Home Featured Abortion: Does the Man’s Opinion Even Matter

Abortion: Does the Man’s Opinion Even Matter

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Last week there was a news article about a man in New Mexico who took out a billboard accusing his ex-girlfriend of having an abortion without his knowledge (pictured above). Let us agree to ignore the fact that this is a strange looking fellow and, judging by his means of announcing this to the world, doesn’t seem particularly bright. No. Let’s focus on the issues at hand, such as: 1) When a woman gets pregnant, is she obligated to tell the man? 2) Once informed, does the man’s opinion matter in her decision to keep the baby or not?

This billboard has also sparked a new debate about the limits of “free speech” and privacy rights. Actually, his girlfriend sued him, but I believe he will win because the billboard does not name the ex-girlfriend. In fact, had she not sued him no one outside of their friends would even know who she is. Furthermore, I think the Supreme Court’s dumb decision earlier this year to allow the Westboro Baptist Church to protest at military funerals under the protection of Free Speech set the kind of precedent that will allow this type of billboard (and worse) to exist under the protection of law.

Specific to the questions I asked above, my opinion is that if a woman gets pregnant – and she knows who the father is – she should tell him. I say this because if a woman were pregnant by me, I would want to know. However, in real life, I have had more than one woman tell me that if she got pregnant she wouldn’t tell me. They had their various reasons but fortunately – well, as far as I know – these hypothetical situations never came to fruition.

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Concerning my opinion on abortion, I’m not pro-choice or pro-life. That’s a decision – whether you like it or not – for your elected lawmakers to dictate. I would not pressure a woman to keep or get rid of a baby one way or the other. If she wants to talk about it, that’s fine, great even. I just don’t buy into the mindset that I have the right to tell a woman what to do or what not to do with her body for 9 months and if she decides to keep it, as opposed to giving the baby up for adoption or having an abortion, then that decision may affect her for the rest of her life. The impact it will have on me is relative; e.g. I have the option to: commit to her, pay child support, etc. This is different from the physical and possibly mental toll it will undoutedly take on her regardless of her decision.

I would hope that whenever I get a woman pregnant it would be someone I can see myself being with or at least someone I can stand having in my life for a minimum of 18 years. On the other hand, I know “sh*t happens,” which is why I try to minimize placing my [Richard] in women I don’t like.

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This story brought up an interesting discussion on a talk radio show I frequently listen to from a perspective I had really only passively considered. The host, a woman, pointed out that while a woman can choose to keep the baby or not the man has absolutely no (legally defensible) choice in deciding if he wants to pay child support or not. In other words, if he wants to have the baby but the woman does not she can have an abortion without his consent. Conversely, if he does not want to have a baby, the woman can still have the child and legally force him to pay 18 years of child support despite the fact that he clearly stated from the beginning that he did not want a child.

What are your thoughts? Is a woman obligated to inform the man she’s pregnant by? After informing him, is the final decision up to the woman about whether or not she keeps the baby (versus an abortion/adoption)? Should the man have any say? Beyond the legalese, in your opinion, should a man be forced to pay child support regardless of if he stated from the beginning he did not want to have kids?

Remember boys and girls, it may take two to tango but it only takes one to have a baby. Wrap it up, b. WRAP. IT. UP.

Comment(225)

  1. i would want to know if a woman was pregnant with my child. and like you i wouldn't tell her what to do with her body. sure i could weigh in with my opinion but at the end of the day she's going to make the decision she feels is best regardless of what i think. this is why i'm trying to the best of ability to not have children outside of marriage. i honestly feel like if 1) if i got my wife pregnant she would WANT to keep the baby and 2) she would take my opinion on the matter of abortion more seriously than if we weren't married.

    1. I was debating with women on Clutch Magazine about the abortion issue…. And I was told that abortions happen alot even within a marriage… Didn't see that curveball coming…

      1. <blockquote cite="comment-315534">

        Adonis: I was debating with women on Clutch Magazine about the abortion issue…. And I was told that abortions happen alot even within a marriage… Didn’t see that curveball coming…

        Absolutely!!!

        There are circumstances when an unplanned pregnancy at that particular time although you two are married can still have it setbacks ( affordability, continuing education, not ready to be parants just yet, already have an infant, etc.) so an abortion is usually the next step.

  2. This is tough but as a man, I must say I agree with your stance on not making decisions on whether a woman keeps a pregnancy or not. BUT I do feel that if there was clear communication beforehand that the man did not want children, it is not fair for the woman to make a choice for him. I speaking of situations in which preventative measures have been used and pregnancy occurs any way. In regards to individuals' rights, the man's right is stripped from him in this situation. Both individuals made clear what they want out of the relationship, why is the man at fault if the woman decided to continue with a man who did not want children. Of course I'm assuming we are dealing with adults with health incomes.

    1. BUT I do feel that if there was clear communication beforehand that the man did not want children, it is not fair for the woman to make a choice for him. I speaking of situations in which preventative measures have been used and pregnancy occurs any way. In regards to individuals’ rights, the man’s right is stripped from him in this situation.

      Hmmmm…..

      The last time I checked (read) Vasectomies were 99.99% foulproof, so if a man is ADAMANT about not wanting any children EVER then wouldn't this be the best preventive measure because we all know condoms do break and some women are so fertile that even on the pill if they miss 1 or 2 days it's a wrap.

      1. Birth control pills work by keeping a constant level of hormone in your system to work. If you miss your pills for a few days, you should not be having sex or at least wear a condom if you don't want to get pregnant during that time. Forgetting your pills is called user error. That's the same thing with condoms, 2% error if used properly but 10% accounting for user error. If you forgot to take your pill wrap it up with a Trojan. (Lifestyles will definitely get you set up BIG TIME)

        But it seems you believe if a man says he doesn't want a kid he should be immediately taken to get a VASECTOMY!? Why should I completely cross ANY choice of having my own children in the future because at one point I didn't want children. What man is ever COMPLETELY adamant about ANYTHING for FOREVER? Matter-a-fact, what WOMAN is adamant about something FOREVER? You have to be just on both sides.

        1. But it seems you believe if a man says he doesn’t want a kid he should be immediately taken to get a VASECTOMY!?

          No that's not what I am implying at all, like I said only if he's 100% sure kids isn't something he wants now or in the future then by all means… Snip Snip!!!

        2. Well, if he is that sure, fine. I'm never 100% about what I am even wearing for the day. I just deal with a 85% like or greater and go for it.

          By the way, why aren't people bringing up women getting their tubes tied. Do most of the ladies here plan to just always go through with the child if they get pregnant or always want that option open? Why can't men do the same?

  3. This blog/"article" was terrible. A wall of text without even one compelling sentence. That's a fairly remarkable feat. Just a tip for you, young writer: Have an interesting point. Whether I agree with you completely or vehemently disagree with you ultimately doesn't matter…your writing should provoke a reaction other than apathy or a feeling that even clicking on your page was an absolute waste of time. Besides not having a point worth uttering, your writing is meandering…in other words it is poorly structured. Intro. Body. Conclusion. I don't quite understand what the point was to this blog, other than to announce that some guy in some state put up some sign about some chick aborting his child. Those elements should make for a very compelling opinion piece. Your writing lacked courage and did absolutely nothing with very weighty material.

    1. <blockquote cite="comment-315530">

      Jason:
      I don’t quite understand what the point was to this blog, other than to announce that some guy in some state put up some sign about some chick aborting his child. Those elements should make for a very compelling opinion piece.

      Then you did understand the point of this blog, because that was exactly it, "to announce that some guy in some state put up some sign about some chick aborting his child." I chose to merely present the facts about a story that many are probably unaware of. Further, I provided some general thoughts and discussion points that the story has generated both within myself and in the public that I found interesting.

      If this was an opinion piece, I would have labeled it as such. However, I did not. Abortion is already a sensitive enough subject. I felt no need to purposefully incite the audience. I trust that the readers on this site are intelligent enough to formulate their own opinion without me attempting to goad or "provoke a reaction" from them as you suggested. I'm better than that – and I would hope they would expect better than that of me.

      Thank you for your comment.

      1. *Hands Jason the Douchebag of the Week award.*

        Welcome aboard Big D! Wait, did I spell that correctly? We know your standards are high, lemme know!

    2. #CmonSon, I don't feel the love in your criticism… But if you truly cared about improving WIM's writing quality, you could have privately & diplomatically approached him on it… Your better than that… #NoQuan

      Other than that… Good Topic & I love how negroes is taking shots early in the morning…

      1. Why not just post a link then? Isn't the point of a blog/"article" to provide a personal and insightful point of view about a topic? Just turn this into a news aggregation piece and refer the reader to AP or Reuters rather cutting and pasting parts of the story along with your neutral ruminations. I do however commend you on approving this comment and responding to criticism. That takes balls. Many blogs that have comment moderation don't like criticism.

        @Adonis – you do it your way, and I'll do it mine. I'm criticizing the writing because it is deserving of criticism based on its content and form. I don't need to "privately and diplomatically" approach him. He's working out his writing in a public forum, so I'm going to critique it in a public forum. The same way you jump on a sports blog and clown somebody for having a bad game or criticize a sportswriter for his analysis of a game. But if you think WizMiz needs an internet bodyguard, by all means, white knight away.

        1. <blockquote cite="comment-315540">

          Jason: Why not just post a link then? Isn’t the point of a blog/”article” to provide a personal and insightful point of view about a topic? Just turn this into a news aggregation piece and refer the reader to AP or Reuters rather cutting and pasting parts of the story along with your neutral ruminations. I do however commend you on approving this comment and responding to criticism. That takes balls. Many blogs that have comment moderation don’t like criticism.

          Sir, the point of a blog is what the blogger makes of it. If I wanted only to post a link, I would have only posted a link. In this instance, I was more interested in people's opinions rather than listening to myself talk. If I wanted to hear myself ruminate, I would stand in a bathroom and talk to a mirror.

          It's not about having balls. Your criticism, while in my opinion misguided, is welcome. Honestly, I feel you are fishing in vain for an emotional reaction but to be frank, you are not significant enough to me to invoke that in which you seek. Attempting to persuade me with your opinion, while pretending it should be regarded as fact is where you – like many on the Internet – have failed. Anyway, I've said my piece. If it makes you feel better, feel free to have the next word, the last word, or the next 100 words. The floor is yours.

          God Bless. 🙂

        2. Jason,

          You got shit twisted. A blog doesn't always have to be personal. A blog can present news, opinion, facts, pics, video, music, whatever. How the writers choose to tackle issues is on that writer.

          I see nothing in Wiz's writing that would or should illicit this response.

          He stated the news story, gave background, gave his opinion on the subject matter from his perspective, and left it to the readers to discuss.

          Intro, Body, Conclusions.

          If you didn't like the article itself and the content, say that. To criticize the writing style with erroneous statements make you look less credible in your argument.

          Like you said, we dont need to moderate comments here, but we'll definitely respond!

  4. Oh man.. This is a topic akin to Religion and Politics to even bring up. Not least because it involves both subjects.

    I like that the radio host even thought to mention the aspect of the man being on the hook regardless of his wishes. While I would not dream of telling a woman she HAD to have the baby/abortion, the fair thing would be to introduce some way to take a man's choice in the matter.

    That she didn't want the child and had the abortion should not be a factor. She could have be on the pill without his knowledge and then there is no baby issue to debate. But the fact is many guys get stuck with the chick that feels like having a child when he does not want one. Sure.. it's easy to point and say.. you should have used protection. But in reality there is no mechanism to force the same lesson onto a woman.

    My thoughts on a solution are: if the father is known or the parents are not married prior to whatever the cut off is for abortion and he does NOT choose to support, then child support should be limited. That can be either in time of support or amount. Now if they get married he assumes full responsibility or he can sign papers indicating he accepts the full responsibility with no contest.

    This will never that will NEVER happen.

    1. What do you mean there's no mechanism to force the same lesson onto the woman??

      SHE'S THE ONE PREGNANT AND SHOWING, and statistically, the receiver is at higher risk for contracting STI's! So, the proof is in the pudding. So, it's not about pointing and blaming, it's about responsibility. No one is to blame but both parties are to assume responsibility. Seriously, thoughts like this coming from an adult who thinks he's grown is what really saddens me. We all want to feel and act grown without taking time to realize what it truly means to be grown.

      And your solution: "and if he does not choose to support, then support should be limited" What does that even mean? Again, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, unless you were raped, the moment you decided to have sexual intercourse, as a grown adult, you knew the risks include unwanted pregnancy (pill or not) and unwanted STI's (exclusivity and claims of being "clean" or not)! Point blank!

      From the moment you choose to proceed, your gripings about whether or not u choose to support is an exercise in futility. Your rights on the fetus ends right there. Such is life.

      1. Men can't 'assume responsibility' in this scenario. They are told by the women who are pregnant whether are not they are involved based on if they tell the man and the United States legal system. I hear what you're saying, but your argument doesn't really have any barring because we in fact don't have a choice in the matter unless we break the law by either disappearing in the night to avoid child support, kidnap you to strap you up to a machine so you can't abort the child, attack you so you'll miscarriage, or not pay child support and then have our wages garnished or be thrown in jail.

        We don't have any rights in this scenario and women are completely content about this double standard. And politicians won't push for any change in fear of losing the entire female vote. The best advice you can give is to find a way to enjoy sex with another man or abstain from sex entirely if you don't want the next 2 decades of your life put into the hands of other person that you have no ability in having a say about.

        1. <blockquote cite="comment-315553">

          Malik: I hear what you’re saying, but your argument doesn’t really have any barring because we in fact don’t have a choice in the matter unless we break the law by either disappearing in the night to avoid child support, kidnap you to strap you up to a machine so you can’t abort the child, attack you so you’ll miscarriage, or not pay child support and then have our wages garnished or be thrown in jail.

          Or you could wrap it up… Or you could not have chex

          You have options. Many of these pregnancies are not from a condom breaking but lack of.

        2. @Kema

          I heard & I listened, but what about out POST-Reproductive rights… (I know, I know, we have none, & we shouldn't get any…)

          Other than that, I agree

  5. When a woman finds out she is pregnant & she wants to keep it, that is her baby…

    When a woman finds out she is pregnant & she wants to abort it, it is a fetus or embryo…

    I would love to hear Beef Bacon's take on this…

    Good Morning Wisdom Khalifa,

    In the summer of 2010, I was heavily learning about the Men's Rights Movement, this very topic came up

    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/political-skeptic/20

    Basically summed up what that woman on the radio explained… Men have no Post-Reproductive Rights whatsoever…

    Now personally, I could care less because, I would set my relationships up where keeping & caring for the child is a priority & that decision is final… F*ck your rights….

    And if a woman killed my seed… I woukd forgive her, but ny enemies would get better treatment from me than she would… #NuffSaid

    Now as for the American male species, we should have SOME legal say to whether the kid lives, dies or goes up for adoption… How much say… IDK…

    As for the man who put up the billboard… Legally speaking, I will let the courts figure out the legality of his actions… They are the only opinion that matters…

    Dr. J, does this man's heart pump "Quan"…?

    Personally, we need more anti-abortions billboards… esp. In the Negro community… The abortion laws are being heavily abused… It is sickening

    The comments will be a thing of beauty today…

    1. I'm just curious as to how you know that abortion laws are being heavily abused. We've all heard of the woman who had 20+ abortions and was in the news, but as far as I know, that's the exception and not the rule.

      Also, I hope if you are for more anti-abortion billboards and decreasing the abortion rates in the AA community, that you are also for social services/government agencies that would make it easier for those women to care for their children. There should be more discussion in the AA community about the importance of BC and the realities of an active sex life. Policies would have to be made and public perception would have to be shifted so that AA babies would be desirable adoption options. All that to say, it is not as easy as putting up more "The most dangerous place is an AA womb" signs.

      Sorry for being so long-winded.

      1. Agreed!! TANF(welfare) isn't doing its job to care for women and children in poverty and our people are not being properly informed about birth control and they are not getting proper sex education. When I moved from a mostly white neighborhood in The Bay to a mostly Black neighborhood in Atlanta I had already had two comprehensive sex-ed and woman's health classes while most of my classmates only had a brief lesson about STDs and I was one of very few students in my high school who knew how to get free/low cost birth control and PAP smears from Planned Parenthood. We (our community) need to get educated before we can take a pro-choice/pro-life stance. Instead of putting money into billboards we should put money towards education, social services and government agencies!!!

      2. I loved the billboard when it came up… I do find it amazing how living in poverty gives you more liberty to make poor decision without repercussion…

        As far as abusing abortion laws… if 10+ million black babies & 40+ million babies total never got to see the light of day isn't abuse, idk what is…

        I think abortion has some uses, but clearing sexual irresponsible & poor seems to be of the top reasons to abort

        Maybe all those women got s*xually assaulted, or where not healthy enough to carry the baby for 9 months #ButIDoubtIt

      3. I personally think it is not COMPLETELY the government's responsibility to support women with children. A lot of women don't completely take into consideration all of the issues that arise just because of sex. There is so much birth control being GIVEN away for FREE, that there should not be unplanned pregnancies to begin with. But in the chance that a pregnancy does occur, there is more to think about than, "Do I want this child?"

        A lot of men AND women just think about themselves in that situation. BUT, the most important factor to think about is the child. Will the child be able to be brought up in a proper environment? Will the baby be able to have enough food, shelter and anything else he/she needed? If you are already in poverty and struggling by yourself, is it smart to bring another child in the world to deal with the same issues?

        I am not a big supporter of abortion, but I am not a supporter of selfish people either. One person cannot raise a child. A single parent needs help from friends, parents and the community. Back in the early 2000s, it was said that to raise a child it took over $500,000 per child. There are 13 year old girls having kids now a days. You can't even work a minimum wage job and you're having a baby?

        We don't need to have the government to give more money, we need ourselves to think things through more and be responsible so we don't end up in this situation to begin with.

  6. If I were ever put in a position in which I had an unexpected pregnancy that I wished to terminate, many factors would come in to play in regards to if I'd tell the father. If he was someone who I probably shouldn't have been having relations with anyway I'd terminate it with the quickness. If it were with someone I was emotionally tied to I can't really say. On the one hand, he does have the right to know, but on the other he's not going to know I'm pregnant unless I offer that information upfront.

    In regards to pregnancies, I feel that men don't really have much say so in what a woman can/can't do while she's carrying.

  7. I would hope and pray that I NEVER have a child out of wedlock, but if I did then I think that I would consider what the father had to say but ultimately it would be my decision. Actually, I know if I did get pregnant and I wasn't married I would for sure have an abortion so I would just listen to the father's opinion to make him feel like he had input but as soon as that pregnancy test read positive my decision would be made…kids are just not in the plans for at least another ten years.

    If in some alternate universe I did have a kid out of wedlock and the father didn't want it I do think that he should be responsible to pay some child support, if he wants to be in the child's life. If he didn't want to have anything to do with the kid then I would just tell him to kick rocks and never come around me or my child ever again and he could keep his money. But personally I think if a man didn't want to have anything to do with his child then he really doesn't deserve to be called a man at all, regardless if he wanted it or not he was involved in the act and should take some responsibility for that.

  8. Hm…If I was pregnant by a man I was not in a relationship(that was long term and serious) with and I wanted to abort, I would not tell him. I would just do it.

    However, if our relationship was serious then I would discuss it. If I would abort, it would depend on a lot of things. But I dont plan on having any biological children of my own, so I make sure pregnancy wont be an issue with me.

    As far as the child support issue…I feel like this, if he does not want the child and he has made it clear…I most likely would not ask him for anything. I dont think you should have to ask a man to do for his child. So if he doesnt want to have anything to do with me or the child then so be it. I would not bother him. I wouldnt feel comfortable taking money from a man that didnt want his child to have it.

  9. This is truly a difficult question to answer. I want to say that a man's opinion matters, but he doesn't have to go through pregnancy. If the woman can financially provide for her child and has a male role for it, then perhaps a dude wanting the kid is irrelevant. However, even if a dude doesn't want the kid and refuses to be a part of his offspring's life, he's not really punishing the mother but the child. No matter how wrong the woman might be, the child is who will suffer.

    If a man convinces a woman not to abort their child, what happens to the kid? (I'm assuming she did not want it and knew that she couldn't care for it properly.) Does the man take the kid that he didn't want her to abort or does he expect her to deal with it?

    1. The last paragraph is a good one. If she doesnt want the child(even after the child is born) and he does, is he willing to have sole custody? And let the woman have visitation?

    2. Lets say the man does take the child and allows the woman to have visitation. Will the law require her to pay him child support (even though she didn't want the child)?

      1. <blockquote cite="comment-315570">

        KevLow: Will the law require her to pay him child support (even though she didn’t want the child)?

        I know women that pay child support… I think as long as they do not have some type of agreement in which she gives up all rights she would have to pay.

    3. Well, there was a case like that a few years ago in front to the Supreme Court. The woman wanted an abortion but the man want to keep his child. He even had agreed to pay for all services as well as cover any maternity leave costs. The Court ruled in his favor. The laws of the land basically say besides providing his seed and his money, the father is a non-factor in child-rearing. I'm not talking about true deadbeats but is it just that men have no control at all in this issue?

    4. <blockquote cite="comment-315544">

      Lina: If a man convinces a woman not to abort their child, what happens to the kid? (I’m assuming she did not want it and knew that she couldn’t care for it properly.) Does the man take the kid that he didn’t want her to abort or does he expect her to deal with it?

      Good question. I dont know the legal answer but the hypothetical would be, "yes." So, for example, using the story above, I believe (or assume) the man would have wanted to take responsibility for the child. I dont see why a man would convince a woman to keep the child if he didnt want it but stranger things have happened.

    5. However, even if a dude doesn’t want the kid and refuses to be a part of his offspring’s life, he’s not really punishing the mother but the child. No matter how wrong the woman might be, the child is who will suffer.

      Exactly!!!!!!

  10. I hate the whole abortion debate because this (among others) is a topic where its hard if even possible to both be objective and take a side.

    On the woman's behalf, it is her body and the woman bears the brunt of the "consequences" when she gets pregnant. So i can understand why the ball is ultimately in her court when it comes time to make the decision. But i do think that if the father is known, regardless of the relationship status that is shared, he should be consulted about the final decision.

    As for men, sorry to say but my opinion is that having a baby is an unpredictable outcome of having sex. And knowing that you have very few legal options when it comes to making decisions regarding childbirth and abortion and child support, that whole "well i told her i didn't want to have a kid from the jump" excuse is pretty much bs. I'm sure she didn't want to get pregnant either but here we are. And now, i don't think men should have the legal right to say they aren't paying child support because they didn't want a kid. Why should you get the legal right to bang without consequence?!? Women aren't afforded that luxury (which should make them make better life decisions in regards to who they give access to there goodies too but thats neither here nor there) Once the pregnancy begins, if the woman chooses to carry it to term, there's no escaping the reality for her. Even if she doesn't. she still has to actually go through with deciding to and actually having an abortion- which is no easy feat im sure. the average chick ain't just laying up having abortions all willy-nilly (or at least i hope not). Whereas for a man, you don't HAVE to be there for the pregnancy, You don't even HAVE to be there for the child (minus child support payments which you don't even have to pay if the woman doesn't seek it), At the end of the day, unless you're some seriously wealthy person, paying child support is still way cheaper and extremely less time consuming than having to raise the child (assuming that as the man you decide not to be an active parent)

    Ugh, I hate that im here rambling on and on but im sure you can see where im going with all of this so imma just leave with this: men may not have legal rights but they definitely have choices (as do women) So please ladies and gents, lets make good decisions in life 🙂

    1. "Why should you get the legal right to bang without consequence?!? Women aren’t afforded that luxury"

      really? you wrote that on an blog ABOUT abortion? ever heard of adoption or safe haven laws?

      Please do more research before making clear uninformed statements.

      1. yes, yes i did say that. Adoption alludes to the fact that the WOMAN not the man, endured 9 months of pregnancy (which has its own health and social stigmas) and childbirth. SOunds like a consequence to me.

        1. What about abortion? That's not an option? I hate debates like this because the solution is usually based off what the majority of the female consensus is. All you have to do is throw the shoe on the other foot to clearly overthrow that debate.

          Majority of women say "You decided to have unprotected sex so if I get pregnant you should take full responsibility of the baby".

          That answer only works if the woman wants the baby and the guy doesn't.

          If you throw the show on the other foot then woman says "Even though we know that having unprotected sex can lead to a baby, I'm not financially, emotionally, or educated enough to have a baby or I just don't like you like that so I'm having an abortion. The man then has no say and the biologically responsible argument falls to the wayside.

          So the true answer is both adults should agree on whatever decision is made. That would kill a lot of these single parent homes, men that hate woman, woman that hate men, and children that end up becoming negative due to growing up in a negative environment where both parents didn't want the child. All you have to do is turn on Maury to see how many lopsided parental situations come up due to two people having unprotected sex.

          But that's how it is in the West where our laws our based off what the majority of woman want in these particular circumstances.

  11. From an ethical standpoint, the health of the mother is number one, including her mental health.

    Thanks to Roe vs Wade, a woman has the right to make the DECISION as to whether to abort her unborn fetus up until viability (fetus able to live outside the womb). An abortion during the 3rd trimester is only indicated if the mother's health is in danger.

    Unfortunately, when it comes to a fetus, the mother has all the rights. When the baby is born, then legally, the biological father is equally responsible for "its" care. The mother has all the rights because she is the human oven. Therefore, legally, the woman has no obligation to inform her seed donor of her pregnant status and her desire to have an abortion. Of course, morally, she does.

    You mentioned that if you didn't want the child and she decided to keep it, don't you have any say so? Again, legally NO! Unless you, the man, was raped, your say-so began before you inserted. Sex is a grown-up act, with very real and grown-up consequences.

    And the opposite? You want to keep the child and she doesn't? Again, legally, you cannot fight for custody of a fetus. Unless she fell into a coma while she was pregnant, and named you as the surrogate decision maker in her advanced directive, then it's still her decision. And even then, as a health care proxy, you'd be required to act in "substituted judgement" of the patient's wishes, were she competent enough to do so. Therefore, if she mentioned even once that she had no desire of keeping the baby before she fell into a coma, by law, you're required to uphold her wishes.

    So, the question you're asking is a moral one, I presume. However, and unfortunately so, laws in the U.S has made that a moot point.

    1. I know u asked for opinions beyond the legal issues, but honestly, we all know what the moral code should look like. As an adult, becoming pregnant now should not come as a surprise when acts are pro-creation are exercised! It's always a risk and the possibility should be discussed beforehand, inasmuch as possible.

      So, the moral code was lacking from the beginning…therefore, it's ludicrous to demand it after the fact.

      And now all we have is the law.

      And unfortunately, the law makes it a double standard for the would-be-father, but the mother is the one who carries all the risks and therefore, she should have to make the decision for her mental and physical health.

      It's not ideal, but consequences are consequences.

    2. <blockquote cite="comment-315549">

      Tash: Unfortunately, when it comes to a fetus, the mother has all the rights. When the baby is born, then legally, the biological father is equally responsible for “its” care. The mother has all the rights because she is the human oven. Therefore, legally, the woman has no obligation to inform her seed donor of her pregnant status and her desire to have an abortion. Of course, morally, she does.

      Good point.

  12. Legislation regarding abortion, child support and custody is wholly biased in favor of women. It's a travesty, but what are you gonna do?

  13. *my* opinion wouldn't matter. such is the luck of the draw. Legislation regarding abortion, child support, custody, and court of opinion, as noted above..is in favor of the female until there is a Roe vs. Wade for men passed. and since that sort of equality will not come about in my lifetime…

    #wrapitup #4times

  14. As im reading the comments (from the men specifically) who are b*tching and moaning about laws being in favor of women and not having choices…let me just say this: your choice was to sleep with women with whom you desire to have children with and not sleep with women you don't. The End.

    And if you want laws to be in your favor…try getting pregnant. There are some situations in life that just "aren't fair" and this is one of em. Deal with it.

    PS: Its a very sad day when we have so many people coming forward about not being able to avoid child support/force a woman into having an abortion and very few men complaining about not being given the choice to be a father to their child. smh. I knew i shouldn't have come in here today lol.

    1. This is patently false. There isn't any 'b!tching and moaning'. There hasn't been a male poster thus far who is hanging his head because of lack of equal rights. And NO ONE is suggesting women should be forced to have an abortion. If you want to create an actual dialogue, great, but have same damn class and not make outright lies about people's positions. Please take that false righteous indignation elsewhere.

      1. (-__-)

        Perhaps you should read both my posts before speaking.

        Anywho, im not creating a dialogue, im sharing my thoughts just like everyone else. If my sole purpose was to create a dialogue, i'd do my own write-up on my own blog.

        Yes there has been passive b*tching and moaning…which at the end of the day still equates to the same thing. I didn't pull that out of mid-air. And my comment regarding what people are upset about (the man not wanting the baby vs the woman not wanting the baby) is both in regards to the comments here and observations in real life. While my comment may have been extreme, it was certainly not a "false righteous indignation" Im just stating my opinion.

        And color me confused but since when did any of this have to do with my having class?

        Meanwhile, back at the ranch…

    2. "Its a very sad day when we have so many people coming forward about not being able to avoid child support/force a woman into having an abortion and very few men complaining about not being given the choice to be a father to their child. smh. I knew i shouldn’t have come in here today lol."

      Was it also sad when women rejoiced once they got the right to abort? And what about the women who clearly state their right's to abort? still a sad day?

      Or is it ONLY sad when men want the option to opt out?

      1. hmmm, i've never rejoiced at the right/option/however you want to phrase it to have an abortion nor is that the issue im addressing as the point (or at least my understanding of it) is that men have no legal rights over whether or not their sexual partner bears their child and having to pay child support thereafter… so your barking up the wrong tree.

      2. Right, wrong or indifferent… Rick you are funny… please comment more

        You got some feminazis on these boards, so just remind yourself when you meet these women, just don't them pregnant, get you a more "cooperative" girl to have a baby with….

        It is hard for me to dialogue with people who think it is okay to kill their seed… or are even open to that kind of act…

        And until s*x becomes something that a woman has absolutely NO control over, then I will re-consider my position on this…

    3. "As I’m reading the comments (from the men specifically) who are b*tching and moaning about laws being in favor of women and not having choices…let me just say this: your choice was to sleep with women with whom you desire to have children with and not sleep with women you don’t. The End. "

      The women also had a choice to sleep with a man who put a ring on her finger and not sleep with that guy as well. As far as getting pregnant goes it’s both parties fault there is protection for men and women. If both men and women would have a discussion before having sex with each other about pregnancy and what should be done if such occurs (some do but many don’t) I think it would save both parties a head ache.

      I’m a women It's my body so I'm going to do what suites me best, but i will also take into account that what might suite me best might cause some problems down the line.

      Also I know when you are married that your husband has to sign papers with you to get your tubes tied because it’s a permanent procedure but what about if you want to get an abortion?

  15. The abortion debate as a whole is a true exercise in futility. Since I've recently read up on rhetoric and building arguments, it's much easier to see why this "debate" will never get anywhere and that's largely because there isn't necessarily any common ground to be had between Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. (Though as I tweeted recently, I'm often amused at those on the Pro-Life side of the argument saying that ALL life precious are usually Pro-Death Penalty. o_O)

    HOWEVER, the Abortion Debate as a whole was not WIM's intention today. It's men's rights/options in the discussion. Overall, I think it's a very one-sided, unfair, double-standard. I've often asked before "Who's choice is it in a Pro-Choice debate?" It may be your body, but it's our baby. On the flip side, if she decides to keep the baby, despite the alleged father's wishes (Mama's baby is Daddy's maybe), he gets hit with the "I didn't make this baby by myself/It takes two to Tango" line(s). So ultimately, when there's a decision to be made, it's legally only the woman's… but when there's responsibility to be had THEN it's to be shared. WTF is that?

    And what about adoption? When there are MANY couples who're dying to have kids and can't, why not put your child in a better situation and give them a better life? If you're pregnant and the father has expressed he doesn't want a child but you don't want an abortion, why is adoption not an option? Why isn't this a valid argument in family court? Why hasn't a judge ever said "Wayment, you decided to have a child despite knowing you were unable to support the child on your own and knowing that the father had no desire to have a child. Now you come to me and play the victim role as if you had no options and/or responsibility in the matter???"

    Also, before I get the "outraged" responses I'll kindly ask you to do a quick check on how and when family court laws began becoming very skewed towards women. I'll give you a hint: Think about the Mad Men era, when typically only men had professional level jobs and women were by and large secretaries/assistants.

    1. (Though as I tweeted recently, I’m often amused at those on the Pro-Life side of the argument saying that ALL life precious are usually Pro-Death Penalty. o_O)

      Interesting… I need some examples of this…

      I think if someone commits an henious crime & the public wants him dead, they should get him before the police do… But once the state have them, they shouldn't be allowed to kill 'em…

      It is what it is tho…

      1. although i understand the sentiment behind wanting a person who committed a heinous crime to be punished, even to death; you cannot, in the same breath, claim that all life is of value and precious and that women who have abortions are murderers. if you are pro-life, you are pro-life. i will never understand anti-abortionists who blow up abortion clinics or stalk and kill doctors who administer abortions in avenge of their "pro-LIFE" ideologies.

        unless you are pro-life from a Biblical standpoint and that only, the logic doesn't follow. even then, there are inconsistencies. and this is not to say that i am for or against abortion, just saying that it doesn't follow sane logic to say one person who ends a life is a murderer and another who ends one is a saint.

    2. <blockquote cite="comment-315560">

      TWIsM: HOWEVER, the Abortion Debate as a whole was not WIM’s intention today. It’s men’s rights/options in the discussion. Overall, I think it’s a very one-sided, unfair, double-standard. I’ve often asked before “Who’s choice is it in a Pro-Choice debate?” It may be your body, but it’s our baby. On the flip side, if she decides to keep the baby, despite the alleged father’s wishes (Mama’s baby is Daddy’s maybe), he gets hit with the “I didn’t make this baby by myself/It takes two to Tango” line(s). So ultimately, when there’s a decision to be made, it’s legally only the woman’s… but when there’s responsibility to be had THEN it’s to be shared. WTF is that?And what about adoption? When there are MANY couples who’re dying to have kids and can’t, why not put your child in a better situation and give them a better life? If you’re pregnant and the father has expressed he doesn’t want a child but you don’t want an abortion, why is adoption not an option? Why isn’t this a valid argument in family court? Why hasn’t a judge ever said “Wayment, you decided to have a child despite knowing you were unable to support the child on your own and knowing that the father had no desire to have a child. Now you come to me and play the victim role as if you had no options and/or responsibility in the matter???”

      Pertaining to the part I highlighted in bold, that's a good point, regardless if people agree/disagree. I will say it has been interesting, so far, to see the number of women that are ok pursuing abortion. No judgment, as I guess that is why the option exist.

      Regarding adoption, I'm also surprised how few consider this a viable option. I, however, did date a girl who was adopted and she was heavily against the process because she struggled for years trying to discover her "identity" and her biological parents. I believe when she finally found out – post our relationship – they had passed or there were some other reasons why she couldn’t contact them, very devastating for her. I'm getting on a tangent, but I guess I'm saying there is obviously no clear panacea for these various issues.

  16. I am saddened at the fact that some ladies are stating that they may or may not tell the father of their unborn child that they are pregnant in the first place. That is so selfish in my opinion. Yes, its your body but damn…you can sleep with him but not even let him know that he has impregnated you?! I'm lost. Even if you decide not to keep the child, its definately his right to know. No, maybe not his LEGAL right, but put the shoe on the other foot, wouldn't YOU like to know if there was a chance you may be a parent someday? My opinion on abortion is to each his own but it hurts to see the blatent disregard for the feelings of the person you decided to lay down with. He should have an opportunity to at least have an opinion on what may become of his unborn child. Not even telling him about the pregancy is just plain wrong. 🙁

    1. Morning HP,

      First of all, I can't see your avi from here… But you look like you have nice breast & anice stomach, but that is neither here nor there…

      You gotta understand that some women are so control freaky (I am too, BTW, but i don't have a problem with women running my life if they know what they doing…), that they sleep with losers, so when serious issues come up, they have reason to justify why they don't care about Ray Ray's opinion, he is just a sperm donor…

      But, again, at least I know which women to avoid in my lifetime…

  17. I normally don’t discuss my views of religion, politics, or abortion. (And I plan on keeping it that way)

    I understand that people are passionate about their beliefs, so it’s rare that you can have a fair debate or discussion of these topics. However, this is why I am pro- wait until your married. I’m not saying it will solve everything (Heck I’m still a single parent even though I was married). But I think that communication is the answer no matter the eventual choice or outcome.

    1. Well, you have three type of single moms…

      Widows, Divorcees, & baby mamas…

      When I be ragging on single mothers, be hating on the third type… Cause they hurt their communities & their children the most…

      At least when you get married & divorce, you have more of a chance to get your seeds taken care of, financially… And guys can't just up & leave a family as easily as bfs & casual partners can…

    2. @Rxbeauty: 1) Thanks for commenting. 2) "this is why I am pro- wait until your married" made me laugh – in a good way. I figured this would come up – and while I agree – it's kind of like the people who propose that getting rid of all vehicles will stop car accidents. While true, is it really a practical policy for the majority of the public at large?

  18. This is a double standard that will be present as long as people don't start saying something. I've never understood how any women can call a pregnancy an accident when there are so many female birth control options. All men have are condoms (which can break, holes can be poked in them etc,) . Vasectomies technically don't count because if you're under 30 many doctors will be hesitant to perform the operation and im pretty sure most people aren't waiting til they're 30 to have sex.

    Its not bitching and moaning to voice a legit grievance and double standard, women have entire tv shows like Oprah to do just that but when a man voices his opinion, its bitching? Let's make that 2 for 2 on the double standards while we're at it and for anyone who vehemently stands by the silly notion of "pregnancy can be an accident" realize that every woman alive today who DOESN'T have children, but HAS had sex proves you wrong.

    I mean, are they doing something different from women who have "accidents?" Im pretty sure their anatomy and reproductive system are the same as any women with children, they simply made a different choice, and alot of times it didn't involve aborting a child.

    1. If condoms are all men have, then they need to use them at all times and women need to be more proactive in insisting that men do. This really isn't an issue of double standards but really an issue of us setting higher standards pertaining to the quality of our relationships, how we operate within relationships, and the ultimately for ourselves.

    2. I've heard that there male birth control will soon be a viable option. How many guys you think would use that option?

      1. <blockquote cite="comment-315598">

        Kema: I’ve heard that there male birth control will soon be a viable option. How many guys you think would use that option?

        I've heard about this but I'm going to sit it out until male birth control 2.0 comes out and they work out all the "kinks." You saw what happened with the first iPhone.

      2. Even if they have that option how many men do yuo think would forget to tak etheir pill in the morning..lol think about how many women do that and times it by 3

        1. *lol*

          Actually I don't think many men will forget to take the pill because the stakes are too damn high if they do, so I think men will be more diligent in taking their bc pills.

        2. I really think it only is a problem for people who don't care about the issue seriously enough. If you have anxiety or depression, those people have to remember to take their medicine daily or they face consequences. Birth Control is the same way.

          I really think if guys knew they didn't have to wear a condom and just take a pill to avoid pregnancy, most guys would be on it. If they aren't worried about STD's also…

  19. I hear what all the fellas are saying about there being double standards and all. And you're right, when it comes to all things family related, be it divorce, custody issues, or reproductive rights, the courts do favor women but you know what … that's life. We have to deal with it.

    You can't work your job getting paid 50 to 70% more than the average woman working the same job and complain about a double standard. You can't get consistently get promoated over women who are equally qualified or more qualified and then complain about a double standard. You can't sleep with 250 women before you turn 30 and not have anyone look at you funny and then complain about a double standard. Men complaining about double standards when it comes to a woman's reproductive rights is the gender equivalent to white folks being upset about 'reverse racism.' If given the choice, how many men would give up all the benefits of being a man in this man's world and in return we get to have fair and equitable laws as far as reproductive rights are concerned? Life ain't fair. Strap up.

    1. I agree with what A said in regards to rights. If we are striving for a society of equality, then men's rights also have to be considered. Over the years, things have change dramatically for women in a mostly positive manner. Men, in comparison, have many of their rights overlooked. There are inequalities for women in areas such as the workplace, however there is progressive movements working to rectify this. Where is such a movement for men?

      1. Yeah, I'm gonna have to cosign with CVal on this. I understand the advocacy for women in the comment, but just because we win on a, b, and c doesn't mitigate or mean we can't feel a certain type of way or try to change x, y, z. I wonder what life would be like if civil rights leaders just said "we gotta deal with it" and just accepted things for what they were.

    2. Stop, please. We're all supposedly big kids. Everything doesn't need to be bunched up in binary distinctions and Heaven or Hell arguments. It's perfectly possible we can discuss and work on both simultaneously. Just because something worse is happening doesn't mean you should ignore the problem at hand. Following this type of logic, every society should work on one problem at a time until it's solved while everything else burns to the ground because this one thing is more important than everything else.

      You can't properly develop a QB just by having him doing solo drills. He needs to work with his WRs to gain some type of rhythm with them. You need to build an offensive line so he isn't getting pressured or sacked every snap. You need a running back so you aren't passing 60+ times a game and destroying your QB's arm. In order for women's rights to advice, they have to also address the hypocrisy/double standards within as well as with men's rights. Unless of course they're separatist who are going to form colonies with only exclusively men or women.

      1. @Malik essentially captured my thoughts. I will add TMIMITW, saying double standards are ok here because we have greater double standards there seems to negate the entire argument about double standards in general. In other words, it seems to be that you’re saying because double standards exist for both sexes, both sexes should simply ignore and accept them? Granted, I see what you're saying in theory, and I agree. I'm always saying "it is what it is.”

        Still, while I recognize it is what it is, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t consider what it should be. For example, the Civil Rights and later the Women’s Movement were inspired by the very decree to change the “it is what it is” mindset. Obviously, improvement is still needed on all fronts. With that said, that doesn’t mean we need to remain complacent in the meantime and accept these inequalities.

        Due to law, personal opinion and beliefs, morals, etc this entire discussion is fairly hypothetical, which is why I didn’t bother dropping a strong opinion in the write-up itself because I wasn’t trying, nor did I believe I would be successful, in changing anyone's mind. That wasn’t my goal. I was more interested in seeing the audience's opinions, which is why I'm grateful for the comments.

        I guess my follow-up question becomes: if/when woman begin making equal pay to men, will these laws go to the waste side? I doubt it. Additionally, there are already some cities where women make more then men. Specifically, for African American women I believe this is already the pattern, if not already the standard. I debated with Dr. Jay about this before – and we agreed to disagree – but women of all races are graduating at higher rates than men are and, in fact, women of all races are pursuing higher levels of education than men. I would imagine that eventually, perhaps not in our lifetimes, this would mean women would begin making equal or more than men (depending on their career). Of course, I think that is a little off topic but it is what it is.

    3. eh. i'm a woman so i suppose i should zealously agree with you, and i do understand your point.

      but… you getting a raise before me and me choosing whether or not you will be a father after we BOTH laid down and made the baby together (excluding rape, incest, etc) knowing that it was a possibility, are on two completely different planes.

      yes, the burden of carrying and raising a child is on a woman if a man fails to take an active role, but all women know this and are just as responsible if not more so, to make sure we can handle the outcome. so while i do appreciate and understand your point, i don't think that's valid reason to just chuck a man's moral right to have a say in what happens. she may not listen or agree, but just totally disregarding him and not at least sitting down and talking about it like mature adults seems unfair.

  20. @ Most- 2 wrongs don't make a right. No one here is suggesting the issues women have aren't serious (at lleast I hope not) but men in America have very real issues too whether people want to acknowledge them or not. Men make up the majority of suicides, the homeless, and the war dead, but you don't hear much on the 6 o'clock news about those issues and probably won't.

  21. It makes common sense for a woman to discuss the pregnancy with the man who knocked her out since it takes two to make a baby (or fetus), but then again, the Law is the Law, and women are the ones who go through stress/problems carrying one; so they are the ones who are better in making that call and not the government. It's hard to reason this issue out without touching the issue of morality.imma still wrap it up until I'm emotionally ready for any pregnancy drama.#teamwrapitup

  22. <blockquote cite="comment-315546">

    Lady Ngo: Why should you get the legal right to bang without consequence?!? Women aren’t afforded that luxury

    really? you wrote that on an blog ABOUT abortion? ever heard of adoption or safe haven laws?

    Please do more research before making clear uninformed statements.

  23. I think you should let the guy know…it's just a respect thing to me. I think, the final decision is the Woman's but she should at the very least inform the Man of her intentions…or they should have a discussion about what it is they both would like to do…….

  24. Letting him know gives him the chance to voice his opinion and he at least deserves that much. Right?? He did participate (and hopefully had fun) before and during the release of his seed so why exclude him at this crucial point. With that being said, If you're a woman having sex with a man who doesn't feel the need to tell this man that you're pregnant and considering an abortion: (1) you shouldn't be having sex; (2) you shouldn't be having sex with that man; (3) you need to do some self-evaluating; and (4) you need to evaluate your relationship. I understand that some relationships are of a booty-call nature, in which case this should be a non-issue and you should re-read points 1-4.

  25. I would inform the man that I'm pregnant by at the point that my decision is made, and then we can talk. If his decision is different from mine, then that will also be discuss. In some unfortunate circumstances making a decision becomes an ongoing debate. If I've already made my decision, then I will just tell him my reasons. Going back and forth between weeks4 and 5 is a big inconvenience, this happens quite frequently, and I honestly wouldnt want to delay making this decision. So, yes I think the man should be informed. The final decision should be up to the female…she dictates what her body will undergo for 9 months. If you can stick it…pay for it…

  26. I won't claim to know what people should and should not do with their free time in their relationships. What i think men fail to consider when faced with the option of deciding to terminate a pregnancy is how much influence their opinion actually carries. Whether it be a one night stand, or a long term relationship, a woman who is on the fence can be swayed to make a potentially bad decision if both parties aren't in agreement…So maybe its just easier to make an often extremly difficult executive decision without the feedback of the other party.

    And i am sure this billboard is just one of several indications of this man's sanity, and she decided she didn't want to be saddled with that for the long haul…i can respect that decision.

  27. As a personal rule, i stay out of the pro-life/pro-choice debate. I strongly believe that the person who has to go through 9months of pregnancy then child-birth, whose life has to come to a complete stop and/or go through a drastic change during and after this, whose responsibility it is in most cases to raise the child and still have to deal with everything else? That's the person that should have the final say.

    Telling the guy about a pregnancy is as a courtesy but not mandatory. It would be unfair to take the decision on whether to be in the kids life or not, away from him. However, if he has clearly stated before hand that he doesn't want kids, then she has no right to ask for child support if she goes on to have a child.

    At the end of the day, the billboard is validation that she took the right decision. I say since its her body that has to go through the process and her life that gets re-structured, its her decision that counts. Men can get a say, when it becomes possible for them to take over a pregnancy.

  28. I understand some of the men frustration on this post

    But just like I tell the ladies ;( If he was a deadbeat boyfriend why wouldn’t you think he would be a deadbeat father) . I’m going to tell the men this as well. If you are sleeping with a young woman and you know you don’t want her to have your seed WRAP IT UP each and every time. I understand that condoms do break but come on a lot of these unplanned pregnancies are coming from that one time you choose to do the pull out method instead of just reaching over and grabbing a condom

    Men don’t let that billboard have you thinking that pro-life group care about your rights in the situation, hell they don’t care about the women’s right's carrying the baby, their just using you guys, trying to get your support.

    At the end of the day the responsibility always falls in the woman lap, abortion, (if you’re not living together) primary custody over the child, fighting for child support.

  29. <blockquote cite="comment-315564">

    TheMostInterestingManInTheWorld: You can’t work your job getting paid 50 to 70% more than the average woman working the same job and complain about a double standard. You can’t get consistently get promoated over women who are equally qualified or more qualified and then complain about a double standard. You can’t sleep with 250 women before you turn 30 and not have anyone look at you funny and then complain about a double standard. Men complaining about double standards when it comes to a woman’s reproductive rights is the gender equivalent to white folks being upset about ‘reverse racism.’ If given the choice, how many men would give up all the benefits of being a man in this man’s world and in return we get to have fair and equitable laws as far as reproductive rights are concerned? Life ain’t fair. Strap up.

    Delurking to emphatically cosign all of this. The advantages men receive over a lifetime don't really equate, in my mind, with being left out of the pregnancy loop. To me, it's a private, medical decision between the woman & her doc for the entire gestational period.

    To answer the (well-done) post's questions: Is it courteous & ethical to inform the potential father? Sure. Necessary? Not in utero, not to me. Once the baby's born, what say should the father have? If the couple's married, it's a joint decision they need to hash out. If they're not, and the father objects to paying support, he should be required to waive his parental rights. Essentially, he's admitting his inability to parent, for whatever reason, & "adopting" the child out to the mom. Of course, I've never faced these dilemmas, so it's all theoretical for me.

    1. <blockquote cite="comment-315592">

      Once the baby’s born, what say should the father have? If the couple’s married, it’s a joint decision they need to hash out. If they’re not, and the father objects to paying support, he should be required to waive his parental rights. Essentially, he’s admitting his inability to parent, for whatever reason, & “adopting” the child out to the mom. Of course, I’ve never faced these dilemmas, so it’s all theoretical for me.

      Men object to pay child support and waive their rights to their children all the time.. and you know what we call them DEADBEAT dads.

      1. I meant by legally signing them over, not skipping court appearances/ducking the mom out. I don't think such a man would be a deadbeat more than any other person placing their child for adoption. (This may be a minority view, though.)

        1. No I understand what you’re saying, but then that opens a nasty little door of men ditching their responsibilities to women they may have asked to have their child, but then again this option may have both men and women start warping it up more frequently .

    2. <blockquote cite="comment-315592">

      JJ: To answer the (well-done) post’s questions: Is it courteous & ethical to inform the potential father? Sure. Necessary? Not in utero, not to me. Once the baby’s born, what say should the father have? If the couple’s married, it’s a joint decision they need to hash out. If they’re not, and the father objects to paying support, he should be required to waive his parental rights. Essentially, he’s admitting his inability to parent, for whatever reason, & “adopting” the child out to the mom. Of course, I’ve never faced these dilemmas, so it’s all theoretical for me.

      @JJ: I'm ignorant on this (I have no kids and I'm not a lawyer), so if a man signs over his parental rights that negates the legal requirement for him to pay child support?

      @Smilez_920: Honestly? You seem to be addressing the stigma, rather than the (possible) solution. If you don't want to be a father, you don’t want to be a father and, as a result, you have to accept the consequences if that is the route you choose to take. It's like the woman who does a lot of scandalous s*xual activities then gets upset because she is socially stigmatized. If you don’t want the title, don’t perform the actions. So, if you don’t want to be labeled a "dead beat father" don’t do deadbeat fatherly actions.

      1. I was just throwing that out as a potential solution; I have no idea how it works now. That second bold sentence should've read, "…he would be admitting…". ***Disclaimer: Also a childless, non-lawyer!***

        1. @JJ: I also realized after I commented originally that even if that's true, the man would still have to get the woman to agree to let him sign away his legal rights, if that is even a viable option. You see, I doubt a woman that wants child support would agree to let a man sign away his legal rights because that would mean she would be losing the child support too. I dont see that happening.

          It would be more in the vein of two people agreeing that the man doesnt have to pay child support and him wanting to have that in writing. I'm still not sure that would stand up in court if she ever changed her mind.

      2. @ WisdomIsMisery

        Thats what I was getting at… I was'nt defendig the act I was just saying alot of men do that already and we refer to them as deadbeat dads, so even if it was legalized the stigma would still be around women would still be pissed.

        1. Once the baby’s born, what say should the father have? If the couple’s married, it’s a joint decision they need to hash out. If they’re not, and the father objects to paying support, he should be required to waive his parental rights. Essentially, he’s admitting his inability to parent, for whatever reason, & “adopting” the child out to the mom.

          Regarding this…unfortunately I've been in this situation. After over a year of the father, if you can even call him that, trying everything in his power to avoid paying child support and not seeing his daughter for the same amount of time…we agreed that he could sign his rights over. She already had a man (father figure) in her life and the two of us were able to fininacially support her. So really it became about "lets just stop all the arguing and fighting"

          The court on the other hand DID NOT agree. Currently we have a contract that states I have waived my rights to child support and that he has waived his rights to visitation. Either one of us can go back on this unless one of the following happens 1) I get married and my husband wants to adpot her 2) The time frame of him not seeing his daughter gets to be into the 4-6 year mark.

          So its not that simple

  30. Love the discussion happening today. If any man got me pregnant, whether he be a one nighter or a S/O, I believe he has the right to know. That's common courtesy to me since you are potentially creating a life with this person. It takes two and all that other jazz. As far as what happens after…you only get a say if you plan on being there for your child. A lot of men around my way love to boast about all the kids they have but don't respect the mothers and don't take care of their seed. Not okay. If I can already see that you would not be there for this child…you have lost all rights to an opinion. Otherwise, let's have a conversation and decide together. Id probably consider a private adoption over an abortion. Also, cosign everything Most said about double standards.

  31. If a man doesn't want to have kids…why is he having sex without a condom (the same goes for a woman too)? If a man has sex without a condom and gets a woman pregnant, yes he should have to pay child support whether he wanted to have kids or not. It's simple science.

    Personally, I would tell a man if I was pregnant. However, ultimately I believe the choice is up to the woman.

    1. "If a man has sex without a condom and gets a woman pregnant, yes he should have to pay child support whether he wanted to have kids or not. It’s simple science."

      So given your logic….I assume you agree with the following statement:

      If a woman has sex without a condom and gets pregnant, yes she should have to give birth whether she wanted to have kids or not. It’s simple science.

  32. Had to change my Avi, can't have the kids looking on for this, lol. Let me share a little story with you all.

    Many years ago a young Teflon fell in love. Played house with her man, played stepmom to his kids, made his stank-azz apartment feel like a home. Things were great, until he started drinking. Then things got a little hairy. Then they got a little violent. Young Teflon made her escape from this man early in the morning while he was at work with his handprint still around her neck. Free at last…until two weeks later when she found out she was pregnant.

    I knew what he would've said had I told him about the situation. I knew that he would advocate for the life of his child. But I also knew what kind of father he was and that the burden would be on my shoulders, not his. I told him afterwards and he was pissed but I was away from him by then. Generally, I think that it's something that needs to be discussed with the dad no matter what. But life is funny sometimes. Sometimes you have to use that "get out jail free" card, only it ain't free.

    Sex is a complex, pleasurable thing. But sometimes we forget what the primary purpose is, and why it's so much fun. To ensure that people continue to populate the earth through children. Having sex while trying not to have kids is like swimming while trying not to get your hair wet. Perhaps we wouldn't be having these discussions of "men's rights" if men would respect their seed the same way women are expected to respect their reputations. I can't give a man that choice because I didn't take it away from him. Biology did that. Trust me, if I had some choice my man would have carried our twins in his body those last few months and put in equal time pushing them into the world. Men need to exercise choice before conception, not control over a woman's body after.

    1. <blockquote cite="comment-315603">

      Teflon Temptress: Sex is a complex, pleasurable thing. But sometimes we forget what the primary purpose is, and why it’s so much fun. To ensure that people continue to populate the earth through children. Having sex while trying not to have kids is like swimming while trying not to get your hair wet. Perhaps we wouldn’t be having these discussions of “men’s rights” if men would respect their seed the same way women are expected to respect their reputations. I can’t give a man that choice because I didn’t take it away from him. Biology did that. Trust me, if I had some choice my man would have carried our twins in his body those last few months and put in equal time pushing them into the world. Men need to exercise choice before conception, not control over a woman’s body after.

      Thank you for sharing. Life is definitely complicated, so some situations are dictated by the circumstances. I def understand that.

      O, and by the way, GREATEST QUOTE OF ALL TIME!

      "Having sex while trying not to have kids is like swimming while trying not to get your hair wet. Perhaps we wouldn’t be having these discussions of “men’s rights” if men would respect their seed the same way women are expected to respect their reputations. I can’t give a man that choice because I didn’t take it away from him. Biology did that."

      I also like how you threw "expected" in. I see what you did there. lol

    2. Teflon,

      I must comment only to give you your props— props for sharing your story, and for eloquently using the best analogy I have ever heard RE: unprotected sex. "Having sex while trying not to have kids is like swimming while trying not to get your hair wet". As a Black woman who has tried to swim without getting her hair wet many times (literally, not figuratively), allow me to cosign—- it may work a couple times, but you're gonna have a LOT of near misses, and eventually, somebody's gonna splash you.

    3. THAT was my dislike BTW…

      Good Morning TT,

      Preface: Thanks for sharing, I am sorry in advance if I discourage you  from sharing more…

      1. I am glad you did what was best for you… You had legal rights, and you exercised them well…

      2. Although you probably didn't know better then, you made a poor decision to be intimate with that man… I lack sympathy for you…

      3. Hopefully you can give younger women the longer version of this story & will help them make better decisions with men they allow to be intimate with…

      Thanks For Sharing

      1. Adonis…you have no right to tell somebody they made a poor choice…who the heck do you think you are!??

        Please believe, Teflon will not be discouraged from sharing because of your dislike of her choices….but, I don't need to say anything more..I am sure Tef will be back here shortly with her own response….

        1. That was my dislike, BTW…

          Just remember… the life the Teflon Temptress has now… a child was killed for that… A blood sacirifice…

          Who knows what that child could have contributed to society, or what kind of goals & dreams he/she could have performed…

          But will never know, cause her mother wasn't smart enough to give her a suitable father…

          #ImDone On This

  33. Having a child is a risk each party takes, every single time they have sex. Ever checked the success rate on condoms? Last time I checked it was closer to 85% not 100%.

    I am pro-choice, but I believe the issues around abortion are extremely murky. Because at the end of the day the woman is expected to have, maintain and raise the child. If the man fights for her to have this child, and things end up different once the child is born or is older, the woman is expected to continue to raise this child with or without help. And I don't just mean financially. I mean the full authority and responsbility it takes to raise a child.

    I have definitely told partners, that if I got pregnant by them I'm not sure I would tell them. I am not saying it is right, but I can understand how it happens. When I look around at all the people who were in relationships before children, but were out of relationships when the children came there's a lot going on.

    I feel for men, who WANT the child and the woman doesn't. Cause they have no legal right, but I don't think that is an issue that has an easy solution, or ever will. Sometimes both parties may not want children, but then when they find out a child is on the way, one or both may have a change of heart. I yearn for the day when we all realize that our feelings are not always static but fluid, they can change with circumstance.

    My only suggestion for myself and others is to hopefully only sleeping with people who I can trust to have clear communication paths. Watch, what type of energies you put out.

  34. Granted, the woman's body does have to bear the child, and she should dictate what happens with her body for the next 9 months……but shouldn't a man be able to dictate what happens with his body for the next 20+ years?

    Think about the blue collar workers. If they don't want the child, yet have no say and are now forced to support a child they didn't want, now a portion of their labor goes towards a child they never want. And after 20+ years of doing physical labor that DOES take a toll on your body.

    Also many men STAY in those jobs simply because they have a mouth to feed and don't have the luxury of taking a different road.

    But none of that is taken into account when SHE's making a choice about HER body.

  35. Woman opt out of motherhood…..right to choose. Man "opts" out of fatherhood…..dead beat dad.

    Anyone see the problem here?

    Men shouldn't have a say what happens to a woman's body, but we should be able to choose not to be a father. They can use the same guidelines they use when women put their kids up for adoption. You forfeit all rights and responsibilities.

    1. <blockquote cite="comment-315608">

      Rick: Woman opt out of motherhood…..right to choose. Man “opts” out of fatherhood…..dead beat dad.

      Interesting point, Rick. I think men can "be able to choose not to be a father" and many do. I assume what you're saying is even after that decision is made, it is then up to the woman to decide if she wants to "punish" the father by using the (current) legal means to force him to pay child support regardless of his desire to not be a father. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

  36. Pro choice doesn't equate to pro abortion.

    Anywho, my solution to this is not having sex with people I would have a problem with getting pregnant. I would hope a woman I got pregnant would tell me. If she didn't it's so on, because I want to be s father so fanning me that joy through deception is borderline unforgivable

  37. Also with all the talk about if a man doesn't use a condom, he has to live with the consequences…..let's follow that logic.

    The ONLY form of contraception that men have is condoms. And according to some, if he doesn't use that ONE form, he has to take responsibility.

    So therefore, given that women have 10+ forms of contraception. If she chooses to not take ANY of the 10+ forms available to her, then she has to take responsibility.

    Is that correct?

    *and don't bring up vasectomies, I'm not talking about surgical procedures.*

  38. I think a woman should tell a man if she's pregnant. I'd wanna know. In terms of whether she keeps or not, I know that I have no control over that and she's gonna do what she wants. And with this being the case and as stated repeatedly above, this is why I don't run around rampantly touching walls.

    While men only have 1 primary form of contraception, we do know beforehand what we're potentially getting ourselves into. No pun. So if we go ahead and do the do, we need to be prepared to potentially be making payments down the road should things go awry and we don't end up with the child's mother. If you create life, like it or not, it's your responsibility to take care of it. If you really wanna be cautious, hurry up and get outta of there even if you have a C on when you get that tingle. Of course most of us, self included, don't wanna be that cautious.

  39. As a woman, I think that a woman should tell a man when she's become pregnant. As a woman that has never been in this predicament, I can't say that this is easy to do.

    I have a friend who still grieves about the loss of his daugher that the chick aborted. Yes, there are men who wouldn't give two fcuks (probably what got them there in the first place) about a woman becoming pregnant by them, BUT there are plenty of men who want to be a father or at very least take responsibility for their actions. I think its bass ackwards that you can legally force a man to pay child support and require a signature from both parents to get a passport for a minor but there is no "room" for the man's opion in abortion. I know that the woman bears the brunt of the physical ramifications of prenancy (and abortion) but emotionally, both men and women feel the effects of whatever decision is made.

    Now about the child support. If you don't want kids- don't "do" it. No contraception method is 100%. If you are going to be hell bent on not becoming a father- then let it go in a cup, napkin, whatever- otherwise you run the option of becoming someone's father, benefactor, etc. Responsibility lies on everyone involved in the act an a child shouldn't suffer because you said one thing and did another.

    1. I had a friends go through the same thing my freshman year of college. He got his girlfriend pregnant and she had ahm abortion and pretty much told him after the fact. Dude was crushed. He pretty much hated her for a few years after that happened.

      Now he's married with no kids and I think she is divorced with 2 kids.

  40. <blockquote cite="comment-315574">

    Adonis:

    I loved the billboard when it came up… I do find it amazing how living in poverty gives you more liberty to make poor decision without repercussion…

    THIS!!! Exactly!

  41. <blockquote cite="comment-315560">

    TWIsM: And what about adoption? When there are MANY couples who’re dying to have kids and can’t, why not put your child in a better situation and give them a better life? If you’re pregnant and the father has expressed he doesn’t want a child but you don’t want an abortion, why is adoption not an option? Why isn’t this a valid argument in family court? Why hasn’t a judge ever said “Wayment, you decided to have a child despite knowing you were unable to support the child on your own and knowing that the father had no desire to have a child. Now you come to me and play the victim role as if you had no options and/or responsibility in the matter???”

    Easier said than done, so many children are put into the adoption/foster care system and never find a home, if your baby isn’t adopted by the time its two, it's going to have a hard time finding a home because most people want to adopt infants.

    It's the same thing with the welfare/TANF system while some need it other abuse that source by having 3 and 4 kids. While there are programs out there that could prevent abortion other than condoms and other birth control methods, those programs are being stretched thin

  42. I personally feel that a woman should tell a man if she becomes pregnant and that he should have some type of legal rights. All this talk about its her body that has to bear the consequences for 9 months is a cop out. Its not about her body, its about the child! I can't see how its fair for a woman to decide by herself that she wants to have the child and then force the man to pay child support 18 years. If he made it clear from the beginning that he didn't want a child, he should be able to legal relinquish rights and responsibility. Granted a woman wouldn't want to be pregnant for 9 months with a child that she doesn't want, but isn't that the same thing the man is going through (minus the being pregnant part)? If a woman forces a man to have a child, the man should be able to force the woman to, if that's what he wants. People say he should be prepared to not have a child that he wants if the woman decides she doesn't want to because that comes along with sex. Well if that's the case, the woman she be prepared for the same thing. She laid down with him knowing the possibilities. A child is half mom, half dad, so he wants should definitely be considered somehow. Unfortunately, I don't think the laws will ever support it.

  43. What are your thoughts? Is a woman obligated to inform the man she’s pregnant by?

    No, a woman ISN'T OBLIGATED to tell the man she is carrying his baby, BUT it's the right thing to do as a morally upstanding grown ass female. I would definitely tell the man if I am pregnant, no matter what the outcome may be, because afterall we planted this seed together and the father does have a right to voice his opinion on the situation whether it's to abort or raise a little family……. and besides why should I be the only one walking around stressed/woo woo woo'ing/dazed and confused due to this situation.

    I'm not knocking anyone who has had a baby against a man's will or without him knowing but I never quite understood the logic behind this because you are doing yourself and that child a huge disservice.

    I am pro-choice I believe in the right to choose either way — but at least let a brotha know.

  44. I wish I could have read more comments, but I think this topic should be brought up more. This issue always makes me think about the movie Demolition Man with Sylvestor Stallone, Sandra Bullock, and Wesley Snipes that portrayed America in around 2030 and sexual intercourse was illegal. You had sexual stimulation with a partner with a shared headpiece (or something) and if you wanted a child you had to apply to have kids and then they were created in a lab (think petri dish cause remember sexual intercourse is illegal). Sometimes I don't think this scenario would be so bad.

    Old movies aside, I'm huge on personal responsiblilty and being proactive. We all have to make appropriate choices and then deal appropriately with the consequences of our choices. And starting this conversation at the pregancy stage is too late. You have to make appropriate choices from when you firdt see that fine dude with muscular arms and the big bulge in his pants (in public?) and that big booty girl with the dimples and long hair. Sex is fun, but there are some serious consequences to having sex. One plausible result of sex, even sex approached with the best intentions and care, is pregnancy. Unless you or your sexual partner have had medical procedures on your reproductive organs, you should know each sexual encounter can result with pregnancy.

    Personally I would like to live my life without any unwanted pregnancies, an abortion or giving up a child. So I conduct myself accordingly. However, I would like to believe that I would discuss an unplanned pregnancy with the dude I allowed to knock me up. I also want to believe that his opinion would be of utmost importance. I know that this doesn't always happen and my heart would go out to a guy who learns that his girl is preggers, encourages her to carryout the pregnancy, but the woman decides not to. I still wouldn't want to take that choice away from that woman. I would want the man to make better choices in having sex with women who are adamant that they would not have an abortion. Never being told or a girl changing her position on the issue is always possible and such is life (it blows sometimes).

    And that comment about a man not having a choice of paying child support if he didn't want a kid is not compelling to me. If you don't want to have a kid or pay to support a kid, don't conduct activity that would result in a kid. PERIOD. Chiming in at the pregnancy stage is again too late and you may not get your desired result. Further, parents (mother and father) have lawful obligations to their children.The custodial parent is paying as well and is oftentimes paying more than the legally required payments of the noncustodial parent. So to that dude (the one complaining about having to pay chidl support) I say, "Pay your child support and do it with a smile. Any and all hostility should be directed to yourself." And a blank stare to those with multiple "baby mamas."

    From the post: "Concerning my opinion on abortion, I’m not pro-choice or pro-life. That’s a decision – whether you like it or not – for your elected lawmakers to dictate." Legislators aren't suppose to dictate to "the people". They are suppose to carry out the will of the people and while I know our government has room for improvement (biggest understatement I've made all year), any of us deciding to just let them do what they do (or don't do) in my opinion is not a step in the right direction. Also if you don't think you (as a man) should tell a woman what to do with her body, there's a good chance that you believe that the government shouldn't tell that woman what to do either and are more pro-choice than you think.

    Good post.

      1. Now I don't remember the details, but the President dude was trying to create the perfect world order which would inlcude no disease, unwanted pregnancies, child support issues, or anything. Even cursing was illegal. Everything was clean and orderly. And you have to admit sex can get messy during and afterwards. And I ALWAYS wanted to know how those darn sea shells or whatever it was in the bathroom worked.

    1. Hmm…my comment was almost as long as WIM's post. I'll do better (steps away from the pulpit with head down and church finger up).

  45. I read this post last night, and came back to see the comments this am. What I see here, overwhelmingly is the Failure to take precautions to ensure that PREGNANCY DOES NOT OCCUR. (please understand that I am excluding the .01%-10% chance that pregnancy will occur while using all preventative measures available). While I am Pro-Choice, I personally would not choose to abort. In my 20 years of activity (damn, has it been that long?), I have had ZERO pregnancy scares (the Pill is one of my best friends – ride or die). It always amazes me when someone gets pregnant 'on accident'. What the hell? Last I checked, chex (potentially) leads to pregnancy. I know plenty of females who have had abortions, and plenty who have NEVER gotten pregnant. Those that have get the side eye from me when they talk about how they didn't mean to get pregnant (no, you just didn't care to ensure that you didn't). So, the take away should be this: Females – know your preventative options, and 'effin USE THEM; Men – wrap it up, period. And folks stop 'effin folks that you would not want to have children with, period. Overall, understand that the potential consequence of your actions could be 18+ years of support (financially and otherwise), for BOTH PARTIES. Oh, and last note, while I understand having the choice, ladies will you please stop throwing "I would abort" out there like you are discussing getting your damn hair done? #HaveSomeRespect

    1.  Oh, and last note, while I understand having the choice, ladies will you please stop throwing "I would abort" out there like you are discussing getting your damn hair done? #HaveSomeRespect

      MiaC is my new heartthrob… Up there with Maxine & Starita…

      Still waiting for Beef Bacon to deliver…

    2. last note, while I understand having the choice, ladies will you please stop throwing “I would abort” out there like you are discussing getting your damn hair done? #HaveSomeRespect

      Yes unfortunately especially with ppl around my age having babies has become very common almost like buying a pair of jordans. So yea some ppl talk about abortion like it's a cake walk but forget about the heath and emotional risk they can cause.

      Like you said its comes down to both parties taking responsibility women keep saying men should rap it up but even when they don't some women still let these men hit it. Men don't come crying "she set me up" when you set your own self up by not using condoms every time

    3. <blockquote cite="comment-315652">

      MiaC: It always amazes me when someone gets pregnant ‘on accident’. What the hell? Last I checked, chex (potentially) leads to pregnancy. I know plenty of females who have had abortions, and plenty who have NEVER gotten pregnant. Those that have get the side eye from me when they talk about how they didn’t mean to get pregnant (no, you just didn’t care to ensure that you didn’t)…Oh, and last note, while I understand having the choice, ladies will you please stop throwing “I would abort” out there like you are discussing getting your damn hair done? #HaveSomeRespect

      CO-SIGN!

  46. <blockquote cite="comment-315649">

    WisdomIsMisery: @JJ: I also realized after I commented originally that even if that’s true, the man would still have to get the woman to agree to let him sign away his legal rights, if that is even a viable option. You see, I doubt a woman that wants child support would agree to let a man sign away his legal rights because that would mean she would be losing the child support too. I dont see that happening. It would be more in the vein of two people agreeing that the man doesnt have to pay child support and him wanting to have that in writing. I’m still not sure that would stand up in court if she ever changed her mind.

    Gotcha. I hadn't considered the mother needing to agree. Hmmm. In that case, all I can say two methods of birth control is worth 18 years of grudging co-parenting. ("An ounce of prevention…") Or as Teflon Temptress put it above, "Men need to exercise choice before conception, not control over a woman’s body after."

  47. WIM, off the chain!

    To me, it's not even about an issue of 'Men's Rights' in the court. It's about courtesy and community. So many women are saying that men surrender their input/control over their own future/lifestyle once a woman gets pregnant, to the women involved. This also includes the idea of not informing the potential father that he may have a child on the way. I'm sure most of not all of the males commenting today aren't arguing about the laws. It's about having some sort of representation in a decision the affects one's future. Some of you all don't know what that means (just b/c I'm a man that's saying this) and I'm going to try to explain it in the clearest way possible.

    I agree. It is clear that the physical/mental consequences for pregnancy regardless of pro-life, pro-choice or pro-adoption falls onto the mother. And that's a lot of you all argument staples. No one disagrees with you. However, child affects everyone's life for a minimum of 18 years (really the rest of one's life). What it means for us to have an opinion in the raising or existence of a child means that we have a few conversations and when I walk away from it, know that we worked together to achieve A solution. Even if I walked in thinking: "Man… I don't want no child." if I can EVEN walk out that piece like: "Hmmm… Raising a child might not be so bad" or "Well, we agreed on adoption." That's great. More concisely, we come to a conclusion TOGETHER. Even though personally people may walk in different plans/ideas, afterwards I should have a clear idea of a shared vision. A shared vision of either keeping/raising the child, aborting the fetus or entering the child into adoption. Regardless of being in a "official" relationship or not, 'you chose to lay with that person' and now all the women rally to excuse the exclusion of a man's choice in his own future -> stop that. YOU (woman) chose the lay with that man, and I dare say it's YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to attempt to integrate a working solution: to agree upon a shared vision.

    The fact that there's a lack of willingness to include your lover's opinion demonstrates the mental rift within our community. Yeah, we sometimes disagree but Lack of willingness though?!?! Not to insult anybody, but that's irresponsible given that you opened your legs. It's the same type of irresponsible tendencies some men demonstrate by straight up AVOIDING/IGNORING the women they get pregnant. Yes… That makes you equal to them. I don't care if you're baring the child, you're still not taking responsibility for your involvement with THAT person. When you got pregnant, I promise you wasn't f*cking yourself, by yourself.

    Look, most of this demonstrates a communication problem. I'm going to get personal a bit to demonstrate my points here:
    Once within a relationship, I got my woman pregnant. The day she found out, she told me "I need for you to sit down. OK. The the doctor just tole me that I'm pregnant." I paused and said: "I don't think that's the end of the world. But given me a few minutes to digest with you said." I then called her back and attempted to discuss the situation. Well, first of course, I let her vent or whatever and listened. Then the "conversation" I was expecting didn't happen. She instead said, "I'm having the child. Let me know now if you're going to be involved." She basically made that call to have the child 1 hour after knowing she could be pregnant, not including the opinion of her BOYFRIEND. I was irate. Not b/c she said she wanted the child, but b/c she so-called made this decision without me having a say so about the baby. My response, "Hey. I would like it very much to have a discussion of all our options and come up with a plan of action together." You know the sad part…. She didn't know WTH that meant! All there was what she THOUGHT I was going to say and what she wanted and that was it. Let me give you some context: At THAT time, I was homeless. I lost my house and all my possessions in the Middle TN flood of 2010. Natural Disaster. So… I WAS HOMELESS. My approach was that given I can't provide for myself at this time, I clearly cannot take care of a child and a pregnant woman. The astute will say, "oh she already knew your situation and knew you wouldn't want the child so to avoid an argument…" Eff that. That's stupid. I'm better than that and she knew that. It's about coming to an agreement together. So people don't know how to have discussions. Usually, women RUN from the idea of having a discussion with someone that differs in opinion. It's not even about trying to get someone to "agree" since sometimes there's fundamental differences in thought processes. Back to the story -> All I wanted was an understanding of things from her viewpoint. HUH? Wait… Isn't that WHY we have conversations with people of possibly different opinions?!

    Given that I CAN NOT tell her what to do with her body, I (and every other man in this world) needs for YOU (women) to verbalize how the situation affects you. All that extra romancy-type ish you're dreaming up in your head NEEDS to be said. Otherwise, how am I suppose to have some kind understanding of your experience as the potential mother of my child? How am I suppose to truly "get" the vision when you're imposing one on me that I don't even fully understand. Just talk… Easy huh? And I'll do that same… That we BOTH have an understanding of what is going on. YOU have the fetus inside YOU. its makes sense that I feel a initial disconnect to the situation since there's nothing inside of me. DESCRIBE WHAT'S GOING ON.

    Fast forward: I'm pissed I'm being forced to participate in a situation I barely understand (emotionally?) without any sort of plan. I say over and over again: "We need to talk about all our options. At least give me an idea of what's going on (mentally)" but she "already made the decision." Luckily, HER God said 'WTF are you doing chick' and she ended up having a miscarriage. I was happy AND sad. Happy for obvious reasons. Sad b/c she demonstrated that 'lack of willingness' to openly discuss the situation. Thus meaning I never truly understood what she felt-felt (yes, there's felt and felt-felt). And sad, b/c of the negative mental affects miscarriages have on women.

    Fast forward: 7 months later we discuss (she brought up) what we would do IF she got pregnant again. Context: At this time, I got me a new house and was settling in a piecing my life back together. She said, "If I get pregnant again, I'm just going to get an abortion." I was irate. YES, very upset! Why? B/c this chick (and probably many women) missed the whole point! I said we need to make the decision TOGETHER. Don't just go all willy-nilly switching up my future, my legacy while expecting me to just go along 100%.

    Moral of the story: Incorporate your lover's ideas/opinions. Otherwise, it's called being irresponsible and uncivilized.

    BTW: She's was dismissed without the possibility of reinstatement due to the above situation. It demonstrated her inability to work with her partner when it mattered. And I therefore judged her capacity as a companion and would-be mother to be sub-par. Keep that ish to yo self…

    1. I def feel you on this. I always tell s/o's BEFORE HAND that I don't have the emotional capacity to go through adoption or abortion. From there, we can plan. But, my love and respect for the s/o won't change the aforementioned facts. Out of respect, and to give him a choice, I make that known from the jump.

      Real talk though, I can't say for sure what I'd do in this situation, but I would hope that once my circustances changed and I knew I would a) def not want any kids right now and b) still be doing the do, I'd have a sit down talk with my s/o to discuss a plan of action. Did you guys do that???

      Based on that last bit of randomness from her, I completely agree with your decision to tell her to keep it moving, btw. Not that my opinion matters at all, lol. Since you didn't state her logic for making this choice, it def seems like a random, willy-nilly decision based on…nothing.

      1. It makes sense to state to new SOs one's hard-n-fast rules. However, the environment may change over time. I think there should be an open discussion the determine the feasibility of having a child at various points in a relationship. If you say what you feel beforehand, then something major happens that causes lasting effects, there should be a re-evaluation to the idea of how to handle pregnancy (as well as other things).

    2. Wow, MM. Good sh!t. So much to say.

      1) Having survived Katrina only to watch everything burn in a house fire last year, I can relate to you losing your home in a flood. Sorry to hear that.

      2) I loved your points on ACTUALLY COMMUNICATING. What an off the wall idea. lol I swear it amazes me when people just don't get this.

      3) I couldn't completely relax until you said you dropped this chick. I would have had a "WTF is up with this dude for staying with this chick" pit in my stomach.

    3. @MeteorMan: Damn son.

      I had a similar, albeit completely different situation. I got my x-girl at the time preg. She sat me down. Basically said, "I'm going to have this child with or without you." In her case, it was for religious reasons. The difference was she also said something to the effect of, "And if you don’t want to be a father to this baby, that's fine but I'm having it because I want to be a mother."

      So while I didn’t have a choice in her having it, she did give me the option to essentially walk away.

      Side note: I know she would not have pursued child support because she already had a son by another (decent) guy and she never took him to court. Whatever he could provide she accepted and whenever, which was rare, he wanted to see his son she allowed him to. I’m not saying their relationship wasn’t without drama but, as far as I could tell, she made the best effort to minimize her side of the drama by not forcing a man that did not want to be a father to be a father.

      Anyway, to wrap this story up, I made the decision to "stick around" for lack of a better term. While I didn’t have a full choice in the process, at least she gave me the option to understand her view on the subject. When I juxtapose it to your situation I now see that I should have appreciated that conversation a lot more. In the end, like your girl, she had a miscarriage so I don’t know what would have happened in the long run. We're not together anymore but we still talk and remain friends.

      – FIN –

    4. I'm with the other posters, I was hoping your story would end with the end of that crazy chick. She would have your child while homeless but abort it once you were getting back on your feet? o_O

      Besides that jewel, I'm all for discussing the situation with your partner. At least hear where the man is coming from. Usually.

  48. This is why I don't have casual s.ex! Damn an "uh oh" or me having to force a man to take care of our kids. Kids are too freakin expensive and draining. They want your attention. You gotta take 'em places. You go to the mall to buy yourself clothes and feel obligated to buy them something then you leave with more stuff for them than stuff for you! They wake up early in the morning for NO FREAKIN REASON…ok, to eat, but dang it if you can't wait till I'm ready to get up!?!? If I'm having one, I NEED HELP…dang it if Imma go through that without guaranteed financial and emotional breaks.

    I have never been pregnant when I wasn't aware of the risks. If I really didn't wanna get pregnant, I did EVERYTHING I COULD DO to make sure it didn't happen…and I mean that. I was married 4 years without getting pregnant…cause I didn't want kids yet. This mistake stuff is for the birds in most cases (Teflon-esque situations def get a pass…glad you made it out of that with no strings, girl). I'm sure it happens every now and then, but, most often, unplanned pregnancies are a result of irresponsible horny people.

    Having said that, this whole "abortion/men's vs. women's rights" talk should be had BEFORE you have s.ex with someone. Any man I've engaged with knew before hand that if we got pregnant, we're having a baby that you SHALL be helping me to take care of…regardless of what happens to us. And, I did all the vetting I could do to assure that he was a man of his word…so I trusted that he would stick around if the BC/condom/pull out methods all failed. His decision to lay with me after the talk was his compliance with whatever we agreed to. Having "the talk" before hand gives both men and women the right to exercise any and every God given right known to mankind. And, if you respect the woman enough to have "the talk", she will DEF respect you enough to tell you if she becomes pregnant. But, you'll already know the plan from there cause…wait for it…you talked about it! YAY! * fist pump *

    I'm all for men's rights, women's right, blah, blah, blah. But, what good are rights if you don't exercise them when it's the appropriate time to do so…and, in the context of WIM's post, after the fact ain't it!

    Hmph… My pressure done gone up again, lol…

    1. I feel where you're coming from CO – if folks would put their cards on the table BEFORE they put their booties on the mattress a lot of heartache would be avoided. I've gotta say though, I know a lot of single moms who had children they thought the man wanted also. Yeah, he was cool and he wanted the kid right up until it started hurting his pockets. Then she trapped him/she's a hoodrat/is that even my kid/etc. come into play. More often than not the woman keeps it moving with the kid and doesn't bother pressing the man out to see or support the kid. Pursuing a man for child support often gets trumped by the day to day responsibilities of the kid.

      1. The men you are describing are just whack and I'm sure no man here would defend a man who "was good with the kid(s) till they got expensive or they moved on to the new family, etc"…like the men you've described.

        I just thank God that my kids father is a great one. Cause I'd make him just as miserable as me if he tried to put me in a position to take care of these kids by myself, lol. He'd be shoving money in my face and begging to keep them just to shut me up! LOL…

        I'm laughing but I'm not playing, lol… I'd be locked up for acting the pure fool. Good thing God knows what you can handle…

  49. One poster already made a point that hasn't been refuted, which is if men have only 1 birth control option (which at times can be pretty faulty) versus a woman who has about a dozen plus abortion and safe haven doesn't that make her equally if not more responsible? It doesn't make sense to tell men to not have sex if they don't want children because women with all the aforementioned resources don't have to do the same.

    You can say what you want but we can't have discussions about equality then when someone brings up a point that proves the status quo guilty of inequality everyone says "oh well". It just further proves my point that most male problems in this country are ignored when you present a solid argument but you're met with nothing but deflections.

    Also if you want to find out the truth about the "wage gap" just google CONSAD wage gap report and let's just say you'll be…..intrigued by the findings.

    1. Sorry, but you are not going to get a lot of people (men or women) to cry rivers for a man's inequality when it comes to child birth or sexual matters. In this country and most others, men's sexual freedoms have been the driver in most things. Society already unfairly holds women MORE responsible and culpable when it comes to unwanted pregnancies despite the fact that it takes a man and a woman to conceive a child.

      Secondly, men have more than 1 approach to birth control these include 1) condoms, 2) vasectomy, 3) sex with women he watches take her pill every evening at 10pm, see the patch is on everyday, saw her insert that contraption up her huhot, etc 4) sex only with known pregnant women (gasp), 4) no sex (double gasp). Some of these are inconvenient and may require a lot of work, but hey you can go as far as your partner will let you go when it comes to birth control.

      You don't find it interesting that the most well known drugs for men when it comes to sex/child birth is to allow men to have MORE sex. Why aren't men rallying to get scientists and drug makers to make a pill that will dry up your sperm or reduce the reproductive qualities of your sperm to a mere 0.01%? Why aren't you advocating for a male birth control pill or device to shove up and attach to your reductive pipe? Cause ya'll like ya'll sperm the way it is and ain't trying to tamper with your mighty lil swimming soldiers. Y'all are all about pleasuring your member not controlling it and surely aren't trying to torture it with birth control devices. But women are expected to take all this ish (birth control) that wrecks havoc on our bodies and hormones.

      If you want equality ask for male birth control options. Start a petition, hold some town hall meetings, start a blog, get a website so men across the globe can moblize to let the drug makers (a male dominanted field) know that they will make zillions of dollars from all the men who want to take equal responsibilty in child birth. I won't hold my breath for that revolution and until then good sir, you can take these type of "male problems" and shove them in a box along with the "rich people problems."

      1. KAPS,

        While that was amusing to read, you didn't really answer the question. The point being made wasn't a complaint about the lack of birth control options available to men.

        But all that aside, "sex only with known pregnant women (gasp)"

        ????

        o_O

        O_O

        What. The. %@$&

        To avoid having an accidental pregnancy men should sleep with women who are already pregnant (presumably with ANOTHER MAN'S baby)? Wow! That's all I got.

        1. Oh I was responding to the commenter A who said: "One poster already made a point that hasn’t been refuted, which is if men have only 1 birth control option (which at times can be pretty faulty) versus a woman who has about a dozen plus abortion and safe haven doesn’t that make her equally if not more responsible? It doesn’t make sense to tell men to not have sex if they don’t want children because women with all the aforementioned resources don’t have to do the same." and some other mess.

          In response to A's comment, I just took 2 mins to think of male birth control options and sleeping with a pregnant chick w/ someone else's baby is one option. I don't think it should be sought after, but if you don't want to father a child…. And apparently that's more suitable advice than telling someone NOT TO HAVE SEX according to some commenters that's why that one got a double gasp.

      2. Besides #1, the birth control measures 2-5 (You wrote 4 twice) are unreasonable to suggest in today's day and age.

        Vasectomy is permenant (Not as reversible as some women think). Sex with pregnant women is either wrong (If it's not yours) or just pointless (if the point is to avoid pregnancy if it is your kid). No sex is not happening in the day and age especially if we are fighting for women to not be deemed as whores for sleeping around and finally, I wish a woman would be okay with me calling her everyday at the same time to remind her to take her medicine. It might be appreciated for a while but after a month of phone calls and inconvenience, any couple would tire of that.

  50. Can the women here please PLEASE cut out this garbage about you 'shouldn't have did it if you didn't want the repercussions'? I know you're not but I just hate hypocrisy. Because we all know darn well that if tomorrow was a post about sex all the women standing on the soapbox would be the same ones writing about flashbacks to their last great orgasm. We all know that the majority of people who frequent here have sex on a regular basis, hell a good portion have casual sex on a regular basis.

    The idea of 'Just Say No' has no place in the real world. It's not in anyway practical and pretty much any statistical measure in any community that preaches silence/inaction to issues over education has an abundance of those issues. We do not live in a fantasy land where men and women are located on two opposite sides of the planet and they only way the meet each other is after an arranged marriage. We don't need to escape being a prisoner of war, continuously sprint 25 miles across the Savannah in Africa getting chased by cheetahs, swim across dozens of lakes, win a guitar battle with Jimi Hendrix, go into a time machine to defeat Muhammad Ali in his prime, and defeat Deep Blue in a game of chess in order to finally have a chance to bed another person.

    1. "Because we all know darn well that if tomorrow was a post about sex all the women standing on the soapbox would be the same ones writing about flashbacks to their last great orgasm."

      Yikes.

      1. I know I'm coming off as really abrasive today and please believe I have love for everyone here, but come on son! Let's not pretend the majority of us here aren't sexually active. I'm pretty sure majority of the people that read and comment are closer to 30 than 20 so there is no need for this sanctimonious ignorance that is 'Just Say No' when concerning sex.

        1. Oh, I agree with you. Continue with the honest perspective and thoughts. You just made a point about something I've been observing for years now on these types of posts.lol. The only thing I'd say is that "all" should be "most" because people hate the generalizations. But other than that, good stuff.

    2. How about this statement:

      "You shouldn't have done it without using/taking the proper precautions ("the talk", condoms, making sure she was on BC, etc.) if you didn't want the repercussions that you weren't comfortable with (in court being forced to pay child support, raising a kid you really weren't prepared for)?"

      And that's for the man AND the woman. Precautions are very real and very available. You can't get too mad about how effed up your situation is if you went in half-assed from the jump.

      Ijs…

  51. This topic made me come all the way out of lurkdom lol. I believe that if a woman gets pregnant and knows who the father is, she should tell him. I couldn't imagine being a man and not knowing that I had gotten a woman pregnant. Men cannot tell a woman to keep or abort her baby because he does not have the biological burden of gestation. After conception, the woman's right to bodily autonomy overrides the man's right to decide if the child will be carried to term or not. After birth, the child's right to be supported by both parents (assuming adoption is not chosen) trumps the father's previous desire for the child not to be carried to term in the first place, which is why it doesn't matter if you wanted the child or not, you are responsible for the care of the child you help create. This means that men who do not want children at the time or with the woman they are choosing to have sex with need to take precautions. "I got caught up in the moment" is not an excuse.

    I've had two unplanned pregnancies back to back and abortion was not an option for me. I was, however, in a fortunate situation as I am in a serious relationship with the father of my children and we were planning on having a family just not right now at 24 and 26. When I told my fiance that I was pregnant with my son, he was surprised but happy. When I told him that I was pregnant with my daughter only 9 months after I gave birth to my son, he was pissed. I wasn't happy either, but we knew with both pregnancies that these children were a result of our choices and we were committed to taking responsibility for our actions. Now that we have our daughter here we can't imagine life without her.

  52. <blockquote cite="comment-315561">

    Hebrew Princess: I am saddened at the fact that some ladies are stating that they may or may not tell the father of their unborn child that they are pregnant in the first place. That is so selfish in my opinion. Yes, its your body but damn…you can sleep with him but not even let him know that he has impregnated you?! I’m lost.

    I'm not necessarily so sure how selfish that is. If I was a man I wouldn't necessarily want to know that the woman I'm will decided to kill our unborn child. Especially if she didn't tell me before she did it. As a social worker who has worked with couples dealing with the aftermath of abortion it's not exactly so cut and dry.

  53. I can't even begin to talk about this topic before I say a few one-liners I have been thinking while reading through the comments:

    (1) Women can dodge Sallie Mae, Men can dodge child support. Fair is fair.

    (2) A whole lot of this discussion could be avoided if cats knew how to pull out.

    (3) I'm glad we got Gravatar so you can see the women you shouldn't be having sex with.

    (4) Don't you wish sex had a "CTRL+ALT+DEL" button?

    (5) Meteor needs a weekly spot on SBM if he's going to have those type of comments.

    (6) One time a chick told me before we had relations that she was not having an abortion because of something that happened in her past, I responded, "The Honorable Bow Wow teaches us, "I don't wanna hear your life story, I just want to f*ck."

    (7) A lot of arguments are made about choices, but often left out of the discussion is that the decision criteria is flawed. Like let's say you got knocked up by an ain't skit negro, "CTRL+ALT+DEL", or like a broke dude, "CTRL+ALT+DEL", or maybe a dark-skin dude, "CTRL+ATL+DEL", but let him be a member of the Miami Heat, "ALL I DO IS WIN WIN WIN NO MATTER WHAT", you better believe she's keeping it.

    (8) Pregame warmups: thinking about using a condom, The Game: "never wear a rubber, where i'm from we call that living fast." – rick ross, Overtime: Found out she pregnant, now thinking of a way to get out of fatherhood, 2nd OT: Maybe God will step in, 3rd OT: Maybe she'll OD on me and tell me she don't want my help, 4th OT: I could just go to Guatemala, 5th OT: I'm going to jail, f*ck that.

    (8b) That ain't no joke, that is real talk to women. A lot of dudes just keep thinking they have time to avoid fatherhood, so you should evaluate who you have relations with. He might seem like he's into it, but really in the back of his mind, he's like I got a plan. If I don't win here, i'll just go to OT. That's how the Miami Heat was thinking too tho…

    (9) Is this not the best Maury episode you've ever seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt2i0ts-uck

    1. Dr. J – you know why I hate you so much right now? I clicked on that link and laughed so loud I woke up both my dang kids. You's a fool for that clip!

  54. This is such a complex issue. I do think a man's feelings should at least be HEARD (even if in vain, because as we all know, since it is the woman's body… she will make a decision on what she feels regardless… but ya never know, she could take into account of the man depending on how she feels about him) as he has something to do with the baby inside as well. I mean, it is HER body… but that's something a man can't control. It's the way it is… and it's not fair for either party. The woman has to bear all the brunt of carrying a child, but BECAUSE of this fact, the man really gets no say in what happens to someone he helped create. It's quite the conundrum in which we call life, I guess.

  55. I'm a huge fan of SBM, and this is my first time commenting so let me "stick and move". The conversation for the men should not be whether the laws are fair or not, or forcing a woman into an abortion. The energy should be spent on how a man can gain leverage in the environment he finds himself. The answer is already been made available. The male birth control has been on the market around the globe for 3 yrs. It has proven to be very effective. By taking the male birth control pill, men are now able to control who has a child by them. Now if you dont take advantage of birth control options, its like not wearing a seat belt and being surprised you went through the wind sheild. You bought that. The conversation can end with men spending their energies in investigating male birth control options and protecting the worlds second most expensive natural resource behind oil. semen….

    1. I didn't know this was on the market already or that it was particularly effective.

      These young cats in the league may want to take heed. I'm on the tale end of my career, looking to hang my jersey and call it a life, with a wife. Word.

    2. Where are men actually getting the birth control. I work in the field and at my last conference (March), there were not any available for purchase, though there are thousands of men that are in trials for the pill, injection, and implant. Im not trying to be a smart arse, just wondering if I am missing something

  56. Can we all agree that life isn't fair….
    Somethings are better off not being said….
    No harm no foul.
    Have you ever seen a miserable pregnant woman? It's sad.
    What about a soon to be miserable new father? Sad too.
    If a woman knows she doesn't want to have this man's child (for whatever reason) and she gets pregnant, why tell him? So he can learn from his "mistakes"? We're talking about grown folks right?
    It might be hard for some men to understand the rationale of a womans prerogative but truth be told it simply is when it comes to who breathes…
    Women don't have to tell a man anything. A woman should not get heat for this. She knows what she wants and doesn't want to share the burden or blame with you. Its respect although it don't feel like it at that moment. Men can get a vasectomy and wear condoms, the surgery is done in an office and it can be reversed. Have any of you single men thought about that option? It's clearly your only choice with regards to holding down your seed…..I'm serious by the way.

    1. Vasectomies have a ridiculously low rate of being reversed. Please, do not use that as a reason not to tell a man you're pregnant with his child.

      I think it is really sad how many women will not tell the father if she is pregnant with his child. Even if she wasn't going to keep it, that is a horrible thing to do. A good analogy in reverse is cheating. If he doesn't tell you and never slept with her again, didn't bring "anything" home, should he have to tell you? Or what if he has a whole other family but doesn't want to tell you. He takes care of them properly and treats you like a queen. Should he tell you?

      Only time you should not tell him is if he says that until he is ready to have a kid, he does not want to know if are pregnant or get an abortion.

  57. I made a pledge to bump gums and communicate before I bump buns and procreate. Hopefully, that will save everyone from potential heartache and confusion because a beautiful experience can be tragic when you don't know who or what you're dealing with…..

  58. Before we even get to the pregnancy test phase… Has no one heard of Plan B?

    I'm no rookie in the chexing dept. and I'm pretty sure I'm not the only guy/girl who knows when cookie crumbs are left in the cookie jar. No one inspects anything afterward? Feeling a little empty during the pull-out? Ladies, you never notice any discharge right after or later on?

    If after chexing you aren't 100% sure, go to your local duane reade/rite aid/cvs/walgreens/walmart(?) and cop a pill.

    Saves alot of drama… and I don't know too many women who are against it.

    1. Soooooo.

      Men are just keeping Plan B's on deck now huh… o__O

      Wow. Okay.

      FYI: These aren't meant to be used often or as another form of birth control, this is for emergencies only because the high concentrated ingredients cause side effects; some worse than others depending on the female taking it.

  59. <blockquote cite="comment-315664">

    Adonis:

    THAT was my dislike BTW…

    Good Morning TT,

    Preface: Thanks for sharing, I am sorry in advance if I discourage you from sharing more…

    1. I am glad you did what was best for you… You had legal rights, and you exercised them well…

    2. Although you probably didn’t know better then, you made a poor decision to be intimate with that man… I lack sympathy for you…

    3. Hopefully you can give younger women the longer version of this story & will help them make better decisions with men they allow to be intimate with…

    Thanks For Sharing

    Wait, you disliked my comment? OH LAWD WHAT IZ I GONE DO NOW?

    *wall slide* *sniffle*

    Adonis you told me not to sleep on you – you told me and I did it anyway! Now you've disliked my comment! *clutches knees and rocks back and forth*

    Next time I'll listen, maybe I can earn your sympathy. Next time I'll…I'll….

    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz* snort* *drool* zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  60. Quick response:

    First of all, I'll preface my reply to WIM's questions by stating I'm very anti-abortion. Excluding a literal risk to a woman's life, [email protected], or similar situation, I've just never heard a compelling argument for it. M_rder for convenience is simply wrong.

    Assuming the moral neutrality of ab0rtion, question posed is if a woman is obligated to inform a man she is impregnated by, and if the final decision is up to the woman to keep the baby.

    To answer the first question, the answer is an absolute yes. The fact that a woman carries a baby is irrelevant, and I'm not sure how carrying the baby confers ownership solely to a woman when it's the man's child also (and the ownership magically reappears when demanding child support). To answer the second question, yes, ultimately the final decision is up to the woman, but the man's input has to be heavily factored.

    Regarding all the comments about double standards and responsibility: keep in mind women ultimately make the decision to have $ex with a man or not. Men proposition, women accept or decline, or it's [email protected] Although it happens occasionally in the case of some pansies and sissy boys, men don't get [email protected] by women. That is why although a man is most definitely responsible and why child support is sometimes necessary, a woman bears the ultimate responsibility because she agreed for the thronxing to occur.

  61. All I have to say is "well said."

    the only thing I would disagree with is when you are in a committed relationship, the man's opinion should matter. If you are going through this journey called life together, then you should certainly discuss all important decisions with your significant other, especially if you're married. I think the woman should have the last word, but your husband/boyfriend should be allowed to weigh in.

  62. <blockquote cite="comment-315564">

    TheMostInterestingManInTheWorld:

    You can’t work your job getting paid 50 to 70% more than the average woman working the same job and complain about a double standard. You can’t get consistently get promoated over women who are equally qualified or more qualified and then complain about a double standard. You can’t sleep with 250 women before you turn 30 and not have anyone look at you funny and then complain about a double standard.

    I was reading a book called,"How to Lie with Statistics" and it actually showed that the men getting paid more is a fallacy. What they did to get those numbers was compare income over a duration of time for men to the same duration of time to women. However, what creates the discrepancy is in let's say like 5 years, women take off more days average and work less hours total than men. Whether it be because of birth issues, sick days or having to leave early because of business, less hours worked equal less hours total. Compare men, who generally take off less hours total, they end up making more in that period of time. They also compared younger women to older women the same way and got similar results.

    1. Most occupations done mostly by women (nurses, cleaners, clerks) usually have a significantly lower wage than occupations done mostly by men (contractors, factory workers). So to say that "it just aint so" with regard to discrepancies in equality in the work place, is slightly misguided. Women usually also get less retirement funds because they have missed work due to pregnancies and child rearing. Some women, if their families can afford it, even miss years in the work force without compensation. And I have heard from not one but several employers that if they can choose, they will never hire a fertile woman, because they know how much it will cost them if the has children. So there is definitely a huge inequality still existing for women.

  63. This reminds me of the debate the other day on giving out of wedlock baby, daddy's last name. I am a woman and I will admit (and acknowledge) that this is one arena where we have ALL THE POWER. It really bothers me when a woman throws out the, "well you shoulda thought about that when we were getting down" line. I think that is a big heaping pile of bull-ish. That to me implies that when you were having willy nilly relations YOU DID THINK about having this man's child and never thought to discuss the what if? OR it means you too didn't think about it either but now that you and the man are at odds about what actions to take he is the one who should have considered this beforehand? Where was your head at beforehand? Were you actively thinking about this possibility and therefore trapping this man since you never discussed that you planned to force him into having a baby if he is unlucky enough to knock you up? Where is your accountability Miss Lady??

    This further ticks me off when a woman's response is "well it is my body and you can't tell me what to do." You are right it is your body. If you get preggers (married or not) it is going to take a greater toll on you (physically, mentally, emotionally) all of us women know that and have known that since at least puberty…so if you get unexpectedly knocked who's fault is it? If you have more to lose shouldn't you be more proactive about not getting caught out there?

    Women are quick to say "it took two to make it" when they have they hands out for support, but in the same breath don't want to take ANY responsibility for the fact that they are preggers. How can you call yourself responsible and NOT give the man an equal position in making the decision on whether to have the child. Just choosing to have a child (regardless of the other half's opinion) IS NOT taking full responsibility. It is selfish and immature in my honest opinion!

    Unfortunately, this will never change. It is just one of those things that women will never back down from and men just have to deal with. I think it is wrong and unfair but what can ya do? I just know it is a lucky thing I am not a dude b/c a lot of females would be "accidentally" falling down steps…

    1. I think I just heard a lot of toes being crunched, LOL!

      I think both men and women share equal responsiblility in the ultimate results though. Both men and women should be proactive about taking proper precautions. If both parties were irresponsible, both parties should def come together to discuss what will come of THEIR child. For women like me who can't stomach adoption or abortion, it is unfair to spring this on the dude at this point (already preggo)…not saying you're obligated to get one if dude requests it. But, he shouldn't be expected to be like, "Oh, aight. Cool. Bring on the baby!" LOL. In these crazy circumstances, he shouldn't be demonized for even asking you to consider an abortion. If, according to your morals/emotional state/etc., he is guaranteed an 18+ year responsibility if you get preggo, you MUST tell yo before y'all do the do. If you don't, dude does have a right to flip out a bit…and I'm sure this would hurt women's feelings.

      But, you still gonna need to fork over that cash, my brother. One way or another, you gotta pay to play (cost of condoms, cost of kids, whichever), lol…

    2. @InsomniaPoet

      So if you were a man and a woman was pregnant by you, you would push her down the steps so she would have a miscarriage? Wow.

      Well Im glad you're not a man.

      This stuff has me fully convinced that the black community is trash when it comes to pregnancy and fatherhood and all that. No wonder children are fkuced up

      And yes Im black

      1. Ladies I am not being 100% literal with the last statement. I was actually being borderline sarcastic. The point I was trying to make is those are the types of options a man could be forced to resort to IF he is being FORCED into having a baby. Just like there was a time when a woman had no choice and had to resort to less than pretty options…Watch If These Walls Could Talk sometime.

    3. I foresee ALOT of "Likes" for this comment by the end of the day.

      I understand your viewpoint but that very last sentence……….. *blank stare*

      but the truth of the matter is you may have written what the majority were afraid or ashamed to admit/say.

    4. I approve this message. All of it. We know you aren't being literal with that last statement. I agree that the reality of forcing parenthood on a man that it will give him the "caged in" feeling and thus will force him to act out. In a way, that basically turns him into your enemy. Its kinda something like… oppression.

    5. Men and women both bear the responsibility of conception. Neither one can do it alone. However, women have the burden of carrying the baby and men do not. I've seen several posters dismiss this fact but it really is an important one. Because a woman's right to her own body trumps a man's right to decide if the child will be carried to term or not, men must take proper precautions if they want to prevent pregnancy, and that includes not sticking every bad b*tch walking. The father's decision should absolutely be weighed, but men have to understand that the ultimate decision is up to the woman. Blame biology. This doesn't mean the woman has no responsibility to prevent pregnancy; she has the most responsibility because she has the greater burden. Child support is about what the child is entitled to, not what the baby mama is entitled to. This gets mixed up too many times.

  64. Also it's funny how pregnancy is blamed on the man not using a condom……not that the women didn't use any of the 10+ forms of birth control available to her. She didn't use the pill, IUD, the shot, NuvaRing, the patch, female condom, no spermicide, no diaphragm, no cervical cap, no sponge, etc……..NONE of that matters…..it's ALL because the man didn't use a condom….the ONE form of birth control available to him.

    GTFOWTBS

    1. I don't think folks are trying to blame a man for a woman's pregnancy. However, in the case where a man does not want a child despite having sexual relations with a woman, said man can reflect on his poor choices of not using a condom, not asking the woman if she was on birth control, not asking if she takes birth control regularly and as prescribed, if she had ever had a "pregnancy scare", if yes, why and how long ago, if she had ever concealed a pregnancy in the past, if yes, why, if she would conceal a pregnancy again, if she had ever had an abortion, if she would have an abortion now, and other questioning along these lines. Then said man can express his views on unplanned pregnancy and express how it would be important to him that she share if she did become pregnant. Ask her if she can agree to doing that, etc. Yes she can lie and she's a dirty liar if she does, but at least you did the minimum due diligence and asked questions, requested promises instead of just expecting a woman to act how you THINK you would act if you were a pregnant woman.

      And yes, this may not go with your usual how to bag a chick I met at the club and I don't even need to know her last name steez, BUT if you want to have reasonable expectations in case of an unplanned pregnancy and be rightfully and reasonably mad if things don't go as expected, you can do these types of things.

      If instead you mofos just want to keep a running list of all the kinds of birth control available to a woman but ain't concerned about at least putting on a condom (properly) OR sexing women who at least lied and said she was on birth control fail at life while succeeding at creating it. I'd like to conduct a few vasectomies around here and since I'm not a trained doctor I'll be using the Lorena Bobbitt approach. Ouch! LOL!

    2. There are two parts of this conversation that keeps getting dismissed:

      Point One

      1. Men DO have a choice. You can CHOOSE to use protection. You can CHOOSE not to have sex with women you don't want to procreate with. Hell, you can choose to have a vasectomy. Your CHOICES are available to you pre-conception.

      2. Women have CHOICES. They can CHOOSE not to sleep with a man they don't want to have children with. They can CHOOSES to always use protection – a variety of protections. They can CHOOSE to have their tubes ties or other methods of permanent birth control.

      So EVERYBODY has CHOICES pre-conception. EVERYONE. So all this men don't have choice is BS.

      Part 2

      Men have NO physical responsibility once conception occurs. As a matter of fact unless she pursues child support he has NO responsibility whatsoever.

      HOWEVER if a woman gets pregnant – she has choices both involving her feet in stirrups and one drastically affecting her life for a min of 18 years.

      Legally BOTH parties are held responsible for the child once the child is here. SO women aren't getting away with anything if they choose to have a child. She is physically and financially responsible for the child once conception happens.

      At MOST a man is financially responsible – and this doesn't even include the time constraints of raising the child.

      BUT to have some of you men tell it it's NOT FAIR that you have to have financial responsibility for a child you didn't want once you ABDICATED your CHOICES that you had available to you from jump?

      Mind you the woman has been legally/financially/physically responsible for the child you BOTH created from jump – even if she has an abortion that's a physical and legal responsibility that the man DOES NOT HAVE.

      So what's unfair exactly. You know it's funny 'cause when we talk money it's all the one with the gold makes the rules. But when it comes to babies – everyone should have equal say even though everyone has a say,

      Well here's the thing – the one with the uterus makes the rules – and if you have a serious problem with that then use your CHOICES from jump. Just like I tell my girls it's better to have your own than to rely on someone to make sure things are taken care.

      Well men it's better to have control over your own lives instead bitching and moaning 'cause you chose to toss your options aside.

      Wrap it up.

  65. Ok, wait, my bad if I am missing something here, but WHY is the fact that men only have one form of birth control even an issue here, and being used as an excuse? 'EFFIN USE IT. "Women have more forms of birth control available". SO WHAT? You do YOUR part, and she should do HERS. #Wordfortheday: RESPONSIBILITY. If you don't take steps to ensure that you are protected, don't whine/b*tch/moan about the consequences, whatever they may be. Stop messing with these Frowsy and/or irresponsible folks (this applies men or women) and be responsible. Damn.

  66. I'm young and naive about sex and this stuff in general, but shouldn't the adults involved already have something planned or at least discussed what would happen if the woman ever became pregnant. Im taking it the people involved probably discussed STDs and when they were last tested, but why not the "what if question?". Either way, pregnancy is something that can be completely avoided with the right measures and both parties are to blame if a pregnancy does occur. But if I were in that situation I'd tell the father, and discuss the options with him. It took two, so the other half has a right to know. Depending on where he stands on the issue will determine my decision. I just hope if that ever did happen (God forbid) I'd have sense enough to be with a guy who'd care for the child if I chose to raise him and not give him up.

    1. <blockquote cite="comment-315752">

      Elle:

      I’m young and naive about sex and this stuff in general, but shouldn’t the adults involved already have something planned or at least discussed what would happen if the woman ever became pregnant. Im taking it the people involved probably discussed STDs and when they were last tested, but why not the “what if question?”.

      In an ideal world, these conversations would happen . Unfortunately, more often than not, they don't. And even when these convos do happen, particularly as it relates to having kids, people don't always hold up their end of the bargain. Whether its the woman saying she'd keep the baby or the man saying he'd stick around and support. Sometimes life happens and sometimes people will say what they need to say to get the beats and to hell with the potential consequences.

  67. <blockquote cite="comment-315675">

    Dr. J: Tash giving women some good reasons for why they can’t sleep around like men do, but y’all ain’t reading this…

    On my days offs, I really should get on the computer more because I hate I missed this one!

    So who will men sleep around with then, if not women? This shows why NO ONE should sleep around. That way everyone is IN CONTROL of who and when they reproduce with. I don't believe in a woman trapping a dude because he could have said no. Sex was mainly put here to populate the earth. I feel sorry for no one other than a rape victim that finds themselves in an unwated situation.

  68. <blockquote cite="comment-315742">

    KAPSpecial: If instead you mofos just want to keep a running list of all the kinds of birth control available to a woman but ain’t concerned about at least putting on a condom (properly) OR sexing women who at least lied and said she was on birth control fail at life while succeeding at creating it.

    And what about the diseases…Sheesh…screw pregnancy, that's minor compared to catching DEATH. Nasty….

  69. I think that if a woman decides to terminate a pregnancy without talking to the father first, her reasons may be justifiable. Something is going on where she doesn't think its best to bring a child into that situation.

    And I'm not sure how child support ended up in this conversation but I can't help but wonder…

    If parents (married, living under one roof) complain about how expensive it is to raise children, why is it blasphemy for a woman who is a single parent to request child support? **shrugs**

  70. I wouldn't use the term obligation because frankly like it or not its a choice. No one is obligated to do anything. Should a woman tell, yeah, I don't know that she is obligated to but yeah she should. I believe a man should be informed if he is going to be a father and should be included in the thinking process and decision making that alter his life. If he decides that he doesn't want to be a father then the woman will have to consider whether or not she wants embark upon single parenthood, consider adoption or have an abortion; Unfortunately and all to commonly experience for many women. Mind you there are men who will question the validity of their impending fatherhood to avoid even the inkling of responsibility but that’s another topic all together. I do not place the value of a mother over a father. I believe both are of equal and significant value in a child’s life.

  71. I wouldn't use the term obligation because frankly like it or not its a choice. No one is obligated to do anything. Should a woman tell, yeah, I don't know that she is obligated to but yeah she should. I believe a man should be informed if he is going to be a father and should be included in the thinking process and decision making that alter his life. If he decides that he doesn't want to be a father then the woman will have to consider whether or not she wants embark upon single parenthood, consider adoption or have an abortion; Unfortunately and all to common experience for many women. Mind you there are men who will question the validity of their impending fatherhood to avoid even the inkling of responsibility but that’s another topic all together. I do not place the value of a mother over a father. I believe both are of equal and significant value in a child’s life.

  72. Been lurking for ages! Thought I'd chip in by sharing a case I was discussing with my ethics supervisor at uni:

    A couple try for a child with no success and eventually resort to IVF, which is successful and produces two embryos which are stored for implantation at a later date (after 5 years they must legally be destroyed). Eventually the couple breaks up, the man finds a new partner, and the five year deadline approaches. The woman now in her late 30s) is diagnosed with ovarian cancer and told she can never have children, so she tries to prevent the destruction of the embryos so that she can have children via a surrogate. Her ex doesnt want them as he wants no further link to his old girlfriend… so she sues…who wins?

    I thought that the right of the father not to have a child superceded the right of the mother to have one in this case so I sided with the father. and apparently the judges at the european court of human rights thought so too. ( Every other female in the class disagreed and I felt like a bitch) I think it's interesting how the balance of whose rights come first depends on the context…men are really never going to be able to have a say with abortions, unless the girl in question is an underage child of theirs. Poor billboard guy.

  73. Been lurking for ages! Thought I'd chip in by sharing a case I was discussing with my ethics supervisor at uni:

    A couple try for a child with no success and eventually resort to IVF, which is successful and produces two embryos which are stored for implantation at a later date (after 5 years they must legally be destroyed). Eventually the couple breaks up, the man finds a new partner, and the five year deadline approaches. The woman now in her late 30s) is diagnosed with ovarian cancer and told she can never have children, so she tries to prevent the destruction of the embryos so that she can have children via a surrogate. Her ex doesnt want them as he wants no further link to his old girlfriend… so she sues…who wins?

    I thought that the right of the father not to have a child superseded the right of the mother to have one in this case so I sided with the father. and apparently the judges at the european court of human rights thought so too. ( Every other female in the class disagreed and I felt like a bitch) I think it's interesting how the balance of whose rights come first depends on the context…men are really never going to be able to have a say with abortions, unless the girl in question is an underage child of theirs. Poor billboard guy.

  74. Interesting discussion here. I think one thing only; the woman gets to make the decision because she's the one that would have to carry the baby. Both parties are responsible for making sure they're not going to have the woman get pregnant but after it happens, then it's only the woman's decision how she decides to handle it. One would hope she had at least developed enough of a relationship with the man so she could discuss it with him but reality tells us differently for at least a very high number of these events.

    So, both parties get to deal with the consequences of their actions, no matter what the eventual outcome may be.

  75. Kids are why I've been paranoid about birth control ever since I knew what would happen if I had sex without it. And also the reason I've never really been comfortable hopping from bed to bed. I have nothing against free sex, it's just not for my over-worrying, over-thinking self. All I could think about would be "I can't get pregnant". Specifically because a) I'm not ready to have children, nor do I think I ever will be, and b) I don't want to have to tell a random dude they have gotten me pregnant, and to listen to their opinion on what to do with the rest of my life.

    Though I think that men should have some rights on their offspring, I don't know how to ensure that right and still have every woman have the right to an abortion. So if these two rights are being weighed against each other, I'd say the right to an abortion is more important. Besides, in probably over 80% of the cases the guy just sighs of relief, cause they don't have to deal with it at all. I don't know that many single men who'd be overjoyed to hear their jump-off was having their baby. I might be wrong.

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