I want everyone to welcome back the one and only, Wisdom Is Misery for yet another banger … enjoy.
There is nothing complicated about a man, NOTHING. We are not the cold, calculating, robot-like machines some women seem to think we are and if you happen to fall into that group then you are giving us waaay too much credit. About the only thing that might be confused for complication is our simplicity. In fact, when it does come to men I think women simply try to over interpret us, which I can assure you will only lead to misinterpretation. This is never more apparent than in the realm of dating.
I was talking to my girl about the context of this very blog and she had some interesting input from the female perspective. I’ll share two things she said that I feel encompass the overall issue:
“We women can find optimism in the direst of circumstances. We’d rather settle for scraps and be in a relationship instead of finding what we deserve.”
“She isn’t going anywhere. So what incentive does he have to be greater when his minimum will yield the same result?”
I don’t know about the first quote personally, because I’m not a woman. I just thought it was interesting. The latter, however, is very true.
I’ll be the first to admit that men put women though a lot of shit. Yet, 9 times out of 10 it’s because you let us. True Story.
I mean you can’t get upset with a man for never committing when he knows you aren’t going anywhere REGARDLESS of if he commits or not. Generally men commit for two reasons: 1) They think they can’t do better and/or 2) They think they might lose you.
Therefore, using the often underused philosophy of common sense, if he 1) thinks he can do better and/or 2) thinks/knows you won’t leave him, chances are he will NEVER commit to you. And yes, most dudes are deftly afraid of commitment, BUT if you can’t inspire him to overcome that fear then you are not the one for him or he is not the one for you. Period.
If you think you’re going to ‘wait a man into commitment’ it is far more likely that you will be waiting forever – and in vain. Here’s why…
Men will date a woman out of convenience with no plans to EVER go beyond that phase with that woman. Now, if you’re content with being a woman of convenience, then more power to ya – but if you want a commitment from THAT dude, you got a problem.
If you’re giving a man sex, affection, love, etc. etc. – essentially giving away the milk, the cow and the whole damn farm for free then he will date you, excuse me while I quote from The Sandlot here: “FOR-EVER, FOR-EVER, FOR-EVER, FOR-EVER” without any thought or plan to commit to you, let alone marry you. In fact, it is QUITE possible that when he is ready for that type of relationship it will not be with you.
Ladies I know you might believe he loves you and maybe he does, but love and commitment are not mutually exclusive. So let me state this frankly: a man can love you without planning to marry you. If you’re content with that, great! But if you want more than a stated “I Love You,” cuddling, time spent together, sex and midnight love dedications on the radio, then at some point you’re going to have to speak up.
I’m not a fan of ultimatums but I will admit they get results because the outcome is clearly defined. Do X by Y-time or Z will happen. The problem is when it comes to dating most people don’t firmly commit to Z when X and Y fail to happen.
That’s why you should never – and for emphasis let me repeat that – NEVER, tell a man you’re going to leave him and then don’t leave (or leave and comeback). This tells us we can get away with everything just shy of placing a Chuck Norris styled roundhouse kick to your mother’s medulla oblongata and you aren’t going ANYwhere. There is nothing more dangerous than a man who realizes he can tell you the truth without repercussion. e.g. “I will never marry you.” After you have told him that you want to get married.
Basically if you ever plan on being someone’s partner – girlfriend, wife, or other – say what you mean and mean what you say AND THEN FOLLOW THROUGH if you want a clear commitment sometime before a quarter to never. Otherwise the only person you can really blame is the woman in the mirror, but if you disagree and it makes you feel better and sleep easier at night then feel free to blame everyone else but yourself because we can all see how effective that’s been…
Well damn! I guess you told us!
I think you said it best, but I'm SURE most of us women will still keep hope alive, (no jesse) and think that we will get something from a man who is clearly giving us nothing!
And the fact that women "keep trying" is what keeps the world in order, because if real females didn't care, it'd be a world full of playing Madden on xbox and waiting for the next jumpoff to slide through. shower. repeat.
This sorta hit home but it's such an eye opener! Great job W.I.M.!!!
wowza. if this didn't speak to my soul…. lol
i was just telling myself earlier that if i don't follow through… how can i expect anything different? now this isn't on as grand a scale as a relationship ultimatum, but with anything, it's good to keep your word (and threats) because a person will surely take advantage of you if you don't.
and WOW at "i will never marry you" after you've said you want to be married… i know someone in a similar situation. may have to direct her to this jizzzoint. lol.
wowza. if this didn’t speak to my soul…. lol
^^^That's exactly what I thought when i was done reading the post but didn't say that in my comment! lol
Using lower case "i's" indicate low-self esteem. Always use upper case "I's" when referring to yourself.
You are very right. I've been in situations that I've tried to stand my ground but Z never happened cuz I felt maybe one more chance could make a difference but it never changed anything. Infact he stopped
taking my firm words serious.
Long time reader; first time commenter:
(Male here)I understand what the article is trying to convey but I dont think an ultimatum is the way to go about it. If you have to force your partner to do something, they may do it but they probably wont be happy, which will lead to other issues(regret? doubt? something more?).
Communication is the way to go(as it always is). Communicate with your feelings with your partners and let them know what is going on. If you dont feel like they will commit, then break it off (as mentioned in the article). If they decide to come back, then you decide if/how you want to proceed.
I agree and as QueenT says below, perhaps 'choice' is a better word. Regardless, in my experience I see women (friends or whatever) dont even bother to have the discussion. They essentially keep waiting for him to 'make the move' or what have you. I feel that more women should clearly explain to their man or men in general what they want and if he doesnt want that too then they should leave, IMMEDIATELY. That or at least recognize this isnt going to be a 'relationship' anytime soon and may never.
To me that's not as much an ultimatum as it is pursuing what's best for you. Hell, you can still be friends, you just obviously arent meant to be together – at that time anyway. (If he really wants you, he'll come after you, but not if you continue to keep giving him everything outside of a commitment.)
To sit around waiting, quite possibly in vain, for him to make the call to be in a relationship or not with you seems to suggest that you cant or dont want to do better. That or, as I asked later, there are so FEW good men that you dont want to take the risk of losing this good man in pursuit of another. …To be honest, as a man, I dont get it.
I know women who will date a man exclusively despite the fact that he is not honoring the 'relationship' in the same way. What most men do in the reverse sitch, is date one woman (the main) but AT LEAST he'll date other women on the side just in case the main doesnt ever decide she wants a commitment. Dating a man exclusively without knowing where it's going (sometimes for years and years mind you) makes NO kinda sense to me.
You've said a mouth full. A wise woman once told me to "don't commit to a man who is not committed to me."
Wis I think you should repost this…This right here is THE TRUTH!
I love that you put your commenting/reading status on here just to clear it up for me. That made it easy. 🙂
*hugs* (I'm a hugger. What can i say) Thanks for the welcome! Ill comment more frequently when I can! 😀
This was seriously true…cause i've dealt with such situations…and i'm the type that is ok with waiting till a certain extent then i get tired but i have a serious issue with speaking my mind & the things that I want. If a convo is had about feelings/relationships/what have you, i'm normally really shy as to saying what I'm thinking & being direct…I'm trying to do better though…
Any suggestions on how to break the cycle on such tendencies?
we are >>>here<<<
I think my fear of the unknown gets in the way. I've been constantly working at this and "going out on a limb" as far as opening up and being direct…but could still probably do more.
I think SOME women are afraid of the negative outcome…losing the person you care about because DEEP down they know what the outcome will be. I've been there before…but I can attest that staying is far worse. Telling yourself and living a lie will drive you batty. And you can block your own blessing of finding the one that does want to commit to you.
I don't even need to write much today- you just said it all.
Thank you so much for this outlet SBM…
I've been reading this site for over a month (accidentally discovered this)…and it's the best read when I'm not knee deep in my notes or cadaver bodies!
I'm a med student, and my days of LONG hours of studying can get pretty old…and the Black populace at my school is lacking…and I just came in January from living in Asia for two years…so yea…i totally need a RECONNECT before I completely fall out of touch!
In reading this, I can comment for days!!!!
And b/c it's 3:12 AM and I have class at 8:00AM (TGIF) I will most def comment in the morn in between classes…just acknowledging that I am thankful for this site!
Welcome! And you must have stories for days after living in Asia for 2 years! That is amazing!
Son, did you just welcome shorty? Sane is gonna snuff you when she sees this… #WatchYourBack lol…
mwahaha. Sane is the leader (and only member) of the welcome pack
yea…i did…and i thought about that…but still wanted to comment on the fact that she lived in Asia for TWO years! That is effin awesome…i'll deal with the backlash another time, lol
LMAO! This warning sounded so dire.
Seen this is such a glorious day and Forgiveness Friday at that, I'll let it ride. This time.
Very very true.
I gave my ex husband a choice. I don't like that word ultimatum. He had a choice to marry me or we go our separate ways…no hard feelings. Do You. I said that understanding that it could be over..but, he did indeed return with engagement ring in hand…we had some good years..we are no longer married…but, the point is we had a good run..and we have two beautiful sons….some people may say I forced him. No, I did not. He was free as a bird to make whatever choice he wanted to make..I was prepared for whatever…..sometimes, you have to look out for yourself…I knew I wanted to be married to this man…now, hindsight looking back..I should've just turned down his proposal…but, then we wouldn't have our two amazing sons….it was meant to be for the timeframe that it was……
The point I am making is if you are stuck in a rut in your relationship. Give that man a choice today and then by golly stick to it.
Queen T, I like the word "choice." We all have choices and if they decide to walk after effectively communicating your wants and needs, then you're better off.
I like the word choice as well.
I think it's so important that we remember that WE have choices, too, when it comes to our happiness. We can stay with this man and not get what we want or we can leave this man and find what we want else where or we can tell him what we want. If you want to get married or be in a committed relationship, you have choices. You can stick around and try to wait him out. You can find somebody else. Or you can communicate and let him know what's up. Whatever choice you make, you have to be honest with yourself and honest with him. Like QueenT said, when she told her ex what his choices were, she said it with an "understanding that it could be over." She was honest with herself and honest with him.
"I think it’s so important that we remember that WE have choices, too, when it comes to our happiness."
QueenT you are such a wise wise woman……You need to write a book.
"This tells us we can get away with everything just shy of placing a Chuck Norris styled roundhouse kick to your mother’s medulla oblongata and you aren’t going ANYwhere."
Don't talk about Mama. Mama said that's not gonna happen. #WaterBoy LOL
d(^_^)b good post. Makes sense. A lot of females have been in this situation. Reason why we're all like, "Ohh, hit home."
For all my daughters sake (and mine). Thank You.
I can't take your thank you (because it's not mine to take), but I will welcome you!
Lotta bad people in the world. Most of them don't even know they are bad. Some of them are ridiculously selfish and will manipulate you by whatever means you permit. The truth is, you gotta learn your worth (not ALL women deserve a Denzel in his prime, you better be real with yourself!) and find that equivalent man and don't be willing to take his bullshit. If you do get a too good to be true gent, he better be the one thinking you're The Dream (shawty you a ten?) cuz otherwise you'll never hog tie his ass.
Dammit QueenT! No cosign.. what I meant to say was, I second that! Indubitably!!
You just found yourself a special place in my heart for using my favorite word randomly. Also, your comment kind of depressed me. 🙂
I actually forgot to ask a question in this blog and didnt get a chance to submit a re-edit. So, that question is:
LADIES, are there so FEW "good" men out there that you would stay in a dead in relationship with a man your deem a 'good man' vs. finding/looking for a good man that you might actually have a future with?
Truth is, getting a man to commit is as much timing and luck as it is any one (or one million) things you can do right or wrong. Im sure people (other women) will tell you different, but dont believe the hype.
….be back later.
A dead relationship….no. I wouldn't ever want to stay in a dead relationship for any reason. Even if there are few good men. I'd rather be alone. But…I have made some concessions in the past and lowered my standards a little because I honestly feel there are few men that exhibit qualities that I want. Operative word is "I". Nevermind "good men." Good is in the eye of the beholder.
And the whole "he's not going to change if he knows you're not going anywhere" is very true but works the other way around also. My last relationship was with a man who adored me. He wasn't leaving me for nuthin'. Considering his past girlfriends, I think in his mind, I was the best of the bunch, so I could yell, act crazy, break dates, not do anything he wants, etc…and he would still stay. That in turn made me unhappy. I needed a challenge. I needed to know that he had a mind of his own and I wasn't his whole life. So I ended it. For that reason amongst others.
But my question is, why do men stay with women they don't want to marry and will never marry for whatever reason? The sex? If they are looking for someone special, couldn't they be inhibiting themselves from finding her if they are emotionally and physically unavailable?
" why do men stay with women they don’t want to marry and will never marry for whatever reason? The sex? If they are looking for someone special, couldn’t they be inhibiting themselves from finding her if they are emotionally and physically unavailable?"
IMO I think because MEN CAN'T BE BY THEMSELVES #whew….. just missed that flying tomato to the frontal lobe#
they do want the security of having constant poon and NO I don't believe they are inhibiting themselves cuz they are definitely keeping their eye out for the NEXT BEST THING….and if and when they find it they will chuck the deuces and be OUT!!!!
"But my question is, why do men stay with women they don’t want to marry and will never marry for whatever reason? The sex? If they are looking for someone special, couldn’t they be inhibiting themselves from finding her if they are emotionally and physically unavailable?"
In most cases, yes probably the sex. That and the simplicity. Although without realizing it, I think you're talking about two different men here.
1) The man who DOES want something serious probably doesnt have this problem, as he is probably not wasiting his time in a realtionship that isnt going anywhere.
2) The man who DOESNT want something serious (though he might look and act the exact same way) is going to keep having sex with the woman – because what man turns down easy/guranteed sex? When he is ready for a serious commitment it might very well be with the same woman, but probably not. What is more likely to happen, is that he will either a) begin looking around on the side or b) just leave that woman stuck out.
Sinnamon: "But my question is, why do men stay with women they don’t want to marry and will never marry for whatever reason? The sex? If they are looking for someone special, couldn’t they be inhibiting themselves from finding her if they are emotionally and physically unavailable?"
You're making a common misconception: men don't want the same thing women want. Men will stay with women without marrying her because a lot of men don't need the official title of husband, and don't want the financial risk with little other reward that goes with marriage.
It could be more than the sex, often times it is merely the complacency of having someone there. Not that some men can't be alone, but someone there, so Ms. Right Now is good enough, and they'll worry about Ms. Right somewhere down the line.
Hugh Jazz: You’re making a common misconception: men don’t want the same thing women want. Men will stay with women without marrying her because a lot of men don’t need the official title of husband, and don’t want the financial risk with little other reward that goes with marriage.
Damn. Well said. I worked very hard over the years to get very good credit and building up my savings. I cringe sometimes when I think of how SOME women would look at my savings account "I know how we can spend OUR money". uhhh WTF lol
No, there is always the other option…dare I say it….being by yourself. Its not that bad. It beats staying in an unhappy and unhealthy relationship…or settling for someone who is not on the same page as you are. Its making that final step in that direction that is the problem..its knowing what you want.
At this stage in my life I don't want to be married..so that is not going to be a dealbreaker for me..but, loyalty and committment is very necessary….
"LADIES, are there so FEW “good” men out there that you would stay in a dead in relationship with a man your deem a ‘good man’ vs. finding/looking for a good man that you might actually have a future with?"
WIM, I would rather be single, "just dating" and happy than in a dead end relationship. Having a man for the sake of having a man does nothing but cause headaches.
I #Co-Sign this blog 10,000%!!!!! I agree — Ultimatiums don't work they have a way of backfiring on you no matter what the circumstances are. Like my momma alwayz told me "You can't rush/force a man to do anything he generally don't feel in his heart/mind to do"
CaramelBoom: "Communication is the way to go(as it always is). Communicate with your feelings with your partners and let them know what is going on. If you dont feel like they will commit, then break it off (as mentioned in the article). If they decide to come back, then you decide if/how you want to proceed."
This is the key. If you are dating a guy, before you are officially in the relationship stage, he should know you want to be married. It's funny how many women tell me they can't get a commitment out of their men, and when I ask them did you say that up front, they hem and haw. Most men aren't turning down an consistent flow of poon, so if that's what he is receiving before you enter an actual relationship, that is likely to continue. Men already have next to nothing to gain from marriage (excluding religious reasons, but yesterday's discussion is over), so it behooves a woman to find a man who does eventually want to be a husband and father, and let him know that is what you want also before things get serious.
Now that won't necessarily stop all the users and abusers, but it will eliminate many of the commitment-phobes.
"it behooves a woman to find a man who does eventually want to be a husband and father, and let him know that is what you want also before things get serious."
Well said Hugh. It all goes back to effective communication. Say what you mean and mean what you say. Don't pretend to want one thing when in fact you want another. If a man tells you up front that he doesn't want a committment and you want one, then move along. Keep him in the friend category but don't expect to be the one to change his mind.
I think a lot of people don't realize that timing plays a HUGE role in commitement. They say everyone gets some sort of break when they become successful. You might get a guy in his prime who wants to play the field. You may get a man who's been scorned over and over by "good women" and has said eff a relationship. You may get a simp who's wookin pa nub in all places. I say this to say, sometimes its right place wrong time. Hard to accept but very true.
I cosign this post though. Good isht WIM!
"sometimes its right place wrong time"
VERY hard to accept at times…but acceptance will help you move on.
I could give you a hug!
You're so right on point on most of the issues you raised!
I've actually discussed most of them on my blog..
Thanks for this post.
Welcome. I think. I'm gonna have to check out this blog, when I get a moment.
I think I agree and disagree to an extent. I think a lot of the stuff you said about women is true, but, the stuff you've said about men I tend to disagree with. The primary bit I wanna focus in on was this statement:
"Generally men commit for two reasons: 1) They think they can’t do better and/or 2) They think they might lose you."
I disagree with this 100%. These, to me, are the words of a man who has yet to commit. As a man who has committed, while these things are in your mind, they are far from the primary reasons why you put a ring on it. In a nutshell, if you build a great relationship, with a great person whom you actively love and could see building a family with, commitment is just the natural progression. Prolonging the time you take to make that commitment because you're "getting everything you want without it" is a sign that you have not yet become a fully grown adult male.
Man, at his best, is a proactive creature – not a reactive one. All this talk of ultimatums, and women needing to be clear about what their expectations are and this idea that it's the woman's job to guide the direction of the relationship – it's all reactive, all of it reeks of male immaturity to me. A man should know what he wants and he should communicate that to the women he meets. If he wants a relationship that could possibly lead to marriage, he should communicate that. If he wants a casual girlfriend with no thoughts or considerations about the future, he should communicate that, if he just wants to smash, he should communicate that. The woman should make her choice accordingly. If she wants something different, she can choose something different. As a man, you know when a woman's expectations of a relationship are deeper than yours. We know this. Pretending to be surprised when asks more of you is silly. Continuing to take, from a woman, everything she has to give while knowing you'll never give more than the bare minimum is a sucker move. You know she's on her knees at the edge of the bed every night, praying that you'll one day do the right thing – and you know you're not going to… that's weak and immature.
So yeah, I agree that there are certain things a woman can do to weed out some of these weaker specimens. Things like – know what she wants before she starts dating, know how to express what she wants, be strong enough to be patient, be happy enough to enough to enjoy singleness without going stir crazy… but, at the end of the day, it's the man's job to communicate clearly his expectations, it's the man's job to dictate the direction of the relationship… from the jump.
Let's not confuse that.
Then you wonder why she won't follow you once you're married… because she had to drag through every stage of your relationship all the way down the aisle…
Most you hit it on the head, but a lot fo times men will tell women their intentions and women hear 'All i gotta do is wait xyz amount of time and he'll be mine!"
I think that happens some of the time Streetz, and I think those women are stupid. But, I also think, more than that happening, I think men are purposely vague about their expectations and intentions. This to me is weak.
Let me open by saying, I respect your opinion and thought the piece you and I believe Dr. J wrote on husband vs. wanting to be married was very insightful.
Still, we'll have to agree to disagree. Though it seems like we agree more than we disagree…
This: "So yeah, I agree that there are certain things a woman can do to weed out some of these weaker specimens. Things like – know what she wants before she starts dating, know how to express what she wants, be strong enough to be patient, be happy enough to enough to enjoy singleness without going stir crazy… but, at the end of the day, it’s the man’s job to communicate clearly his expectations, it’s the man’s job to dictate the direction of the relationship… from the jump."
I disagree with. To your point, I do believe MATURE men will communicate this clearly to women in MOST cases. But arguably, even mature men will take advantage sometimes, especially if it's easy for them to do so. These women are often relegated to the role of #sidechick.
More so than directly reflecting on me (I'm committed right now), I'm frustrated by my female friends who keep dealing with these same dudes year after year and getting upset with HIM because he wont commit to THEM. Also, in their cases, the men HAVE told them they dont want anything serious, yet they continue to stick with him. If I'm reading your post correctly, you suggest that its up to the man to leave them alone if he doesnt want anything more – but they're giving him sex, food, affection, and yes "on her knees at the edge of the bed every night" why would he walk away from that? Plus, I bet these guys are keeping the #sideeye out for a replacement chick that they will actually probably "wife up" and leave my friends high and dry.
Thus, I feel the responsibility and as a result the outcomes falls on BOTH parties, surely not just the man. And I do strongly feel that if a man, mature or otherwise, thinks he can do better and/or thinks he wont lose you not matter what he does, will not commit. Perhaps I'm in the minority on that opinion.
Just my 2 cents.
I hear where you're coming from, and I appreciate that you're trying to give women sound advice. That why I said, I agree with what you're saying about women.
I just think we're starting to have this tendancy to encourage women to do things differently, like they're doing something wrong, and on the flipside, we shy away from encouraging men to do what's right. This is SBM. A place for males to congregate and talk about male stuff. So while the women are more than welcome (trust me dog the thugs will dub it) if we're gonna talk about why men don't commit, I feel like we have to focus on what we're doing wrong, not what women are doing wrong.
Also, I think our definition of manhood is different. The hardest break up I ever had was with a girlfriend who fell in love with me, who I was not in love with. The relationship, for all intents and purposes was perfect. We had good chemistry, the sex was great, she cooked and cleaned, and I did a good job as her BF… But, I knew she loved me, and I knew I'd never love her. So, I broke her heart. She cried and cried and cried, but, you know what, a fully grown, adult male, it was the only option. To continue to take and not give back, or to give back less than you're receiving, is not a manly thing to do.
Re: "I just think we’re starting to have this tendancy to encourage women to do things differently, like they’re doing something wrong, and on the flipside, we shy away from encouraging men to do what’s right."
Honestly, I dont see it that way. I dont feel like men or women are doing anything wrong, more so than they arent seeing things through the same lense. What I was trying to convey here, and maybe I fell short, is that women should leave men alone that are not ready to commit. Yes, the same rule should apply to men and IN A PERFECT WORLD men wouldnt use women while they bide their time between immaturity and maturity/messing around and commitment.
Unfortunately, we dont live in a perfect world and I think you would be hard pressed to convince men (here or abroad) to stop taking sex, love, and whatever advantage from women. Thus, in this regard, I feel that is up to the woman to "protect" herself as best she can from the advances of these type of men. And dating a man for years and years because it MIGHT got somewhere eventually, to me, is a very poor strategy.
Anyway, good discussion. I'll be on hush mode for a min while I wrap up some work. Might comment more later. I preciate the feedback from you and everyone.
Good points Wis. Man I hate that I missed this post…this was sooo good.
Wis and Most even though you both have slightly different ways of looking at things, your both saying the same truth. Your honesty is greatly appreciated and not taken for granted. Unfortunately this isn't something you get often enough nowadays.
I understand what you're getting at…we (women) need to be covering our own asses and NOT expect a man to do it for us. If a man chooses to be real and leave when he determines we're not the one…that's a bonus. But we have to be proactive in our own right.
"Protect your heart, and preserve your time…" Words to live by from my daddy.
You are right to a degree WisdomIsMisery. However, when I guy misleads to let down your guard and LIES about his intention then that is when the issues come about. Now, if he says I am not ready for a committment and you stay then the pain is on you. However, when he gives you just enough to peek your hopes KNOWING he doesn't feel for you in that way then that is manipulative and wrong. Many men do that and then wonder why women are so disgruntle. You can't be mad with someone telling you the truth. You can be mad when someone is using you and being deceptive. There is a difference. Also men need to take more responsibility they are suppose to be the leaders. If men aren''t setting the example then we are all screwed. Men want the title of lead but play the role of follower…Contradiction at it's best.
Nice! I dig.
You're right. It's more about a man (and a woman) just being mature and able to genuinely communicate their intentions. The next time I fall in love and settle down with someone, I don't want it to be because he can't find anyone better, or he's scared of me leaving. It should be because we've built something together and he loves me. Maybe there are some women out there with better qualities than me, that cook better, sex better, or whatever, but will he be able to have the same connection with them that he has with me…
Man…I gotta applaud you…cause you really spit it. Im like "damn" right now…real talk. I like what WIM wrote, but I actually disagreed with some of what he said in the vein of your comment. you articulated the hell out of some of my thoughts. CO-SIGN
"A man should know what he wants and he should communicate that to the women he meets. If he wants a relationship that could possibly lead to marriage, he should communicate that. If he wants a casual girlfriend with no thoughts or considerations about the future, he should communicate that, if he just wants to smash, he should communicate that."
THIS is what MOST women are asking for…most SANE women that is.
I agree, that some hear these very things and are convinced that if they "ride it out" (literally and figuratively) that they can change the man, or that they are such a great catch that the man will "wake up". That is stupid, and you should be prepared for heartache. I say this out of experience…it won't happen, and if it does you should play the lotto because you're one lucky chick.
Maturity is always a factor when dealing with both men and women…so I'll leave that alone. I think what's more important is how "selfishness" comes into play. I think that men who do not communicate their intentions up front are just that…selfish. And so are those the lie about them.
"THIS is what MOST women are asking for…most SANE women that is."
Did I hear (see) my name?*
*Ionno why, but I always wanted to do that. Don't mind me, proceed.
LOL!!! I'll give you that as a shout out. I support it!
Most: "Man, at his best, is a proactive creature – not a reactive one."
You and WIM are making valid points, but this point sums up why both of you are correct. Man is proactive at his best, but the next question is what is that man's goal? As long as xes feels good, there will be men who will prioritize xes over relationships. Emotions will usually get involved even with FWBs. So marriage is not a man's goal, he will be proactive in having xes as easily as possible.
I agree with you that the man that does this is immature, but if he doesn't share your morality of not using women as come dumpsters, then he is simply being proactive at getting what he wants.
If a man wants to be proactive about finding as many woman to sleep with as he possibly can – then that's his prerogative. A man just needs to be open enough to say what he wants and how he feels. If he can't why even mess with him in first place – at any level.
"Man, at his best, is a proactive creature – not a reactive one. All this talk of ultimatums, and women needing to be clear about what their expectations are and this idea that it’s the woman’s job to guide the direction of the relationship – it’s all reactive, all of it reeks of male immaturity to me. A man should know what he wants and he should communicate that to the women he meets. If he wants a relationship that could possibly lead to marriage, he should communicate that. If he wants a casual girlfriend with no thoughts or considerations about the future, he should communicate that, if he just wants to smash, he should communicate that. The woman should make her choice accordingly. If she wants something different, she can choose something different. As a man, you know when a woman’s expectations of a relationship are deeper than yours. We know this. Pretending to be surprised when asks more of you is silly. Continuing to take, from a woman, everything she has to give while knowing you’ll never give more than the bare minimum is a sucker move. You know she’s on her knees at the edge of the bed every night, praying that you’ll one day do the right thing – and you know you’re not going to… that’s weak and immature. "
Mr. Most I applaud you for this. This is the truth. You're a one of a kind specimen.
"A man should know what he wants and he should communicate that to the women he meets….The woman should make her choice accordingly. If she wants something different, she can choose something different."
I think reference some of us women, that lies the problem. We think we can change his mind by doing XYZ.
But in order for a woman to be able to make a sound decision, that form of communication must happen. Again goes back to what I said earlier, say what you mean and mean what you say.
Thank you for posting this here! I know too many times where I've asked men for direct answers and they lie or play childish games. So I end up judging the man by his actions, and leaving.
Then, these same men try to pretend that they were feeling a woman like that. Men do need to just be honest and let the chips fall where they may, rather than being greedy and wasting a woman's time.
Thank you for this post! I wish more man were like you!
STANDING "O" *slow clapping with a tear falling down my right cheek* lol WOW is all I can say.
I'll try to make this short as possible. Everything you said is respectable and right. I mean you hit it right on the nail.
I also think @WisdomIsMisery is right as well. You're both are right. In a "PERFECT WORLD," as he put it, every man is like you. It would be men evaluating themselves and looking at their wrong more than what women are doing wrong. In that world women would probably be dropping down on one knee and asking for men like you hand in marriage lol. And although I have faith that more men will become that man as they grow older, I know Lord's will I wake up tomorrow every man on the planet won't think the same as you do, not even the majority. So in essence of what @WisdomIsMisery said us women should do what we can to "protect" ourselves. That includes keeping our legs closed. But unfortunately that's where even women fall weak at. It's not just men who want sex, although I know you guys know that by now. So although I agree that it is the man's job to communicate clearly his expectations, women need to understand every man she meets will not be that honest with her, especially if he knows he can manipulate her enough to get into her pants. Even the guys people deem as "good men" if you tell them stop excepting sex, affection, love, food etc. from women they have no plans to commit to or marry they'll hit you with the side eye like "man you crazy." It sucks that's the world we live in but as a woman who wants and hopes things to change not just for myself but my nieces, friends and perhaps daughter(s) I live by what you mentioned at the end of this post and that's "be strong enough to be patient, be happy enough to enjoy singleness without going stir crazy" because until more males realize what their role is this single woman will remain HAPPY and single =)
Again lovely post and I know I'm a billion years late on it but I couldn't help but to reply.
Most this is spot on….I think it's so interesting the conflicting arguments between you and Wis. You as a married man and Wis as a single man. Everyone is different and has their reasons for doing the things they do the way in which they do them. But as you said, at the end of the day, there is right and wrong. And no matter how you slice it, wrong is wrong.
Somebody asked me yesterday after you smash a dime, where else is there to go but down? After you own a Maybach, what else can you do? I said, "I pulled out the Ferrari last night, but i'm trying to push that Lotus, Delorean, Lambo, McLaren, Mercedes, Ashton Martin, Maybach, Porsche, and after I push the new ish, I want to drive the vintage, and the concept cars too.
The question is why am I choosing to drive the Scaglietti, because this is my favorite car. I've put in work, and i'm trying to build the best car I can have. But if my Scaglietti should so happen to walk away, i'll be in a brand new Maybach by Monday.
And I put it like this, if a woman gives me ultimatum, she better have a bus pass. "Don't you.. ever.. get to… comfortable…."
This is a great post and there are great comments as well. I am kind of in the same vein as QueenT in that I'm not looking for marriage any time soon, however committment and loyalty are a must in an relationship I get into. I just don't place as much importance on having that piece of paper as I once did. That said, I may again one day, and if that's the case I will communicate that appropriately. If the person I'm with isn't picking up what I'm putting down, I'm not the type to stay. I don't give ultimatums, but if we know that we want 2 different things, then why stay? I am happy enough being single that I will never compromise myself to just have someone.
I also agree with Most (as usual). Even if there are mature men out there who will continue to take advantage of a woman who isn't willing to leave, the actions there are immature even if he isn't. It's up to both parties to communicate properly and take action when necessary.
Great post Sane – I love where you are in your life right now.
I LOVE "The Sandlot" quote….I say that ish all the time.
Anywho, this post was the truth. India Arie.
Let me make one more quick PSA – before I get up outta here for the day…
For the Record: there's no such thing as a "mature man", or an "immature man". The former is redundant and the latter is oxymoronic.
Now, there is a such thing as an immature male… it's called a boy. Maturity is a prerequisite for manhood. If your definition of a "man" does not tacitly include maturity, that might be the heart of your problem.
Great post — very direct.
Marriage is a one-sided contract in favor of the woman unless she is deemed mentally ill. What man wants to sign a lop sided contract when they don't have to???
I think this is my last comment, at least for the day. I've had lots of discussion about this blog (here and off-line) as I knew I would. I think The Most Intesting Man and I had some good albeit contrary points; we clearly dont see eye to eye. Nor do we need to – and maybe that just further highlights the issue.
Anyway, I believe from a woman's perspective, TiffNicky said it best: "I understand what you’re getting at…we (women) need to be covering our own asses and NOT expect a man to do it for us. If a man chooses to be real and leave when he determines we’re not the one…that’s a bonus. But we have to be proactive in our own right.
“Protect your heart, and preserve your time…” Words to live by from my daddy." — At the heart of this post, this is what I was trying to get across.
I think Hugh Jazz summed it up best from the male perspective in all his posts. #Cosign to those.
Now perhaps I'll write more on this later but the question I'm left with that The MIMITW brought up is this: If a man is to be considered immature if he does not actively convey what he wants from a woman at the beginning and/or during the relationship (or lack there) – which I do not disagree with – then cant the same be said about a woman? Is it not immature of her to continue to pursue a man that has told her what he does or does not want from her? Especially if what he wants is clearly contradictory to what she wants.
Furthermore, is it not immature of this woman to think that she and she alone will be the one to 'change' this man (as I heard brought up a few times)? If this logic applies to men, then the converse should be that a "mature" woman should recognize when to stay, when to go and find security in either of her decisions, whatever it may be.
Truthfully, I get tired of the "its all up to the man" mantra, except when it isnt. In my eyes, the burden falls on BOTH parties. However, if you believe it is indeed "all up to the man" then you cant or shouldnt be upset if he decides to play you and doesnt let you in on the game plan because you've already dictated that you dont want to be on equal footing.
At least thats how I see it. *shrugs*
"Truthfully, I get tired of the “its all up to the man” mantra, except when it isnt. In my eyes, the burden falls on BOTH parties. However, if you believe it is indeed “all up to the man” then you cant or shouldnt be upset if he decides to play you and doesnt let you in on the game plan because you’ve already dictated that you dont want to be on equal footing. "
I was just talking to a friend that's been waiting months for the guy she's currently dating to let her know what their next move will be. They appear to be really feeling each other and have been dating eachother exclusively for a while. But, dating exclusively and being in a committed relationship are not the same. She hasn't made mention to him that she wants to be in a committed relationship at all. I asked her what she was waiting for and she said, "For him to say something." o_O
This was so ridiculous to me. We're not in high school anymore, this isn't "Ask him if he likes me, but don't tell him I like him unless he says he likes me" teenage stuff. We are grown ups. I told her to woman up and tell that man how she feels. She said she'll wait a couple more months and if he doesn't say anything by then she might . . . *sigh* . . . I feel like she'll be waiting forever.
I think to a man being in a committed relationship and dating exclusively are the same thing. Even to me I would think if I am dating someone exclusively we are in a committed relationship…..or am I presuming to much?
There's a fine line. And most of that line is just the "title." LOL. IMO they're in a relationship but she doesn't feel that way, hence her waiting for a sign. He probably feels it's the same as well. But, we may never know if she doesn't speak up, SMH.
"Now perhaps I’ll write more on this later but the question I’m left with that The MIMITW brought up is this: If a man is to be considered immature if he does not actively convey what he wants from a woman at the beginning and/or during the relationship (or lack there) – which I do not disagree with – then cant the same be said about a woman? Is it not immature of her to continue to pursue a man that has told her what he does or does not want from her? Especially if what he wants is clearly contradictory to what she wants.
Furthermore, is it not immature of this woman to think that she and she alone will be the one to ‘change’ this man (as I heard brought up a few times)? If this logic applies to men, then the converse should be that a “mature” woman should recognize when to stay, when to go and find security in either of her decisions, whatever it may be."
In an ideal world, a man (women too) should be deliberate when it comes to what they want out of life. When you think about it, people are more often than not deliberate in most other aspects of our lives except relationships sometimes (or so it seems). This is actually the reason why I'm not focusing on having a serious relationship at this point of my life. My focus isn't very concentrated right now, among other reasons.
As for changing anyone…I believe in letting someone be themselves and find who you're truly looking for. No one wants to feel like a project. While you're busy trying to mold someone, the person you're looking for could be closer than you think. Orrrr…not, lol, but you get my point (hopefully).
If truer words were ever spoken I ain't heard em…
Wonderful post, and oh-so-true
Sad part about it though is I'm willing to gamble that a good # of women already know this, they just refuse to apply it. I always believed that the best advice, while easy to receive, is hard to put in motion.
Everyone has been in an uproar. Especially on twitter referring to what a good relationship is or is not. It seems to me that people should date more instead of focusing on claiming the prize of the commitment.
What you said the main reasons a man doesn't commit sounds reasonable enough to me.I think we (ladies) should just relax.
This post speaks directly to what my friends and I have been discussing lately! Sadly when feelings are involved we women somtimes put what we truly want on the back burner thinking he will someday realize what he has and make things concrete. In a perfect world maybe this is true but the world we currently live in is far from perfect! While I do think it is immature of a man to not be upfront with his intentions I also believe it is rather foolish of us women to continue holding on to something that isn't there.
Personally I refuse to be the "boobie" prize! Either is it or it ain't plan and simple… Walking away may hurt, sting and even burn but its nothing but a feeling that will go away,I rather leave and hurt temporaily then stay and hurt forever…
This post was so real… spoke to me so…
hmmm… I'm just kinda lost for words right now but just had comment that I appreciate the honesty. Really needed it.
And the fact that women “keep trying” is what keeps the world in order, because if real females didn’t care, it’d be a world full of playing Madden on xbox and waiting for the next jumpoff to slide through. shower. repeat.
#Chuuch, kingdom hall and all that#
Ninjas betta recognize… *hmph*
So how do you get a man to committ? If you love each other, but there's just not enough committment for you, do you just up and leave him? Stop talking to him and forget about everything you shared?
yes or you'll end up being a 'forever girlfriend'.
I agree 100% with this article!!! Men need help committing. Giving up ones freedom is a major step in ours lives and we man will hold on as long as possible. So don't make it easy on your man. Be forthcoming, and tell him what your expectation are, and stick to your guns. If he is the one, he will comply or risk loosing you.
some things just dont need to be said … this is one of them
This diatribe is illogical:
1. Freedom means just that!
2. Ultimatums are inherently "anti-freedom"!
3. Any partner is free to do and say what they feel within themselves is best…..
4. …..But once these words are said, the other party is free to act/answer as THEY CHOOSE!!
This is where the breakdown occurs!
It's your choice to put an ultimatum on the table…but…the posing of an ultimatum DOES NOT obligate the other person to accept your point of view!!
The game is simpler…. Men will commit to what they want to commit to (…the same as women)…And it has absolutely nothing to do with the cow/milk scenario!!!
It takes two to agree…not one to decide and manipulate the other into accepting a foregone conclusion!!!
That's what manhood is really about!!! If a woman can make up my mind for me, I deserve all the crap she's gonna lay on me in the future…where she's decided what I should do, think, say, be and become.
How about let the brother (or sister) decide for themselves….no pressure…& see where the relationship moves to "organically"!!!
Just an alternative point of view!
Good luck with that ultimatum route!!
I truly know and want you, the AUTHOR, to know, that Your article is WONDERFUL! There is not much more to say, even for an intelligent woman like myself. I know that what you described is correct! We as loving women -even when we are very successful professionally let often men still decide what happens in our partnership.
I for myself, I have to admit, that I have made the mistake, even being in a position of power in my professional life, being a well known international artist with my paintings in major art collections worldwide and being admired as such, to change my "normal" behavior in my daily life as a professional for a man, whom I considered a probably partner…. I need to make changes and THANK YOU VERY MUCH for this article! Lilo
Wow! This is so very true. But I do have a question for all. Im 20 now and I have been with this guy on and off since I was 18. My college life I have either been with him or on one of our breaks with my mind on him. I was his first girlfriend the first girl he brought to meet his family and I think that got to me. I want to spend time, love, and be his bestfriend but I feel all the drama is getting old. I mean he does and goes everywhere he wants to go but when I want him to come by or go out there is always an excuse.
He is in school and is not working but he makes his way to the gyms for work-outs so he could come spend time with me. The first year was perfect I must say he would come and hang and did even have to ask him to do anything he did all the good on his own. Thought I had a keeper.=)
I want to leave but I dont, I guess Im confused or scared to lose my friend.I say white he says black. I have always thought that if he does not cheat I can stay and stick with him. But im starting to see Im young and this may be pointless. I have other things that are more important school, and just living a happy life.
If I didnt want to spend time with him I think we would be fine. But I want what I want. Plus he is very closed in as far as telling me whats going on in his life, like whats getting to him.
So my question is how should I leave and never go back???
sn: I didnt use to be this way it was easy for me to end a relationship, but now that Im order I guess I want something like the real thing and with the real thing there will be hard times.. But what is meant will be…
Good Morning Guys,
One thing I find that women don't address IS Divorce and how it affects the Man… As a hopeless romantic… I always look forward to marriage… Or a Long-Term Commitment… But as a man in Western Society their is little to no benefit being a husband in the event the marriage goes south… But a woman has EVERYTHING to gain, house, kids, alimony… & basically half my sh*t…
So in ADDITION to what WIM was talking about in the above post, there is no benefit for a man to get married in Western Society with these current laws… It basically encourages BAD BEHAVIOR IN WOMEN (70% of divorce are initiated by the woman)
So in conclusion, I don't have a problem giving you a wedding ring & having a dream wedding… I'm just not signing a marriage certificate binding Me, you & the state we are married in…
22 Year Old, Single Black Male, from NYC
As heartwrenching & difficult as it is… Women need to be prepared for the break-up in the case that this man doesn't commit… When you are in that situation… Before then, you need to pick the right guy & effectively & confidently state where you want this relationship to go… And stick to your guns…
i agree! know what you want and know what you deserve!
So, a man will never commit to a ho is what you're saying and an ultimatum from a ho doesn't matter. How does someone with self-respect handle a man who's given the decision to commit?
I read your article & it confirms what I knew already. However, being severely emotional about a person that I love, I broke the rule of not doing what I said: I made a very strong statement that I didn't want anymore contact, but I have reached out to him since missing him. How do I regain my footing?
I have heard the man/woman blame game go on for sometime now. However, I think we are discussing the guys who intentionally deceive women when the question is asked, what are your intentions? It seems cruel that a man would give someone false hope without the intent of following through.
it is very hard to commit to the loser low life women that are out there today, compared to years ago when they were certainly much more better educated.
Great article…I agree totally
why men won't commit?
1) laws against men
2) women are not marriage material too, they can't cook, keep home cozy, and so on, they are selfish, carrier minded empty souls who wander in wonderland jumping the alpha cocks carousel until they became old enought to listen the maternity bell, but they realize that they are too old to be actractive for any men.
3) marriage is women business.period.
4) exclusive sex and emotional commitment aren't in the women dictionary anymore
5) they pursue their goals rather than build a future together
6) many women are more expensive than a cheap hooker.
7) the "entitled princess" behaviours way of live keeps good men to a safe distance.
8) the State welfare is the new daddy-care, no more need of a man to be independent and secure.
9) women cost money, from the first drink to the price of a condom or two, and a lot more if you marry one of them and find a divorce right behind the corner so i dare any men to start a relationship with one of them nowadays!
..and much more you may find in your local divorce attorney office's!
Great post. I'm reading the responses and surprised that most women aren't aware/putting in to action what you have mentioned. It'll save you a lot of time/heartbreak and drama. Im only 23 years old, but have known this since I was an adult. I believe relationships/relations should only be pursued with people who have the same common goal (commitment, marriage.) It behooves me that may women would pursue a man who doesn't want what they want and expect miraculous results………keep writing & i'll keep reading your posts!
As you mentioned…..common sense aint so common!!