it. Is that society? Upbringing? A reflection of who they associate with?

      I remember one year at my PWI, we came back on campus and 50% of the white woman population came back to school in big cars and DONKS! My inner chicken head went nuts!

      #iLoveCollege

      1. I'm not even gonna attack for the country dig. 😉 I do have a hybrid southern accent, and some country ways–but thats moreso my Carolina roots! LOLOLOL

        I know the definition of exotic, but I've never heard of it used in reference to American black people. but thats okay to me.

        longer hair? bigger booties? yeah I think its cuz we're socialized to think they are more desireable to men. *shrugs*

        1. You dont think American white males see American black females as exotic? Trust me they do

        2. @ Peyso they can think it all they want to. but I've never heard anyone SAY it, is where I'm going…but maybe they think it would be offensive? hmm.

      2. "Whites thought/think we were exotic, look at the woman they had on display in England centuries ago."

        Hottentot Venus! I just learned about her a few months ago. Even back in the 1800s, 2520s were chasing what black women have naturally. Apparently Hottentot's shapely booty inspired the petticoat style of uppercrust white women so they could recreate the hippy, extended shelf-like booty of Hottentot. The way she was treated left me speechless…

        "Also, why do women want longer hair (weaves etc)? Is it the same as wanting a bigger booty? I also find it funny that some women of other races look at big bootys as a negative, like its a measure of their weight, while others revel in it. Is that society? Upbringing? A reflection of who they associate with?"

        Because men like long hair and women do what men like. We've seen it on this blog. Most of you will "accept" shorter hair, but there tends to be a general consensus that your ideal woman will have long hair and a crazy a$$ to waist ratio.

        Men are so obsessed with these two things, I've seen them pass on a girl with a pretty face just to get to the girl with hair and booty and an alligator face. For why?? To me, there aren't just light skinned points, there are also long hair and big booty points. Don't even matter what your face looks like…lol

        1. "Men are so obsessed with these two things, I’ve seen them pass on a girl with a pretty face just to get to the girl with hair and booty and an alligator face. For why?? To me, there aren’t just light skinned points, there are also long hair and big booty points. Don’t even matter what your face looks like…lol"

          I take exception to this comment. Anyone who knows me knows that I may have "types" but I always expand my horizons. Short hair is cool is you rock it. I don't like flattys though, they should be banned.

          I think I found my debut topic for the future supergroup of SBM bloggers

          RCLS and Streetz presents: "Idris and Al B" coming soon…

        2. Lol! I don't begrudge anyone their "type" you just get the side eye when, in pursuit of your "type", you go for the ug-mug over the cute chick.

          I'd still look at you crazy if you picked the unfortunate looking chocolate girl over the cute redbone. But…I rarely see that happen, so…

          I'm scared of flat booties too (I'm straight, but they worry me on men and women). I don't have the biggest booty in the world, but you don't have NO bump back there? None?! What do you sit on??

        3. I think SOME men run to big booty and alligator face b/c they all trying to scrape. If you're only trying to have chex w/ a jawn, why do you care about her face? I care about her hair (more to pull) and her body.

          Now, a wifey jawn might be different

    2. BUT I think the reason folks were saying she’s avg is that she looks NORMAL–not all glammed up like a lot of video girls & celebs tend to look. She looks like your typical around the way girl–that DOESN’T mean she’s not pretty/cute.

      Co-sign… this is exactly what I was about to say. Most "video girls" don't look like video girls in person. I met Melyssa Ford in person and was confused as to what all they hype was about. The room didn't stop when she walked in, she blended in with every other young black girl who was out and about. Make-up, lighting and a soundtrack do wonders for someone's attractiveness, male or female.

      1. This is a proper time to use one of the most misused words in the American English language. This is all semantics. Average has multiple meanings. Average meaning below extraordinary or meaning like the masses. If you believe that most women are pretty (just pretty, not ridiculously amazing) then this girl was average. Some women probably did think she was subpar but that doesnt reflect the opinion of all women

  11. Not all women hate other women. You perpetuate this when you write things like this. Half of the battle is men, men that keep feuds going to keep the divide and… (drum roll) conquer. I love my women friend and vice versa.

    1. Thanks for the comment! I think your analysis of my blog is misguided and off-base. I am not perpetuating my statement, rather I'm stating my opinion based on observation and experience. This is the premise of our site: a man's look into the female and relationship psyche, as well as our own right?!

      This blog was in reaction to the hate I witnessed both "exotic" and "average" women receiving over a period of time. I wanted to analyze the root cause, and provide my own theory on the origin of this hate. I look towards the women who read this blog to help agree or refute my claim, and start a dialogue to clarify my thoughts.

      To say that "Half of the battle is men, men that keep feuds going to keep the divide and… (drum roll) conquer. " which is wrong to me anyway, still diverts the attention from my main point: women on women hate! To be blunt, I never saw a man who had to assist, or "put the battery in the back" of a woman to hate on another woman. Let's address my claims before making blanket allegations on the direction of the blog.

      1. She just is new around these parts and doesn't know that y'all write with the best of intentions (except when you're trying to kill chivalry).

        Christine, welcome. I'm sure if you stick around, it won't be long before you realize that this blog (and the men commenting) will shatter your initial thoughts.

    2. So Inter-Women issues are somehow a male plot to keep women divided in order to conquer you?

      Man … that is one serious conspiracy theory.

  12. I think most of the problem stems from women being inherently emotional, combined with the unfortunate reality that dark-skinned women were often told that their best isn’t good enough. Many dark women aren’t paranoid in their insecurity, because they’ve often had those notions of a light-skinned preference reinforced by several men and media portrayals. Many men love dark skinned women, but I assume the hurt of being told by some men that they prefer lighter skin and straighter hair fuels their diffidence.

    As far as some men wanting a woman that is “exotic”, that doesn’t typically come from a dislike of “average” women. It is more of a fact that it’s different. It is a beauty that is not common. It’s really no different than wanting a beautiful woman in the first place, because beauty is uncommon. It's just simple supply and demand.

    1. "It is more of a fact that it’s different. It is a beauty that is not common. It’s really no different than wanting a beautiful woman in the first place, because beauty is uncommon. It’s just simple supply and demand."

      THIS IS THE TRUTH

  13. Eh. Part of me feels like we're oversimplifying. Streetz, you said earlier that women equate light skin with beauty. I think that (some) men are the ones who really think this way, especially the "groups" of black men whose lives are in the spotlight like musicians and ballers. "Yellow bone passenger", "I want a long hair thick redbone" "I don't like dark buts" come to mind immediately, but it's all over hip hop. Let's not pretend that the messaging isn't there. Or that there aren't plenty of folk who use "pretty" as code word for "light skin/long hair".

    As for the video, it reminded me of back in the day when video models weren't super secksual, weaved out glamazons. Very refreshing – I like the natural look. Which is a big part of why Royce is my favorite Basketball Baby Mama.

    1. Royce is definitely a natural beauty. But I DID like it when they made her over a bit! made her look her age. as someone that looks like a teenager most days, I understand that effort to step it up a notch.

      I would say I like Evelyn's look the best–but its not because she has light skin. I just think she had a mean shoe game and dresses pretty fly… are you on twitter, Miss Teflon?

      1. *hangs head*

        No. I just got on facebook like a year and half ago. I like to keep it "behind the times", lol.

        1. I just asked because we go IN about basketball wives on Sundays on twitter. I wanted to add you to the stream of commentary. lol

    2. T double,

      "Streetz, you said earlier that women equate light skin with beauty. I think that (some) men are the ones who really think this way, especially the “groups” of black men whose lives are in the spotlight like musicians and ballers."

      I agree to an extent. I think that at some point we cant use imagery and society as an excuse all the time! We gotta look at ourselves. Its the same argumetns as blacks always talkin bout "the man" keepin them down in my opinion. Imagery is a huge problem, but what about overcoming that?

      1. I agree to an extent. I think that at some point we cant use imagery and society as an excuse all the time! We gotta look at ourselves. Its the same argumetns as blacks always talkin bout “the man” keepin them down in my opinion. Imagery is a huge problem, but what about overcoming that?

        You are so right but it goes even beyond looking at yourself to overcome it. People, Mothers, need to start with their little girls – and not just telling them that they are beautiful but BELIEVING it themselves.

        And, don't attempt to make them feel beautiful by cutting down other women – no sense telling your DS baby that LS bishes ain't isht – counterproductive!

        And that means paying attention to your own behavior towards other women. Kids pick up on their mothers/aunts/grandmothers jealousy and feelings of inferiority to other women- even when you don't speak on it.

        And stop doing stupid isht like putting a** length extensions/ponytails in your 3-year olds hair or tellin them to stay out the sun cause they don't need to be no darker…just to name a few

        If mothers/families would just do better, imagery, society and even men's preferences would have very little impact on most women.

    3. "I think that (some) men are the ones who really think this way, especially the “groups” of black men whose lives are in the spotlight like musicians and ballers"

      You ever thought about why this is? If you're famous, you're probably around only other famous people. I think that's a very reasonable assumption. There are way more (semi)famous light skinned jawns than dark skinned jawns. This increases the likelihood of you getting with a light skinned jernt

      1. You know what? And I've been meaning to ask you this for a while….please provide me with definitions for:

        Jawn

        Bol

        Jernt (jernt?!?)

        Da hell?

        1. Jawn – pronoun – used to refer to a female person, or any place or thing.

          {New English – Philadelphia}

          e.g. I jumped in my jawn to go pick up my jawn and we went to the jawn to eat.

          Often seen as derogatory b/c it places women on the same level as inanimate objects. Women in Philly usually dont have a problem with the word.

          Bol – pronoun – used to refer to a male person

          {New English – Philadelphia}

          e.g. My young bol from the mentoring program told me that he was chased home by some nutty bols.

          Jernt – pronoun – used to refer to a female person, or any place or thing.

          {New English – Washington DC} Similar to jawn.

          e.g. I met the bad eritean jernt at the jernt up on Georgia Ave.

  14. Is all of this really about the definition of exotic vs average and what have you or do women just hate on each other because they're insecure?

    Aren't the women who are saying they're glad Wale put an "average" girl in his video really just glad he didn't pick a woman who made them feel bad about themselves?

      1. the Why Remix by Jadakiss. A great remix. Completely forgotten about on the list of all time great remixes.

        Also the first song that a rapper ever mentions Barrack Obama! Shout out to Common, give the innovator credit and go see his new movie.

    1. "Is all of this really about the definition of exotic vs average and what have you or do women just hate on each other because they’re insecure?

      Aren’t the women who are saying they’re glad Wale put an “average” girl in his video really just glad he didn’t pick a woman who made them feel bad about themselves?"

      I think this issue is more complex than that. Lets face it, television and the entertainment industry play a major role in setting the standards for what is considered beautiful. If all a girl sees on tv and in music videos are women who look nothin like her and these women are the standard for beauty then what is she suppose to deduce about herseIf? So when someone says " I'm glad Wale used an average woman in his video" (meaning they are glad he used someone who looks similar to them), it not about knocking down other women. It is about having their beauty recognized and in turn broadening the standards of what is considered beautiful.

  15. I agree that a lot of this starts at home. I come from a family of all different shades and while half of us look like we just stepped foot out of Colombia the other half fill out all colors of the spectrum. While I do have some family members stuck on colorism for the most part I was taught to embrace my color, my face, and my body.

    This feeling also comes from our male peers who idolize women like Paula Patton (not that she's not bad) and ignore women like Gabrielle Union. I understand preferences are preferences but when media and men are telling you that they have an overwhelming preference for someone that isn't you- well let's just say that self-esteem is not always about self.

    Personally, I don't find that exotic=pretty, point blank- pretty=pretty.

    1. "This feeling also comes from our male peers who idolize women like Paula Patton (not that she’s not bad) and ignore women like Gabrielle Union"

      i said this exact thing on twitter last week (i love gabby by the way) and dr.j got heated. lol

      1. In accordance with this post and DrJ's prediction above about brown-skins claiming to be dark-skinnned, to paraphrase Chappelle, maybe we need to decide how light (or brown or dark) light- (or brown- or dark-)skinned really is.

        1. Well I like to consider myself darkskin but my friends let me know daily that I'm only dark skin to white people 🙁

  16. While I think you have extremely valid points, I think a lack of being able to correctly express ourselves in this day and age also contributes to your misunderstanding of women's applause for the 'Diary' lead.

    Por ejemplo, if I was having a discussion about beauty, I may say casually "The reason I like Beyonce so much is because she's regular cute"… *record scratch* What? Well, to me that says, if I'm walking down the street in Houston, and saw Bey, my head would most certainly turn because I think she's gorgeous, beyond belief, but I also could see myself walking down the street and in fact SEEING Beyonce. She's not Hollywood cute. She doesn't appear plastic, to me. Fake teeth, body parts, etc. Regardless of weather or not she actually HAS those things, she has a natural looking appeal to me.

    The Wale video lead has an amazing facial structure. Lips that grab your attention, and amazingly almond eyes. To me, she looks like she's a perfect example of that black girl you sat across from in English Lit freshman year…you know…the one you failed at least 3 quizzes while imagining you were getting your DMX on with her vaseline greased body screaming "I DONT KNOW NO TIANA"… yea, that one. Extremely pretty, extremely eye catching, but certainly not flown in, multiracial, wavy lightskinned, if you will.

    Does this mean I hate myself? I don't think so. I think it means that I enjoy seeing someone that I could have walked past on the street, or sat next to in English Lit playing the lead in a video or married to Jay-Z.

    For the record, I'm not at all discounting your post. I think that the Euro/Latina/lightbrightdamnnearwhite standard certainly affects our society. I also think as a people, blacks don't value what they've got as 'beautiful' as they should. But I also think you shouldn't discount the fact that sometimes, beauty standards are based on product. 36-24-48 injection booty, and silicone implant frames, white giant capped teeth, new noses, lace fronts, hair falls, and bleach dye jobs, airbrushed complexions…etc.

    1. I hear you. I think the fakeness etc is to be analyzed as well. What a woman does to augment their body shouldn't affect the next, unless they feel that have to keep up with the Joneses. Then we have to look at why they feel they have to keep up and the loop begins again.

      I dont care if a dude uses steroids to look super diesel. Im content with my body and would rather use natural resources to achieve the body I desire. I won't succumb to using PEDs. Some will, but that won't be me. I don't feel less handsome, I just work to acheive the body I want, while appreciating the gains I've made

  17. dude you know when you posted your response on twitter i 100% co-signed. as far as wale and the women who complained about pretty girls and applauded diary, if i were him i wouldn't have tried to appease them. since people wanted to complain about the girls in pretty girls, i would have had an amazonian chick from switzerland in my next video and said take that, take that (no puffy).

    as far as calling the woman in the diary video "average" i think that's a poor choice of words. when i first saw the video i thought she was pretty. based off looks alone i would holla. *shrug* she didn't have her hair done or a lot of make up but i think that was done on purpose.

    in this situation it's like damned if you do or damned if you don't. if these women say that that woman is "average" then if you're not exotic then you're average. that doesn't add up to me. why she just be different from the normal.

    lastly, why the hell did wale get so much flack anyway? no one says anything to plies when he has all types of "exotic" women in his video. i guess people just expect that from him and not wale. o_0 hypocrisy at its best. complain and bash wale but shake your a** to plies the very next song. smh

    1. as far as calling the woman in the diary video “average” i think that’s a poor choice of words.

      ^^

      I cosign, but i think theres a lot of hidden meaning behind that A-word….

      thanks for the props too… that twitter convo got me HEATED!

    2. Plies doesnt catch flack because he is Plies. Wale sort of packaged himself a bit dfferent. So he catches flack for that

  18. To me, pretty is pretty is pretty. White, black, Latina, etc. Different features make different women pretty.

    Because of the media, it gets dicey for women to appreciate their own level of attractiveness and even harder for men to get past all of those images to determine what's attractive to them as men.

    I'm not color struck by any means, but a lot of people in our community are. We've all seen the average lightskinned/long haired chick with bad skin and buck teeth get play over her ebony colored friend with high cheek bones and beautiful smile. While beauty is subjective, I do have a "are you serious?" moment when I see this.

    But, I also think beauty confidence starts with your family and other women. I love it when another lady gives me a compliment. It almost means more coming from a woman, cause I know (most times) she's not trying to get at me like a man is.

    And I'm constantly giving women compliments. "I love your fro today." "Your skin is gorgeous." "Your eyes are the prettiest color blue." Yes, I give props to white girls, too. If you pretty, you pretty.

    And I think the Wale chick is average. Average meaning that she's could be my homegirl. Not all fussed over and hypersexualized. Girl next door type quality.

  19. Morning All…

    We all know beauty is subjective and that what's good for one is passed up by another. People will always find ways to classify/judge each other. If we all looked exactly alike (apart from dealing with constant identity theft) we would seek out some way to differentiate ourselves and classify ourselves. Possibly using economic status or IQ. I think the real issue is understanding exactly why as humans we need to classify or have some type of social hierarchy in life. We consistently pass up the opportunity to let people just be. Could it be we need to classify to have a sense of order in our lives? Is it a type of control? IDK. But it involves much more than lack of self-esteem (although it has a lot to do with it).

    Great post Grain!

    1. I think as humans we classify by nature. Don't know WHY persay. I think it is preference based, but how the preferences are developed is a question. I just think people need to think deeper, you know?

      Gotta love FA00!

      THank u kindly!

    2. Humans classify because it is a biological necessity. W/o classificiation, no living creature would survive. As our cultures, societies and living environments become more complex the basis of our classifications become further involved

  20. I was one of the women who HATED the Pretty Girls video… for many reasons. First if you're gonna do a song that's supposed to be putting the spotlight on go-go and bringing it to the mainstream, not having the band you sampled in the video to me is ridiculous… doing a video for a go-go song in LA… ridiculous… blaming all the lightskinded chicks on the casting call and claiming you had no control whatsoever of the final creative project… I'M NOT BUYING IT!

    To address MadScientist's question of why are people mad at Wale and not Plies because Plies' song isn't called "Pretty Girls". Also I expected more from Wale than I do Plies. I was SO disappointed by the video. I was expecting "video girls" to be in the video but silly me I was expecting something different from the typical, like I dunno… maybe a celebration of Pretty Girls of all hues and ethnicities. Oh and please don't expect me to the be appeased by the lil bit of diversity that creeps in about 2mins and 30seconds into the video. Sorry, I missed that part after being blinded why the bright white and lightness of the opening montage of the nearly white entourage. Silly me, I expected to see girls that look like the women I see everyday on the streets of DC since that is what he talks about in part of the song, not the 10 chicks who showed up for your lazy, last-minute model call in LA.

    It really just kinda killed the song for me personally…

    Have you seen the video for

    My Sweetie… why couldn't he rep for DC like he repped for Naija? I LOVE this video and hyped it as much as I dissed Pretty Girls.

    1. 1st off: If you didn't buy a copy of the album, don't call out the artist. YEAH I SAID IT!

      Pretty Girls is my fav song on the album. And I just re-read the lyrics. Nothing on there is talking about girls of all hues are pretty. Nothing. I didn't like the video either, and it should have been repping the DC culture more. But you made your own video in your head, than you got made at him for not making it.

      And Plies is always going to exist if you give him a pass, but hold ninja's like Wale to some over the top standard that he doesn't even agree with. Meet Wale two times… that nigga loves hoes. Take my word for it. He doesn't care about your masters or what you do for a living.. he wants hoes.

      1. Let it be known that Plies is the one with the college degree not Wale. Take that for what its worth lol jk

        1. this guy Plies said "Lyrics are gay. Why would you want to pay attention to another man's words."

          …………

          Women ruined hip hop. We should have never gave y'all purchasing power.

        2. I'm reading these comments, but just to respond to you Peyso…

          Plies has an associate's degree from a community college in Central Florida. I don't know about you, but many goons get those by being in school for about 6 years as a contigency of living at hom with their mom's. You don't try hard, you don't really have to be smart, you just have to show up and not fail. Don't give him too much credit or take away street cred over that. Now if it was from the U, then i'd be like Plies can go sit his a*s down.

        3. @Peyso I heard the same from folks down that way. also that his father used to be on the City Council wherever he comes from–Ft. Myers I believe…

      2. 1st off: If you didn’t buy a copy of the album, don’t call out the artist. YEAH I SAID IT!

        I couldn't agree more, which is another reason why I expect more out of Wale than Plies because I invested in Wale, not Plies. I expect more from Wale on the whole color thing not because I perceive him to be more educated, but I expect more out of a man who's been vocal about his issues w/ his on skin color and the struggles of being a dark skin boy.

        In the song he says he's an equal opportunity smasher "Asian, Black, Caucasian, I'm blazin'". And when you talk about being on your "DC *hit" and talk about "sunshine in the air, girls are everywhere". I dunno the last time you were out walking in DC on a sunny day, but uh… it don't look nothin' like the Pretty Girls video.

        PS… I don't have any beef w/ Plies and I'm not one of those chicks from Spelman that were up in arms over Tip Drill… Like Joan Morgan said I'm a "post-Civil Rights, post-feminist, post-soul child of hip-hop" and that comes with some big contradictions, like b*tching about Wale and shaking my a** to Plies. #kanyeshrug

        1. #cosign Especially in SE. Nothing but stretch marks, bad weaves and dudes in skinny jeans…. >:0[

    2. I only saw the video once, but that's exactly what I mean: for too many folks pretty just means light. And the visuals just reinforce the stereotype. Now we got some straight mud ducks thinking they're God's Gift (no Nas) because they passed the paper bag test. And humble pie sistas too caught up in their dark skin to realize they're actually quite gawgeous.

    3. great comments! and yes that My Sweetie vid goes so hard!

      but a lot of folks I know from the DC area dont' like Wale cuz they feel he's trying to capitalize off of go go without giving the artists the proper shine.

      1. @Teflon Temptress – You've always known go-go and it's always been very well known to America, they just don't want to admit it. E.U. – Doing the Butt (Holla at Andressa) was probably the first well known track, a lot of people say they don't remember it, but then you are now lying if you ever make a comment about School Daze because its the 4th best part of the movie. Jill Scott, "It's Love" in the early 2000s, that was a go-go band in the background. And Amerie, "One Thing." in the mid 2000s was go-go. Chris Breezy had a track on his second album that was go-go too. Even though he can go head with that Tappahanock talk.

        @Reecie – Ima agree and disagree with you. People are mad about Wale for the same reason they would have always been mad with anyone, because DC has waited so long to get put on they looking for handouts. Wale is close with UCB, that's it. And go-go bands don't really get along like that. They have their own fans and people only support who they bang with on account of where they from. I find it odd, that Wale really stay out Hyattsville, which is sort of like uptown so it makes sense he like UCB. If he was out like the southside then you would have seen Back, JY or TCB. It makes sense why people upset but they gotta just keep it real.

        1. You know your girl won a Doin' Da Butt contest in the 8th grade, lol. I think I placed 2nd in the MC Hammer typewriter dance contest too. Yeah I can definitely feel you on the go-go outreach. But I had the shock of my life when I left the DMV and people were like, "Go-go? Isn't that with the white boots and stuff?" lol, I thought I'd fallen down the rabbit hole.

        2. @ Dr. J – Don't forget Salt N' Pepa "Shake Your Thang"… some people may be too young to remember that one but it featured EU had "a go-go swing". It was a Top 10 R&B Hit AND was nominated for a Grammy.

        3. yep Ms Cherry! Salt N Pepa–as well as Kid N Play. Rollin With Kid N Play had a go go beat too! I still bump athose tracks!

    4. I always enjoy reading your comments Ms. Cherry….but, I don't know why you expect any more from Wale' than you would any other rap artist..I know you said he has issues with his dark skin…I mean, for real, he's not even that dark skin..and he is definitely not as dark as Akon… besides dark skin brothas are much loved and sought after..I don't see anybody checkin' for El Debarge types anymore….if he in fact said that or thinks that..it sounds like BS to me….anybody in this rap game I expect them to do what they do…the videos are all the same..I do appreciate the direction his DIARY video went in but I don't expect him to continue that trend…

  21. My theory on all of this is a bit off the wall so bear with me.

    The self esteem/image issues that many women of color (let's be honest all women feel it but none like black women) deal with is of little fault of the heterosexual black male. There is an adage that may be overused on these here internets. It reads along the lines of "Judge a man by his actions and not his words". If this is to be taken as a truth, empirical evidence leads us to believe that a women should feel that all types of women are beautiful. I see women as pale as powder and as dark as eggplant in relationships. I see women as big as precious and as small as ashley olsen in relationships. Men arent turning down the vagstache b/c your hair aint long. I've seen men who swore they only dated light skin women end up w/ a dark skinned one. So this means to me at least, that media/fashion has a larger effect than men do. I'd argue that the fashion industry is a larger determinant of how ppl feel. (See A Belle In BK's entry today). Who controls fashion? Homosexual men. I dont think its a conspiracy, I just think that it happened to happen this way and they like seeing really skinny, masculine women OR over sexuallized HYPER feminine "fierce" women. But I could be wrong

    1. PEYSO LOGIC! Aint nothing wrong with that!

      Never thought of it that way, but now that you mentioned it. When people see a sassy phat girl, or a big butt ugly face girl that thinks TOO highly of herself, they blame men b/c we sleep with such sea creatures when drunk.

      Looks like we should be praised.. Not tormented.

      1. Women dont seem to understand how men can be sexually attracted to unattractive women. I find it quite hypocritical

  22. random music addition from Reecie:

    the Pretty Girls remix with Chris Brown & Loso goes SO MUCH harder than the original.

    I hope he makes a vid for that. and maybe he can redeem himself…or not. Loso and Breezy only likes the light joints too (I kid)

    1. "I drank so much free bubbly that I

      Let one chick suck me off and she caught a DWI"

      Demeaning? Very much so. Witty? Very much so

        1. 🙂

          na cause then if they actually act out the demeaning words in said video, we'd be offended by that…but only if they look like us…

  23. On the BB, so I will keep this brief.

    1. I agree with the post. Society has affected men and women exactly the same when it comes to standards of beauty. The difference is how these issues manifest themselves in each person, and that indivdual expresses those issues. And because our country was founded on the basis of patriarchy and sexism, whatever a man seems to outwardly hate, a woman will inwardly hate, even if the object of her hate is herself. I don't blame some black men for their socalled preferences because I know we are all screwed up.

    2. What makes a chick "exotic"? I've been told that I look african or jamaican. Is that exotic or does exotic not include Africa and brown skin? Whenever I hear someone use the term exotic, they are usually talking about a woman who doesn't look black, or whose African features are more muted. I find this to be highly problematic. Indian women don't look exotic, they look Indian. The same can be said about all ethnicities of women. Its not exotic… Americans are just ignorant about other cultures in the world.

    3. Zoe is beautiful, and so is the lady in the video. And so are the ladies commenting on today's post. 🙂

  24. Damn…..

    96 Comments and I am just getting my own 5cents.

    Look. Exotic is a very specific term. The look goes toward women who have different features that are not deem to typically be possed together.

    Dark skin and freckles.

    Big lips and a small nose.

    Dark hair and light eyes.

    and yes Straight hair and darker skin.

    Not everyone is suppose to be good looking. In fact, I believe we pick features that a rare and hard to find and hold them up as beautiful. So only a small percentage of us have this exotic look. That beautiful Tan carmel skin that reflects.. its hard to make that genetically. Too much darker in your family, you come out like fantasia. Too much 2520 you come out like Drake. You have to be lucky to look like Nia Long.

    1. I disagree and I agree. I disagree and agree with N.I.A.

      I disagree with you because it doesnt take into consideration geographical and cultural differences. Did the white boys on my football ask me to hook them up with a black girl b/c black girls were exotic? Yes. (They werent talking about part white girls, they wanted an average black girl. And yes I said average b/c a) i actually do believe that most black women are pretty increasing the average and b) they wanted girls who were "black" and had traits that were "black". Meaning that most girls had them. Many times people use average when they really want to use mode) Do the bols in Brazil think that the jawns there are exotic? Nah. Do Eritean bols think Eritean jawns are exotic? Nah. If you see alot of it, it just cant be exotic. We all say we like to go on vacations in exotic places but that place is no longer exotic after a week there.

      I do agree with you about how we construct beauty. Anything of value is constructed in a way that everyone cant have it. That's how it has been through history. Money is based on the principle that not everyone can have it. If everyone has it, then you have inflation. Education is the same way. If everyone has an education then it becomes less valuable so now you need to go get a masters. Beauty is no different. If everyone is beautiful, what makes you any different? I think that this fact is dangerous.

      1. Oh, I for sure feel you Peyso (II), the traits that I named are not universally considered exotic. And are limited to my perspective.

        Other cultures would have their own considerations for "hey. Never seen that combination before" features.

        I don't know if I would say the average girl was pretty, but I would say I am reasonably attracted to the average girl aka I could get it up.

  25. Well with the Pretty Grils vs Diary….

    We have to take it back to the lyrical content. What he's trying to say in diary is directed to the typical black woman. So its only right he threw in a relatable black girl, who looks like she could be anyone of us in anyone of our neighborhoods, who is facing the same issue as a lot of us have with men.

    Pretty girls was just probably his definition and or industry standard of beauty. But I did expect a montage of ALL kinds of women with that video.

    As for the word average, etc….I see your point. We do have to look at how we view ourselves if the one we identify with is the one we label average (although I don't think they meant in bad, just a poor word choice. I prefer 'relatable' ).

    Ya know as a truly dark skinned girl (west african peoples and south floridian sun)…I've had more than a fair share of issues with it, but I've learned to get over it. My skin colors not changing any time soon and I'm sure theres someone out there for everyone. This attitude goes for all my physical traits that are unchangeable.

    I make it a point to see beauty in all shades of women…SERIOUSLY I literally do every time I see a woman. lol

  26. Touchy subject, always gets the conversation started, deserves more discussion than a post but great post. Feeling the Wale video……..funny how he has old girl's man cheating on her with a light skinned long haired chick. Good track, one of my favorites on the album…….shouts to Marsha Ambrosious on the hook.

  27. First I just wanna shout out all the brown skinned people. I feel like we’re often left out in this whole light/dark war discussion.

    Secondly, I can’t tell you all how many times I’ve to tell a homey “Son, she’s not cute, she’s just light skinned. If she had the exact same face but darker skin, you wouldn’t be feeling her.” When you put it that way – people’s opinions change.

    Throughout history, and not just American history, in some regions, darker people have often been seen as ‘less beautiful’ or of a different class than fairer skinned people.

    As far as black folk in America are concerned, our perception of what is and isn’t beautiful, like many of our other perceptions, is heavily influenced by the 400 years we spent in bondage here in this country. I don’t need to go into further detail for you, as you all seem to be educated. What I will say is this, as with other areas of culture, we need to heal. The first step in healing is acknowledging there’s a problem. We must acknowledge that our “preference” for lighter skinned, longer hair having women is not really our true preference. It’s our conditioned preference (even my conditioning is conditioned). We have to acknowledge that and work on ourselves – we have to make a conscious effort to change our world view. We do this first by expanding our knowledge base – learn our history – our true history – and I don’t mean all that Afro-Centric hogwash that’s out there, I mean, what really happened. We do this by traveling seeing other parts of the world and how they interact. Most of all we do it by being open minded, by opening ourselves up to seeing the world in a different way. Lastly we teach our kids something different. We don’t go out and get them a perm when they’re 3 and 4 years old. We don’t reinforce ugly stereotypes. We give them a chance to make their own choices about what is and isn’t beautiful. I guess I’m saying that we have to be critical of everything. Instead of just accepting the idea that we think something is beautiful or attractive, start asking ourselves why we think that’s attractive. If we ask ourselves why we think certain things instead of just accepting them – our perception will start to change.

    As far as women and how they compare themselves to one another and their own self-image – 90% of it is dictated by men. Whatever men are into is what’s popular. This is from shapeliness to complexion to hair style. It sucks that it’s this way but it is what it is.

    What I do find to be perplexing is the fact that we, as educated, conscious people, still take our cues on what is and isn’t beautiful from people who entertain other people for a living. Why does Wale’s or any other entertainers opinion of what a “Pretty Girl” is have to be in any way definitive. That’s why I’m happy that Michele Obama has become such a arbiter of style and example of beauty for our sisters – (#sidebar – does anyone else follow her look-book on nymag.com?).

    I guess that’s all I have to say for now.

    1. "As far as black folk in America are concerned, our perception of what is and isn’t beautiful, like many of our other perceptions, is heavily influenced by the 400 years we spent in bondage here in this country. I don’t need to go into further detail for you, as you all seem to be educated. What I will say is this, as with other areas of culture, we need to heal. The first step in healing is acknowledging there’s a problem. We must acknowledge that our “preference” for lighter skinned, longer hair having women is not really our true preference. It’s our conditioned preference (even my conditioning is conditioned). We have to acknowledge that and work on ourselves – we have to make a conscious effort to change our world view. We do this first by expanding our knowledge base – learn our history – our true history – and I don’t mean all that Afro-Centric hogwash that’s out there, I mean, what really happened. We do this by traveling seeing other parts of the world and how they interact. Most of all we do it by being open minded, by opening ourselves up to seeing the world in a different way. Lastly we teach our kids something different. We don’t go out and get them a perm when they’re 3 and 4 years old. We don’t reinforce ugly stereotypes. We give them a chance to make their own choices about what is and isn’t beautiful. I guess I’m saying that we have to be critical of everything. Instead of just accepting the idea that we think something is beautiful or attractive, start asking ourselves why we think that’s attractive. If we ask ourselves why we think certain things instead of just accepting them – our perception will start to change."

      TRUTH!!!

      However, what you're implicitly saying is that it is not ok to have a preference for light skinned women. You wrote "We must acknowledge that our “preference” for lighter skinned, longer hair having women is not really our true preference." If we implemented your ideas (which I think many are really good ideas), wouldnt that create the exact reverse of the debate we're having now? Meaning dark skinned points and light skinned jawns feeling bad about themselves? Just food for thought…

      1. Nah, I think, if we all took the time to figure out what our true preferences are, some of us would still prefer light skinned, long hair having women, some would prefer darker women, some would prefer big girls, some would prefer skinny girls… etc… etc… etc. When I say our preference for lighter skin is not our own, I mean to say, we don't know what our true preference is. Maybe it's the same… but maybe it's not.

    2. I find it intriguing that you think just because you don't think the light-skinned girl was actually cute..your homey should agree with you. Why couldn't it be just a matter of his idea of cute versus your idea of cute….agree to disagree.

      Don't even get me started on brown skin vs dark skin..I can't tell you how many times I was corrected for referring to someone as brown skin only to be corrected or told..no he/she is light skin or dark skin…who cares..lol…cuz, when I see your pic up on the avatar..that reads to me dark skin..does that matter? Would you then come back and say no I'm brown skin? sigh…that is a whole other issue….I get called high yellow, red and some more..I could care less…if someone says you are high yellow..I don't come back with no I am red….I am fair-skinned pure and simple. I don't care….I even get called white..lol…this subject is deep.

      1. @QueenT – sometimes, she's just not cute at all. I'll give you an example – Soledad O'Brien. She was hosting an event my frat brothers were going to. The talk amongst the brotherhood eventually got to how "bad" or "fine" she was. I was like yo…Soledad is very much "ok" looking. If she were dark skinned, you'd just be happy she was there, there wouldn't be all this talk about her beeing "bad".

        To your brown skin vs. dark skin point, I think we all have our own defintions that we use to describe – so long as we don't consider any of terms to describe complexion as terms to define beauty – it doesn't really matter. For me, darkskin begins somewhere around Jamie Fox and ends at someone like Seal. Brown skin begins at like Gabrielle Union and goes all the way to like Beyonce (unless she's on the cover of a wh*te magazine – then she's somehow light skinned). Light skin begins at say Boris Kodjoe and goes all the way to Soledad O'Brien. After Soledad – you're just wh*te. I'm being facetious. Point is, color has nothing to do with beauty.

        1. I feel you…beauty should definitely not be based around color..but, we have a long way to go on that front….

    3. @Most – "i guess, this is my dissertation, homie this ish is basic, welcome to graduation." – Kanye West

      @Peyso – NOT ONLY did this guy write a dissertation but you cited it by copy and pasting it again.

      You brothers belong in the pulpit.

    4. LOL @ "First I just wanna shout out all the brown skinned people. **waves** I feel like we’re often left out in this whole light/dark war discussion." Ikr!But I do think I'm kinda likin the idea of bein left outta this particular debate.

      My daughter, who is LS, once told me I was LS, I asked how did she figure that and she said "well you're not DS" o_O … Oooohhhhh, so I'm LS by default? LMAO! I think she thought it was a compliment, even with the best hometraining society still gets in their heads…

  28. Too many comments to reply to all the ones I'm really feeling but I did think these two were profound…

    "And because our country was founded on the basis of patriarchy and sexism, whatever a man seems to outwardly hate, a woman will inwardly hate, even if the object of her hate is herself." <——- NIA

    I’m a “post-Civil Rights, post-feminist, post-soul child of hip-hop” and that comes with some big contradictions, like b*tching about Wale and shaking my a** to Plies. #kanyeshrug <———– MsCherry every child of hip-hop suffers from their own, similar Dubious-sian Duality…

  29. I'm not sure how to respond to this post because I have so many thoughts and not enough time. Do I date internationally? Yes. Do I date interracially? Yes. Do I at any point say, I am going to date internationally or interracially? No.

    I think all women are beautiful. It's not about race to me, it's not about skin color, it's not about the length of their hair, I think all women are beautiful, so it's hard for me to say who's exotic and who's not. I told my friend offline this morning, "It all comes down to low self esteem. These chicks are mad because they was in the club and some dude was checking for the light skin, or mixed chick, or latina chick, instead of their tired a*s. Not realizing that plenty of ugly women pull men everyday by just knowing how to carry themselves and appreciate their own damn selves."

    I want you all to go back and look at the Frontin video. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iDEoYd5UJDA) You bout to see something that's going to eff all y'all up. The main chick in the video is the dark skin one, but there's this exotic light skin mixed chick in the joint too, but it look like she done sweated out her hair. That girl is? Now you all fed. Just to let you know from the mind of a man, when that video came out wasn't nobody thinking about that light skin slim. (I was though.)

    Again, it's hard for me to comment because i've never been one to debate on this topic. Do I have a type? Yes, I do. As my friend said it best, "Jay if you didn't have a type i'm not sure there would be enough hours in the day for you chasing [garden tools]." I think having a type speaks to discipline and focus. (OJ Mayo throw the ball off the court.)

    1. The light skin chick in the frontin video is Laurn London AKA "WeezyBabyMama#2080. She looks good in Frontin but looked way better in ATL.

      The darker skinned jawn (thanks Peyso) is georgous.

      But, more to the point – Pharrell made her the lead in the video specifically because he caught flack for not having dark skinned sisters in his previous jawns. #SeeWhatIDidThere

      He was in a similar situation as Wale.

      As for my dissertations – it's light work. I give SBM 15 mins of my morning, after I complete my AM work.

      1. @Most – I enjoy when I can do this…

        Pharrell didn't catch any flack for not having dark skinned sisters in his previous videos. He didn't have any. Frontin was his first solo single. Prior to that as a member of the Neptunes they had one previous video. Lapdance, it was a video that featured, NERD riding on bikes and skateboards and a house party, which was dark and you couldn't tell what anyone in the party looked like. Also, the Neptunes is one Black/Filipino guy and a Filipino guy, if anything, they were not even showcasing their own race by not featuring a Filipino chick in the lead. So credit should be given where it's due, Pharrell just picked the chick he wanted to be the lead, to be the lead.

        The real point behind Lauren London is two fold:

        1) Every one of those exotic girls in the music video, is a girl without foundation, bronzer, and sparkly ish on her face, a weave, girdle, or absurd amounts of free time in the gym. I've met Lauren personally, and while I will not lie to you, in real life, I have seen few women who were better looking than her, but hey she can be just as average as the next chick.

        2) What makes that dark skin girl gorgeous? Was it the fact that she was dark skin or that she was fly? Compared to Lauren in the video, I don't think she's better looking than Lauren, but she's dark skin and people gravitate to what's different. When I was in my flyer making days my mentor used to tell me, "stop putting Adriana Lima, Rosario Dawson and Meagan Goode on your flyer, put a chick that women can relate to. They want to see a chick that looks like them, so they feel like they belong at this party." It has nothing to do with them being exotic, or light skin or latina, it has to do with wanting to feel like someone is marketing towards you.

        1. The darker girl is gorgeous because she is. has nothing to do what what she's wearing on anything else.

          Lauren is Lauren, I've always liked her – but liked her best in ATL. She was thicker in ATL – that's my preference.

          As far as Pharrell catching flack – I remember reading a quote of him – at the time – saying he specifically cast her because she was dark skinned and folks complain about dark skin sisters not getting enough love. Maybe it wasn't his videos, maybe videos he'd be in or something along those lines. But – the point is – he went out of his way to cast a dark skinned sister.

        2. Two things…

          Every one of those exotic girls in the music video, is a girl without foundation, bronzer, and sparkly ish on her face

          Imma have to stop you right there. If you think the women in the video don't have make-up on you're naiver than I thought. There's a way to put on make-up w/o looking like you have on make-up.

          It's called the fresh face look – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMG4m72i5_8

          All the glow you see isn't because they made them jog around the set, that's makeup. Yes they have on WAY less make-up than chicks do in the average video (average in the majority sense) but trust me they're wearing makeup (and so are ALL of the men in the video).

          I still think they're pretty girls but a little concealer under the eyes goes a LONG WAY!

          I don’t think she’s better looking than Lauren, but she’s dark skin and people gravitate to what’s different.

          REALLLY!?!? I disagree. I say Lanisha has Lauren on the looks dept. She has a prettier smile and bone structure IMO.

        3. Please read the post on verysmartbrothas.com today. Has a lot to do w/ what we've been talking about today

    2. see that frontin video always confused me..It seemed to me like he was trying to get with both girls, so I considered it a co-leading situation. And if he wasn't trying to get with both girls then why was he grinding all up on LL and for that matter why was she even there?

      1. I got the same vibe. and if you ever saw the video for the song Maybe (which i LOVE btw) Lanisha is the lead in that one too. its a continuation of sorts. they get together and then this is the breakup song…

        watching it again, yep. she's prettier than Lauren. but Lauren does have those deeep dimples. dimples are so cute (I'm biased, lol)

  30. A few of you asked me to define light skinned, brown skinned and dark skinned. I have had this definition down pat since 2003, here goes:

    Dark skinned: Ask yourself, can this person be any darker than they are right now? Two answers, no and "I guess so, but if they was…" That person is dark skinned.

    Light Skinned: "Yellow booty, yellow bone." – #freegucci Red bone. Light, bright, damn there white. Lisa Raye? Yes. Melyssa Ford? No.

    Brown skinned: EVERYONE ELSE. Get you a paper bag from the Pathmark, Giant, or Food Lion and put it next to your face, are you lighter than that? No, then you're brown. Are you the same color as that? Yes, then you're brown. Turn your hand around and look at your palm, are you that color? Then you belong in the previous group.

    80% of us is brown. We can keep BS'ing all we want, but evolution is taking us to one skin tone and that's brown.

    And I leave you with this quote from Katt Williams:

    "Real n*99as have more important things to worry about. I looked in the mirror this morning and said, "You got a big nose…. That's right I.. have… a big nose. Keep it moving."

    You can't pick the cards the good lord dealt you, stop worrying about them. OK one more quote…

    "And as long as you takin' care of yo' business and doin' king sh*t you a king!" – The Late Great Pimp C

    I'm 5'9", a buck-55, soaking wet with my jeans on in a thunderstorm… with a pair of Tims. I do not have time to worry about Tyson Beckford, Idris Elba, the Latin dude from CSI or Boris Kodjoe. I throw them reggins two fingers when I see them stunting and I keep it moving. I love me, that's all that matters. I have never once had an issue where I would be mad at a girl who was fascinated with another dude other than me. "I love those who love me." – @IamDonJuan

  31. I'm a lil late in the game but here's my statement. I'm dark skinned & I luv my skin color. Ppl try 2 tell me I'm brown skin like that's supposed 2 be sum type of compliment. At the end of the day I'm Black & Black is beautiful. From Lauren London to Taral Hicks. Thank goodness my father raised me to love myself & how I look bcuz there are way too many Black Girls Lost in America. Idgaf if a dude prefers light skinned chicks, that just means he's not interested in me & I'm prob not interested in him either. I've never come across that issue bcuz altho ppl have a preference most times its not a requirement. It kills me that I sumtimes get a "pass" bcuz I do have long, naturally curly hair so I've been called "pretty for a dark skinned chick" smh. I luv all Black ppl from Atlanta to Brazil & I have never felt a way about a light skinned sister nor any light skinned honeys in music videos. Color has never been an issue for me. Maybe its my high self esteem, idk. But u guys do have a valid point as to why some darker females have issues & its really not their fault. Maybe its bcuz I'm from NY but I've never even knew this was a big issue until I moved to Atlanta & heard the ignorance out of sum ppls mouths ie. A lighter honey tryna play me bcuz I'm dark, even called me darkie (def ignored that bcuz clearly shorty has issues) & a dark dude who told me only a light skinned girl could break his heart bcuz they're the only type he considers bad (but he dated me & I proceeded to show him that dark skinned girls are heartbreakers too! Lol) That is all!

  32. Women are easily envious and we think about what we don't have…well not all of us, But plenty do and it makes it hard to form relationships when there is jealousy involved. Gotta learn to be happy with what you got and who you are.

    Peace, Love and Chocolate

    Tiffany

  33. Hmm, this is a really old post but I am a darkskinned female and this girl is cute but I would honestly consider her an average beauty. Not because I am programmed to hate myself, but just because of the way her features combine together. I've seen plenty of females who look identical to her in the face she is not a unique beauty compared to naomi campbell, alek wek, kenya moore, natasha ellie, or even kelly rowland. I am in no way hating however this is why I can see some would consider her average because she is not a dime a dozen. Tis all.

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