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Good Dads, Bad Dads, Headaches, and Enlightenment

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An uplifting pic that the Nubian Queens of SBM will like.

Can a man really win in court when it comes to custody of his child or payment terms for child support?

This was one of the many questions I found myself asking as I live-tweeted Together Apart’s most recent event, titled Know Good Dads: Daddy’s Little Girls, Child Support, and Baby Mama Drama. And yes, it was as interesting as it sounds. The panel discussion explored questions such as “How does your relationship with your father affect your romantic relationships?” and “How does a father co-parent with a difficult woman?” We even had an extensive dialogue about the ins and outs of the court system, where I learned a lot of sh*t that would be helpful if I ended up with a child and an aggressive baby mama whose head does 360s. As much as I enjoy going medium rare in the sheets, this conversation made me wanna double-bag my grocery until marriage. Seriously, I wanna f*ck through a bubble with a place for my piece.

Anyways, one of the struggles I always have with reviewing these Together Apart events is that there are so many good quotes from the panelists, live audience, and Twitter that I can’t expound much on any particular idea without leaving out a lot of great content. So what I’m gonna do today is list a few quotes, questions, and thoughts from the event, drop my 2 cents, then look to the readers for additional feedback. So basically, I’ma do the same shit I did last time. Hope you enjoy. Oh yeah, if you’re just reading via RSS or email…come to the site. It feels better. Sorta like going medium rare. No pause.

“The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.” – @iamlabasha from Twitter

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I’m not touching this sh*t with a 10-foot pole in this post, but I found it to be really thought-provoking. Just to provide context, this came up during the discussion on fatherless and motherless homes, and men/women having children with multiple people. Do you agree or disagree with the statement?

If you go to court saying you haven’t paid because you haven’t seen your kid, you will lose. That’s a different case. – A paraphrase of a comment made by panelist Alicia M. Crowe, ESQ. She dropped knowledge that would save a lot of brothers some money.

Not that I’d be a deadbeat dad, but I didn’t know this. Child custody and child support are completely differently cases that typically aren’t intertwined during court proceedings. So fellas, if you get/got served with a summons for child support and show up and say this, consider yourself bodied. *Insert legal disclaimer that my lawyer friends put at the bottom of an email whenever I ask them for advice.*

Men who go to court for a child will pay for the sins of legitimate deadbeat dads because of what the court is used to. – A paraphrase of a comment made by panelist Alicia M. Crowe, ESQ. *Insert legal disclaimer that my lawyer friends put at the bottom of an email whenever I ask them for advice.*

This doesn’t just apply to issues involving children. This applies to men going to court for anything that involves a woman. I know a guy who once went to court every month for 6-8 months because of a vindictive ex. All she did was file charges and tell the prosecutor and advocate what she wanted to happen while the guy went through hell. She only had to show up once at the end. And when she did, the case got thrown out. Sometimes the system fails before it succeeds. Regardless, sh*t is rough for dudes. Pause.

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Fathers dealing with difficult women need to be self-aware and have situational awareness. – Paraphrase of comment made by @ShawnaMarieTV

The same applies to women. Self-awareness is sexy. That’s one of my new mottos and has moved up my list of things I look for in women. If people took a second to look at how their actions might impact another person or a situation, a lot of drama would be avoided. And when it comes to children, drama can be very, very costly. Then again, some people are completely aware but act f*cking clueless then surprised when they realize that poking the bear comes with consequences.

“What you vibrate out from yourself is what you attract. You need to work on who you are to get what you want.” – From audience

I almost knocked over the table I was tweeting from when this comment was made. I thought of all the women that I’ve heard complain about attracting lame dudes and being tired of dealing with ninjas that suck in every aspect of life except the bedroom. No, I’m not saying this is why women are single. I’m just saying this is why some people aren’t as happy as they could be. Make sure you’re surrounded by good people and take it from there. If that doesn’t work, throw some pixie dust into that vortex of negative energy and see what happens.

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A good question to ask someone early on is “tell me about your relationship with your dad?” – @ShawnaMarieTV

I’m pretty sure how long it takes the person to start answering this will tell you where it’s about to go and if you should be concerned. Of course just like any interview, if they flip a negative into a positive they can come out victorious. When do you think this is a fair question to ask?

Should a man avoid new relationships until he gets his custody/relationship issues sorted out? – @TennileC from Twitter

This was another good question that didn’t get much burn due to time constraints and the flow of conversation, but I wanted to bring it to the SBM fam. I never been in this situation. But from what I know, this stuff can go on for months or years. Should a person really hold out on dating until it’s completely resolved? I’d like to get your feedback on this as well as the other points mentioned in the post today. If you were at the event, drop some of your favorite points from the event in the comments. Let’s make it a good one!

Reviewing & Sh*t,

P.S. This is the last week to vote for SBM in the Black Weblog Awards. We made it in 5 categories and need your support! Best Post Series, Best Group, Best Sex & Relationship, Best Design, and Blog of the Year. You can vote here.

Comment(90)

  1. 1. I found this statement to be provocative & misguided. It assumes that female empowerment is incompatible with the liberation of the black family. Some feminist will have problems with the notion of the family itself as a social construction which supports a patriarchal capitalist system at the expense of an authentic freedom for women free of gender. But not all feminist would see the family in that way. Second, in Africa , feminist would be a great thing. Are we really saying that a powerful woman is a threat to the family and women should be subsevient for the family to work?

    2. “The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.” – @iamlabasha from Twitter

    I’m not touching this sh*t with a 10-foot pole in this post, but I found it to be really thought-provoking. Just to provide context, this came up during the discussion on fatherless and motherless homes, and men/women having children with multiple people. Do you agree or disagree with the statement?

    3.yeah, I think I I'll disagree with that statement. I'm a good feminist. In so far as it's aims are compatible with universal liberal principles.

    4. It is only right that there 's no connection between child payments and visitation rights. Otherwise, you could be broke and never get to see your child even if you love each other.

    5.'great stimulating post to start the week with.

  2. All of those are interesting points. I can imagine how lively the conversation must have been.

    The one that stands out most to me is the question about the impact of the feminist movement on the black family. 

    Although I don't agree with the implication that things were perfect in the black family before the feminist movement, I do agree that it HAS had a negative impact on the black family.

    Our sisters have made great advances that we can be proud of. However, the TRUE beneficiaries of the feminist movement were white women. Black women still trail white women in most of the positives, and lead in most of the negatives. (At least that's what we're led to believe.)

    I also think that if the leaders of the civil rights movement had incorporated more women into it's framework, the lure and promise of the feminist movement may have been somewhat countered. And then at least some of the negative affects on the black family could have been minimized.

    1. Is there any data/evidence to back this view? No disrespect, but It seems like they just pulled this #BlameFeminism thing out of thin air.

      1. Hi,

        I'm sure that there is some out there. I googled "Feminism and the black family" and some interesting articles came up that you can skim through.

        My opinion comes from reading, observing, and thinking (over an extended period of time).

    2. I disagree. Feminism did start out solely promoting the interests of white women but I think it's a cop out to blame it for problems within the Black family structure. Black women were skeptical of feminism because of it served the interests of white women and didn't fit their reality. Not to mention, Black women never fit that June Cleaver housewife ideal that the White women were complaining about. Considering all of this, how can you say feminism ruined the Black family. If anything, trying to imitate patriarchy and white supremacist, in addition to poverty and a horrible school system among other things, has ruined the Black family.

      1. Hi,

        I never said that " feminism ruined the Black family". I wrote that "it HAS had a negative impact on the black family".

        Personally, I don't think the black family is "ruined".

  3. Should a man avoid new relationships until he gets his custody/relationship issues sorted out?

    Absolutely. I would assume that a man who does not do this has issues prioritizing. Your children should come first to you. Why are you chasing after women right now? You do not have time for this.

    A good question to ask someone early on is “tell me about your relationship with your dad?” When do you think this is a fair question to ask?

    This is so often a touchy topic these days that I generally do not think this is first or second date material. I either wait until it seems like a natural question or until we are having one of "those" conversations. I also typically expect that if I have to ask, it's an issue. If he has only talks about his mother – it's a natural question… but should definitely start from "are your parent's still married" or "tell me about your childhood" type of questions that, again, should naturally lead into it. My grandfather was absolutely a deadbeat dad in every single way and my dad is his opposite – it's certainly not genetic. If he has kids, his relationship with his kids will be more of an indication of the effect his relationship with his dad has on his character. We are not our parents, or our past – unless we allow ourselves to be. *See Slim's comments on self-awareness above. *

    “What you vibrate out from yourself is what you attract. You need to work on who you are to get what you want.”

    I know you said you weren't saying this is why women are single – but it kind of is. I mean, it's not why ALL women are single, but I would venture to say the majority could gain much from taking a good look at themselves and assessing their energy… this I learned the hard way.

    Fathers dealing with difficult women need to be self-aware and have situational awareness.

    Yes! And… SOME level of respect for her. I mean unless you are planning on taking full custody of your kids and not dealing with her AT ALL… miss me with that "this b*tch is crazy" talk. First of all it's rude. She wasn't that crazy when you were all up under her. What does that make you? Are you going to talk about me like that when we are through?

    The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.

    All I am going to say is that this statement says more about black men than it does black women. Personally, I believe black men are much stronger than this statement suggests.

    1. All I am going to say is that this statement says more about black men than it does black women. Personally, I believe black men are much stronger than this statement suggests.

      Please elab for the audience & maybe BM aren't all that powerful… #Shrug

      1. I wanted to keep it simple because I already felt like I was saying #themost. But here is what I meant:

        First of all, men and women having equal RIGHTS (gender equality) does not equate to the roles within your household being interchangeable. My ability to vote, own property, have a voice, etc. does not translate to "I trade in my role as the mother." I am not outright disregarding the fact that I am a female. It's simply the fact I will not be thought of as less than a man. If the law does not acknowledge me equally, if I cannot do all the things he can do (and I must stress that this is in terms of my RIGHTS..NOT my ROLE) than I am less than him. Period. I get that men and women are different, but we ARE of the same species. That, alone, says enough.

        As far as my opinion that the statement says more about black men than black women… what I meant is to me, saying that the feminist movement hurt the black family says MORE about the mans inability to cope with this equality. It's like you can only define yourself as the man if I am standing behind, as opposed to beside you. That's weak. So the only way black families could be successful is if black women have no other choice than to be less than their husbands? Why? Why does my OPTION to do something else.. to contribute to the family, etc. negatively effect you? I do not believe black men are that weak. That's what I was saying. There are obvious exceptions… but I hope my general point isn't lost in them.

        And I would add…. for every women saying they simply want their contribution as a wife and mother to be equally appreciated and they don't want the roles in a family construed… I believe the feminist movement helped this sense of appreciation. I mean, how can your contribution be equally valued if you have no other choice than to be doing what you do? Beyond that, is that all you want to be good for? I mean lets say you and your husband disagree politically? Oh well. He votes, as the representative of the family. You sit at home and bake cakes – your just a women. Your opinion doesn't matter. If your husband dies… would you like to be forced to wait around on some man to come save you? I mean come on.

        Lastly, With black people earning less money than white's – I cannot see how the black wife being able to work isn't seen as an obvious help. What other choice did we have to be able to make financial gains as black families and attempt to reach higher levels? Sacrifices had to be made.

        1. Good response… I will reply in a moment… In the spirit of "getting it right", if you are "The Oracle" then please, speak up #nosarcasm… Thank You

        2. Good Afternoon,

          If I deflect, or manipulate your points or something that is taking away from the convo… Just call me out on it… I didn't mean to do that on purpose…

          Rights Vs. Roles…

          The way you broke that down was A-… I mean, for women, today they have to operate as two-three different people… Basically be a woman who is domestic, a woman who is a s*xual creature (roles) & then now you have the third element that you broke down… Earning money, voting, owning sh*t…

          Now, in reference to BW… I don't believe that she has fully learned how to manage all three positions at an intermediate level (so forget about expert & master…), maybe a few have learned to make that adjustment (I guess you can put Beef Bacon & Teflon Temptress in those categories)… & simultaneously BM haven't caught up to this these women (either they are avoiding them, or taking advantage of them altogether…)

          But as reference to another post Slim wrote https://www.singleblackmale.org/2011/03/28/romance

          There are women when they have empowerment or their equal share, they don't know how to mesh that into a relationship (which I believe should have one who leads, one who follows, and in a disagreement, the leader breaks the tie, which is most likely the man…)

          And equality is not the issue… I think alot of women want to DOMINATE & use equality as code for domination, obviously that is not you…

          There are women who are so used to being on their own, independent, that they have lost touch with dating & relating to a man… Or women who have been taught from birth that BM are not going to be there for you, so they use independence as one big defense mechanism… And are just set-up to be habitually single…

          I don't think I have anything else to contribute… So, I'll just give you my personal preferences…

          I would PREFER it if a woman lead my relationship, and if she is smarter in me in certain areas, I would definitely allow her to do her thing, as best as she can do it…

          As long as she has good intentions & knows what she is doing, then absolutely she should take the wheel…

          But from what I have observed from eStreets to Real Streets, it is not a woman's place to lead a relationship, most are not build or fit to lead (because if something goes wrong, she'll blame the man, instead of taking responsibility like most men would)

          And because I have no interest in being with the love of my life anymore, I want to appeal to most women…

          So, to sum it up… I have no problem with equality, just respect the traditional gender roles…

          Some women make equality a code word for "I want to run the relationship because I believe no (black) man is fit to lead me…"

          And BM do need to adjust somewhat to Today's BW… I know I do… The only problem with that is, is that there are alot of other things that keep BM away (attitudinal, KOW, etc…)

        3. Good Evening, 🙂

          *Nodding head* Yea. I think I understand your perspective and I like the connection you made between roles and rights.

          The "ninjas aint sh*t", and "I can do bad by myself" attitude adopted by black women has without question hurt us and caused a disconnect. You are right about the abuse of power that happens. The source of these issues is deeper than equality, independence, or any other option for freedom. Much deeper. Having the option to be on your own, does not make you want to. That's like saying before freedom, slaves were just fine being slaves. Extreme, yes – but similar!

          I really want to say independence, in terms of not being dependent on a man, does not equate to losing touch with men… but I really do understand your point. Independence can sort of minimize the traditional role of a man in a women's life. This is no doubt an issue we face today, but companionship and s*x and such are needs, not wants, from birth! We need men. So regarding women having rights and being empowered to do things themselves… beyond tthe aforementioned needs… can't I just want you? If a woman disregards the need for men in her life in any form… this is definitely not caused by her independence. Something else is there first. I mean, yes, I can do some of the things a man can do for me for myself, but not the way he can. I want him to. Until he's here though… #igotthis.

          I have to entirely disagree with you regarding the black women's ability to simultaneously perform the roles you've mentioned at above the intermediate level. Far before the feminist movement we raised our own families and our masters' family too. We are experts. Being an expert juggler doesn't mean you never drop a ball. It happens! Women who cannot manage may be on the rise, as far as numbers go, due to the decline of the black family – which I think we sort of agree is not the source of the issue… but surely you don't see black women as that incapable?! 🙁

          Lmao @ TheOracle. You already know the answer. Try to understand why… 🙂 lol.

        4. I hear you… Actually What I was trying to say that BW have fell off the femininity & cater to her man bandwagon as a collective…

          I'll say it another way… I don't see my mother & grandmother in today's black woman… But I see it in the white girl & the Latinas & the Asian girls…

          And I also acknowledge that the destruction of the black family has contributed to effeminate men & masculine women…

          But as Dr. Jay puts it… If you have an issue such as dating & relating to the opposite sex in America… You have to "Get Over It"

          https://www.singleblackmale.org/2009/08/27/the-get

    2. —————————————————————————

      Absolutely. I would assume that a man who does not do this has issues prioritizing. Your children should come first to you

      —————————————————————————

      Exactly. A woman who isn't taking care of of her children isn't even an option for a date, Why would a guy get a pass?

      1. My think with that question on men dating while going through court stuff is that it could go on for months or years and it isn't something that takes up every hour of every day. So if his child's mother brings him to court repeatedly and is always on some BS, at what point is he allowed to move on with his life? Hope that makes sense.

        1. I think its not so much at what point in your life do you move on but more of who you move on with. You have to have a women who understands that your child is your number one priority which means you might have to cancel a date to do something last minute for your child, without there being a argument. She also has to respect your child's mother even when she wants to beat her down. Something as little/big as your new girl and your child's mother getting into a dispute could cause major problems and trust the child's mother will bring that to the courts. Also remember your life is no longer just yours its yours and your child's. (Move on when ever you are ready just know it won't be an easy road, and don't bring your. Joints around your child, if she's not a serious girlfriend don't even get her in that situation)

  4. “The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.” – @iamlabasha from Twitter

    I think this statement has ALOT of truth to it… I just wish I was an expert who can elaborate on it…

    When I seen this statement, I thought about the movie I saw on YouTube
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkVWz0uXiEA, basically how feminism screwed us all…

    Feminists conveniently over look the negative impact of the effects it has had on (black) families & marriage…

    Most feminists (just like Christians) don't even do research on the origins & the people who started & funded this women's lib movement…

    If I did some more research, I can go little more hard with it…

    But I will ask this question for those people who are hellbent riding with this ideology….

    How has feminism benefited society as a whole…? What about men…?

    And as for the (black) women who are on that tip "They Will Struggle Forever…"

    Men who go to court for a child will pay for the sins of legitimate deadbeat dads because of what the court is used to.

    I thought lady justice was supposed to be blind… oh well… f*ck that bitch anyway… And I also heard family court operates in secret… you can't just go to a records department and look up past cases…

    Fathers dealing with difficult women need to be self-aware and have situational awareness.

    Men who are childless need to take heed to this… & avoid women like this in the first place… (Alot of men are so focused on the p*ssy & not the human being in front of them… Its really sad…)

    Now for the men out there who have children with difficult women… Need to learn some hardcore persuasion & manipulation… Being that now that you & the woman are no longer on the same team… she has the courts on her side…

    So when you come to the negotiation table… You are alone, while she has bodyguard with guns behind her…

    “What you vibrate out from yourself is what you attract. You need to work on who you are to get what you want.”

    Best statement of the night… I think of me when I hear this statement… It just reminds everyone about the big part they played in bringing on their own misery…

    A good question to ask someone early on is “tell me about your relationship with your dad?”

    This question (or any question of that matter) is not as bad as you think it is…

    When my life is all said & done, I want three people to interview me (cause I think I will trip all three of them out…)

    Mike Wallace, Chris Hansen, & Oprah…

    If you come off like Oprah, getting information from someone is a breeze… But this question needs to be asked…

    Should a man avoid new relationships until he gets his custody/relationship issues sorted out?

    Tough question… I think he should, but sometimes the new girl provide relief from the old girl… But no matter what, make sure that you are good, so you can make sure the kids are good…

    At the end of the day, men have to be really careful (for their children) what kind of women they have children with…

  5. What I don't get is why so many of these deadbeats still have a social support apparatus that overlooks their issues? If your bro isn't taking care of his business you should def reassess your friendship.

    1. I think part of the problem is that from the outside you never really know what's going on other than what your friend or family member tells you. I couldn't see rolling with someone that's evading child support, but I think we're talking about a different type of person who hangs with like-minded people in many instances.

  6. <blockquote cite="comment-315230">

    UrbanMecca: I do agree that it HAS had a negative impact on the black familyP>

    Is there any data/evidence to back this view? No disrespect, but It seems like they just pulled this #BlameFeminism thing out of thin air.

  7. Hmm, interesting article. Curious to see where people go with this.

    (Sidenote: it ain't eff 'em Friday, but eff the Miami Heat!)

  8. “The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.” – @iamlabasha from Twitter

    I AGREE! Although I am for women being treated equal, I am against women giving up their proper functions to compete with men. I too like to work outside the home; however, my family comes first! There are things I, the WOMAN of the family, bring to the table that daddy just isn't wired for. Women and men should be respected equally, but our functions are NOT THE SAME. Children thrive on nurture, which is best from mothers (I don’t apologize for that comment men). The feminist movement should have come with a year or two of paid maternity leave! That would benefit our country long term.

    "If you go to court saying you haven’t paid because you haven’t seen your kid, you will lose. That’s a different case."

    For the men that do not know this—SHAME ON YOU! This is direct proof that some men are not aware of the legal rules surrounding this important issue. If a man wants to see his child—GO TO COURT FIRST! Don’t wait on the woman to take you there for child support/custody. Initiate that important step the same way you would initiate hollering at a woman! Sitting around your boys complaining, "she won't let me see my son yo" is a BAD LOOK for you as a father. Plus, once the child is aware of the legal rules you could/should have used to be with them, they may resent you.

    Men who go to court for a child will pay for the sins of legitimate deadbeat dads because of what the court is used to.

    This is an excuse. Get a lawyer or two. Do what you have to do for you child! Besides, many judges aren't that cold. They do realize that a child's future is as stake. Give the legal system a lil credit…lol. Trust me, I understand, but laws are laws at the end of the day. Judges can't just shaft a father because he/she feels like it…the laws are here to protect us. You just have to have KNOWLEDGE of said laws.

    Should a man avoid new relationships until he gets his custody/relationship issues sorted out? – @TennileC from Twitter

    That would depend on what type of women he is involved with. If he meets a woman that sincerely cares about him, she TOO will make it a priority that he pay his dues and see his child. NO intelligent woman will play those games of an insecure woman because she is smart enough to know–I may have a child for him one day, is this how I would want another woman to do me?

    1. <blockquote cite="comment-315243">

      Beef Bacon: I AGREE! Although I am for women being treated equal, I am against women giving up their proper functions to compete with men. I too like to work outside the home; however, my family comes first! There are things I, the WOMAN of the family, bring to the table that daddy just isn’t wired for. Women and men should be respected equally, but our functions are NOT THE SAME.

      I agree with this statement. My girlfriends and I were just talking about this the other day. Honestly… I just want what I bring to to the table to be respected and as highly valued as anything my man brings to the table. I agree… our functions are not the same. Or… they shouldn't be anyway. They should be valued equally, though.

      Unfortunately, a lot of women have had to step into the role of being both mommy and daddy… and that burden is just being passed down through the generations. Its sad, really…

      But I feel you on family coming first. I like to work, and I've always been independent, so I'll probably always have a side hustle where I'm contributing financially in some way… but when I get married, I would love to be able to stay at home… at least until all my kids start having full days of school.

    2. I agree with your first point. While men and women should be equal on many playing fileds, I think some feminst forget that womenhood should be embraced and not try to emulate every aspect of manhood.

    3. We agree on the outcome, but not on the source. The Black family has been under attach since we set foot on these shores. You can't skip past slavery and put the blame on feminism. White feminists were fighting to get off a pedastal the Black woman was never on in the first place.

  9. Can someone elaborate on exactly WHAT the effects of the feminist movement on the black family? I hear that statement all the time but no one really backs it up with any facts.

      1. Black Men could barely get a job during the civil rights and therefore the black woman had to work. For women that had no choice but to be at home, welfare became the husband (See Claudine). Men were forced out of the home and forced to seem less than because of this. Instead of black women understanding the divide and conquer moves used to separate us, we fell for the ookie-doke.

        Before integration, we were BETTER. We were united and building our communities. Even though we faced lynchings and such, we were together and cared for each other. While we fought SOOOO hard to be amongst our enemies, we should have been fighting to be left alone. We should have been building our OWN communities instead of fighting to get in somewhere we weren't wanted. Since we have been ‘accepted’ into a culture that never benefited US in the first place, our plight has gotten worse.

        1. I dont think The Black feminist movement was created to seprate black men and women, I think it was created to give the black women an identity in the struggle. In the public eye the Civil rights movement covered the struggle of both black men and women, the inner workings of the civils rights movement at times was more focused on the progression of the black man and not both the black man and black women as a unit. As far as the White feminist movement, they did'nt respect the the different outlooks of the black female. Plus the white feminist agenda was fighting for white women to be equal to white men, they were'nt worried about black women being raised to that level. So when you go to one group you face rasicm and the other you face sexism (at times) you will eventual create a movement of your own that focuses on your issues.

        2. I believe we're largely in agreement Beef Bacon. I would suggest reading Harold Cruse's 'The Crisis of the Negro Intellectual' to get some background knowledge on why the Civil Rights movement had that goal in mind.

          @Smilez

          That is exactly what I was hinting at earlier. It doesn't help that Black woman's views on what feminism means to them differs greatly than from their white counterparts which is why Womanism largely began. One of the most vivid anecdotes I remember hearing about a woman in the Black Panther Party was about her reporting a rape to one of the local leaders and his response was that she should have gladly given it up because he's striving to help 'all black people'.

  10. “The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.”

    All this statement highlights is the complete lack of knowledge and history on what Feminism is. First and foremost, women of color (Black, Hispanic, Asian, etc.) were note affected by the first wave of feminism because Feminism's first primary concern was job employment/work related. Women of color HAD to be working since whenever the first came over her because they were in abject poverty from the get go. For the white women, it was essentially just something to do since they were either college educated or felt unfulfilled in their lives simply as a housewife. Now, obviously not every single white women prior to the Feminist movement didn't have to work, but that's what it was targeted as.

    I don't feel any compelling need to write out the entire history of Feminism here, but I would encourage people to look up Black women and Womanism as well as books for bell hooks and Patricia Collins (particularly her book 'Black Feminist Thought).

    1. i started to quote Patricia Hill Collins' book as well. then i stopped myself. lol.

      but you make a great point. i think the black family was dismantled by much more than just feminism.

      1. while feminism does have some impact of on the black family in general,social policy and lack of leadership (in our community) takes more of the blame. The entire concept of marriage is failing – and not just in the black community – just look at the scandiavian countries can't get any whiter than denmark and 'em and no i'm not using other people's bad behavior to excuse our failings.

        IJS that in countries with huge welfare states, there is a decrease in *traditional* marriage.
        http://goo.gl/T8EKW: now that married parenthood has become a minority phenomenon, it has lost the critical mass required to have socially normative force… in the wake of the changes of the 90s, …marriage is no longer a precondition for settling a family–neither legally nor normatively. http://goo.gl/yjfPM: 80% of children born in denmark are born out of wedlock.

  11. Men who go to court for a child will pay for the sins of legitimate deadbeat dads because of what the court is used to/

    Kinda sorta, unfortunately the court system is set up in favor of the women and some men get the short end of the stick or given a really hard time.

    Fathers dealing with difficult women need to be self-aware and have situational awareness. – Paraphrase of comment made by @ShawnaMarieTV

    Also a lot of times a man can be in the middle of a custody battle and make the smallest mistake which can lead to him losing the battle. Men if you are fighting for custody of your child recorded everything you do for that child down. If your writing checks for child support keep a recorded (Never hand the baby mother cold hard cash unless absolutely necessary. If you pay for child care out of your pocket keep a recorded of that and have the child care facility sign those papers. Also be very activity in your child’s school, ie: make sure your number is on the contact list at school so when something happens you are contacted, anytime there’s a teachers meeting make sure you are there even if the child mother is present. Also anytime the mother’s child won’t let you see that child make note of that and report it to the court where this occurs. Also men keep a positive attitude and know that it is a process and it might not happen in 1,2,3 remember you are doing this for your child and let the love you have for your child push you through this and keep faith. Also research the child custody/support laws in your state because it varies from state to state. Also if you have a criminal record please talk to someone (a lawyer) so they can tell you how your record could affect the custody battle. One last thing if you smoke weed (this is for the you fathers 21-27) stop, I know for some it’s a stress reliever but if you get drug tested and fail it’s a rap especially if your child’s mother knows about it.

    “What you vibrate out from yourself is what you attract. You need to work on who you are to get what you want.” – From audience

    This is true for every aspect in life. Women talking about they want a man that makes 60,000 dollars a yr but you dont even have a job. Or they want a smart, well traveled, in shape man, but they haven’t read a book or newspaper since 11th grade for a current events project, and have'nt done a sit up since gym class in high school. Sometimes when we are busy working on ourselves in a positive way our aura brings ppl into our lives that are doing the same. (The same goes for both men/women)

    1. "Or they want a smart, well traveled, in shape man, but they haven’t read a book or newspaper since 11th grade for a current events project, and haven't done a sit up since gym class in high school."

      I def cracked the f*ck up at this.

  12. I'll just come out and say it- if you think women's lib broke the black family then you did not pay attention during the slavery section of social studies. The other issue with the feminist theory is that it places the blame solely on black women- enough already. Families (I'm going to settle with black and white) have taken a back seat as our perspective of life has changed. Yes it involves women's lib but to pick that as the one breaking point doesn't work for me. We just had a discussion a few weeks ago here about men waiting until they had their lives together to marry- what about that says feminist?

    I currently intern at a firm working with domestic violence, child support, visitation, and divorce etc. In the cases that I've seen men do come at a disadvantage but it's often more complicated than simple statistics explain. A lot of our clients are women who are coming in from DV situations who then go to get custody and child support. Often the men show up and don't care to have custody or visitation, lie about the money they make, don't bring counsel, and test the judges patience etc- so it makes it harder for good fathers to win but they do and more often than people think.

  13. I have a co-parenting relationship with my ex-husband and I have learned several things.

    1. The happiness of your child is more important than your ego. Yes it hurts that he has “this woman” around my child, but why should I try to ruin his life. If he is living in the hood, then essentially my kid will have to visit him in the slums. I don’t even have court ordered child support or custody. Because we both agreed that we wanted each other to succeed for the betterment of our child. I want my kid to go to the movies, fair, amusement park, or wherever he can afford. If I take everything then how can he afford food, shelter, or transportation? You at least cared about this person at one point, so why are you trying to destroy their future. Your child will grow up and eventually realize that you were a jerk that kept them way from having a loving relationship with their other parent.

    2. Co-parents house is co-parents rules. We can try to agree on bedtimes, diets, and the amount of TV time but at the end of the day they can do what they want in their home. I wish my ex would try to tell me what to do in my home, so I owe him that same respect.

    3. The best revenge is to move on and be happy. My ex is not losing a wink of sleep over me. And if I choose to be a bitter, psycho then it just makes me look bad. Move on, and just be happy you have a guy who really wants to be apart of his kids life. My child knows that they are loved by both parents. And that is the most priceless gift that I can give them. Not only that but bitterness not sexy. And I’m positive that your nasty attitude is preventing you for finding the person meant for you. Forgiveness is for you, being bitter is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die. It makes no sense, it holds you back, and your children can feel that negativity.

    I really wish that more parents would just sit down and talk out their problems. Dragging a guy to court every month is not going to bring him back. Calling your ex any name but a child of God will not make her any less angry. At the end of the day you want to raise a healthy child. You made that decision to lay with each other, so be an adult and take care of business. Every woman knows that the laws in place cater to the mother, so why abuse the system when you have a decent guy. Men just pay the child support; it’s for food, clothes, shelter, field trips, and whatever else you child needs. If you kid is still living in poverty afterwards then fight for custody or get them a few times more per week. The black family desperately needs repair, and its not going to get better if we keep fighting and finger pointing.

    1. All of this!!!! You really just poured out my thoughts.

      My seperation agreement does include our co-parenting arrangments…which is now a part of our divorce decree. However, we split all the fees for our children down the middle…even expensive birthday gifts (A bike at each house? Naw, lol). Legally, my ex-hubby was supposed to give me an additional $200 per month beyond splitting everything…and I waved it. I sure did. I didn't feel that he owed me more money because he had two incomes…he shouldn't be penalized for that. For as long as he pays his half of the kiddie bills, I'm good. He provides everything they need at his house and I provide everything they need at my house. The "shoe bag" goes between houses…we help each other out with that, lol. And, we def don't dictate rules in each other's homes.

      The only thing I require is knowledge of women who will be a constant presence in my childrens lives. You don't need my permission to date, no. But, he and I have every other week without the boys…no need to mix our personally lives with our boys unless its serious. You WILL NOT have a revolving door of random anythings around my babies, hmph. So, when it gets serious, call me… Him: "Look, I'm seeing someone and its really serious. The kids may begin to mention the name ____." Me: "Cool. Thanks for the heads up." (Later with my boys) Boys: "Mom, we hung out with Daddy's friend, ____. She's really nice." Me: "Wow, Daddy told me about her. I trust that your Dad wouldn't let someone come around you if they weren't cool. I'm glad you like her. Remember, to never let anyone touch your private parts…." I mean, I can observe her through them and communicate with their Dad if something weird comes up and he and I can discuss HOW she'll be involved with them…cause they don't need another Mother. You can be "like" a Mother to them, I guess, but I don't need a replacement, lol. He and I will make decisions for them…you just help him execute the plan…you get no vote. Ijs…

      1. LOL…um, I was rushing to finish this so I could go to lunch…please excuse my typos! I caught one before my "edit window" closed, but, clearly, there were more, LOL…smh.

    2. Right here!

      I agree with all of this..this is how I conduct my relationship with my children's Father…and it works.

  14. <blockquote cite="comment-315249">

    Rxbeauty: The black family desperately needs repair, and its not going to get better if we keep fighting and finger pointing.

    Co-sign!

  15. “The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.”

    I don't know if I agree with this… I think the black family has had problems since slavery. But I guess if someone could elaborate on exactly what problems the feminist movement brought to black families, then I could form an opinion…

    “What you vibrate out from yourself is what you attract. You need to work on who you are to get what you want.”

    This is a great statement…

    "A good question to ask someone early on is “tell me about your relationship with your dad?”

    It is a good question. Its a good question to ask someone what their relationship with their family in general is. And its not just a good question for men to ask… ladies its a good question for women to ask men as well. Asking questions like this is a part of the getting to know you process. However, I think men put too much stock into a girls relationship with her father. Finding this information out can be indicative of problems that may arise. Its good for you to know so that if any issues come up, you understand where they may be coming from. But don't write off a woman that you haven't even gotten to know yet because she may not have had a good relationship with her father. We all have issues. It doesn't mean she can't be a good woman.

    "Should a man avoid new relationships until he gets his custody/relationship issues sorted out?"

    Eh… I just think that he should find a women who is supportive of him and encourages him to do the right thing while he's going through what he's going through. But finding that woman can be quite the challenge…

  16. Slim, this was a great post. I love the fact that instead of trying to offer too mnay opinions, you gave us an overview of the event and invited us to share our opinions. And so I will…

    In reference to “The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.” , a quote from @iamlabasha….. I must wholeheartedly cosign.

    Correlation does not neccesarily indicate causation, however. I believe that women are the heart and soul of a family. When the woman does not "play her role" by supporting her man and making her house a HOME, problems result. However, I come from a household where my mother ran two businesses, and was the BEST homemaker I have ever encountered. The problems have arisen in our generation where most women are, in my opinion, too lazy, to play their role.

    I believe in traditional gender roles, to a point. To wit, I feel that it is a man's PRIMARY responsibility to make sure that the members of his household have food, shelter, and clothing. His woman, as his partner and support, should do everything in her power to support him in this endeavor. In some households, that may mean that she HAS to work outside their home. I also feel that it is a woman's PRIMARY responsibility to make sure that her household is well fed, healthy, and her home is clean. Her husband, as her partner, should do everything in his power to support her efforts. It's all about responsibility, not about who actually does the work.

    I find that families fall apart when men and women fail to play their roles. The feminist movement sought to destroy the gender roles that keep families intact. And unfortunately, today, in the black community, a lot of families are failing because black men haven't been taught to support their families and black women haven't been taught to take care of their homes.

    Sad situation… I will be glad to see the day when we, as young Black people stand up and say, "okay, this ain't working, let's fix it."

    1. "Sad situation… I will be glad to see the day when we, as young Black people stand up and say, “okay, this ain’t working, let’s fix it.”

      We see the problem the solution is just a hard one to come by were both parties feel like they aren’t losing power or feel like they are both getting a good deal.

      You have young black men who don’t know how to define manhood because they don’t have a real man to look up to. They also don’t know how to carry the responsibilities that manhood brings.

      You have young black women who don’t understand the difference between being A STRONG BLACK WOMEN and being A DIFFICULT BLACK WOMEN and letting a man be a man because either they have been the man in most situations or they don’t know what a real MAN looks like.

      You have a power struggle between the black man and women that is also being run through the media in a light that doesn’t spawn positivity.

  17. Wow Slim…great read and a lot to get into. *cracks knuckles and swivels head* Let's go:

    1) Black women were the heads of household before feminism came along. We didn't benefit from the "pretty little lady can't handle it" syndrome in the first place. Black women can handle a lot, and hold it together better than a lot of folks. That doesn't mean that we don't want to have a man who can say, "Sit down, put your feet up. I got this." Women want to be valued and cherished, no matter how strong, successful or independent she is. Blaming feminism is a real cop out.

    2,3&4 – True story, my brother's first child was with a woman he had no intention of ever being in a serious relationship with. When she got pregnant she had the attitude that she would keep the kid with her and he would pay. Maybe be an "every other weekend" type dad – that's what she was used to. Naw, playa. My bro took her behind right to court and got primary custody and she got visitation. He wanted his child. You have to play to win. But you also have to have the conviction to do what's right for your child. Document everything. Put stuff in writing (do you know how much foolishness you can avoid when someone signs their name to an agreement vs. just talking about it? A lot.) That was 12 years ago, and the courts were more on the mom's side then. It can be done, it's just not easy. Custody battles aren't for punks.

    5) Haven't I been saying this for years? I should collect a royalty fee, except I heard it from someone else, lol. And it's true for men and women. If all you talk about are the hoes/ratchets/bustas/no-good negroes that you run into…check what you're putting out. If you set out cheese you're bound to attract rats.

    6) Asking about a person's relationship with their dad should just be part of the "finding out about you" package.

    7) Yes. I think men should avoid actively seeking out women while they're in the middle of custody battles, unemployed or mid-divorce. I don't see how you can make a woman a priority in any of these situations.

    1. I didn't say this last week, but the baby pic makes me say "aww."

      Your comments here bring me joy. Glad your back in the mix. By the way, your story on brother winning in court reminded me of another quote that "Court is WAR." You really gonna have the arsenal at your disposal.. I also found it interesting what you said about her thinking he'd be an every other weekend dad because that's what she's used to.

  18. ah, so much to address.

    on the feminism issue, i somewhat agree, but i don't think there was any one factor that solely dismantled the black family. when incarceration rates of black males started rising in the 1970s, that's when the black family started falling apart to the state that we are in now. this number increased steadily until around 2006 or 2007. i believe the breakdown of the black family was a deliberate and calculated attack by the government, with the concentrated political and social oppression of black men for a long period, the introduction of cocaine and for-profit drug sales in our urban communities as a way for those black men to make money when they couldn't otherwise, and the advent of feminism and it's growing influence as more black women had to be both mother and father to children, and wearing the "strong black woman" badge proudly, even at the expense of the black male.

    divide and conquer.

    i think that all of these factors inextricably woven together, has resulted in an awkward state for black families in which the man (nor the woman) really knows the true role for a black man in the home. humans learn by example, and as more generations grow up in fatherless homes, the place for a black man as a father has devolved from being a strong presence in the home, to being in the court, or the weekend daddy, etc. so yes, i believe feminism had a role in the problematic black family, but it is not the only cause by a long shot.

    as far as the other issues, a man going to court for custody and winning, is nearly impossible. there are more automatic rights given to a mother (understandably) and there are far more deadbeat fathers trying to avoid paying, so the court is just systematically skewed in the woman's favor. a mother would almost have to walk in court in disarray, pipecrack in hand, for a man to get custody. it helps though if you have an amicable relationship with the mother, and you two come to an agreement BEFORE making it legal, those go extraordinarily smoother. (someone with five step-brothers speaking here. lol).

    i know that ish happens, it happened in my family, but i think not only being more self-aware, but being more aware of exactly who you're taking a chance procreating with and NOT taking said chance with anyone whom you'd not like to be the mother or father of your child, would solve a great deal of these problem, along with resolving to be married before taking that risk at all. but, loins speak and we listen, and i still believe babies are blessings in most instances. so… lol. just take care of your chirren, please.

  19. Another post that hits home for me, so now I have to stop lurking for today…ya'll gon' get me fired.

    Anyway….I'm currently in a similar situation. I'm the "new" girlfriend…well not really we've been together for a while and YES YES YES…these things do tend to go on for quite awhile, especially when you have two people that try to resolve things amicably between themselves. Once things go sour, all kinds of proverbial sh!t hits the fan and whatever arrangments you've made between each other can go right out the door. My S/o is filing for primary custody of his child and I admire him for doing it. If you're willing to date a man that is resolving custody issues, all I can say is stay prayed up…these things can get really ugly really quick (ya'll pray for me). I've worked in family courts and I can say…If you're male or female dealing with a baby mama or a baby daddy, my suggestion to you would be to file for child support and have an iron clad custody agreement that you both can agree on. If you protect yourself and your rights up front, you can avoid the chaos on the back end.

    1. "Another post that hits home for me, so now I have to stop lurking for today…ya’ll gon’ get me fired."

      I work in HR. I got you covered if they say anything. 🙂

  20. I got a crazy day at work, but glad to see the dialogue happening today. Will try to drop in later to leave more elaborate comments since people are making some very interesting points.

  21. <blockquote cite="comment-315260">

    Teflon Temptress: We agree on the outcome, but not on the source. The Black family has been under attach since we set foot on these shores. You can’t skip past slavery and put the blame on feminism. White feminists were fighting to get off a pedastal the Black woman was never on in the first place.

    I agree, but I am not skipping, just staying on topic. The issues slavery forced on us is a whole other post.

    1. Well shoot – you are absolutely right. And now for my standing request that I'd like to see some pics of the Bacon Bit. See that baby in the corner? She wants to see the Bacon Bit too.

  22. As far as feminism and the black family…um no. The black family structure has been in shambles since the days of slavery. We have internalized what happened to us collectively and all of the struggles since those days and the days of Jim Crow. Back then, the black man couldn't protect his woman or family from the evils of the world. I.E: The slave master and being sold, beaten, rapes, etc, etc. Therefore, the black woman had to fend for herself. After slavery ended not much changed since African-Americans were still in inferior positions(poor, uneducated, couldn't make any money or establish and real wealth. Sure, some select individuals could but not the black community on the whole. Black women still had to go to work washing some else's draws helping their man take care of home. What happens because of this? Pent up frustration on both sides about the situation. The black man doesn't feel like a full man because he still can't provide and protect his women and family like he might want to. The black woman doesn't feel like a woman because she isn't provided for and protected like she might want to be. Especially during a time when that was the social norm in households. The woman thinks less of her man and the man as a result thinks, "She don't need me."

    Fast forward to the 60's, 70's, and 80's. What do we have? Heroin and crack further debilitating the community. It's just my opinion, but I feel that all of the negative social situations that African-Americans have been have been subjected to have done more to harm the black family structure than feminism. We haven't healed from our checkered and hurtful past. I mean, a lot of black still call themselves the N word. I'm surprised this wasn't touched on during the panel.

  23. The biggest problem is that the parents are losing sight of what's important: the child. Ok so it happens you have a child with someone you end up hating or not getting along with, that doesn't mean you should try to make their life hell because the one who ends up suffering is the child. Parents should come up with an agreement themselves, without the judges/courts input, its really simple (unless it includes a divorce proceeding–some states require filing for child support/custody) But if they both put their pride and vindictiveness to the side in an effort to do what's right for the child, it will not turn into an ugly situation. Together, the parents should come up with an amount of child support that they both agree with as well as a custody/visitation plan. If they can't do that and it has to be brought to court then as I said, both parents should stay focused on the child and put all the bad attitudes and hate to the side.

    There are sooooo many (black) co-parents who have no issues in this area, its because they are mature, responsible and have their child's best interest at heart. Actually, there should be a panel-discussion facilitated by black co-parents who have made it work without confrontation or ever stepping foot in a court room.

  24. Good post.

    The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.

    I'm not going to throw women a pity party, but my mom believes in her independence and civil rights as a human being. By definition, she is a feminist. And when our family fell apart it WAS NOT because of my mom. I don't get it. What do you people see in your minds when you read the word feminism? It's truly not bunches of women abandoning their families. It's about women having more say-so and avenues to PROVIDE FOR their families. Let me let you in on something. A successful family (regardless of race) is about checks and balances and not about servitude. The servitude idea that people internalized as being a part of the recipe for the "black family" is residue from… guess what… slavery. Yeah… I said it… Why else would a people who were enslaved have members who say equal rights for ALL of us destroyed the ideal of "black family"? Why must there be a discrepancy in civil rights and options between genders in order to have a successful family? Let that marinate…

    And another thing… the "black family" was broken before hand. Don't look at divorce rates. Look at the laws of the time. I wonder of the black families that stayed together, given the times, how many wives were abused and could not leave given there wasn't a legal system to defend them and financially they depended on the man for survival (meaning it wasn't a choice to submit, meaning they HAD to do it or STARVE and/or die)? Think about it people. The system was (is) f*king black men over. Black men were frustrated, and many times those frustrations ended up being taken out on their families. I've seen this mock "traditionalist" ideals in real life… That ish IS NOT pretty and it's not about unicorns and rainbows. It's not about letting the man lead… Just like when we were kids and though Power Rangers was the best thing, we developed these notions of grandeur of the black family servitude as "tradition." Now that we are grown , it's time to realize that maybe as children we didn't have the understanding of the situation/world and Power Rangers SUCKED as a TV show. Kinda feel like ya'll are talking about my momma… I don't like it when people talk about my momma.

    What you vibrate out from yourself is what you attract. You need to work on who you are to get what you want.

    This is true to a point but only slightly. Though I think it's mostly a product of the context in which people meet. Seriously, I can't detect the situations/issues in a woman's life that I don't know from 10 feet away. I promise you I can't. So if I'm a b*tch a$s dude, me approaching a woman isn't so much about the issues in her life. It's more about my GOALS, her LOOKS and the CONTEXT in which we meet. Unless there's a pheromone scent that says: 'I'm on that bullsh!t and you should be too', I honestly think people say the above quote as a cop out rather than giving it a decent analysis. We already have women questioning themselves in the wrong way about everything. This is not for them though… This is for ME. B/c I have to deal with that ish… Like I tell my female friends: "Sometimes it's really not you. Sometimes it's just the places you go expecting to meet people. Just saying…"

    1. @MeteorMan

      Your last paragraph…

      I'm so glad you said this. Its too general of a statement to say that a person attracts the type of person they are, it may or may not be true depending on the situation. If there's is a pattern of attracting the "wrong" person then the statement might apply and some reflection/changes need to be made.

      1. When you start asking people about their dating history… They tend to date the same people over & over…

        So, that give credence to that quote

    2. Kinda feel like ya’ll are talking about my momma… I don’t like it when people talk about my momma.

      No fair… Leave your mother & your anecdotal evidence out of this….

      Good try tho…

  25. “The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.” – @iamlabasha from Twitter

    Yeah like some other people I'm going to have disagree with this one without more context. Feminism was always a white woman's game because they wanted to be viewed as "more" than just their husband, kids, home – as they tended to have been college educated but were not living up to their "full potential". Read the Cinderella Complex for more insight. To which I say, that was a Black woman's dream – a good gubment job, a huzband, a house, and some kids who actin' right. And thus enters womanism – our response to feminism.

    There are so many factors that contribute to the demise of the Black family (it was on shaky ground anyway) including the crazy American welfare system that could not wrap its mind around the fact that even if a man was in the home and working, the family still might need government assistance in order to make ends meet. So, the man has go to go in order for you to get benefits. Read When Work Disappears for more insight.

    Also, I think that Black folks like to envision that pre-integration, pre-feminism, pre-crack era, pre- everything bad we were living in some utopia. I hear this A LOT from old people! Women kept their legs closed. People got married back then. People could whup each other's children. And on. Mmmm…ok I can look to my own family and count a few shotgun weddings. And an uncle who got an chick pregnant at 15 in 1960-something. The mother had the baby, finished high school, went to college and raised the boy on her own while my uncle was pretty much a non minfin factor. Sooo uhhh Black folks been having chex, making babies, and "not taking care of they kids" for a minute…Not that this makes it right, but I think we're dealing with generations of fatherlessness and powerlessness – a dangerous combination…

  26. <blockquote cite="comment-315282">

    DiDi: Mmmm…ok I can look to my own family and count a few shotgun weddings

    I am not naive in thinking that the world was perfect; however, there was way less issues within our community before 'others' had a hand in OUR community. We certainly have issues and some of those issues can be attributed to our own selfishness and ignorance. The traditional family in and of itself is NOT the problem. People not knowing what it takes to keep a marriage together are the problem. People not wanting to put in the work it takes for a marriage to work is the problem. People not wanting to be in committed relationships are the problem. Random casual chex is the problem. NOT the traditional family. Put the blame where it really lies, on our selfish immoral ways of today.

    The world at large still and will forever know that the traditional family is the best route. Personal issues and choices with that won't change that truth. I hear people continue to say that there is a better way…SHOW AND PROVE.

    There is no better way…the world is a direct example of our supposed better way….don't we see that all the ways we have tried to do away with the traditional way. What we are really trying to do away with are commitment, responsibility, honor, and respect. There will always be some problems in the traditional family, but the good that comes with it greatly outweigh our alternate choices.

    We have become so caught up in this “I wanna be happy” every moment of my life fairy tale that when a first bad argument happens in a marriage—some run. As far a people getting married for the wrong reasons…smh…I hear this lame argument more than I hear people say stop having sex for the wrong reasons! It is as if there are more arguments against marriage and more for casual sex!

    1. Well we were brought over here by 'others', so I think they have always had a hand in our community. Maybe we seemingly had more autonomy over our community back then – but that was by circumstance (racism, segregation, matter of survival) not by choice.

      My point about the shotgun marriage was not knocking the traditional family structure, but that people have rose-colored, revisionist views of history and how things were back then.

      My parents have been married for 38 years and my mother was just saying yesterday that my dad has always said that it's easy to walk away from your marriage. That people don't want to stay and fight. So I get it.

      But who teaches people how to be married? How to stay married? How to work it out? It's plenty of people who get married. And if you've ever seen an episode of Divorce Court – then don't know what to do once they're married. Who bring their own baggage and experiences. Case in point – even though my parents both grew up in a two parent household my paternal grandfather was more provider of the house, hands off the children while my maternal grandfather was very involved. My dad was prepared to go his dad's route and my mom had to be like, "nuh uh. You will take your kids to the park. You will spend time with them." Etc. He stepped up and did his part and was/is a great father – but what if he had been unwilling to change his way of thinking and upbringing?

  27. Really wish I had time to get into this. I'll just say feminism is a factor, but a very minor factor (if approximating a percentage, I believe it's culpable for 5%) in the destruction of the black family. Off the top of my head, other more important factors are fatherless households, welfare/the Great Society, integration, the drug epidemics (cosign Niesha), loss of religion (mainly Christianity, but also Islam), poor parenting, lack of identity, and job outsourcing/economic factors. Other minor contributers (less than feminism) are lack of variety in hip-hop (90% gangsta rap) and the subsequent dumbing down of it, and commercialism.

  28. “The black family didn’t really have problems until the feminist movement.”

    As a woman I feel pretty strongly about this, but I'd say in general families— and women in general–had far less problems prior to the feminist movement. Men overall have benefited the most from our so-called sexual liberation. Men barely have to work, or court a woman these days, in order to gain access to her body— so in many relationships, things like commitment and exclusivity are out of the question. I think when a woman has sex easily with a man— perhaps she is satisfying her own sexual urges, but it is also a non-verbal way of saying "I can be had without commitment". Perhaps a man will commit— that happens, but frequently it doesn't. That's why even when a woman becomes pregnant, men don't feel compelled to get married and complete that family unite because a- single parenthood has become a social norm, and b- when sex comes before commitment, commitment becomes a very low priority in that relationship. That's my two cents.

    1. Although it has f*cked up society to certain degree… I love me some easy, disease & crazy free p*ssy…

      I am glad a woman acknowledged this aspect… Another reason men & women can't be totally equal… It hurts the male-female dynamic…

  29. <blockquote cite="comment-315281">

    MeteorMan:

    Unless there’s a pheromone scent that says: ‘I’m on that bullsh!t and you should be too’,I honestly think people say the above quote as a cop out rather than giving it a decent analysis.

    true! I laughed at this but I agree with you.

  30. A good question to ask someone early on is “tell me about your relationship with your dad?” – @ShawnaMarieTV

    I think this is a good question, but it should be used in conjunction with many others. Some will use their strained relationships with their fathers as ammunition to do better, while it will adversely affect others. Context is crucial in this one. I think it helps me better understand a person more than anything.

    But i've def heard men say they try not to date women who don't come from two parent households. I think that is a bit far stretched and won't result in any resolution in some of the imbalance in relationships. However, I do semi-understand where they are coming from. But on that same note, it really isn't full proof cause i could name quite a few people who went awry even with a loving 2 family household.

  31. "The black family really didn't have problems until the Feminist Movement."

    This is a simplistic response to a complex issue.

    The Civil Rights Movement & the Feminist Movement (2nd wave) were happening at the same time in this country (1950s-1970s) & the majority of black women were involved in the CRM. The Vietnam War was also going on within that time frame, and many fathers didn't return home or returned mentally &/or physically damaged by the war. Also widespread drug addiction (heroin) became prevalent in urban centers.

    In other words there is more than one issue that contributed to the breakdown of the black family. And the Feminist Movement is least among them.

  32. As you said, the statement about, Tell me about your relationship with your dad? It is completly unfair. If anyone try to start a conversation with that kind of question i would stop it right there! Many men that has suffered the absence of their father -either because the man went away, or died or was an alcoholic, etc – want to do things better! So women should always be smarter and talk about certain subjects on it convenient moment.

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