Home Dating & Relationships Rules of Engagement Chivalry is Alive, But Accountability is Dying.

Chivalry is Alive, But Accountability is Dying.

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Chivalry isn't black and white anymore.

I was on Twitter yesterday doing what I normally do when Paul Brunson, the Modern Day Matchmaker, posted a question about chivalry. He cited a Yahoo/Maxim survey which stated that 55% of the women that participated didn’t believe chivalry was important. He asked what people thought and you can imagine what it turned into from there. The discussion ranged from Caribbean and African men being more chivalrous to Black men letting doors swing and hit ugly women. I looked up the definition of chivalry for deep-voiced giggles on dictionary.com and found the following:

–noun, plural -ries for 6.

  1. the sum of the ideal qualifications of a knight, including courtesy, generosity, valor, and dexterity in arms.
  2. the rules and customs of medieval knighthood.
  3. the medieval system or institution of knighthood.
  4. a group of knights.

It’s interesting how the definition of a word changes over time. Chivalry is no exception. No where in there did it say anything about knights slaying dragons and walking across the mote before a dinner of boar meat and foot wine, or kneeling over so that a woman can step onto their back and up onto the horse. You also didn’t see anything about holding or opening doors.The only definition that seemed applicable today was the first one, which mentioned courtesy and generosity; 2 words that aren’t exclusive to either gender.



I started thinking about chivalry in the context of my own life. Thoughts of how my parents raised me linearly ran through my mind. Both my mother and my father taught me a great deal about how to treat women. Sh*t, they taught me a great deal about how to treat people in general. The back of my head still has an imprint from letting that door hit that woman with the shopping bags because I was trying to get to the video game section of some entertainment store.

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I’d be lying to you if I said I didn’t spend a significant amount of time talking to my father specifically about women. He was old school. So you can imagine the wavy advice he gave me. Dad never spoke specifically of chivalry. Honestly, I learned a lot more from him about how to avoid getting a pot of boiling water thrown on me while I was sleeping and why condoms will increase my income. But with the tidbits on gamesmanship and avoidance all things scorching, including STDs, he taught me about respect and generosity without being taken advantage of by someone.

Regardless, I’d say I’ve turned out well coming from my 2-parent home, a catholic middle school, and a military high school. Even with that foundation, there are some things that I didn’t learn until later in life when it came to the treatment of women. For example, it wasn’t until about a year ago that I learned a man is supposed to walk on the outside. My thought was that if I walked on the inside, I’d keep her out of the way of people walking in the opposite direction. It was better for me to get bumped and nudged than her, the one I was supposed to be protecting.

It was less than a year ago that I learned I’m supposed to be the bodyguard of a group of women I’m with regardless of if other men are there and how well I know any of the parties. It didn’t seem like a big deal until I got dropped off by a car full of women in the middle of a Harlem street while intoxicated because I didn’t step in to stop a developing fight. I was more concerned with flying Heineken bottles and how I’d explain court appearances to my boss if I got involved with something that didn’t concern me. Little did I wonder what would happen if one of the women accidentally got hit. Fortunately that wasn’t the case. That would have been an awful look. I know.

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My dad didn’t teach me how to handle these examples specifically. I learned from talking to people about why that girl used to get so irritated with me while we were walking, and why those chicks were so furious about me going outside rather than getting caught up in a potentially violent situation. More simply put, both men and women schooled me. I have no problem admitting it.

The issue with some of these discussions echoes that of posts I’ve written previously. Many of you know how I feel about the “It’s a man’s job” and “Men should know” arguments. If you don’t, you can read here, here, or here. I mention this because I sent a message out on Twitter saying women should tell men the deal when it comes to chivalry if it’s important to them.

Some folks didn’t agree as expected. One person chimed in that teaching these lessons was the responsibility of fathers, brothers, uncles, and so on. I cosigned, but wasn’t going to open the can of worms on male absenteeism. With that so often being the case though, why shouldn’t a woman raise her children to understand chivalry from the perspective of someone that should expect it? If a woman values these little deeds or wants to return to the days of yore, what’s wrong with telling a man the type of treatment she expects upfront? If he chooses to walk, then let him take his sword elsewhere. He wasn’t the right knight for you anyway…unless you were just looking to be pleasurably impaled.

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Chivalry isn’t dead. I just don’t think we truly know what it is anymore. The state of Accountability, on the other hand, has suffered more casualties than I’d care to disclose. I don’t think I need any stats to back that up.

What do you think overall? What are your expectations when it comes to chivalry? Is it a cultural thing? Are men really running around letting doors hit chicks? Is that even about chivalry? Also, is there a version of chivalry that describes what is supposed to be expected of women? I’m curious.

Carrying Random Grocery Bags Like It’s My Job,

Comment(134)

  1. *stands and applauds* this was a great post Slim!

    Honestly, i didn't know a man was supposed to stand on the outside of the sidewalk until a few months ago when i was pushed to the inside by a friend of mine walking on the street!

    I wouldn't expect anyone to interject on a fight because they may get hurt, i think that's what bouncers and police officers are for.

    I agree with you, i don't think chivalry is dead but accountability is dying a tragic death.

    Again, great post Slim!

  2. Good post- I think your tweet was enough. If you want something done, ladies you have to speak up and give a friendly reminder, keyword friendly. Just makes me think it isn't dead yet just needs to a friendly boost.

    "One person chimed in that teaching these lessons was the responsibility of fathers, brothers, uncles, and so on." So over the parenting excuse. Life skills like motor skills are taught but just doing and observing. There's a point when we have to stop blaming the parents and community for everything. You see, you do. But I guess if you don't see, that's where the problem comes from??

  3. I'm gonna put it out there: I put this ALL on women. If a man does something you don't like, then it's on you to communicate your displeasure. You can't blame us for not acting right and perpetuating the cycle of "no good men" if you are not communicating and enforcing your standards (for those women who still have them).

    1. "If a man does something you don’t like, then it’s on you to communicate your displeasure." Which dudes equate as NAGGING. Ok, maybe not you but most:-)

      1. Oh… And nagging is the art of manipulation by irritation. Just like there are things a man needs to say to his woman and SHOULD say to his woman about his perspective of his needs and of him and his woman, there are things a woman needs to say to her man and SHOULD say to her man about her perspective of her needs and of her and her man. That's an example of common courtesy (MUTUAL chilvalry)–one talking WITH the other (listening TO the other while being listened to BY the other) instead of talking AT the other (belittling the other as less than a person with individuality and with feelings).

    2. "…If a man does something [a woman doesn't] like, then it’s on [the woman] to communicate [her] displeasure…." I feel you there to a point. Until you said "…[a woman] can’t blame us for not acting right…" There are times that a man will do the right thing, and the woman won't like him doing the right thing. An example? Making the "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" stance, i.e., COMMON COURTESY… If a woman feels entitled to voice her displeasure, that automatically means that the man is entitled to voice his displeasure as well… If one does, then both do… Don't start none, won't be none (and that goes for both positive AND negative)… To me, that ensures accountability of one to the other concerning the relationship between them, BUT both the man and the woman must be on a certain level of emotional maturity for application of such a principle. Women have been saying “there are no good men” since there were more than one man. Even women know not to listen to everything that comes out their girlfriends' mouth, man.

  4. i got a chance to take part in the conversation yesterday/today and i agreed with most of what people had to say as well as this post.

    one tweet that rubbed me the wrong way was when some dude was like he's not chivalrous to women who didn't deserve it. my first issue with that is how do you determine if a woman deserves or not. second, i think chivalry is something that you should practice regardless of how the person reacts. you should do things to get props or kudos. chivalry is more about your character. i'd go even a step further and say that chivalry doesn't even have to involve women. i hold doors for anyone.

    i thought the cultural thing wasn't a comparison but just people saying that african and indonesian men were just chivalrous period. either way i don't think its a cultural thing but a learned trait is ingrained in who you are.

    1. I took issue with the "non-deserving woman" comment as well and said as much. The person replied to me something along the lines of a God-fearing, churchgoing woman commanding chivalry in a different way than a promiscuous, club going woman. That comment only made it worse.

  5. Great post!

    Thank God for my father telling me what I should expect from a man in terms of chilvary!

    And I have no problem whispering it in his ear. Or sending him a cute texts with smiley faces and heart faces just to make him aware. How else is he going to know.

    I recently had to inform a young man he should be the last to exit the elevator when there are women on it. I gave him a quick psssst. He thought I was getting my cougar on, lol! . But I t was a quick fyi. He thanked me, sincerely.

    Smooches,

    L to the J

    1. This is so true.. I cringe whenever I see a man rush off the elevator before women or not give up his seat when a women is standing next to him on public transportation… It does speak to how they were brought up as well as how they think of women if they know these things and don't act accordingly… I will admit that I need to better communicate this to some men who are not trying to be harmful, but are just not aware and do not know any better. It's sad that I know a lot of them, too.

      1. I'd readily give up my seat for any pregnant woman and or any elderly person, man or woman. However, giving up my seat for a young broad my age {well, I have most times}, you must really look deserving of that privilege. Eg, if a lady were on high heels and displayed a disdainfully proud demeanor, I'd let her stand and enjoy towering above shorter people.

        1. Most times just the simple act offering is enough..shows that you are considerate 😉

          I think most women will decline if she doesn't think or feel like she needs to sit down. But that proves my point right there .. most women can open their own doors and pull out their own seat and stand on the train/bus because our legs are not broken. But the consideration a man shows towards a women regardless of her circumstance is what shows his true character.

    2. I love this response.

      My mother was talking about that with some of her friends the other day while I was listening in.

      They mentioned it more so in relation to the fact that one of them had told a young man he looked more handsome with his pants pulled up and that caused his friends to adjust their attire as well, but I think the same principle applies.

      Sometimes it doesn't have to be a full out ad campaign, but a simple PSA.

      I'm a firm believer in telling someone something and then letting them do what they will with the information.

      If you were to tell the young man about the elevator tidbit and then see him a week later and he repeated the same actions, then oh well.

      But like you said, if he genuinely didn't know, what's the harm in helping?

      Slim is on to something. If we were to all hold each other accountable in the little things, it would make a HUGE difference in the way we view and treat each other these days.

  6. Not that I can't hold my own (because I can), I feel slightly safer when I roll with my homies.I just know that if something goes down (random dude gets fresh, gas station attendant doesn't want to co-operate when the pump takes my money but there's no gas, etc.), my big male friends have my back. And I don't have to teach them–they know instinctually that they should watch out for the lady they have in their presence. Not saying that they or any other man should lay down jackets over puddles or what not, but random acts of chivalry (whatever your interpretation is) never hurt anyone.

    Just yesterday on my way to work: I'm getting off a dollar cab (Brooklyn!) and the man in front of me hops out and extends his hand to me, to help me get off safely. I was taken back a little, but I took his hand, smiled and said thank you. It kinda made my morning. =)

    I just hope he didn't think I was old or pregnant, lol. I'm neither.

  7. I never really experienced full on chivalry until I met my ex. At first it was very strange, and admittedly it took me a while to get used to it.

    He insisted on opening doors (for everyone), helping me into the car, pulling out my chair for me to sit, walking on the outside (or against oncoming traffic if we were crossing the street). It was hardwired for him though, definitely a part of his (southern) upbringing.

    I always grumble about how people are so disconnected, since a smile seems to warrant a pause as people question your intentions. He reminded me that those simple things weren't a chore, but a way to show he was willing to look out for me.

    It was the first thing I noticed as absent on my first date after that relationship ended. It's something I keep an eye out for, and with the right guy I'd probably bring it up if he didn't.. but it's an interesting sort of gauge for how a man looks at and considers others.

  8. I don't think some men or women understand chivalry. I don't think some men understand what it means to be a gentleman. Just like some women don't understand what it means to be a lady.

    Manners is a toss up. Like anything and everything should be taught.

    Manners = Home Training

    I don't think it is cultural … I have held the door for men and women. Women and men (of all backgrounds) at some point have held the door for me. Just today a white man held the door open for me to exit with a big smile. I told him thank you. So I would say he was well mannered and being a gentleman.

    If you encounter someone who does not possess manners is it your job to teach them? I feel like that is something taught to you as you grow up. I taught my son manners and he is a complete gentleman. He is courteous to everyone.

    I don't know if it is my job to be teaching something your parents should have taught you already.

    1. *high five* to your post:-)))))

      Unfortunately, we both know most people dont learn a whole lotta things they should've grown up. Lol.

    2. I agree with your point about manners and home training, and I know I often say some folks have no home training in jest (and sincerely mean it too at times) but we have to realize everyone is just not raised the same. that is why I say its important to hold people you care about accountable and let them know how you want to be treated–for men and women.

  9. I believe in chivalry.

    I dont worry myself over every small detail because I understand that we all grew up in different enviroments, but the general attitude of kindness, respect, and protection should be there.

    As a woman, I am constantly learning what to expect, as men are equally learning what behavior is appropriate. I was dating a guy who constantly would arrange us so he was walking on the outside of the curb. Where I'm from, this gesture isnt common. However, now I'm sure to walk on the inside of the curb. Lesson learned.

    But then again, I dont understand the whole open up the car door for me thing. The same guy did this for me once and I'm sure I looked terribly awkward. He isnt my butler. Lol. So I sometimes wonder what its like for men who ARE chivalrous towards women who gratefully but hesitantly recieve it.

    We should all teach each other. Chivalry shouldnt be a set of rules/guidelines but a sincere kindness with which we treat EACH OTHER.

    Yes, men should be chivalrous but where is the female chivalry???

    FEMALE CHIVALRY (for bishes that dont know)

    Should include but not be limited to:

    -Serve his plate!!! (neatly, promptly, before you serve your own, with napkin and all required utensils, and ask him what he would like to drink)

    -Pick the damn plate back up within a reasonable amount of time after he finishes, whether you're done or not. (You'll live, trust me) Does he let YOU get the door because he's walking behing you or does he speed up a little to open it when he sees it coming? #thinkaboutit.

    -Dont let him iron in front of you. It's like him watching you fix the toilet, or shovel. UNLESS he absolutely insists because he likes it a certain way.

    AND FOR THE FINALE…

    (suspense builds)

    Does anyone follow the washcloth rule anymore??????? I feel like this has gone completely out of style and neglected by men AND women. Smh. WTF?

    -Say things like "Thank you for (insert kind or considerate act)." if he's done something you appreciate.

    1. "-Say things like “Thank you for (insert kind or considerate act).” if he’s done something you appreciate."

      Sorry this was at the top of the list. dont know how it ended up at the bottom of the comment. *shrugs* The finale is only the washcloth thing…

    2. I could not agree with you more regarding women being chivalrous… Its not about "bowing down" or anything of that sort…

      Not that your supposed to tit-fot-tat with anyone but… you can't expect him to just do something when you won't do the same back…

    3. I 100% agree with your comment on female chivalry.

      My father is ALWAYS the first one served at the dinner table in my parent's house. Even if he's not home, his portion is taken out first and placed in a tupperware container for him to eat later. My mother humbly and gladly does the serving and she's the most independent woman I know. Serving her man doesn't make her feel any less of a woman. It's part of her natural courtesy to her husband.

      Therefore, I've grown up with this same principle. Any time I cook for a man I'm dating or we're at some type of house event where you have to get your own food, I will get his plate for him. If my dad is there and my guy and I are in a committed relationship, I'll even serve him before my dad. But if we're just dating and my mom isn't around to serve my dad, he'll have to settle for second. (He can't be mad at me for that right? Lol!)

      To me chivalry is a give and take. It should be given in mutual respect for each other.

  10. Yeah,well,in an ideal world,yeah. But sometimes,your parents don't. Doesn't always work like that. In fact nowadays,a lot of the time,it doesn't work like that. Again,can of worms on absent parents. Slim,I'm curious,condoms will increase your income? Tell. 🙂 erm,is chivalry dead. Depends on what you believe it to be,and how willing you are to resurrect it in whatever relationships-whether friendships or f*buddies-you have. It's not dependent on race,but sometimes,location. 'Chivalrous men' are attractive to me though. Sometimes I feel like it's taking away from the whole independent woman thing,but truth be told,there's a reason men are men and women are women. *shrug*

  11. Erm. I'm not sure about the rules of female chivalry. What's the washcloth rule? Serve his plate,um. Again,I think it depends on what you perceive as chivalry. My man always serves me,unless he's at my house,in which case I serve him.

  12. I don't really care what it's called. I don't need any of it..but, it is nice when it happens…it makes a woman feel like she's special…It's shows manners and its a kindness.

    I am not going to be up in arms if you don't walk on the outside, or you don't pull my chair, or open the door, but it's just a small way for a man to let a woman knows that he is thinking of her and being kind. You should do the same with strangers as well as women you know. It won't kill you. I hold the door for men and and women…I bring my man a hot rag, food, etc…I do the things that make him smile. It's just about being kind.

    I think the terminology is dead..but, the acts themselves are still very relevant and have changed with the times…as with anything.

    Good post.

  13. I did want to say this Slim..I did feel some type of way about you that you didn't intervene in that fight with the group of ladies….In my mind, I know it was probably a smart move..but, in my heart it feels like a punk out move. It's just not a good look. Yes, you got away unscathed and all of that..but, I probably would've dropped you at home..but, I feel where they were coming from. You just rolled out on them..would you have rolled out if it involved one of your homeboys or a group of dudes? You say you barely knew them..but, you knew them well enough to catch a ride after the fight was over? You would've been dropped off at the docks. LOL j/k.

    1. "You just rolled out on them..would you have rolled out if it involved one of your homeboys or a group of dudes? You say you barely knew them..but, you knew them well enough to catch a ride after the fight was over? "

      Since 1 or more of these chicks may read the site, I can't say too much. However…

      My biggest mistake was getting into a car with people I didn't really know in the first place from where we initially came from (another party). I'll never do that again regardless of if the folks are going in the direction I live in.

      The point of this was that I learned a lesson. Not whether my actions at the time were wrong. But honestly, I'd rather have a job than a trip to a hospital because I got jumped over some chicks and dude I barely knew.

      1. I get it Slim. Like i said, my head knows you did the smart thing. It's just I'm a woman, and my perspective on this may be slightly skewed. I'm just putting myself in the position of the ladies..and I'm thinking of how I would have felt about it.

        But, the important thing is you did learn a valuable lesson from it.

        1. T I gotta say, Slims only mistake was gettin in that car. If I don't know chicks I'm NOT getting into their battles. You gotta have that Spider sense on point.

          Example: I went to go play basketball with my sisters bf at the time. We were cool but that wasnt my peoples like that. I saw my peoples at the park and we hooped for a few. This dude (sis bf) got angry at something and tried to step to a dude. I basically beseeched for his life so these ddues didn't pound him out (imagine an ENTIRE PARK vs 1 dude). Dude ended up gettin his jaw tapped, and I took him home.

          2 weeks later, the SAME dude that he had an issue with, I saw in a club!! Imagine if I wouldve fought him how my sisters mans stupidity, especially since I was alone. I couldve been in a bad position. Imagine even still if he felt a way about me intervening! Iw as alone and could've got GOT!

          Moral of the story: Curiosity kills cats and so do ignant nikkas who see you down the road. smh

    2. Fighting other people's' battles is a NO. We live in a day and age where gun violence involving altercations at clubs is pretty damn common.

      I'm not catching a bullet for my grandma, let alone some random drunk chicks in a party.

  14. "With that so often being the case though, why shouldn’t a woman raise her children to understand chivalry from the perspective of someone that should expect it?"

    The link between chivalry and accountability is a strong one. For that reason, the above logic doesn't exactly work. If a woman chose to lay down with a man who didn't respect her or his sperm enough to play an integral part in the child's life, what makes you (anyone) think she expects chivalry and would make it one of the things she teaches her kids?? She chose to lay with a man who wouldn't hold himself accountable so how do we expect her to raise children to have traits she didn't value enough so that she waited to pair with a man who has them?

    So many factors seem to play a part in this discussion. As said on Twitter, looks help increase the chances that a woman gets certain treatment. How she was raised (how her brothers, fathers, uncles treat women) goes a long way in setting her expectations.

  15. A woman teaches a man how to treat them. As I've gotten older, I have no issues verbalizing what's acceptable or not acceptable to me. The man can either conform or not and then it's my choice to either deal with him or not.

    I don't know if it's a region thing or not. Being in the south, I can say that for the most part, chilvary isn't dead. Stagnant at times, but not dead.

  16. the reason the chivalry topic keeps getting rehashed is because there's virtually no convos about what women should do in return for chivalry. Men generally are exhausted with the idea that we should treat women in a certain manner, yet how women treat men is not nearly emphasized as much. It gets tired, and its messing up the dating game.

    1. Rick,

      What is a woman to do other than show her gratitude? I consistently teach my daughter to show thanks when her fathers does something for her. She is two! I know that is important, but is there anything else a woman could do to show appreciation?

      My son is very aware of how women are to be treated because his mother makes this very clear with examples. I don't want any woman talking about my son is rude or wack.

    2. *stomps on stage* Hold up! Didn't Beyonce nem already sing about this and wrap their legs around men seated on stage while doing it. *sings Cater 2 U in z-flat while walking off stage*

  17. Good post Slimuel.

    There is a certain level of chivalry I expect in relationships and to date *thinking back* I don't remember me having a problem receiving it. I really don't like rude people in general… so those who I date tend to be extremely courteous. I also think that the way I carry myself has something to do with the chivalry I receive. I'm not into giving off this 'tough-woman-miss-independent-i-eat-men-for-breakfast' kinda vibe. I'm a woman – I'm soft, dainty, gentle… & think being viewed as such, men instinctually know it is their responsibility to conduct 'knightly behavior' to the best of their knowledge and/or ability when with me.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Oh… and I just learned about the sidewalk thing too. We'ont have sidewalks where I live, lol.

  18. Phuck chivalry.

    I see this come up all the time and let me fill you all in.

    I lived with my father, so of course, I was taught " a few things" about how to treat women but not everything. Chivalry never got mentioned. Nope…I can't recall any conversation where my father broke down to me anything about it. However, Pops did mention common courtesy for the next person. That involves a certain level of politeness, but none of that extra stuff.

    The other men who helped shape me didn't either. Maybe because…hmmm…I don't know…I lived in D.C. during the 80s/90s and nobody was laying down 8 ball jackets so that Booshawnta can get on the bus without getting her Reebok Princesses wet. Holding a door? Okay, that's for anyone. Greeting someone and saying hello or acknowledging them? Chalk it up to courtesy. Now if i liked a woman, showing her or giving small tokens of affection were along the lines of romanticism, but eff chivalry.

    Again…can't have all the conveniences of modern living while holding on to outdated ideals of yesteryear. I'll hold the door for you, but I better hear a "thank you" with ya'll rude entitled azzes.

    1. son i grew up in dc as well in the 80s/90s and i still saw acts of kindness and chivalry.

      "Again…can’t have all the conveniences of modern living while holding on to outdated ideals of yesteryear. I’ll hold the door for you, but I better hear a “thank you” with ya’ll rude entitled azzes"

      in situations like this when i hold a door for someone and they don't say thank you i still say "you're welcome". i don't say it with an attitude or with harsh intent. saying "you're welcome" pleasantly lets them know in situations like that they are expected to say thank you.

      1. The acts of kindness and chivalry were no means the fairy tale versions some folks speak of. I was well into my teens before someone mentioned the whole walking on whatever side of the street thing, but that was because their grandmother probably mentioned it. Same with the opening the car door thing. My mother didn't mention it. Father didn't either. I guess with the invention of power door locks that got "outdated." But apparently there are all sorts of Don Juan's out here so I digress.

  19. I find this entire conversation very interesting. I know that I have taught my sons common courtesy, holding doors, opening a car door for a woman, carrying bags and groceries etc. but they still have a strong sense of entitlement and I think that supersedes basic rules for a great many young people these days.

    What I mean is that they turn it on and off at will. (eg: I'll hold the door for Mommy and bring in the groceries if I'm not doing anything but if I'm in the middle of X-box COD she better wait til this game is over…and it could take a while…hope she doesn't start tripping…but hol up…"ma did you buy grapes?").

    I learned that the man should walk on the outside when I was in middle school and used to walk with my bf.

    Sometimes when my husband is driving he won't even unlock the door to the Range until I tap on the window…he's too busy checking his dash out…just RUDE. Matter of fact, I don't think he's ever held a car door open for me even once…but he will walk on the outside and hold a door open — MOST of the time.

    I think at this point in time women take what they can get — it's really exhausting trying to "train people up" and I do give back…cook, serve plates etc. It is just that everything is so half assed these days…chivalry isn't dead but it's on life support.

  20. Yes that's what it boils down to. Do the person have manners? Even as a woman, if you're out and see someone with their hands full, regardless if the person is male or female, the thing to do is hold the door open for them.

    It's called common courtesy.

    Courtesy is dead.

  21. I remember asking on facebook who told men chivalry was dead….ooo-wee the comments I received! There are some bitter dudes and women on fb….there are some that still believe in it.

    "…55% of the women that participated didn’t believe chivalry was important." Wow, I cant believe it since Im all for chivarly. I cant stand to see when men (even women) just let common courtesy fall by the wayside. smh.

  22. Good Post Slim.

    I agree that some people dont know chivalry, but its moreso that these simple acts aren't taught or emphasized as much in 2011 feel me?

    That's all from me

    1. Again blame goes to the parents. I have 2 boys (9 & 11). They have been taught to do simple things such as opening doors for ladies or holding the door so it doesnt hit the next person in the face or just saying 'please' and 'thank you'.

  23. Great Post Slim. In high school, all of the guys that I dated walked on the outside. If my friends and I were walking with a group of guys and they found themselves on the inside, they would stop, and we would switch. This is similar to having your lady walk behind you, or in front, instead of beside you.

  24. Here's what i've learned, you can tell a lot about the type of women a man deals with based on the way he talks about how he deals with them. The same with women. One of the worst things that a woman can let on is to let you know that she's never been treated with a certain level of respect while dating.

    Desperation in dating leads to a lack of chivalry and accountability. I can't speak on it for women, but as it pertains to men. I'll give you a perfect example;

    Some women don't know how to talk to men. They snap at them, they say things like "You ain't my father" and "you must have me for another b*tch". Those women do those types of things because no man put her in her place, or should I say, put her on notice. A lot of times men just bounce from the situation and when asked why, they'll say it just didn't work out. Holding people accountable means that you say, "Look, the reason why we are not talking is because you don't know how to talk to nobody. I'm not dealing with someone like that, so I wish you the best." At least you debrief that woman on her ways and why they aren't compatible. Granted a lot of the times people don't hold people accountable is because of an assessment of their goals in a situation. A dude will deal with a woman with no tact, manners or poise only because they want to hit that. That's the type of malfeasance that should not be tolerated.

    There's a comparison for women here, and I hope that some ladies get it.

    1. I understand not wanting to train a grown person how to treat you, but is it not unfair and just dead wrong to not at least give a person a chance to change?

      For the woman that snaps, you knew she snapped and saw this in her, yet you stayed around to hit? Why not just tell her before you are ready to leave that you don't appreciate being talked down too?

      It is wrong to hold someone accountable for something you never gave them a chance to work on.

      There are going to always be things your SO will do that will rub you the wrong way, and yes it is easier to just leave. How much bs does your SO have to deal with…

      Brothers stay expecting perfection when you are too imperfect!

      1. @Beef –

        I'm a two strikes person, but keep in mind there are some signs that should tell you early on that you will not be able to come to an amicable relationship with a person.

        As to your comment, please don't get it twisted, I did not say I stayed around to hit it, you inferred that. Stop doing that. And yes, the first time she snapped at me, I probably responded as I normally do to everyone, "There are ways that we will and will not communicate." She would be put on notification, but after another offense, regardless if, "that's just how she is" it's a wrap.

    2. “Look, the reason why we are not talking is because you don’t know how to talk to nobody. I’m not dealing with someone like that, so I wish you the best.”

      if a guy said that to me it would totally crack my face, and I would feel like sh*t. seriously. but if it needs to be said, it needs to be said. I've even checked my own homegirls like "for real, you don't know how to talk to people, and you are hella rude. you were raised better than that" sometimes people need reminders, from men and/or women.

    3. "A lot of times men just bounce from the situation and when asked why, they’ll say it just didn’t work out. Holding people accountable means that you say, “Look, the reason why we are not talking is because you don’t know how to talk to nobody. I’m not dealing with someone like that, so I wish you the best.” At least you debrief that woman on her ways and why they aren’t compatible."

      (flash back to recent blog about women handling the truth)

      I am soooo riding this spaceship with ya bruh. Although many preach a "drama free zone" many don't exercise it withing themselves. When there is a threat to my inner peace – three options…fight, freeze, or flight. I won't fight back, because that's a revenge game that I'm not trying to lose, and freezing lol…well it doesn't get you far. It would be more convenient for me to leave her to walk the path she was on before she met me.

      Now I will agree with BB on the notion of granting an opportunity for correction because sometimes emotional issues go unresolved because no one took the time to investigate. However, communication is always stressed in relationships. If a chica has to tell me that I'm angry all of the time, yet doesn't ask me why…well…looks communication was half massed and this RELATION-ship doesnt seem to be moving towards the horizon, but rather towards to the storm. And this is the 10th one this week.

      John loves his peace….and nagging because I refuse to treat you like a princess, when I'm looking to treat you like a queen, is unhealthy to my peace. (applauds Dr J)

  25. @Beef Bacon

    "My son is very aware of how women are to be treated because his mother makes this very clear with examples. "

    Is your daughter just as aware of how men are to be treated? Do you emphasize the treatment of men to your daughter to the same extent that you emphasize women's treatment to your son?

    Its a simple yes or no.

  26. Interesting post, I said as much on Twitter when I saw the link but apparently I missed the side convo so I cant speak on the situation with the fight. I will say I would have probably walked away too because I'm a grown ass man and there is very little I'll fight about, especially if it doesnt directly concern me. Maybe I'm a punk. I'll be a punk with a job and not in jail so life goes on…

    I am, however, shocked by the 55% of women saying chivalry doesnt matter. That seems high, especially given the number of 'chivalry' conversations that happen all over the Internet on what seems like a daily basis. Maybe it's because Maxim is geared towards younger women?

    I did get into a "debate" with @boissuq about if a man should give a healthy able bodied woman his seat as part of this chivalrous movement, which for the record I'm against. We didn't see eye to eye on that. I consider myself chivalrous but at the same time there are certain things I won't do. I think chivalry, like most things, is a matter of perspective. e.g. for some women, opening a door is sufficient whereas other women may expect you to open doors, car doors, pull out seats, carry bags, [see other examples from other comments above], etc. FTR, I'm not saying any of these are bad expectations.

    What I think is strange and often lost during these conversations about "chivalry" is that a lot of women seem to think chivalry is instinctive rather than taught or learned. Like RedLady821 said above, she doesnt want to "train people up." That's fine but I think if that's the case women in general (not RedLady specifically) need to realize they're going to get what they accept. If you never even correct or let a man know what you like I dont understand how you can get upset that he doesn't do it. It goes back to the whole psychic mind reader ability a lot of women seem to think men are equipped with from birth. lol

    Anyway that's my 5 cents.

    1. "I did get into a “debate” with @boissuq about if a man should give a healthy able bodied woman his seat as part of this chivalrous movement, which for the record I’m against."

      if you don't mind me asking why are you against it?

      1. No particular reason. I just don't see the point. For example, I ride the train home from work after a 9 or 10 hour day. I'm tired like everyone else. If I see a perfectly healthy young woman standing beside me, chances are I'm not going to give up my seat. If I see an older woman I will. But am I going to give it up to a 18 – 25 year old?

        Doubt it. They'll survive.

        1. WIM: "If I see a perfectly healthy young woman standing beside me, chances are I’m not going to give up my seat. If I see an older woman I will. But am I going to give it up to a 18 – 25 year old?

          Doubt it. They’ll survive."

          I wouldn't. If there was an open seat, and a young lady and I got on the bus at the same time, I'd probably let her have it. But I'm not getting up for an able bodied 30-year old woman.

        2. Agreed @ Hugh. I'm not going to elbow a woman to get a seat. lol But if I'm already seated, welp. *blank stare*

          MadScientist: That's cool, we can agree to disagree. I respect that. Honestly, I think more women would agree with you than me anyway. But hey, it is what it is.

        3. And with that said, I've tried giving up my seat on a NYC subway to young women. It doesn't work…

          I can say there's a 0% chance that young lady will accept my offer to take my seat on a crowded train or bus.

          So I don't feel bad about not noticing them standing.

    2. Per usual WIM, prepare yourself to have no idea where i'm going…

      I read a stat the other day that said that 61% of people had tried "back-entry" methods to sexual activities. Then I read a stat that said 46% of women between ages 18-26 had tried it too. I sat there thinking, well, just about half have tried it. But the thing is, what does that mean? There's a lot of women who have tried it and DO NOT LIKE IT. There's a lot of women who won't even admit to have tried it, but they did.

      Same with stats like 55% of women saying chivalry doesn't matter. I bet some of those women don't speak up when they do get a chivalrous man, and in a discussion with the opposite sex, will fight tooth and nail to say that it does matter. And keep in mind, some of those women are just freaks, they're into anything, no wonder they don't need chivalry, they might also be the top who like to be called very bad names and disrespected during sex.

      1. Dr. J: LMAO You're right. I had no idea where you were going. I'm not even positive I'm sure where you ended. Anyway, THIS statement:

        "they might also be the top who like to be called very bad names and disrespected during s*x"

        I've had a few chicks like that, even thought about writing about it. Prob will eventually. Anyway, I've found it easier to "disrespect" women I don't respect. If that makes sense. It's hard to mentally find the cut-off between respecting and disrespecting, even if it's just a 'turn on' for her. This isn't an issue when it's a jump off but if it's a chick I'm feeling…..welp….she might mess around and accidentally move herself from "wife" to "jumpoff" in my head and it's hard to go backwards from that point. *shrugs* Maybe I'm the one with the issue(s)… O well, #futureblogpost.

  27. this is why we have women well into their 40's still clueless about what men want. Who/where/when do we emphasize to girls how to treat boys? Where's the long list of notions that women are taught from a young age of what they should do for men "just because" they are women?

    I CAN'T be the only one that sees the correlation to the problem here.

      1. Hence the problem……and the slowly but surely disappearance of chivalry.

        If a standard relationship between two people cant survive without reciprocity, why do people think a relationship between the sexes will be fruitful if one side has a laundry list of what to do, yet the other side only needs to show gratitude?

    1. The stereotypes seem to lean towards 'men protect' and 'women nurture' – neither of which are needed, but both are ideally appreciated. Sadly, the idea that you would actually do something for someone without being first concerned about what you're receiving seems to be uncommon.

      Chalk it up to people taking advantage of kindness or that it puts them at a disadvantage because they may feel they owe someone.

    2. I agree.

      Look at it like this though. Back in the day there was chivalry. Father taught sons how to treat women or they learned it from watching people in society. Little girls on the other hand were "taught" to be mothers and cooks from a young age (since BEFORE cabbage patch kids). The first toy of a female child is a toy BABY. Then there was the feminist movement. While the focus was on equal rights simultaneously within, women began to look at the indoctrination of motherhood on a little girl as an extension of the patriarchal structure to keep women helpless and dependent on men. At least that is what people thought. So that has died down… But what has remained, the idea of chivalry.

    3. Got into a debate with a fellow female grad student about fixing a man's plate. She gave the overly used argument of "Why do I have to be the one? He's perfectly capable, I go to work and make the same money — blah blah blah" …

      I have the same degree, we make the same money; but I don't have any qualms about fixing a plate of food for my man. Why? That act in no way minimizes my accomplishments — my degree is still valuable, my salary is still intact & growing, my accolades remain relevant. I haven't lost ANY power in simply showing the person that I proclaim to care about some attention and consideration. Well, my argument was dismissed because I was raised in "the south". *stink face*

      *Widespread Generalities Following*

      From the Disney princess epidemic (where we learned that a chivalrous prince is waiting to save us, just sit tight & be pretty) … to 'You can do better than I did' Mother/Daughter encouragement speech (which sometimes included the 'You don't need a man' sub-topic) … to Waiting to Exhale (which showed that as a woman no matter who/what you are/did, men will be pigs) … The key message seems to be that women are at a disadvantage, and we have to fight just to gain equal footing. We've turned how we treat the other gender into a power struggle. With that mindset, why would women (in general) take the time to consider reciprocity of a man's chivalrous acts? Add to this, that folks nowadays are less courteous and considerate … and you get 55% of women indicating that chivalry is no longer important, and men wondering why they should even bother with it.

  28. great post. I haven't read all the comments yet but I agree Accountability is important. I spoke on FB yesterday about how important it is to teach people how to treat you. it hurts nothing to let a man know this is how you require to be treated. it doesn't have to be snotty or even rude, but we are all here to learn from each other. lots of things I didn't learn until I was an adult and exposed to people from different backgrounds and lifestyles. nothing wrong with that at all…

    1. " it doesn’t have to be snotty or even rude, but we are all here to learn from each other."

      the thing is a lot of people are snotty and/or rude. that's where killing them with kindness comes into play.

  29. great post!

    i feel like chivalry is something that a woman shouldn't have to teach a man, but given the circumstances and personal histories and upbringings of different men, i don't think it's a necessarily terrible thing to let a man know when you expect something or to be treated a certain way, because men have NO problem telling us.

    i went out with someone once who opened doors, even my car door (every time) and let me out at the door when we were going places, etc… but he didn't walk on the outside of the street either. it annoyed me greatly. i explained to him why, but he still chose to walk on the inside (admittedly he forgot a few times, but eventually just stopped attempting to remember).

    i was torn because he was a very chivalrous guy in general but his refusal to make that small adjustment made me feel as though something was lacking (or just simply incompatible) in his personality. is it silly? probably so.

    anyhoo, while i think chivalry is a part of someone's character and upbringing and not necessarily cultural, i do notice that a man will definitely hold the door longer or go just a tad bit more out of his way to do something nice for an attractive person, even if he has no interest in "getting to know her."

  30. have you all heard about when dining out, a man is supposed to sit facing the door? I'm assuming to see if something is gonna "go down." I don't hear people talk about that one too much. I typically like to face the door because I am nosy, and like to see whats going on too but it was a guy that actually told me that one years ago…

    1. every time i've ever went to dinner the man insisted on facing the door. something about being snuck up on if danger arises. even at a business dinner, the two (white) men insisted on sitting facing the door. lol

      1. Oh Yes!

        I not too long ago found this out as to why this was always the case — I was always on the side closest to the wall and not the door.

    2. I never heard that one either Reecie! Makes sense…but I like to sit facing the door too…I think it was in American Gangster or X (definitely a Denzel flick) where he talks about sitting facing the door. The more I think about it…I believe it was X.

      1. The facing the door thing has nothing to do with chivalry and everything to do with security. I face the door because I want to see who is going in and out and also my possible escape route if sh*t hits the fan (I was a soldier…be prepared). Usually it's back to the backwall so that you get a full view of everyone in the dining room. But that's just me…

    3. The first (and as far as i can remember) only time i've heard of this, was in my copy of The Autobiography of Malcolm X…. Alex Haley noted that he (Malcolm) had the habit of sitting facing the door, and Malcolm explained it was so he knew who was coming in and out of the spot.

      i have no clue what this has to do with chivalry, though.

  31. Chivalry itself has nothing to do with men and women. It is orignally a code of conduct for Knights in medival times to act in public. A time where women were Objects to be adorned, not a seperate human being. Simply put, chivlvary undermines sexual equality.

    You can't be "equal" and expect "ladies first". These antiquated rules for the fairer sex expects one gender to be superior to the other.

    When doors were held for women and chairs pulled out a table, women were not able to speak freely at a table.

    When men walked on the outside (as to avoid a woman's outfit from being damaged by waste thrown in the street due to lack of sanitation) Women were expected to be housewives.

    As we pushed for equality and view each other as on the same playing field, the rules were left behind leaving men toask "how do women return the favor?"

    For Chivalry to be alive, equality has to not exist.

    1. For Chivalry to be alive, equality has to not exist.

      That's not exactly true. It seems that way since there's a overallocation of attention on "chivalry" verses how women in general should treat men. In relationships there's reciprocity. People (men) just aren't making much noise about how women could treat us in relationships. Mostly b/c we are constantly listening to them complain about what we aren't doing… or what someone else did to them (women).

      Also, since equality doesn't exist chivalry must be alive right? no…

      1. @MeteorMan,

        I agree in relationships that we have a balance of compromises.

        We are talking about regular interaction between men and women in the street, where some of these guidelines are in play.

        1. eff the random female on the street… I'm courteous and respectful to all walks of life but random women don't get extra because they have a vagina.

          The context has to be more than just passing by in the street. IF chivalry exists outside of family, friendship and courtship, then it should die if it's already isn't dead. #nukeem

          WHY? because there's too many people who think they are entitled to people going out their way -> peep this -> who don't even know them.

  32. Chivalry is the most SEXIST thing ever. I was on the bus saw a man holding an infant (baby under 1 years old), 3 bags of groceries on a crowded bus. Mind you that this man was barely holding on with one pinky! Not one woman nor man gave up their seat for him. If it were a woman I could only assume. Chivalry negates equality. I dont understand how any intelligent person could participate in such a demeaning thing towards one gender!

  33. Is it a cultural thing?

    I think so. I find that men that are not born here and/or stamped with the 100% authentic U.S.D.A. seal of approval tend to be more chivalrous. IMO

    Now with that being said on the whole I know chivalry isn't dead but sometimes it can come with a price tag. (i.e. I am walking a few steps behind an infant (a real cutie though) and he purposely waited for me to approach the door and proceeded to hold it open for me, I smiled and said thank you and KIM but by the time I got to the register to pay for my items I already knew his age, when he is graduating from high school, family history, etc. while asking repeatedly if he can call me) O__o.

    It would have been easier if I would have said "nah youngin I'm good, you could go in, I got this". *justsayin*

  34. Chivalry is way over-rated. For every woman I've opened a door for, I can name 20 that chimed.. "I could have done it myself". The same goes for literally racing around the car to open the door.. Only for the date to wait, wait, wait, wait "before opening it herself" 🙂 And I am a very Knightly Guy!!!… Now I see it as some women know how to accept chivalry and some don't.. I'm reminded of the woman in the movie that called it DAK -WHY! (wit her ignant a**..couldN't even pronouce the drink right) lol The way I see it… If you don't want the door slammed in your face.. you should have left home a little earlier! Other wise, it might be a plan for some of these sisters to get with the older women 'of culture' to peep how to accept a gentlmanly gesture…without thinking we are trying to get into their pants!!!.. Ladies, sometimes guys are just BEING NICE… OOPs Slim… My bad.. Some of these women want BAD BOYS with felony records… It is what it is… I'm not gonna lose sleep over it!!!! GREAT POST~~

  35. "…One person chimed in that teaching these lessons was the responsibility of fathers, brothers, uncles, and so on. I cosigned…" From the perspective of this single black male, I don't cosign–unless the expectation of responsibility of the older men in a family to mentor younger men in being chivalrous is EQUAL to the expectation of responsibility of the older WOMEN in a family to mentor younger WOMEN in being appreciative OF shown chivalry. Courtesy and generosity is not a cultural thing to me–they are a part of existence. But, the thing about existence, especially that of a single, chilvalrous black male, is that it is questioned often. I've let doors hit women–who either didn't accept my chivalrous nature, whether by choice or by ugly attitude. All I can do is to BE courteous; it's up to the woman to accept the gift of my BEING courteous. Whether a woman accepts me for me is irrelevant because I'm going to be me regardless. Ofcourse, there's a version of chivalry that describes what is supposed to be expected of women since mutual courtesy and generosity between a man and woman helps the relationship between man and woman flourish.

    1. "All I can do is to BE courteous; it’s up to the woman to accept the gift of my BEING courteous. Whether a woman accepts me for me is irrelevant because I’m going to be me regardless."

      Love that last line man. You've been on a streak in expressing some of my views without me having to type a finger.

      I believe that Chivlary is dead and it should remain buried with the culture that it was living with. However, common courtesy, respect, and other "subtle forms" of submission is natural, and as you noted, SL, embedded within us. Unless it's not. And in that case, if the woman truly needs that sort of treatment to feel "special" to the man she's with, and he lacks that conditioning….she should take the initiative to instill it. Love is an action verb too folks….and when someone doesn't know how to act…you teach em, respectfully and tactfully, GRANTED that the student is ready to learn.

      If I wanted my woman to give me a massage ever so often, and she lacks skill in this area, should I get emotional over her naivety? Or can I love "myself" (because thats why Im teaching her) enough to awaken her mystical powers and ASK her to exercise them on the lower and top portions of my back? Her and I may not even be together 5 months from now, but at least she's got some super powers to make her a force to be admired and appreciated by the next guy I pass her on to.

      1. "You’ve been on a streak in expressing some of my views without me having to type a finger. "

        Type a…finger….John? Are you serious? (smh and walks out)

        John: what?……

        ……(oh (smacks head)

      2. "…You’ve been on a streak in expressing some of my views without me having to type a finger…" (Japanese-style bow of respect) All I can do is kick truth as I see it and as I feel it. (shrug) If one feels me, he or she does. If one doesn't feel me, he or she doesn't…

  36. I do things because they are right. I work in a female dominated building where I have to walk either 3 flights up or 3 flights down to use a male public (not private) restroom. Since I have worked here I have often walked into the building loaded with boxes, or papers or whatever to see women walk past with no regard to my lack of "being able to open the door." Yet, I have held doors open for the opposite sex with no warm embrace but an attitude as if deserved. Its funny how every woman that has commented has associated the lack of chivalry with home training or training of a man but has said nothing about the home training of those wanting acts of chivalry. Yet chivalry is something that is never reciprocated outside of dating/ courting. Discussing this with my co-worker who is a female, I asked had she ever held the door open for an older man and guess what her response was….

    1. oh well she lacks home training as well. I hold doors open for people all the time, whether its because their hands are full, disabled, or just because they are right behind me…

    2. It goes back to what I said earlier, it's called common courtesy. If I see someone with their hands full or an elder (male or female), I will hold the door open for them.

  37. Even though I grew up in the south where people say we have southern gentlemen it's a very rare thing now. I told two male co-workers that I didn't believe chivalry was dead and it resulted in me being called a "gold digger." Quite surprising if you ask me. Simply because I believe a man should open a car door for me when I'm getting in and hold doors for me. The interesting thing is these were both Black men, well not really interesting. On campus I have more White and Latino males hold the door for me than Black. I could sit here and solely blame that on their upbringing, but it does have a lot to do with women.

    A lot of women let men do whatever the hell they want to, complain about it behind closed doors, but never say anything to the guy. "Oh if I tell him I want him to do this he's gonna think I'm high maintenance." Who cares? I have no problem stepping to the side when I'm out w/ a guy friend or boyfriend and letting them open the door. If he has a problem with it then we shouldn't be together anyways.

    Of course when it comes to things as simple as holding the door females on my campus seem to think that it shouldn't be labeled "chivalrous" b/c guys should do it anyways. Yet doors are constantly being closed in our faces. It seems like a lot of things labeled as being an act of chivalry with women in my age group (I'm 21) involves money being spent. This is why there's the constant debate on who should pick up the tab on a first date and all other dinners (if they occur).

  38. – Because I don’t know the circumstances surrounding the developing fight, I can’t say that I have much of an opinion on what transpired. I am honestly averse to drama-filled people, and I cannot blame anyone, man or woman, for removing themselves from a volatile situation. If it were a case whereby there was some unwarranted disrespect, though, I’d probably feel some type of way about any males in the group not stepping up to my/our defense (if it involved other male parties, that is). I don’t expect threats to be doled and weapons/fists pulled out, but I equally don’t expect that he/they’d sit there watching or simply disappear altogether.

    – I’ve heard this thing about men staying on the outside a few times over the years, but have never given it much thought. It’s neither something I notice, nor one that I’m going to start expecting. It goes to show that some things are only relevant insofar as they have been ingrained within an individual. I can’t blame any guy for not being able to re-train himself to do it, especially if he doesn’t really attribute much value to the concept. That’s part of why I actually wouldn’t speak up and tell a guy what “chivalrous” acts he should be performing (when it comes to me, that is). I know I’m sometimes disappointed by little things that a guy doesn’t do, but I’d be hard-pressed to ask him why he doesn’t, and to tell him that it’s something I expect. Truth be told, what I expect of men in general is kindness & respect. If a guy refuses to give up his seat on the subway, I wouldn’t consider it unkind. In fact, I would graciously decline, should he offer. That’s a random dude, though. I’d probably be somewhat taken aback if a guy accompanying me were to occupy the only available seat, leaving me to stand for the duration of the journey. Ah well, so much for that point. It’s funny the things I don’t realize until I express them in writing.

    – There are certain things that make me smile, but that I don’t expect. A guy making it a point to pull out my chair and/and opening my car door, for example. I consider these things gentlemanly, but don’t consider someone less of a gentleman if he doesn’t do them. I do subconsciously expect that building doors will be opened and that I will be allowed to pass first over 50% of the time, but I’m not one of those women who will stop and wait until it happens. If I’m better positioned to do so, I will open the door and let him in. Most of the time, though, I’m instructed to walk on ahead even after doing it. Lol, I consider myself a gentlewoman (sometimes). I’ve escorted men under my umbrella a couple of times, although I know a lot of people would expect that the guy take over and return it once we’re both safely under cover.

    – I agree with MadScientist about how one’s actions should not be dependent on others’ reactions. I walk around opening doors for people, relinquishing my seats & being kind simply because I like helping people whenever possible. I also greet people pleasantly and it makes me feel warm inside everytime I get a comment about how friendly I am. One of the high points of my year-end review at work was when my manager praised me for always being eager to help out a co-worker and for simply being a positive ball of energy. Mind you, there is a caveat to be added. I don’t do things in order to get praise and appreciation, but if I’m faced with rude or dismissive behaviour, my efforts will be discontinued. In the context of what was being said, I would open the door for a hoe, a lady, a bum, etc, alike, but I’m not going to pretend to be amused if one of the aforementioned were to then spit on my shoe in thanks. It’s not going to stop me from opening the door for the next person, but I may not be so inclined the next time I see the offending party.

    1. "There are certain things that make me smile, but that I don’t expect. A guy making it a point to pull out my chair and/and opening my car door, for example. I consider these things gentlemanly, but don’t consider someone less of a gentleman if he doesn’t do them. I do subconsciously expect that building doors will be opened and that I will be allowed to pass first over 50% of the time, but I’m not one of those women who will stop and wait until it happens. If I’m better positioned to do so, I will open the door and let him in. Most of the time, though, I’m instructed to walk on ahead even after doing it. Lol, I consider myself a gentlewoman (sometimes). I’ve escorted men under my umbrella a couple of times, although I know a lot of people would expect that the guy take over and return it once we’re both safely under cover."

      (melts and reforms)

      You said something very key that would win my heart and have me opening doors for YOUas much as I could. You dont "expect" yet it makes you smile if it does occur. Now that is the type of personality I can vibe with. No obligation. Nonjudgmental. Equality. Peaceful. Understanding. It's a loud expression with a subtle ambiance that says self sufficient, respectful, open, tolerant and sincere, yet secure with who the self is in relation to the world. You reflect someone who is quite accepting of the things she cant control, no attempts to change them but seeks a resolution for self.

      "I don’t do things in order to get praise and appreciation, but if I’m faced with rude or dismissive behaviour, my efforts will be discontinued. In the context of what was being said, I would open the door for a hoe, a lady, a bum, etc, alike, but I’m not going to pretend to be amused if one of the aforementioned were to then spit on my shoe in thanks. It’s not going to stop me from opening the door for the next person, but I may not be so inclined the next time I see the offending party."

      Loves it….la-la-la-loooovesss it! ^^^^^That's love right there.Team player right there!

      I wouldnt mind conducting a collaboration with you dear! We'd make some wonderful music. Props to ya.

      1. I couldn’t respond at the time, but this comment made me smile first thing this morning. Thank you, sir. Today, as I approached the door leading to our main office, one of the visiting head honchos made it a point to walk over and open it for me. That, too, made me smile. I actually said thank you twice, because he went out of his way to do so and it was unexpected.

        I'm big on showing appreciation. In my culture, age is a big deal, and you are pretty much expected to do the bidding of anyone older than you. Nonetheless, my mother always made it a point to say please and thank you as she sent me on errands. I do the same with my younger brothers, even though there’s little chance that they would refuse my requests. Positive reinforcement is a simple, yet highly effective psychological tool, and a little bit of appreciation goes a long way. You eventually get to a point where you do things for people without them asking, and vice versa.

  39. good post Slim…

    i took all of these postings in #Pause and actually looked up the definition of chivalry…

    when you get down to it, Chivalry, as it was designed, was a code of conduct for knights/warriors, loyalty to God, Loyalty to King/Country/Countrymen, Loyalty to a special woman, and general gentleness towards other females. as far as i know, this wasn't something done en masse…in other words, peasants weren't doing this. now, futher down the time-pipe, Bougie Europeans who didn't fight, incorporated these aspects into etiquette for the Bougies called "Courtesy Books"

    but chivalry, as practiced, (as others have said) doesn't respect the fact that women are now, or seeking, social equality with men…and since men (usually) are logical, it's really frustrated for a logical part of the male population to "pick and choose" what you want men to practice while balancing your equality.

    Furthermore, i don't think it's a lack of "chivalry" that women decry, moan, protest…it's more courteousness and kindness. Because truth be told, most of what we consider chivalry, is common sense courteousness:

    1 – opening doors

    2 – opening car doors (i'm sorry, i forget that knights had escalades back in the day)

    *off the top of my head*

    So in a sense, people are upset that men don't practice a nebulous set of courteousness that cater superficially to the females, without any equal reciprocation.

    be that as it may, i still practice excessive amounts of "chivalry"/courteousness…for example i don't sit on the subway unless the train car doesn't have a lot of people. if it starts to get packed, i just get up.

  40. In my opinion, chivalry should be as basic as common courtesy or respect. & That goes for Men & Women. Chivalry doesn't belong to a particular gender, it's a way of life. If you and whomever your around have a mutual respect for one another I believe there are certain acts that you'll do. But you can't always expect it because people were brought up different ways. Chivalry may be dead, and alot of people like to claim it's because men have killed it, that may be true but you can't complain as a woman if you have allowed it. If you let something happen with no consequences or a simple notice of whatsup, they'll continue to do and act how they please. If you want to be treated a certain way, let them know, everyone's not going to think the same way as you. At the same time though,There's a very thin line between being rude, and not practicing chivalry & if you can't come to an agreement, let em loose.

  41. I feel u Slim. If u have expectations, voice em. And if a dude doesnt agree let em go. As far as holding doors go, I don’t think anybody should let a door go on anybody (it’s a fucked up thing to do). Honestly, I think my mother taught me how to be the perfect husband because my father fell short. So I give up my seat for elderly people or women with babies etc., I hold the door for people, and I’ll even help take groceries to the car, the list goes on and on. The womans part in the whole chivalry thing is to simply say “Thank You”. A simple thank you goes a long way. And return favors every now and then. It’s not hard. Reciprocity is a good word!

  42. I experienced my first dose of chivalry at 18 with my first boyfriend. He walked in front of me when I walked down a set of stairs. he walked behind me when I walked up a set of stairs. I noticed this pattern of behavior and finally asked him why he did what he did when we approached a set of stairs. His reply: “So I can catch you if you fall. That’s what a gentlemen does.” I was shocked by his reply, but in a good way. He was only 20 years old and I was grateful that he heeded lessons taught by his parents. His chivalrous behavior helped shaped my standards and understanding of chivalry. I think expectations of chivalry fall on men because acts of chivalry displayed by men center around the man protecting the woman. Men, on average, are stronger and bigger than women. Women can’t offer that physical protection to the degree that a man can. There is a version of chivalry that describes what is expected of women. It is called being a lady. Ladies should know how to act while in the presence of a gentleman. Women reciprocate chivalry by showing and telling their appreciation for his care and protection. Men…Kick her asphalt to the curb if she’s not thanking you as these acts of chivalry are being committed. Women can also reciprocate chivalry by being ready to leave the house when the man arrives at the front door for a romantic date. It is extremely rude and unlady-like for a woman to have a man waiting 30+ minutes because of her poor time management skills. I don’t think men letting doors hit women in the face is about chivalry. This just sounds like no manners/ uncivilized behavior. I do think there is a difference between chivalry and manners. Chivalry is civilized behavior specific and exclusive to courting or a romantic relationship. Manners are civilized behavior demonstrated among one another as humans. I took a course within my major at my university titled Communicating Civility and it was one of the most entertaining and informative courses I’ve ever taken throughout my entire journey of formal education. Our textbook focused on historical codes of communication behavior according to Emily Post (aka Ms. Manners) and contemporary codes of civilized communication behavior according to Peggy Post. I am a straight sucker for chivalry and good manners demonstrated by men, women and children. Always have been and always will be.

    ** I apologize for writing such a long comment. I like to be clear and thorough when expressing my thoughts to prevent miscommunication. I’m Going to re-read the manners in cyberspace chapter of my etiquette textbook to avoid being an uncivilized repeated offender of this site.

  43. I prefer courtesy over chivalry any day. I can't go an extra mile trying to be nice or considerate just cause you call yourself a female. I show the same amount of respect/consideration to both sexes.

    Thanks to an outdated and practically defunct 12th/13th century rulebook, women are now more than ever, able to mask their painfully irritating demands on men in a word they call CHIVALRY.

    *Hiss…*

  44. I actually held the door opened for a guy today and he had such a shocked expression on his face because I stood there and waited until he had come through the door. He said thank you as if he had never had that treatment (by a woman) before.

  45. I still believe in chivalry….

    *Pause for Effect*

    It's just that I and some other chivalrous men out there are kind of tired of getting nothing in return from women. Just like Slim pointed out in the OP….Chivalry is not gender-specific. I know more women nowadays that do NOTHING nice or respectful toward men than ever before. Back in my Howard days, I'd hold a door somewhere on campus for a woman and some of them wouldn't even say a simple "Thank You". WTF?

    I've also ran into women that now think that a man doing something for them is the equivalent of him trying to get at her. Uh….Tone that ego down six notches, please….

    Then we have the whole "Guys doing less that chivalrous things and still getting more play than the respectful guys" phenomenon going on as well. That ignorance speaks for itself.

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