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The Beautiful Black Women

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A while back, I was asked by a website (which will remain nameless) with a predominately African American audience to write a post about why I find black women beautiful. I passed on that unpaid opportunity. Not because I don’t think black women are beautiful, they are. I passed because the idea of dedicating an entire post to explaining why black women are beautiful seemed ridiculous to me. It felt like I would be stating the obvious. Why would I need to remind black women they are beautiful when seeing and accepting black women as beautiful is as natural to me as informing someone the sky is blue?

But, maybe I was wrong.

Until I started writing for predominately black websites I truly underestimated the color plight both internal and external to the black community. I was passively aware of it but it wasn’t until I was fully immersed in the comments and blogs written by and for (mostly) black consumption that I realized, stated bluntly, black people have a lot of damn issues. Least of which is our color complex.

When I say “black women are beautiful” I am describing all black women. All shapes, sizes, hairstyles and skin tones. I say this with minimal effort because it’s a fact to me. It occurs as naturally as breathing. Because it can’t be said enough, I’ll say it again, black women are beautiful.

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Still, I will admit that one of the difficulties I had in writing the requested post was I couldn’t adequately segregate what I found beautiful about black women specifically. You see, I find women beautiful period. I also believe all women naturally go through issues that are unique to women. However, I did not find these difficulties unique to black women. Granted, I am not a black woman and I will readily accept that I am not privy to the unique difficulties which may be experienced solely by black women.

Additionally, because of the beauty encompassed in all the various shades and features of black women, I could not sufficiently quantify the sole qualities I found beautiful within black women and black women alone. In other words, in describing the beautiful attributes of black women, I would be essentially explaining the beauty of women. Frankly, to me, women are beautiful but that’s not what you came here to read today.

The comments on Dr. J’s post highlighted many of the issues I see when witnessing black women’s interactions within their own sex and beyond. Nevertheless, if the following do not apply to you, then they are not meant for you and you should move on with your life amicably.

1) Light Skin v. Dark Skin. I genuinely do not understand how a light or a dark skin woman/man, who identifies themselves as black, can so eagerly disrespect another man/woman who identifies themselves as black because of their skin tone. None of us had a say in choosing our skin tone. None. Specific to today’s topic though, I will never understand how a woman can claim to be pro-black then turn around and define what black is while leaving out whole swathes of the same race of women you claim to be defending. This doesn’t make sense.

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2) The “European Complex.” You cannot say if a dark skin male finds a light skin female attractive he has a color complex as defined by this alleged “European Standard” which if it does exist – and I’m not saying it doesn’t – would affect everyone INCLUDING EUROPEANS WHO DO NOT LIVE UP TO SAID STANDARD, but if a light skin female finds a dark skin male attractive, that’s how it should be. This is an inherently flawed and blatantly contradictory logic. This doesn’t make sense.

3) You cannot add using division. Defining what is black automatically discriminates against black people that do not meet your often made up and increasingly fluid standard. It would behoove black women (and the black community as a whole) to move away from this toxic mindset as quick as possible. All black people are not from Africa and many of you have never been, have no plans to go, and are so far removed from African heritage you can’t name a place in Africa that wasn’t in an infomercial you saw on BET. If black is beautiful, then accept that black is indeed beautiful in all its various complexions. More importantly, accept all that would like to be a part of that beauty and would embrace it with equal measure if only you would allow them to do so. This makes sense.

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As a young black man masquerading as an all knowing grown black male writer, I sometimes feel I’m at a disadvantage. Having had a positive black role model in my life, my father, and an equally positive black woman in my life, my mother, I honestly cannot relate to some of the visceral comments/blogs I read on the Internet when it comes to black male and female relations. To a point, it saddens me that I even have to affirm something as apparent as the fact that black women are beautiful. Well, duh! But, if it needs to be said, it needs to be said. Truth is, I don’t have as much of a problem saying it as I do with the fact that it needs to be said at all.

Maybe that is the real problem…

Comment(281)

  1. Great post & exactly what one of my followers needs to read (wonder if she'll comment). I love black men & women. It just seems as if lately, a lot of black women haven't been feeling that kinda love lately. I know black women are beautiful. I'm beautiful. I don't care who you are & what you feel. I know what I am. Just like the *Martin voice* Tell me you loooovveeee meeeee "epidemic", women wanna hear you love em all the time, I guess black women want to hear and be reminded that we're beautiful as we tell you whose pu$$y this is..kidding!.

    *snaps fingers*

  2. "You cannot add using division. Defining what is black automatically discriminates against black people that do not meet your often made up and increasingly fluid standard."

    Realest thing I've read in a while. Great post.

  3. Yes! I take issue with it needing to be said!

    Gawd! When we get past the need for outside validation…hopefully soon;)

    Be Blessed Yall!

  4. Thank you for piggy-backing on the apparent unfinished business of yesterday's post.

    We applaud your claim to love black women and that we're beautiful. Although, while not a personal relationship, the inherit relationship that we minorities have with each other must still be nurtured. Just as you would think it ludicrous to tell your mother, sister, girlfriend, female dog that the fact that you love them negates the need to tell them, the same is true here!

    Yes, we need to hear it and we need to hear it often…whether or not, but definitely because…we are always so unfairly attacked on all sides.

    I will not repeat the compelling arguments in yesterday's post about the dark/light issue that plagues our race, but whether or not you believe it to hold any weight, it's still a very real issue that should not be invalidated. There should be a platform to finally vomit all the thoughts and feelings we have on such a sensitive topic as this, without being accused of being sensitive or old-fashioned. Sure, let's put this issue to rest once and for all, but the only way to do so is speak on it.

    I remember a time in the 90s when all I read, heard or saw were evidence of the "Black is Beautiful" proclamation. It truly was beautiful to see!! Men weren't afraid to approach a sistah just to pay her a compliment, women were adequately drenched and their self-esteems soared.

    Unfortunately, when the compliments ended, the thirst began…then even less compliments…and now we're parched… to make it worse, actual insults began…and now we're arid…and even worse still, we see our men gravitating towards the complete opposite of us and now we're damn near dehydrated.

    Bringing back posts such as yours is gatorade for our souls. We never stopped being beautiful, but "you" (as in equally beautiful black men) just stopped telling us.

    That my dear…is the result.

    1. Mmmmmhhhhh.

      I remember my freshman year in college, i would just say "Hello" and nod my head at a black woman and in return get a (I don't know you) blank stare or she would simply and conveniently look away as I looked to acknowledge her presence as a black woman on a predominantly white campus. I guess both non-verbal responses were because she was afraid that my greeting to her was a preliminary attempt at hollering at her … Smh … I proceeded to inform the campus as a whole via Facebook (back when u could only be friends with ppl from the same school) and the young public at a whole (Blackplanet … Lol) that every man that says hello isn't trying to wax your panties upon greeting although we may be thinking about waxing. But there is a difference between trying and thinking.

      I guess somewhere in between the 90s and the 00s, something happened for the compliments to end cuz now a compliment or an acknowledgment is an exhibition of Thirst.

      Anyways, I'd love for us as black people to enjoy being black and look to improve the quality of our lives and others around us simply cuz we are in this together.

      1. " I guess somewhere in between the 90s and the 00s, something happened for the compliments to end cuz now a compliment or an acknowledgment is an exhibition of Thirst."

        OMG! If this ain't the truth! It takes every fiber in my body to avoid giving some of these fine sisters compliments because I ain't tryin to look thirsty. And I don't see many of these black women with self-esteem issues, unless they're just masking them with arrogance and inflated egos (but then again I live up North now). I wish BOTH black men and black women would give each other compliments JUST BECAUSE. Don't get me wrong I sort of understand why women don't do it, because a woman seeing a man as good-looking doesn't necessarily mean that she wants to get to know him and possibly pursue something, but if she tells him he'll most likely see it as an invitation. I get that. So maybe just start telling men you see walking on the street as you're riding in a car (that way they can't force a convo lol)

        Perfect example:

        Recently as I was walking down 10th street in Philly and this cute older black woman (probably late 30s) was walking past on her cell phone and stopped mid-sentence, looked at me and said "He's cute" then went right back to talking on the phone. I looked back and she kept walking, didn't look back, didn't expect me to approach or anything, didn't want any favors in return. It was literally a free compliment. I always tell myself that I don't need compliments and that I'm secure even if no chick tells me or thinks that I'm attractive, but that unexpected compliment really put me in a good mood and had my ass smiling (while walking and sweating in the blistering sun). I felt compelled to give more women compliments (without expecting anything in return) because I wanted someone else to feel how I felt when I got that compliment.

        I swear it feels way better to give(and obviously receive) compliments/love than to throw shade/hate and criticize. If only we all behaved this way, I think empathy, respect, cooperation, and progress would follow. But maybe I'm too optimistic…

        1. Free compliments are the sweetest thing. They'll have me smiling at random. Sometimes I steal them and run, though. I'll sweetly acknowledge the compliment and dougie my way out of the area before they get a chance to complete the follow-up request that I see coming. And you're absolutely right: positiveness breads positiveness. There'll always be sourpusses out there, but a lot more good than harm would come from us focusing more on uplifting each other than tearing our fellow man or woman down at every available opportunity.

        2. I like this. I just wish it didn't have to be this way. I guess I don't get why the whole world is so afraid of being seen as "thirsty." Sometimes, you're just being nice. Sometimes you're just being honest. I'd like to think that most women (and men) can appreciate a free compliment. But what do I know? According to WIM, not much (lol).

        3. @Keona

          THIS!!!!!!!!!!!

          "Sometimes, you’re just being nice. Sometimes you’re just being honest. "

          I give compliments freely, I enjoy receiving compliments. Call me thirsty if ya want to – I'ma still compliment the ish outta folks. I like what I like and I want you to know.

          *sips contently*

        4. Great comment, Justmetheguy! Something for me to think about…cause I NEVER do stuff like that and I usually hate unwanted attention (no clue why). Def food for thought…

      2. w/u Top5!

        I try to nod or greet back brothas, but usually Im too shy 🙁

        Mayb some of those ladies just were shy. Im trying to be more open socially though (fingers crossed!), although I think thats what we lack in our present generation.

        We gotta bring back MUTUAL LUV/RESPECT!

    2. @Tash: Great comment. Especially this quote, "Just as you would think it ludicrous to tell your mother, sister, girlfriend, female dog that the fact that you love them negates the need to tell them, the same is true here!" Interesting take.

      However, concerning this:

      "I remember a time in the 90s when all I read, heard or saw were evidence of the “Black is Beautiful” proclamation. It truly was beautiful to see!! Men weren’t afraid to approach a sistah just to pay her a compliment, women were adequately drenched and their self-esteems soared."

      Honestly, that wasnt my experience. Of course, in the 90s I was only in my teens so maybe I wasnt fully aware of the connection. Sort of like I didnt appreciate the movie Love Jones when it came out. (MESSAGE!) Perhaps I was too young to recognize the relationships you were referring to. In my experience, while it wasnt bad, it wasnt good either. I don't feel the need to go into detail today but let's just say, I remember there being quite a few issues within the black community specific to my own little teenage network of friends and as a light skin male, always feeling the need to "prove" my blackness while simultaneously not being fully accepted. I wasnt shunned but I wasnt "black enough" either. I digress…

      Specific to men complimenting women, you and @Top5DOA accurately captured my thoughts. I dont think this is limited to black men and women but it is difficult to simply give a compliment these days without being labeled as thirsty — sometimes by the very woman you were simply trying to compliment.

    3. " Just as you would think it ludicrous to tell your mother, sister, girlfriend, female dog that the fact that you love them negates the need to tell them, the same is true here!"

      But a lot of people don't think it's ludicrous to tell their family members that. Only recently (like 2 or 3 years ago) did members of my family start saying "I love you", this was only after relatives started dying young and we realized that our time on this Earth is very limited. My family always showed love but didn't really "tell" it. Even now we only do it when getting off the phone with each other (and not even every time). A lot of women don't realize this, but I'm one of those people who believes what you show me WAAAAY more than what you tell me. It's an adjustment to force myself to go around telling my S/O that I love her when I feel as though I've made it obvious.

  5. This post explains exactly how I feel. I have never been able to grasp the concept of one shade being better than the other. If the "better" race hangs out in the sun long enough, they'll look like the shades that they put down. So what's the point? But maybe that only makes sense to me.

    Anyway, great job WIM.

  6. On twitter, it is not uncommon to find #TeamDarkSkin or #TeamLightSkin in people's bios. BLACK people I should add. Of all the things in the universe that could divide us as a people, we choose skin tone???? Color??? We, whose ancestors died harsh deaths just because of their skin, are now discriminating against each other based on these same reasons? Here's an idea. The very MOMENT you, as a black person, feel superior or believe one group of black people is superior to another based SOLELY on skin tone, you justify every action and doctrine of the KKK. Harsh? Maybe. Truth? You're damned right!

    1. Hopefully, this whole lightskin/ darkskin debate can die a slow and painful death and we can all go back to discussing how men drive us crazy and yet, how we cannot live without them!

    2. "The very MOMENT you, as a black person, feel superior or believe one group of black people is superior to another based SOLELY on skin tone, you justify every action and doctrine of the KKK. "

      Yes!

    3. "The very MOMENT you, as a black person, feel superior or believe one group of black people is superior to another based SOLELY on skin tone, you justify every action and doctrine of the KKK. Harsh? Maybe. Truth? You’re damned right!"

      This. All day. A million times.

    4. I dont know whats worst #Team light/dark skin or those light skin vs dar kskin party flyers. The sad thing is lots of women go to those parties trying to win the "beauty crown" for their skin tone.

      1. "The sad thing is lots of women go to those parties trying to win the “beauty crown” for their skin tone."

        Ok, just to be clear, there aren't really these types of parties???????????

        You're just being facetious, right???

        cause that is said… where, and who are these people, REALLY????

        1. Oh believe you me, it's not a joke. I'm sure I've been invited to such parties as recently as a couple of months ago via FB. Or the ones where light skinned girls get to have x amount of free drinks, or free cover. And I'm in Canada.

        2. no these are the themes of some people's real life parties, no lie. At least I've seen one or two in new york.

        3. "Or the ones where light skinned girls get to have x amount of free drinks, or free cover. And I’m in Canada"

          *JawDrop*

          That ish is crazy.

        4. @Kema
          http://www.thegrio.com/entertainment/light-skin-v

          I clicked on the link thinking this must be a joke. WOW, was I wrong.

          How have we gotten this far, and yet still living shackled to our own self-hated? This has got to stop somewhere. and this have definitely gone too far, when there's a promotor and club owner somewhere getting rich somewhere on the auction block all over again. And then the women who's ignorance is buying into it. WOW. Who would be caught at one of these parties???

        5. There was a similar themed-night at a club here in Ohio. It was a huge topic of discussion on the local talk radio show in the morning. Obviously the idea is rather divisive and a joke. However, the party I was referring to was stacked I heard. I'm sure the club promoters know it's insensitive, but they the more people that talk about it gives them free publicity and drives in more customers hence more revenue.

          I believe most of the people that attend these events aren't socially conscious enough to really think it's that big of a deal. To them it's a fun theme not to be taken too seriously. They treat this theme no different than the "North side vs. West side" night at the club or "Long hair vs. short hair". So for them, the club and the promoters it's a win/win/win….*shrugs*

  7. * Takes out pen to cosign the entire post *

    The 3 key points you made towards the end of the post were right on the money. Trying to define what is black by placing a limit on it in reference to a certain skin color will lead/has led to discrimination and acts of hate by blacks against other blacks. The closer we come as a community to realising that their are many variations of black and accept as well as respect the many shades that it comes in, the closer we will move to solving other problems.

  8. Now hopefully, this whole lightskin/ darkskin debate can die a slow and painful death and we can all go back to discussing how men drive us crazy and yet we cannot live without them!

  9. great post, but one commment i want to comment on:

    "All black people are not from Africa and many of you have never been, have no plans to go, and are so far removed from African heritage you can’t name a place in Africa that wasn’t in an infomercial you saw on BET"

    If black ppl are not from Africa then were are they from? true we may not know where exactly on the continent we are from, but we are from Africa. A 5th or 6th generation Italians(or any other ethnicity born in america) don't say "i'm not Italian or identify myself as being from Italy bc I don't know what city in Italy i'm from" so why should black ppl?

    Then again it all goes hand in hand with learned(taught) self denial/hatred and reshaping legacy of our ppl. Instead of facing/questioning harsh reality; I think its easy for us to sometimes try to forget history and chalk it up as "I/we not from africa" rather than face it.

    I just find it ironic to say "blk ppl shouldn't debate lightskin/darkskin", then follow up w/sating "blk ppl aren't from africa. and i'm not calling you out specifically, bc i think we all are guilty of saying/thinking/buying into that. Fact is american history and our lack of african history has complicated things for all blacks and ppl of color in america, i mean how/why would we identify yourself as a color anyway? Asians don't call themselves "yellow" but we are content/comfortable calling ourselves "black" smh.(thats a whole nother discussion in it self but i hope you get my point)

    Bottom line, if you are black in america(or any other county in the world) you ancestors came from africa(that even goes for majority of blacks that identify themselves as west indies/Caribbean too). History shows us slaves were bought from Africa to European colonies;and even oldest skeletal remains in the world were found in africa(yea thats yet another discussion). i just feel saying "black ppl aren't from Africa" is such a disservice to our ancestors and plays in to the denial and reshaping of history/legacy of Africa

    1. I understand where you're coming from, but I have to counter something.

      Saying all black people are from Africa is kind of like saying that all humans are descended from chimps (or Adam and Eve, if you find issue with my chimp statement). For the most part, African-Americans are so far removed from this that the only unifying connection is skin color.

      I personally think that African-American is a highly insulting term. Most African Americans arent 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd generation immigrants. Very few of them know what their African roots may be (unless they were inspired by Oprah's effort to find her original tribe). African-Americans are just as American, if not more, than our white counterparts.

      And its not like this just goes one way – Africans tend to make a point to distinct themselves from American (or Western) black as well. There's a reason why terms like "akata" or "mzungu" are used to refer to Western Blacks. To most Africans, we are just as much a foreigner as if any other race came to visit. Heck, even I face this problem and my family is East & North African.

      And to respond to your statement – "A 5th or 6th generation Italians(or any other ethnicity born in america) don’t say “i’m not Italian or identify myself as being from Italy bc I don’t know what city in Italy i’m from” so why should black ppl?" Ummm, yes they do. It's called referring to themselves as white, without any other specification. I don't know what your experiences have been, but I have tons of white friends that have no clue of their ethnic descent – nor do they care.

      Bottom line – I think its misguided to assume that only blacks are differentiating themselves Africans. Its a mutual situation.

      1. " And its not like this just goes one way – Africans tend to make a point to distinct themselves from American (or Western) black as well. There’s a reason why terms like “akata” or “mzungu” are used to refer to Western Blacks. To most Africans, we are just as much a foreigner as if any other race came to visit."

        This is actually a good point. My time in DC taught me this. It had never crossed my mind at all before I lived in DC where Africans and West Indians outnumber Afro-Americans (or at least it feels that way). But even still, there are just as many (maybe more) who understand why we're disconnected from Africa and still see us as their own. They still look at us as distant cousins who were kidnapped, and that inspires me not to just say "f*ck Africa, I'm not African, and they don't wanna claim us no way". There's so much potential (culturally and financially) for black unity on a nation and worldwide level, but people are so busy trying to make distinctions and feel special that we probably won't get anywhere near that potential anytime soon. Anywho I'm totally cool with being referred to as Afro-American or African-American (just like 4th generation Asians are ok being called Asian-American). Everybody has a different perspective

      2. Wow…um thanks Shamira..

        U just showed how BACKWARDS & CONFUSED African Americans ARE…

        I would RATHER have an AFRICAN Heritage… than JUST a slaves AMERICAN past…

        1. @Oh Ok

          Now I understand how Dr J feel when people read his statement the wrong way. I didn't say black americans don't have African heritage. Its obvious we do. What I said was we're so far removed from our African roots that to use the term African-Americans (which implies that we are guests and immigrants to this county) would be a disservice to the roots and legacy that has been nurtured here.

          Your comments about a slaves American past are your own burden to bear. Its an indisputable part of history – if you have an issue with it, then find a time machine. But its also a testament to the strength of a race that a group of people survived such inhumane treatment and are continuing to resist the constraints of the status quo to grow to become bigger and better parts of society. I don't know why you're so seemingly disgusted by that. But you may have meant that differently…

          And to clarify, not that it should matter, my dad is North African/Middle Eastern and my mom is East African/Southern African. So you might want to watch how quickly you label people and how you assign insults to a group of individuals.

          In the future, if you want to dispute my comments, feel free, but try to be more eloquent about. I won't acknowledge rude dismissiveness again. You have every right to disagree, but no right to insult.

        2. My opinion is that we are the descendents of people that were forced into the African Diaspora. We come from those people, and yes, that heritage; which for many of us stems from Sub Saharan/ West African culture. Although most Africans were not mostly decedents from royalty they still had a greater role and purpose than what was forced upon them through slavery.

          I was disgusted by your comments because regardless of our generation we still not only share a skin color, but also blood/DNA. We still come from Africa. PERIOD. No matter the country.

          Our ancestors went through many types of inhumane treatment for hundreds of yrs with slavery and the Jim Crow Act. To just feel we are only American is a disservice to MY ancestors that went through hell and back to just survive the Middle Passage only to have to endure being enslaved. Our African culture/dialect was taken away from us by tearing our families/tribes/clans apart. We were forced to only recognize and understand American customs. And because of this we should deny where we originally come from?

          I don't need a time machine to know my past. I live it everyday as a living record of my history. Being an African American does NOT have a specific generation or family/tribe name. But somewhere we are linked so instead of using verbiage that separates; instead realize that we are in the same boat. Maybe then we can join forces and help each other out within Africa and in the West.

      3. "Africans tend to make a point to distinct themselves from American (or Western) black as well."

        P.S. Please Do NOT make blanket comments like this!

        We need to build relationships instead of tearing them down with comments like these…

        1. …Am I wrong?

          This is not tearing down relationships. Black is black is black. Bet the distinction between African and Black American is real.

    2. "If black ppl are not from Africa then were are they from? true we may not know where exactly on the continent we are from, but we are from Africa. A 5th or 6th generation Italians(or any other ethnicity born in america) don’t say “i’m not Italian or identify myself as being from Italy bc I don’t know what city in Italy i’m from” so why should black ppl? "

      The problem with the quote above is that it doesn't take into account the fact that Africa is a continent and Italy is a country. While you may not hear an 5th or 6th generation Italian American deny their Italian roots, you also won't hear them identifying themselves by the continent they're from. So it's not really accurate to compare calling yourself "African American" to "Italian American," it is more accurate to compare calling yourself "African American" to someone calling themselves "European American" or "Asian American" or "South American American." When you put it in that context, it doesn't make much sense does it?

      This all goes back to the fact that most folks of color in this country have no idea where our families came from on the continent of Africa so as a culture, we've just adopted the whole continent. That never made sense to me. In addition to that, the Africa that exists today is not the same Africa our distant relatives were snatched from. Many of the nations that existed then do not exist now, or have different names. Tribal identification isn't as paramount today as it was a few hundred years ago. Calling ourselves African American doesn't really make sense.

      Many of our families have been here since before the revolutionary war. We're not 5th or 6th generation, we're like 9th, 10th, 12th, 20th generation Americans. All of this is why I tend to identify myself as 'Black American' not 'African American.' Besides all that, many Africans laugh at us when we call ourselves African American.

      1. Yes, but aren't we more than just the descendants of slaves? Our history does not begin there – no matter how long ago it was. That is my only problem with adopting a color, as opposed to a continent. I wish there were a better way to define our culture and heritage without dismissing who our ancestors were prior to their arrival in America; regardless of the fact that we do not know specifically where they came from. Identifying as black american just seems counterproductive to the struggle against being recognized as a people beyond our skin color.

        1. The thing is though – there isn't a monolithic 'African culture'. It's a continent full of hundreds of different practices and beliefs completely distinct from each other. Bundling them all up together in a tight bow as a single entity seems really disrespectful to me. Black American culture is vastly distinct between that and each and every African culture. It's not dismissing out ancestors, it is recognizing that we have long since stopped having any real connection to 'Africa'. The only people that are honestly trying to tell you otherwise, are the people that are trying to get some money out of your pocket or for you to join their church/cult/belief system.

        2. See, I don't think its dismissing your ancestors when you don't even know them. And I don't mean have never seen a picture – but have no concept of where you come from and how specifically you got here. As long as you have a darker pigmentation, there's no denying your origins. But to claim that blacks should identify with Africa more than America – the latter being all that they know, for the most part – is continuing to group someone solely based on color and dismissing a lot of other factors that have affected the past few hundred years.

        3. I agree with LetsLove here.

          I understand your point Most, but as indicated by above by Lets, I don't think our history should start once we as a people were brought over here as slaves. I'd like to think we as a people were rather descendants of Kings and Queens in Africa that sold a significant amount of their people to the Europeans (but that's another convo). Regardless of how many generations removed I am from my host continent and how much African of today would rather disown "Black Americans" and befriend "White Americans", there's still a place deep down inside my heart that connects with Africa. It's prolly more of an ideology/mindset than anything else, but still…

          I've never once said i was a Black American nor will i ever, but I also don't really care to solely refer to myself as Black either … African American is fitting, despite the lack of respect it gets from us Black people and Africans.

        4. I can't buy this 'we are kings and queens' argument. The vast majority of cultures in the world have had something that would of been the equivalent to a monarchy at some point and time. The English came from kings and queens. That's why their ass came here! A very minuscule among of African people actually have roots to real kings and queens genetically speaking anyway, so that argument doesn't really fly.

        5. Hence why i said "I'd like to think", but realistically we weren't. All societies back then had rulers and for there to still be a present-day African presence, there had to be people who stayed back during the slave trade (The traders). So, the "Rulers" sold the common folk to the Europeans, which would really just make us descendants of common folk from Africa.
          But regardless of all of that, it still doesn't negate the fact that my genealogical makeup doesn't start after the slave trade.

        6. Its funny how those of African descent are defined in America. Like Malik said we treat the whole continent as if its one country.In England,people aren't defined as African but by the country of their birth.They are either Nigerian or South African. I'm sure this its consistent throughout Europe.

          As for the argument about being descended from kings and queens we all can't male that blanket statement, but I get why the argument is made.I think its, a way too connect with the ancestors we were snatched from.I don't think those Africans knew they were selling people off into the slavery that existed in the Americas

        7. @Malik: "The thing is though – there isn’t a monolithic ‘African culture’. It’s a continent full of hundreds of different practices and beliefs completely distinct from each other."

          This is an accurate statement. At the same time, when you are traveling abroad (well, actually I'm going to use myself because I'm not sure where you're from), I wouldnt describe myself as a Texan. I would be an American. From there, I can preceed that with Black or African – American and because of our limited and convoluted knowledge of our heritage, both would be accurate.

          Africa is unique because of the tribal situation, which I will admit, I am not fully versed in so I will not bother to delve too far into that subject matter. I'm just saying, IF you are going to identify with Africa it does make sense to identify with the whole continent (or specifically the tribe if you know it but how many people really know that?). I think most blacks/African Americans are simply trying to identify with SOMETHING, so if they are going to choose, I can understand them identifying with African American above all others. This is not to discount those who describe themselves as Black Americans. I think it's two perspectives on one topic. I think we're lumping those together too easily here and while related, it is not the exact same thing.

        8. @Malik

          "The thing is though – there isn’t a monolithic ‘African culture’. It’s a continent full of hundreds of different practices and beliefs completely distinct from each other. Bundling them all up together in a tight bow as a single entity seems really disrespectful to me."

          I understand that and agree with you – but the goal is not to identify those in Africa, the term African American refers to American born descendants of african slaves. Therefore, the fact that "African" does not distinguish the cultures in Africa is irrelevant here – they have the ability to identify themselves appropriately. For that reason I don't see it as disrespectful – I do, however, get what you mean by that.

          @Most

          Yeah, your right about the need to take ownership and be proud of our history here, great points. We most certainly did build this nation – this fact is far too commonly glossed over.

          On the Kings and Queens subject…. yeah we might have been sold/snatched into slavery for some questionable reasons – but is it not true that only the strongest were selected and, later, survived? I never thought of the terms "Kings and Queens" meaning literal royalty – I have always thought it to refer to our physical and mental strength to achieve and overcome.

      2. @ Most

        Thank you for summing up exactly what I try to explain to people about the black american vs african american identification situation so eloquently. Every time I try to explain this to people they look at me like I'm crazy and/or try to argue me down.

        @ WIM thank you for this post because everything you said was important to hear (read). 🙂

        1. "All of this is why I tend to identify myself as ‘Black American’ not ‘African American.’ Besides all that, many Africans laugh at us when we call ourselves African American."

          True ish, the only thing is even in America we have so many black people from different islands and countries (Spanish countries in South America) who don’t associate themselves with being black as if it's a crime. We were in a Black Student union meeting one time and the black kids from the south talked about how they didn’t understand why some black kids in the north were so hell bent on distancing themselves from being called black or even African American. One example is in NY we have many black people from different islands, I notice that a lot of those kids don’t consider themselves black they'll go “I’m not black I’m Haitian". It's like ok you might be Haitian but that doesn’t stop you from being black.

          I also hate when African’s from Africa laugh at us for using that term “ African American” we use that term to give us some connection back to you, but instead of understanding they separate us more as if were not as good. Lots of black people from Africa and the islands feel like African American’s don’t have any culture, but that a whole another thing.

        2. @Top5DOA you're kind of glossing over history there. A lot of the kings and queens that we supposedly descended from sold us for profit. Nor did we all descend from them.

          Also, the reason why I have an issue with the term Africa-Americans is because it implies that we are immigrants or guests in a country when in reality our connection with American culture is just as deep as the white settlers. Paying homage to your heritage is fine – but the fact remains that if you were to go to Africa now and live there, you would be a guest. That's just how I feel though.

        3. @Smilez

          "I notice that a lot of those kids don’t consider themselves black they’ll go “I’m not black I’m Haitian”. It’s like ok you might be Haitian but that doesn’t stop you from being black""

          I think this ties to the statement made by African in America

          "i mean how/why would we identify yourself as a color anyway? Asians don’t call themselves “yellow” but we are content/comfortable calling ourselves “black” "

          When West Indians / (black) Hispanics 'deny being black' I dont see it as denying their African descent.

        4. Dare I say "black" is just a reference for what kind of skin pigmentation you have. If you start saying black-american you'd be excluding the subset who have different amounts/types of melanin compared to their darker counterparts <— sounds like further segregation to me.

          Besides according to science all human form originated in Africa so there shouldn't be a problem with anyone claiming Africa as whole, irrespective of whether or not they know the exact region.

          The whole 'Africans wanting to differentiate themselves from African-Americans' bit is mainly a cultural thing. I don't have a problem with being considered African-American or Caribbean or whatever else, but I also want you to be aware that I may be operating under different set of paradigms than you associate with those groups.

          To me color and race are rather insignificant issues; respect and consideration of one another are really all we need.

      3. @LetsLove I hear you, I'm not denying my connection to my ancestors on the African Continent, I'm just saying it's not something I can speak to directly with any sort of confidence. On the flip side, I feel like folks who are overly afro-centric tend to skip over our history here in this country which I think we should be proud of. I'm proud of what we've been able to accomplish here. I'm also proud of the fact that we built one of the most powerful nations the world has ever known. I think the first part of claiming what we're due is to develop some pride in our country. Take ownership of it. Act like it's ours.

        @Top5 – I hate to break the news to you homey, but the vast majority of us didn't come from Kings and Queens. A good # of the slaves brought to this country were people who were sold to white folks because they were in debt, had committed crimes or things of that nature. A good number of our ancestors were just snatched – sure – but most of us were sold by our own people. As you might imagine, they weren't selling their Kings and Queens. To the credit of the folks that sold us – they had no real concept of what American slavery – chattel slavery – was like. They had no idea that we'd be slaves the rest of our lives and our offspring would be slaves and their offspring would be slaves too.

        I guess, at the end of the day, it's not that I'm not proud of my African Heritage, it's just that I'm more proud of my Black American Heritage so I choose to focus my cultural identification on that.

        1. Agreed Most … My reply at 10:06 pretty much said exactly what you just said. My non-existent ignorance would be a self-esteem boost for our people if indeed i truly was being naive and ignorant, but in actuality i know what i'd like to think isn't quite reality.

          Blafrican American is my solution.

      4. The term "African-American" is inaccurate and very insulting. Its too vague and does not identify a particular country or culture. I've never identified with that term but still I embrace my African ancestry.

        I am a "Black American"–for me this includes my Carribean, Latin, South American & African roots.

        I think its important that we let individuals express what their culture is whether its African, Black, African-American, Carribean–whatever.

      5. "At the same time, when you are traveling abroad (well, actually I’m going to use myself because I’m not sure where you’re from), I wouldnt describe myself as a Texan. I would be an American."

        But even still… we wouldn't say North American (the entire continent) like our people are forced to say "African" because we don't know our ties to a specific country. That's the privilege that folks from other cultures have… they are able to trace down their ancestors to a specific country with little to no effort. Us? We got a little more work to do. And by a little, I mean "a lot." Lawd…

      6. " When you put it in that context, it doesn’t make much sense does it?"

        Actually it still makes sense to me. Most of us still do refer to Asian-Americans as Asian-Americans (or worse, simply "Asian"). So I disagree with you. Also, blacks whose ancestors were transplanted against their will CAN NOT be compared to people that came here voluntarily. I'm sorry, I just disagree with the juxtaposition of any race when it comes to us, because our path to becoming "American" (a brand, not really a nationality imo) is just too unique. So I hear what you're saying, I just disagree.

        1. "Most of us still do refer to Asian-Americans as Asian-Americans (or worse, simply “Asian”)."

          People ignorantly call folks from the Asian continent "Asian" because you don't know where they're from. I challenge you to find a person who was born here but whose family is from India or China that says they're "Asian American." They probably call themselves "Indian American," or "Chinese American."

          That said, I agree we should not compare black folks who were brought here to any other culture that's not what's happening here though. On the contrary, what I'm saying is that the folks born of the africans brought to this country are so unique that you can't use the typical "insert country of origin + American" nomenclature we usually use. That's why I use "Black American"

        2. "but whose family is from India or China that says they’re “Asian American.” They probably call themselves “Indian American,” or “Chinese American.”

          No way. I live in a city where there's an over-abundance of those group, went to a school with tonnes of them, work with them and in 11 years, I've never heard any one of them refer to themselves as 'chinese american' or 'indian-american'…japanese-american? naw they just say mandarin, japanese, indian, pakistani, malaysian etc Although they may say "I'm american, but my parents are …."

        3. I think it's important that we don't forget that most people here (including those of European descent) immigrated here. There is a difference between those of us whose ancestors arrived here by force than those who arrived by choice, and I find nothing wrong with wanting to be remember this detail in our vast and varied histories.

          But I think it's more important that we don't let these differences deter us from recognizing that the rest of the world sees us as one group, regardless of how we got here and where we're going. There's strength in numbers, and we shouldn't let things like skin tone and place of birth keep us from uniting and celebrating the parts of our culture that we share.

      7. Long time reader first time poster. We all know most of us are descendants from slavery, but we have been so culturally mixed thought the generations with white, Hispanic, Native American(most of us have some form of Indian in us) that isn’t a tad bit disrespectful to our other heritages to just completely classify ourselves as “African American”. Most Italian Americans that I know are 100% Italian even if their families are immigrants. Those that are not usually disclose what they are mixed with when asked what they are.

    3. @African in america: For the most part, TheMostInterestingManInTheWorld and Shamira have articulated my thoughts. Perhaps better than I could have done myself but I'll respond directly to your comment.

      "If black ppl are not from Africa then were are they from? true we may not know where exactly on the continent we are from, but we are from Africa. A 5th or 6th generation Italians(or any other ethnicity born in america) don’t say “i’m not Italian or identify myself as being from Italy bc I don’t know what city in Italy i’m from” so why should black ppl?

      Then again it all goes hand in hand with learned(taught) self denial/hatred and reshaping legacy of our ppl. Instead of facing/questioning harsh reality; I think its easy for us to sometimes try to forget history and chalk it up as “I/we not from africa” rather than face it.<b />"

      Well, from an anthropological stand point, we all originate from Africa. So, that is not really what I meant. In fact, your later quote is closer to the context of my intent.

      "Bottom line, if you are black in america(or any other county in the world) you ancestors came from africa(that even goes for majority of blacks that identify themselves as west indies/Caribbean too). History shows us slaves were bought from Africa to European colonies;and even oldest skeletal remains in the world were found in africa(yea thats yet another discussion). i just feel saying “black ppl aren’t from Africa” is such a disservice to our ancestors and plays in to the denial and reshaping of history/legacy of Africa."

      I agree, especially with the first two sentences. I dont think my statements do a disservice to our ancestors, although I realize you said you werent addressing me specifically with your thoughts. What I was saying is most people who engage in these "debates" arent as educated about their roots as they often try to be. Also, in my opinion, the true disservice is to divide the race you are trying to unite with rhetoric that is not even fully vetted in fact and riddled with opinions, biased and often incorrect opinions on top of that.

      Pertaining to your other point, while I recognize it is broader than the topic I was addressing today, I'm not sure we are reshaping or redefining our legacy. I definitely am not nor was I attempting to. I was speaking in the context of African Americans or Black-Americans, who by your very admittance have difficulty identifying with and grasping their legacy and history by the very nature of how we came to be here and exist in today’s society. Besides, history is history, I’m not sure it can be redefined. But, as my father told me once, "history is often the version of the story told by the guy who survived long enough to lie about it."

      1. @ Kema

        They might not be denying their African roots but they don’t acknowledge them either. One girl said "why would I acknowledge those roots when I have my own Haitian heritage. Blacks in America only use the term black/African American because they have no culture".

        And blacks from South America/ Spanish Caribbean countries deny having those ties to Africa as well, even the ones who look just as black as me.

    4. Honestly as a full blooded African woman, If someone does not define themselves as African, I'm just fine with it, I don't feel insulted, I'm not the bit upset, It's their choice to deny their heritage and it does not affect me.
      You made a great point @ "5or 6th generations of Italians, don't sit around talking about, I'm not Italian, i don't identify with Italy, because i don't know a city in Italy " they will proudly announce to you that they are from Italy, and keep it moving, but as far as black people are concerned it is up to them, to deny what they want to deny, Just don't be surprised when you get attitudes from Africans, since basically you think you're too good to be one of us,I've witnessed it so many times, black people making fun of African fashion, accents or music and then being mad when they get called out. My husband is Black and We recently found out he is from Ghana, LORD if he wasn't a proud African before, i can't sleep this fool listening to Ghanaian news,music, I think i speak Ashanti cause of him ^^

      1. Yeah, from what I see, different people address the situation differently. My boyfriend is kind of like your husband, he's 1/2 black 1/2 Haitian, and proud of it, but he loves all things African diaspora. In a similar way, I embrace black culture here, as well my the culture of my home country. I find it very interesting when black-Americans claim they have no culture, especially as people all over the world emulating you all, loving the stuff you created, self-included. Still, there are many Africans who feel closer to black Americans than they do to white Americans, in a similar sense that blacks here feel no ties to Africa, and I think its understandable.

        I'm personally one of those people who will not correct people if they refer to me as black, but when introducing myself, I do state my country. Not because I'm trying to distinguish myself from blacks here, but because I'm proud of where I come from.

        I think its sad that there can be so much contention between the two groups because it doesn't have to be that way. The people who hold the most animosity towards the other group are often the people who have the least exposure to the other.

        1. Girl! you spoke it, we can't even like/embrace each other, yet we demand respect from other cultures…

  10. Idk what the deal is… But let us see what I am going to say…

    Black women are beautiful, but I find it more beneficial to keep that to myself in the name of getting pu$$y… Unless a woman is at peace with herself and/or I am a high status male… It is always beneficial to keep her self-esteem low…

    I never understood the light vs dark swag… I am dark skin, and do remember my ex preferring lighter skin men, but it never bothered me personally…

    I think the stereotype is sooo deep rooted that you have light skin girls working hard to live up to the stereotype, and then you have dark skin women feel like they can't compete in the dating marketplace, so they don't try there best, and that help perpetuate the stereotype…

    Slavery & class discrimination (the lighter you were, you got better treatment) definitely plays a role… How big, don't know, don't care

    I don't understand how black women have low-self esteem about themselves… Maybe fatherlessness & child abuse plays a role…

    Cultural discrimination among blacks is annoying… But in my experience, I always had black people who disliked me because I was articulate… So, I feel like it was an inferiority complex…

    And I do prefer #TeamDarkSkin & White women, but I like good wholesome feminine women even more… Very rare creature in America these days

    SSTTE

    1. I don’t understand how black women have low-self esteem about themselves…

      Because we are Human Beings.. Just like italians, jews, greeks, asians, etc. WE all, men and womeb suffer from LSE from time to time.

      1. I was referring to CHRONIC LSE…

        Where even if you point out how wonderful someone is, they find an extraordinary way to feel like dirt…

        They literally have a script in their brain that tells them that they ain't sh*t…

        Someone installed it early in life & they never confronted/got rid of/rewritten the script…

        And what they see reflects that…

        SSTTE

      2. GirlSixx: "I don’t understand how black women have low-self esteem about themselves…"

        I never truly believed black women did, but I see A LOT do, and they comment here. Even after Dr. J made a post about beautiful brown skinned women, and explicitly stated, "What I am about to say I need all of you to read very slowly and carefully…", in bold no less, a lot of women still got their Sista Souljah on, went off the deep end about hatred of his own blackness, and there's over 400 comments on the subject.

        We can't have preferences. Like light-skinned women? You hate yourself and disrespect your ancestors, even if you're a light-skinned black man yourself. Prefer straight hair over natural? You love white women and have been indoctrinated from our days on the plantation. A lot of women subject black men to this anti-paper bag test, and if we dare to say a woman who isn't a skinhead and black as asphalt is attractive, we're a sellout.

        I am really starting to think Adonis is right, and it is nothing but low self-esteem among these women. Some women here are even saying they need the affirmation of total strangers to verify their beauty and self worth. It's as if we don't find this woman as $exy as Lauren London, we have some racial identity issues.

        http://mystuffspace.com/graphic/homless-crackhead

        1. @GirlSixx

          agree

          Some may suffer from LSE from time to time but when we bring up the color issue it seems like some of these women have had a lifetime of LSE. But to put demons on/lass out/ or blame men who you don’t even know when they say they have a type or if they don’t call you beautiful is setting yourself up for another life time full of hurt. Not saying we should let ignorant preferences go without being checked.

          @Hugh Jazz

          It's definitely low self esteem, but unlike weight, hair texture or eye color you can change your skin. Some feel like the fight to feel beauty is a battle that will never be one. But I also think we shouldn’t put so much emphasis on weather a man finds my skin color beautiful or not even if that man is black. There’s always going to be people who don’t like you or find something wrong about you no matter how beautiful you are. Plus just because a man finds Lauren London beautiful doesn’t mean he doesn’t think Gabriel Union is just as good looking.

        2. @Hugh Jazz: "Some women here are even saying they need the affirmation of total strangers to verify their beauty and self worth."

          I never even looked at it that way.

          Mind….Blown….

        3. First off let me say, Bravo to WIM for this post! Your point is well taken and you were classy about it (referencing your threat of "feelings will be hurt." LoL) Kudos!

          One thing guys have to understand, is that @GirlSixx is absolutely right in saying women have LSE, or I'd use the word insecurities, because we're just human. Everyone has them. I'd dare say its more evident in women when beauty standards come into play, because we are judged more on looks than men are. Thats just a fact. Ugly rich men still win, while unattractive females don't get that pass.

          @Adonis U don't understand LSE when it comes to light skin vs dark skin issues? But didn't you write this a few weeks back? :

          “She as a dark skin black woman has a very little chance of securing a quality male commitment…”

          …#Oh

          @Hugh I think guys take it a little too far when saying "you're not allowed" to find a light skinned, or woman of another ethnicity beautiful without being labeled. I would hope no one would get mad at you for thinking Adriana Lima or Beyonce (yea I'm a stan lol) is beautiful. Cuz that right there is just another level of hate and delusion. But you do have a point when saying on some level low self-esteem plays into this issue. Maybe not necessarily on this blog, but in general I can't disagree that LSE doesnt effect some peoples' judgment when addressing this issue (although I think thats totaly understandable.)

          I think, @Smilez_920 couldn't be more on point with his whole comment. LOVE it!

          Its def a problem if the assumption is that a man who finds Lauren London beautiful automatically thinks Gabby is not. Not always true. I also agree that "ignorant preferences shouldn't go unchecked" though.

          Let's not pretend the height of ignorance, that truly believes lighter is better doesnt exist out there. As I stated Tuesday some of you *cough cough* follow it on Twitter… It is, however, unfortunate that people like Dr. J do get unjustly caught in the crossfire when their intentions are positive. At any rate I don't think that should discourage you guys from being honest and acknowledging all forms of beauty, for the diversity of its definition.

          *exits stage left playing "Brown Skin" on my guitar.*

        4. @Hugh

          Yes I remember the comments as well and although I didn't think the post was that deep/serious in regards to how people went IN ON the comments I wouldn't chalk it up to being due to LSE.

          JMO. *shrug*

        5. @Hugh @Girlsixx

          @MissMina Good catch Mina, I love it when a girl quotes me… I just have a feel of the L vs D swag…

          But I don't get why it is so deep, where you have Dark skin women to think they are inferior to the point where they have to have independent movies delving into the phenomenon…

          Also, women tend to be more misogynistic as a group, so I can imagine how women use skintones to hurt other women…

          Also, another thought on slavery… I had a revelation watching this special program about to become a more complete man… And, dude basically said in a nutshell, how scientist have been able to prove how a persons DNA changes from birth,

          Basically how you live your life & the habits CHANGES your DNA… and when you have children, you pass those genes on… So, when I heard that hot sh*t, the world made alot more sense…

          So now, when negroes talk about how slavery has affected us, my understanding of that is deeper…

          The problem comes when an individual uses slavery or any other excuse not to be a better human…

          SSTTE

        6. @MissMina

          "She as a dark skin black woman has a very little chance of securing a quality male commitment…"

          You took my comment out of context, you left out the single mom swag, which lower a woman's chances of getting married or snagging a quality man…

          I am also acknowledging that a significant portion of black men do have a preference for women with lighter skin…

          1. It is just a preference

          2. You can be the exception that proves the rule, like the preggo girl in Streetz article, especially if you are diamond among rubies…

          3. Dating History Vs. Preference Vs. Person Whom He Actually Marries… #RememberThat… That goes for both genders

          Point blank, looks matter, but not as much as you think… Even though we are visual creatures, you will be amazed how being a quality woman can influence a man to pick against his usuals…

          @Hugh Jazz Absolutely women have chronic LSE & they are on this blog… Because I assume that the women who reply to me with outrage in their hearts are the women who are guilty of the bad behaviors I rail on, on a daily… The faster you get over it, the faster life becomes a wonderful place

          A woman should never be offended on what type of woman I like to sleep with, or upset with me, because I abhor single motherhood or fatties… It is bad for my visuals, & bad for society…

          (Alot of women have yet to figure out, how a woman's high body count & sl*thood hurts their marriage prospects, so I give women a pass on that… Marriage is in the toilet, but has yet to have been FLUSHED…)

          SSTTE

    2. @Adonis I think you delved a little too deep here. In fact all your "points" directed at me pretty much had nothing to do with my point about you…

      I was merely offering you an example of what causes and or contributes to chronic low self esteem in women relative to this discussion, because you claimed you didnt get it. My sentiments were that statements like yours certainly can add to/perpetuate LSE. Whatever your intentions were, you implied that a darker skin tone provides an added disadvantage. If you don't understand how that can contribute to LSE well then…I guess I have no further words for you on that…

      Plus didn't you state that keeping a woman's self esteem low is beneficial anyway? To me a dude who needs a woman to have LSE to win is kind of a loser anyway…

      And why are you stressing preference to me? Have I stated any problem with guys having a preference? If so please, do quote me on it…

      *sigh* We seem to fundamentally disagree on pretty much everything. I shall keep hope alive though. And for kicks I won't even gloss over or ignore your future comments as apparently others have come to do…lol

      1. @MissMina

        In the name of getting Poon from the average woman, keep her SE low is a good thing… Call me a loser… But I am just playing by the rules women set for me…

        I just don't see the love of Dark Skin women they I see the love for light skin women… That is where I perceive the disadvantage for dark skin women, who will also might be a single mom…

        But personally, I feel it is more of a cute/ugly argument, than a DS/LS argument… Show me where pretty dark skin women are being passed up for ugly light skin women…

        Also, women are so focused on how much male attention the next woman is getting, instead of focusing on being a great wife to one man…

        But I have always argued, that most American (Black) women don't want to be married, just want a wedding…

  11. Great follow up post

    People shouldn’t be #Teamlightskin or #Teamdarkskin just #Teamblackisbeautiful. Thank You for also addressing a lot of the issues that suffer faced along the comment page yesterday.

    You cannot add using division

    Thank you. A lot of the times when we have the "Color Conversation" it's almost like if you compliment light skin that you have a color complex. We have to understand that Loving dark skin and realizing it is beautiful, doesn’t mean that we negate the beauty of light skin because it’s all black skin. I feel that the color issue runs so deep at times that when a women like Halle Berry is complimented it become “ O you only think she’s cute because she’s light” or you don’t think damn what about the Dark Skin sister’s. A man complimenting on one woman’s beauty doesn’t take away from the beauty of another.

    Each end of the fight needs to be more understanding

    While some people have a more “I love myself so F’ you if I’m not your preference” attitude or if “he doesn’t prefer me than screw him” many feel like they have been passed over or the beauty has been taken into full account because of their skin tone. With that being said even if you haven’t necessarily felt the negative effects or have let it affect your own beauty validation, some have. For those people who have you have to understand that you can’t let what others find beautiful, make you feel less than.

  12. I'm not american but I'm black so I never really understood the whole dark vs. light issue. I just don't get it. that's why I never comment (or sometimes bother to read)blogs where the topic is being discussed over and over again… it's sooo irrelevant…anyway what I really wanted to say was…WIM I love you

  13. I'm running late, so I'll say this one thing… for now.

    The European standard of beauty does effect everyone, including europeans, and people of color across the world. Do some research into the skin whitening in India, google eyelid surgery, a procedure becoming popular among many east Asians. You think white women get nose jobs because they want to look like they don't have a nose? Jennifer Grey? Have you seen Kim K's face? Tell me she didn't do that to herself to make herself look a little more Euro. Don't forget about the going blond, blue or green contacts, etc, etc. I say all of this to say, this color thing, these standards of beauty have a direct connection to European imperialism, and everyone's taken a hit. Its not just a USA thing, and its definitely not just a black woman thing. Unfortunately, black women are the least likely to be doted on, and put on a pedestal as beautiful. Strong, yes. Sexy, sure. But beautiful for just being, and for our assets? Happens behind closed doors, but not out in the open. All these years after Brown, there's a reason why children are still failing the doll test…

    1. I believe I've seen the Brown test you're referring to; however, I believe this illustrates the effect of media on society as @Hugh Jazz describes below. I don't disagree with you but I think it's the media who dictates a lot of these "standards" on everyone, which obviously includes black people. We can debate who the "runs" the media but I'm going to side step that conversation with reckless abandonment.

      1. I agree with you. The media is definitely part of it. But, a 5yr. old little boy is most likely getting his cues from the people around him, not the media. Parents, other adults in his family, teachers, etc.

        Yeah, no need to get into the "who runs the media" debate. Its not particulary necessary for this discussion.

        Great post, by the way.

  14. Maybe I'm the only female that feels this way, but I feel like we tend to bandy about the term "European Standard of Beauty" as a trump card, because as long as white people are the preeminent race, it retains some sense of validity. But, tell me, what standard is this , and where is it coming from?

    Have people been to Europe? Looks vary all across the continent – from the more olive-skinned Mediterannean look in Greece and nearby nations, to more Arabian look in the far eastern nations, to the naturally tan look of Spaniards. Various ethnicities generate different looks, meaning the this "European Standard" is no less unified than a black standard. The only region of Europe that is well-known for these so-called idealized traits are Scandinavia, which is a miniscule sliver of the continent live.

    By no means am I saying that the claim that we are not influenced by the media is invalid. But those are our own issues to resolve, not these "evil Europeans" that we apparently all ascribe to. I just feel like we've bastardized a term in order to be able to unilaterally place blame.

    However, I am by no means a sociologist – so feel free to refute and explain.

    1. I'm no sociologist either. I just wonder where the "European standard" is when white women are getting butt implants and risking melanoma to tan their skin on a weekly basis. IMO, people are chasing a media standard, not a white standard. Most white men I know don't care for the "white" look of the emaciated, boy-like stick figures that make up the modeling world, even if they still don't like thick legs and a big butt.

      I'm not saying the European standard doesn't exist, but it's not as serious as an issue as some people make it out to be.

      1. "I just wonder where the “European standard” is when white women are getting butt implants and risking melanoma to tan their skin on a weekly basis. IMO, people are chasing a media standard, not a white standard."

        Great point. I was thinking the same thing when people were going off about this subject on J's post the other day. I agree with you about people chasing a media standard.

        1. That line def changed my perspective a smidge, lol…and made me click that like button!!!!

        2. I cosign the co sign

          Ex: In the 90's having an average size / standard issue but was good enough, now with all these music videos, and king magazine and Obsessions with big botties you have to be able to sit a cup on your butt in order for it to be phat/sexy. This phenomena has some women going to cheap doctors and foreign countries getting as$ injections risking their lives.

  15. Also, this won't be nearly as contentious as Dr. J's post for the simple fact that the women readers here feel that you carry less 'baggage' when you talk about black women vs. when Dr. J does.

    1. Agreed.

      Woman, better yet people, respond better to those who think-first and strategically speak with less tenacity and blunt. My African friend that I hang with every now and then carefully chooses his words at all times when speaking to people outside of his circle (strangers, women, etc.), where as I have a tendency to speak what is on my mind with thought, but far less strategy. Next to him, i'm seen as the jerk/azz-hole and he's the good/nice guy. I like to cut through all of the BS, while he will tip-toe around what i'm actually thinking. Same goal, different angles.

      From reading blog postings and comments from WIM & Most, they are the calculated, think-first, strategy types.

      Dr. J, Streetz and SBM tend to think as their speaking mindset, which may come off a bit edgy, direct and insensitive.

      I dig both thinking styles and actually tend to respond using both styles. i don't think Dr. J, Streetz and SBM should be disproportionately negatively categorized due to their style. Dig deeper than the style and appreciate the content.

      "The things we think and do not say"

      1. you wouldn't eat a delicious T-bone steak if it was served on a trash can lid #cosby

        Presentation means a lot…

        *Note* Not knocking Dr J's post… Just responding to Top5's explanation of the different styles.

        1. @Kema i see what ur doing with that avi and i appreciate it.

          "Presentation means a lot…"

          But not everything.

          Depends on if the trash can lid is new or not. But I think there are wolves in sheep's clothing as well as sheep in wolves clothing.

          I'd rather take a delicious Rib Eye steak on a trash can lid than a terrible Rib Eye steak on a China plate.

          Don't miss the forest for the trees.

      2. I've never really heard my writing was perceived to be edgy, direct, and insensitive. I don't know if I agree with that all the way, but I see what you are saying.

        Don't assume that people aren't calculated when they write just because of style. There are many avenues to get to the same destination.

        Am I in my feelings? lol… thats a cool synopsis though, just caught me off guard my g!

        1. @Streetz

          I actually finished what i wrote and then deleted you out of that category because ur style is a style in and of itself. You are comical yet edgy, DIRECT, and kindly insensitive at times. Your blog posts don't really ruffle feathers, but your blog comments may. You tend to get a lil emotional in your comments and lose a bit of that calculated thought, which is why i added you back to the category.

          Trust me, i write in that style and i'm very calculated, but i have a tendency to just want to get my point across rather than worry about how it comes out at times, but it tends to lose a bit of it's charm.

        2. I wouldnt call your writing that either, and I've been reading your stuff for a long time. I would say your passion shows and you are very animated–you kind of type like you talk, maybe because I know you I can see your expressions when I read. I would say passionate, you use a lot of examples and you speak from the heart. but I also call you Mister PC so you def aren't insensitive. lol

      1. Well, in my experience, unless you're in an academic setting women best respond when to things men say based on how it's articulated more so than what is articulated. I would say the ratio is 3:1 (75% to 25%) as far as presentation versus content.

        1. Which is why it's soooo easy to sell women a dream … Ya are more concerned about the words that come out of a man's mouth than the action he takes. And the majority of guys out here know this and work under that practice. I, on the other hand, choose to tell women what's what and not carry on a facade that i cannot live up to (despite how good it sounds).

        2. @Top5DOA

          Which is why it’s soooo easy to sell women a dream … Ya are more concerned about the words that come out of a man’s mouth than the action he takes

          #MoneyPoint

      2. I don't think its really fair to write off those who choose their words carefully as "tip toeing around" though. It's somewhat of a survival mechanism. In life we really cannot always just blurt. Especially since words cannot be taken back. I agree its a slippery slope though, because some women do get too caught up on the "pretty packaging" so to speak. Regardless of one's method, this is a very interesting angle. The geek in me wants to assess the comments to see if one thought expressed in 2 different manners get a different amount of likes/dislikes…#Imachillthough.

        *sidebar So we all jus gon ignore Top's "Can I have a ride" comment huh? Kool. LOL.

        1. "In life we really cannot always just blurt"

          Of course … a think a good balance is best. A politically correct person or a "that sounds good" type of character irritates me a bit cuz it feels so manufactured and not genuine when used in excess.

          I've said a few things that were along with Adonis just from a different manner and I received more positive remarks than he did.

          By the way, she stepped into that "ride" comment.

  16. Hmm… I just wish people wouldn't be so quick to be upset that one person doesn't find them beautiful. I mean, everyone can't be beautiful, if everyone was, it would cease being a notable characteristic. I understand that due to the American standard of beauty, many black women feel like they're marginalized when to comes to beauty, but I think we really need to stop assigning our self-worth as women to physical attributes that we played no part in deriving for ourselves.

    Beautiful or not, there are a lot of things that I bring to this Earth that have the potential to affect more change and influence more lives than a pretty face could ever do. If a guy passes over me because I'm darker-skinned, yes he's a dummy, but not because of his skin preferences, but because I'm phenomenal, and he missed out. And I'm not saying this because I am an ugly person and I need to feel good about myself. I enjoy being pretty and the pretty people privileges that come with it, who wouldn't? But is being pretty what makes me a good daughter, sister, girlfriend, friend or is who I am as a person? Is being pretty going to help the patients I treat get better any faster or is it my intelligence? Is being pretty going to grant me greater opportunities in life or is it my Harvard degree? Keeping it perspective of everything else, beauty is nothing to really base my self worth on.

    I enjoy a nice compliment as much as the next woman, but is it going to make or break my world? Probably not.

    1. Two points that @Lady reminded me of…

      What is the standard of beauty for AA Black women…? Women are afraid to define it, and it hurts black women as a group… Let the best of you, represent you..

      And when I watch TV, I see no shortage of Afro-American fatties… We need more smart SMOKING HOT black women outside of a rap video…

    2. "Is being pretty going to grant me greater opportunities in life or is it my Harvard degree?"

      I agree with everything you posted there. The quote from your post I mentioned here I found to be an interesting question. I agree the Harvard degree will give any person a higher degree of probability of obtaining opportunities. However, as you mentioned above people do receive "pretty privileges" and sometimes having the right "look" grants people greater opportunities no matter what degree they have (i.e. Entertainment industry).

      I'll submit that the Harvard degree will grant one more opportunities and being pretty has the potential to grant, on a magnitude standpoint, greater opportunities, but not as many opportunities as a whole (looks fade, but that degree is forever). Obviously what is considered a great opportunity is debatable therefore a back and forth banter is basically pointless, but I liked what you said here and it brought up a different dynamic.

  17. "Specific to today’s topic though, I will never understand how a woman can claim to be pro-black then turn around and define what black is while leaving out whole swathes of the same race of women you claim to be defending. This doesn’t make sense."

    Regarding the light skint/dark skint war, I've been trying to summarize my frustration with the whole thing and it is THIS. It is mathematically, scientifically, anythingelseifically impossible to be pro-black yet resort to (and actively participate in) these "divide and conquer" tactics.

    1. "It is mathematically, scientifically, anythingelseifically impossible to be pro-black yet resort to (and actively participate in) these “divide and conquer” tactics."

      Love!

  18. I see what y'all do now. The way ya'll got this set up. Ya'll send Dr. J in earlier in the week and let him say something just anything and it'll come across as inflammatory and insulting and then ya'll post up something else up later in the week that smooths things over so you can retain your readership into the next week. Lol!

    Anyway, I like this post. Black women are beautiful. And they're lots of other great things too. Is it because I'm light skinned that I'll never understand the light skin vs dark skin thing? Or is it because I think skin tone has no bearing on a person's true beauty? Either way dark skinned women don't have a monopoly on problems. Light skinned women have problems too.

      1. Lol @ krystllyght. There is no huge conspiracy trust me, no Illuminati. You can ask any of the writers to vouch, I had a blog planned and drafted for this week but after seeing the comments on Tuesdays post, more so than the blog itself, I was motivated to write this blog. I've had these general ideas in my head for a long time but this seemed as good as time as any to express them.

        It is also clear to me due to the great comments I've read so far but haven't responded to because I'm mobile, I'm clearly not going to get any work today.

      1. I can imagine them all meeting up to rock, paper, scissors it out every week to see who will be the bad cop. Most stands behind his podium (it is my personal opinion that that man carries a podium with him everywhere he goes) while everybody else sits at the table and they all just go ham on J because he always picks rock.

  19. I need to cut and post this. I just had a convo the other day with some folks that do not believe that "black women are beautiful". He felt that once you go t a certain weight or if you were too dark then you were left out of that summation. I had to tell him he may not think she is attractive but trust someone does.

    Peace, Love and Chocolate,

    Tiffany

  20. I definitely agree that there is a major fallacy in the "european standard of beauty" because while some black women can be put on trial for their weaves and perms – our obsession with hair has NOTHING on skin tanning, azz, lip and breast injections and so on. That being said – our beauty may be desired and lusted after… but it still is not as often publicly celebrated as beautiful and that seems to be the issue.

    Concepts of beauty don't seem logical because they vary from person to person – not just culture to culture. There is, however, a common consensus as to what beautiful is, and that particular form of beauty is publicly displayed and celebrated in print, media, and other forms of entertainment. When you do not fit what is commonly portrayed as what is beautiful to the rest of the world you rely on those close to you to remind you that you are, indeed, beautiful.

    If our own black men tend to be more interested in the common concept of beauty – that level of rejection hurts, and even if that man isn't YOUR man… it can often be taken personally. Should black women (or larger women, or any other type that is not commonly publicly appreciated) be stronger than that.. sure. But a lot of women, especially those who grew up without a father, seek validation – because they are human. They want to be liked. They want to be beautiful – and they want to be told. All the time!

    1. If our own black men tend to be more interested in the common concept of beauty – that level of rejection hurts, and even if that man isn’t YOUR man… it can often be taken personally. Should black women (or larger women, or any other type that is not commonly publicly appreciated) be stronger than that.. sure. But a lot of women, especially those who grew up without a father, seek validation – because they are human. They want to be liked. They want to be beautiful – and they want to be told. All the time!

      Yes!!

      We have a lot of young women growing up without father’s in their house to constantly tell them they are beautiful. Your daddy is the first man in life that will pay you a compliment. I also think a lot of the mother's of these young women who don’t have father’s in their life suffer from not feeling beautiful (having a husband or even father in their life to remind them of their beauty). It's just a dangerous cycle of self hate.

    2. "If our own black men tend to be more interested in the common concept of beauty – that level of rejection hurts, and even if that man isn’t YOUR man… it can often be taken personally. Should black women (or larger women, or any other type that is not commonly publicly appreciated) be stronger than that.. sure. But a lot of women, especially those who grew up without a father, seek validation – because they are human. They want to be liked. They want to be beautiful – and they want to be told. All the time!"

      THIS!!!!!!!!!

    3. "If our own black men tend to be more interested in the common concept of beauty – that level of rejection hurts, and even if that man isn’t YOUR man… it can often be taken personally."

      So true. And, if you think about it, you realize that men can run into these "common concept" preference issues as well. If anyone remembers Malik's comments from yesterday, he pretty much said he's not what's commonly doted on by black women. Though I'm sure he's not crying into his pillow every night about it, I'm pretty sure that doesn't particularly feel good either…

    4. Like your comment. I was reading some where about how Snoop only started putting darker women in his videos because he saw how the media bias was affecting his daughter. Same thing for LL when his darker-skinned niece asked him why he didn't find girls like her pretty. Unfortunately, some men just won't get it until it hits close to home.

      Grew up with my father always present, but my a parents never emphasized looks. It was more like, ok you're pretty…and what else? Where's your report card? You active in church/community? Are you developing your skills/talents? I think its important, because once you teach girls to value that validation, they'll continue seeking it. Beauty fades, you have a lot of washed up former stunners who have no self-worth to speak of because they were focused on the wrong thing when they were young.

  21. "I will never understand how a woman can claim to be pro-black then turn around and define what black is while leaving out whole swathes of the same race of women you claim to be defending. This doesn’t make sense."

    cosign!!!

    "You cannot add using division. Defining what is black automatically discriminates against black people that do not meet your often made up and increasingly fluid standard. It would behoove black women (and the black community as a whole) to move away from this toxic mindset as quick as possible."

    Cosign again! Great post WIM 🙂

  22. I’m from the south, and been up north for a few years now. Where I was from, I worked in retail for quite sometime and anytime someone referred to me, when asked who helped them, they said the “bright skinned girl.” I guess I am lighter compared to someone dark, but I considered myself brown skinned. I always wondered who the hell they were talking about. After moving here, I remember being asked, once, if my skin tone was considered “light” where I come from, this coming from a man, who was “yellow”. I thought it was interesting that I was even being asked the question, but I was curious to know why. So I answered, yes. It was true. He went on this long explaination about dark skinned vs light skinned, the whole spill, and suddenly my "brown skin" wasn't light enough. I met another guy, also, “yellow” skinned, who told me he didn’t find “dark skinned girls” attractive because, “how can you tell they’re clean?,” literally his words. So this “complex” we have is not only from history, but from current day.

    It is refreshing to hear that “black women are beautiful,” since often time that’s not who you see in mainstream America, magazines, movies, TV, videos. Oh you might see the “light skinned, long-hair, light eyes”, but not all shades, shapes, short hair can be found, just speaking generally. Not only “light skinned black women are beautiful.” We’re all beautiful. So yes, we do need to hear that. Thank you for your post.

    It’s a Black Brown thang. Not quite the lighter side of thangs.

    I’m in between. You wouldn’t understand? Or would you?

    The blacker-the- berry….. the sweeter the juice. Lighter is righter, coffee is better with cream.

    But what if my Black is Brown? I like my berries sweet too And my black coffee

    With a little bit of cream. I’m black and I’m proud To be Black Brown,

    But why must I be tested, My skin can’t be less than The color of a brown paper bag

    Curly hair can’t be nappy, But it’s cool if I have a white pappy

    Cause then my hair might flow, And my skin my glow,

    Cause lighter is better, You might weather the storm in any weather,

    As long as you look better. Better to who? I was told my Black is beautiful.
    http://www.gspoetry.com/caramel-colored-honey-coa

  23. Nice post, WIM. I cheated & read it while I should be doing something else, so that's pretty much all I can afford to say.

    @African in America: Let me fill you in on a dirty little (not-so) secret: A lot of Africans actually dislike it when 5th+ generation black Americans self-identify as African, because they feel as though their only claim to (any) African culture & heritage is their skin colour. I'll admit that I personally felt weird when one of my friends was on that "we are all Africans" tip a couple of years ago. I have second generation friends from the Carribean who self-identify simply as "Canadian," and even though I understand that people hate the way their ancestors came to be on the continent, there's nothing wrong with being an American. Heck, many African kids wish they were. I was born on African soil, and yet there's a name for people like me who are not "Nigerian" enough. I'm only one step above a foreigner. Recognizing that you're of African descent is cool, but I think it odd for anyone who can't trace their heritage back to a specific country to claim to be African.

    @Malik: I like the new avatar.

      1. Yeah, this pic is making me side eye the comments you made yesterday, Malik (you know what I'm talkin 'bout), lol…

        I like the new avi too…

    1. Essentially I'm as American as apple pie and pre-steroidsbaseball. When i have the disposable income to do so, i will do a genealogy search out of mere curiousity but at the end of the day, My father, grandfather, great grandfather and great great grandfather were born on American soil. West indians have their own food, own music, own culture to identify with, and whether black americans embrace it or not we have our own. We have soul food, jazz and rock and roll before we got debo'ed. But then again between Worldstar and Maury, i see why people repping africa so hard *looks in closet for "Imported from Africa" t-shirt*

      1. Basically. Even my mother on occasion utters some comment that makes it sound as though black Americans don't have a culture of their own, but this is entirely false. The fact that it doesn't resemble village tradition of old doesn't make it any less real. People of Carribean descent fully embrace their culture and see no need to hold on too tightly to the title of "African". A lot of them actually look down on Africans, but that's a story for another day under the category of whythefudgecan'tblackpeoplejustgetthehellalong.

      2. OMG there's nothing in the world more upsetting than when people say Black Americans have "no culture!" We absolutely do, and it is offensive to imply otherwise!

        1. My boyfriends mother says this to me a lot when I visit. It's more implied actually. They're a Jamaican family and every time she wants to share something with me she goes 'come, let me give you some culture!' -_- I have yet to take actual offense to this, but alot of islanders feel that way.

  24. "its all black, i love US" -Hova

    I remember when i was younger, this black woman came up to me in the store and raved about how she loved my skin color and dont let anyone tell me otherwise (as a kid i was always playing outside all damn day so i was like superblack) i was weirded out by it then, but looking back, I see her point. Granted the dark skinned brothas get a lot more love but with the sistahs it dont seem as much. Hiding behind shades is more of an inferiority complex, the main chicks screaming teamlightskin or calling themselves red be unattractive #butshegotthatskintonetho.

    1. the main chicks screaming teamlightskin or calling themselves red be unattractive #butshegotthatskintonetho.

      < "cough" hoodrats

      Yea those women suffer from low self esteem; they really feel ugly so they try to put other girls down who they feel are competitions by using one asset (Skin tone, fat butt) to make the others feel insecure.

      It’s just like those girls that always screaming "I’m bad, I'm a bad [email protected]" always look like old Halloween mask's in the face. But they have big butts so now they "Bad".

      1. I died. resurrected. and died again…

        It's funny because it's so true. A Phat Azz does not a pretty face make but then again they always seem to get a pass. #HoodwinkedPhatAzzSwindle

        and this.. "always look like old Halloween mask's in the face." IJustCan'tWithUtoday.. bwahahahaaahaaa

  25. "Still, I will admit that one of the difficulties I had in writing the requested post was I couldn’t adequately segregate what I found beautiful about black women specifically. You see, I find women beautiful period".

    Oh. My. God. If this line were a song i'd put it on repeat.

    I'm probably 1 of 5 black women on this earth who appreciates what you said here. It's music to my ears.

    Excellent post.

  26. This may sound selfish but I only tend to internalize issues that directly effect me. Imo, I'm neither #teamlightskin or #teamdarkskin…I'm somewhere in between and exactly where depends on the season. My issues were (maybe even "are" deep down in my subconscious mind) that exaggerated features on the face are not commonly accepted as beautiful…of which, I have two (eyes and forehead)…I had bigger fish to fry so I wasn't losing sleep over my complexion, lol. Everyone wants to be considered beautiful/attractive/etc…whether they admit it or not.

    As others have said, I think the complex comes when you're constantly bombarded with pictures or words that define beauty in ways that do NOT look like you. I think media is the real culprit…and it's also disheartening that some refuse to admit that the media's subliminal messages have influenced our preferences (beauty, fashion, etc.).

    1. This may sound selfish but I only tend to internalize issues that directly effect me

      Please sit down. I don't know how to tell you this….it's going to be hard to hear. *deep breath* You have a condition. It's serious. There's no cure. It's very widespread. *fights back tears* You're…you're…Human *breaks down crying*. We're going to fight this together Cynical, don't go quietly into the night! There are things we can do, to try and offset some of the symptoms. It won't be easy, but damn it girl I will not let you quit! We are going to fight this thing!

      1. *breaks down crying* You…you understand me!? #awkwardblackgirl

        LMBO!!! But, I started feeling bad about why my feathers weren't ruffled by Dr. J's comments yesterday. Am I not concerned enough? Am I validated by his words in some way? Am I not pro-black enough?

        Then it hit me that A) several people have considered me light-skinned (though I disagree), B) I have long hair…locked, but long, and C) I'm not trying to bag Dr. J, lol. Therefore, I was pretty disassociated from anything that could've been perceived as negative about his post. So, it just was not serious for me in any way, lol…just a fun peak into his world. *shrugs*

        More importantly, I've been asked to escort men to places in public…in the daylight…been introduced to friends and relatives, lol…and I know the fellas care what other people think about their date. I've been shown that men aren't ashamed of the way I look. So, I'm just not in some dire need to hear about how beautiful I am…especially when I'm sitting at my desk in need of loc and eyebrow maintenance, lol. If a brotha told me I was beautiful today, I'd tell him he was lying cause I look a hot mess! LOL…

        1. "C) I’m not trying to bag Dr. J, lol."

          Girl…

          I was like "Damn… are all these women posting these angry comments Dr J's ex girlfriends or something???" lol!

          I mean… I get his delivery might have upset some people… but I kept thinking… Why are these women so upset about one guy that they will probably NEVER even meet saying that their type of beauty hasn't been his peference in the past???? Who cares? lol!

        2. "More importantly, I’ve been asked to escort men to places in public…in the daylight…been introduced to friends and relatives, lol…and I know the fellas care what other people think about their date. I’ve been shown that men aren’t ashamed of the way I look. So, I’m just not in some dire need to hear about how beautiful I am…especially when I’m sitting at my desk in need of loc and eyebrow maintenance, lol. If a brotha told me I was beautiful today, I’d tell him he was lying cause I look a hot mess! LOL…"

          Had to cosign this statement too…lol!

      2. !!!! I could not agree with you more!

        I think for me, too being neither dark or light and from a family that has various shades of the rainbow in shades, the color of our skin never was really a focus.

        Also, growing up most of my childhood in different countries, I missed America's media ideal of beauty. I was learning about Guamanian, Philipina, Japanese, Tongan, and various races and cultures that had varying levels of beauty. SO for me, I learned to find the beauty in everyone…

        Funny though, once back in the continental US, that perceptions and ideals of beauty slapped me in the face and was the darndest wakeup call to have in high school. I just.did.not. understand. Now? Well… to each their own, and I firmly believe beauty is in the eye of the beholder 🙂 Especially, as I fall outside the media's ideal of beauty as this brown skinned, natural, short haired, curvy woman…

  27. I feel you on this post WIM. I've never needed to be told that black is beautiful, I have eyes! I can see that black is beautiful. It's such a given to me. I was never made fun of for being dark-skinned. I got made fun of for being the teacher's pet, the smart girl, for dressing poorly (my middle school wardrobe was atrocious), and later in high school for being loud, obnoxious and a know it all. I've been surrounded by attractive black people of all shades all my life so I've never understood the whole light/dark division in our community. Debating an old slave mentality achieves nothing. We desperately need to grow past this issue because there are so many more important issues that the BC needs to tackle (unemployment, incarceration, the Black family, poverty, crime, drug use, education…just to name a few).

    1. " Debating an old slave mentality achieves nothing. We desperately need to grow past this issue because there are so many more important issues that the BC needs to tackle (unemployment, incarceration, the Black family, poverty, crime, drug use, education…just to name a few)."

      Wishing I could click that thumbs up button 100x more. *SendsUpAPrayer*

  28. *Wack post……The title is misleading, the post alone was pointless and redundant because people always say this about social issues in the black community….*TELL US SOMETHING WE DON'T KNOW!!!!! I'm mad I even took the time to read this f*ckery. ;( **EXITS**

    1. Yes, Point, tell us something we don't know… like how'd you get all that sand in your vag? It really must be rubbing you the wrong way. Honestly, why all the hostility on such a mild post? If there are issues in the Black community that aren't being addressed then by all means enlighten us. That's the point of a discussion forum isn't it? But to just outright blast on the writers without even addressing the topic is, well as you put it "pointless" which given your name is a little ironic, don't you think?

      1. Don't worry about my sand free vag. Not being hostile, just being honest….. I promise I would and could bring up all kinds of issues but I am afraid you'll just offend and piss more black people off like you did the other day. LOL hahahahaha 🙂 *Dueces*

        1. Not being hostile?!? I'm sorry but "Wack post……The title is misleading, the post alone was pointless and redundant… I’m mad I even took the time to read this f*ckery." doesn't exactly come off as very diplomatic.

          And who are these Black people I pissed off the other day? I have no idea what you're talking about right now.

      1. Ohhhh, I'm shaking in my boots….because you're going to trash my comment because you cannot handle the truth. You don't trash the disparaging, rude comments about black women. I'm done with this site anyway,this is my last time coming to ignorantsingleblackmale.gov smh

    2. I think it's sad that people don't know how to respectfully agree to disagree anymore. I think it's sad that people think its ok to say overtly hurtful things just because you can.

      There have been posts that weren't as engaging for me. And I just didn't comment that day…and let the people who enjoyed it, enjoy it without my commentary. But, then again, I can't expect everyone to do as I do…I can't assume everyone was raised like I was (to be mindful of how you say things).

      Everyone is free to be rude…but that doesn't make it right or ok.

      1. And, for the record…this isn't simply directed at POINT. This def reminds me of the e-Beef post from last week. Let somebody who don't know me like that just call my art some f*ckery to my face…or just tell me, a grown woman, to go sit down somewhere. You better pray I'm on my medication that day…

        Y'all be trippin…talkin all tough behind your PCs & Macs, LOL. Funny.

  29. Thank you for your Input Wisdom, I never needed someone to tell me i was beautiful my mother is a majestic, drop dead gorgeous divastic educated, certified bad chick, and she told me from the get go that we were all like that in the family, so i developed a complex of superiority really young, you can't tell me I'm not the shit, I'll laugh and switch my butt away from your blind self, I'm just terrified for my future kids, I just don't see these issues being resolved in my lifetime, i weep for them; my husband and i are contemplating packing and moving somewhere, away from this mess, I don't know about their futures, all i can do is try to teach them right and wrong and hope that they listen to me instead of some knucklehead in the street or a rapper; This is the reason why i got so upset in the last post; what if someone tell my daughter something like this? or tell her she is pretty for a dark skin girl? or any other incredibly ignorant statement coming from (wait for itttttttttttttt) our own people…
    I don't know, but thank you for your effort.

  30. I hate to interrupt all this pro-blackness, but at the end of the day we are still talking about looks. Looks. And a shallow topic deserves shallow answers some times. Women take the topics of looks to the level of seriousness as World Hunger or the National Debt. I hate when you are having a conversation about bu++s and someone brings up Sarah Bartmaan. Or during discussions about who chain was funnier, T-pain or Duval, someone wants to talk blood diamonds. We are acting like every girl getting a dime status is going to fix the black family.

    "When I say “black women are beautiful” I am describing all black women. All shapes, sizes, hairstyles and skin tones."

    This feels like PAL youth soccer where everyone gets a trophy. Everyone is beautiful? That isn't true. We don't tell men these lies? I aint Boris and no one is telling me I am. Why is it necessary to tell women these lies? Isn't the practice of "All ___ is beautiful" adding to the growing number of individuals with unrealistic self perception.

    People are different. I am not a bad guy for pointing that out. Light skin doesn't look the same. Skin is the largest organ in your body Source – Wikipedia. We can't just ignore that color. I think the idea is to appreciate all of them for what they are, not make them all the same. People can't control their skin color. However people also can't control their nose shape, bu++ size, or peen length. Yet we all fairly use those to pick a lover. At the end of the day, they are all shallow criteria. I just hate putting all the problems with having to do with our race on who I pick to hit on in the club.

    1. true..

      Listen I agree as grown up's we know some people are more facial challenged than others. But when you have a group of people saying you’re not beautiful (Not because you don’t have the looks, face body) but simply because you’re a little darker than the chick next to you, that when it becomes BS. Just like we shouldn’t assume a light skin chick is just getting play because of her complexion but because she’s sexy all around. Plus let remember no one what’s too be the ugly duckling, even cruella de vil like a compliment from time to time.

      As a man you have the right to have a preference just like a woman can say "I only date men with big Mandingo love sticks. "

      1. "but simply because you’re a little darker than the chick next to you, that when it becomes BS"

        I agree with you more than you can every understand. However, as some some who pretty much only hangs with people with a brain (SBM or RL), I find myself around people who are so against complextion prejudice they won't even allow me to express my love of the differences between the two. Its political correctness gone too far.

        Yesterday, I got disliked like a MFer. People said I need to stop looking at color and look only at features. That is a load of [email protected] Be serious. Women are like art, the color of a painting matters. All colors are beautiful but they are not the same. If you change the color of the Mona Lisa, its going to change the painting. When you are this level of obsessed with a woman's body, you can't expect me to ignore any part of her in your attempt to boast her self esteem.

    2. As quoted before, "the things we think and do not say" – Jerry Maguire

      Although, i'm thinking WIM is being very general in this post (strategically), while you're being very specific (case by case) … It's like me saying that I like the Indiana Pacers, I love the Pacers, but I don't like every player on the team and more than likely will only get a jersey of my favorite player. I understand and dig the importance of every position on the team (the all shapes, sizes and colors), but this is a bad time to nitpick on every individual player cuz i think we get that enough.

      1. But when we don't nitpick, Zan Tabak thinks he is Reggie Miller.

        Its a superstar league.

        And we are living in a TV world. Too many Jeff Foster raising their hands thinking they are dimes.

        1. And i don't disagree with your statement at ALL … its just that there is a time and place for that statement and in the framework of today's subject it was a bit out of place.

          Your comment goes in the "All ya aren't dimes" blog post … Prolly hasn't been made on here yet tho.

    3. Cheekz, werent you and I agreeing that a girl with a nice body could still get play even if she's not that tight in the face? I believe we did, sir. Anyway, I say that to say there are very few TRULY all around ugly people. I mean where there isnt a single thing you cant find attractive about them – and this is coming from a highly superficial man. Beauty, like most things, runs along an undefined scale. Just because a girl isnt top tier doesnt make her ugly. Just because a girl is ugly in the face, doesnt mean I cant work with it or find something attractive about her. I'm not saying you have to marry every woman in the world, b. But if you are unable to recognize there is some form of beauty in 9.9 out of 10 women, real talk, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with you.

      1. WIS. 9.9 is very high. But you lowered the standard so low to "some form of beauty." Which means even Precious, who has nice feet, gets a pass. That bar is set too low, imho, considering the self centered times we are in. And this is coming from a man with low standards.

        But see here is what I am salty about my dude. If me and you have a convo about knocking off Buttaheads, its just a conversation about scratching an itch. Its lighthearted and fun. Its not a global epidemic. There isn't going to be an ugly people genocide According to the hate I get I would be the first one to die at hotel rwanda. This feels like too much to me.

        1. "Which means even Precious, who has nice feet, gets a pass."

          To the guy that has a foot fetish this may make precious better looking than Bey (who complained about her feet). lol!

    4. @Cheekz I feel like maybe I should take offense to your comment, but I'm too busy cracking up!!! This is soooo hilarious and so true! Sarah *Baartman and Blood Diamonds, really do make their way into the most light-hearted of convos! And as for unrealistic self-perception, look No Further than Twitter! @TheBaddestChick and @MostBeautifulGurl and that of the like are usually the main culprits…

      @Top The Pacers?! My condolensces…lol

    5. I kinda agree with Cheeks. This is everyone is special/beautiful rhetoric, is a lie. Darwinism is real, survival of the fittest, everyone is NOT going to be good at something. You're going to have your losers, your uglies, your fatties, your shorties, that's just life.

      It sets a kid up for cognitive dissonance when you tell her everyone is beautiful and so are you, and then send them out into a world where pretty people privileges exist.

  31. Good post. I don't agree with everything stated but OK.

    I'm not gonna go in on the post. Just the comments.

    Let's stop the BS on Black women who complain about the color issues suffer from low self esteem and self hate, or they didn't have a Daddy who told them they were pretty. Or dark skin black women hate light skin black women or vice versa. Please. I have to yet to meet a Black woman who didn't want to be friends with another Black women JUST because she was light skin or dark skin.

    Guess what? Dark skin Black women has light skin MOTHERS, light skin SISTERS, light skin COUSINS, and light skin FRIENDS. Once in a while they even give birth to light skin babies :-). These are women whom they LOVE, CHERISH and ADMIRE. These women are BLACK. They are not trying to disown those women. Vice versa for light skin women when it comes to their dark skin family and friends.

    What Black women are complaining about is the system and culture in place. A system where dark skin girls prefer light skin dolls, and equate dark skin with "being bad" and light skin "being good", and that value has nothing to do with their Fathers being in their lives or not.

    A system where Dark skin women receive LONGER prison sentences than light skin women who commit the same crimes.
    http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/07/05/study-confi

    See, Black men LOVE to discuss the system and cultural values and practices that puts them at a disadvantage. And women are suppose to lovingly agree and support them.

    But when Black women talk about their issues with the system, its rarely acknowledged. Particularly when it certain aspects that Black men SUPPORT because it is to THEIR advantage even when its to Black women's detriment. Which dark skin being masculine, light skin is feminine and the beauty standard in place. Because in the end it's not JUST about being attractive. Its about the definition of WOMANHOOD that excludes Black women. And one who is considered LESS of a woman is one is not VALUED as woman and will be treated as such.

    Which is one of the main reasons for HIGH rates of domestic violence, sexual abuse, harassment, and physical VIOLENCE Black women face every day.

    to be contd…

    1. @Mabyl

      I clicked on the link. Like most studies they didn’t state which crime where committed where they comparing the time of a dark skin women who committed higher charge crime to a light skin women who committed a crime not on the same level. Did they look at their income levels, past histories and legal representations when they made these statistics? It’s like saying why do murders get more time in jail than men who don’t pay their child support.

      If you don’t think self esteem plays a role in a young girl picking a lighter doll over one that looks like her, then you have a lot to learn 9uyes social stigma's and influences play a part but how you feel about your self seals the deal). Were not saying all of these things surface from low self esteem but you can’t tell me it doesn’t play a factor. How you feel about your self will ultimately affects how others view you and what treatment you will allow from others and how you will let other’s view of you effect you in a negative or positive way.

      As far as daddy issue, no one is using it as an escape goat for black men, where saying from many comment even yours that part of this light skin –dark skin complex amongst women lie heavily on what they think men perceive as beautiful. If that wasn’t the case we wouldn’t be arguing about the preferences men have for light or dark. The daddy thing came up because that is the first version of a man that a young girl loves, so if he’s calling her smart and beautiful he’s helping her build a positive image of herself.

      1. Lighter Skin Reduces Prison Time Among Black Women

        A recent study, “The Impact of Light Skin on Prison Time for Black Female Offenders,” by Jill Viglione, Lance Hannon, and Robert DeFina of Villanova University assesses how perceived skin tone is related to the maximum prison sentence and time served for a sample of over 12,158 black women imprisoned in North Carolina between 1995 and 2009. The authors controlled for factors such as prior record, conviction date, prison misconduct, and being thin, as well as whether the woman was convicted of homicide or robbery since these crimes usually carry lengthy prison sentences. With regard to prison sentences, their results indicated that women deemed to have light skin are sentenced to approximately 12% less time behind bars than their darker skinned counterparts. The results also show that having light skin reduces the actual time served by approximately 11%.
        http://www.sentencingproject.org/detail/news.cfm?…

        Just had to click further in….

        Low self esteem is a "result." It doesn't come from thin air. But when people throw that term around, its as its it exists in a vacuum.

        You are right about Daddy's influence on a young (even I, the labeled Evil Black woman has one) but it doesn't completely negate outside influences.

      2. BTW,

        I didn't click the dislike button on your post, Just thought I'd point that out 🙂

        Someone else out there not thrilled with you wrote…

        1. @Mabyl

          I dont know if you noticed but like your self I dont care weather people are thrilled or not.. they have a right to dislike and like it's all good.. this is how we have a debate if we if we all agreed then their would'nt be an issue…

          But one question how did they define light and dark, I only ask because, Im sure you've seen people who describe nia long as light while some might see her as dark (Where is the cute off line)

        2. I was planning not post anymore on this blog for the day, but you've been cool in our exchange:

          Nia is not light skin. She is a brown skinned woman, I saw her publicly too, but even on TV she does not appear light skin. maybe a lighter shade of brown, but definitely brown.

          There is no cut off line, as hard as we try Our shades blend into each other. And from one end of the spectrum to the other, all are beautiful.

    2. @Mabyl I'm not going to disagree with anything you wrote. It would be an act in futility. All I really wanted to point out is that you are identifying issues as if they only apply to black women eg issues you can identify with. You are not the only one guilty of this (so are black men. In fact, so is everyone). It is how a lot of people form their so-called objective opinions. To outside parties this is generally seen as:

      "O woe is me, this happens to me and me alone, no one else deals with difficulties in life except me. Therefore, no one can relate because all my problems are greater and more difficult than their problems."

      As a result, what is there to debate? There is no common ground to be found here. It seems you are trying to prove why your issues (black womens) are greater than mine and everyone elses – if I understand correctly. So while you made valid points, I am: 1) not sure they ONLY apply to black women and 2) even if they do, all you've essentially informed me that "life sucks."

      But I knew that already…

      1. I never said Black women's issues are greater. Or just life sucks…

        But if YOU want to interpret it that way, OK. I guess my typing is also an exercise in futility.

        Hopefully not everyone will see what I wrote that way, and ultimately, young woman will see that however they feel about this topic they have a right to feel the way they feel and no one should DISMISS or invalidate their feelings.

        But your post is complimenting to black women, unlike Tuesday's post. I won't argue further.

    3. I mean, I think Mabyl has a legit point. People do like to twist people's words around here. I've definitely felt that way. Someone states that society has a problem with colorism and people start talking about about "bitches with low self esteem". I state that there's an achievement gap between black men and black women and all of a sudden Ia bird who hangs out with ain't isht niggas. I mean really? Rather than resort to personal attacks and make assumptions about the people who are making these statements, why don't you refute them with real facts? I feel like there is a prevailing culture here and if someone chooses to go against the grain, whether they do so in an intelligent fashion or not, they get shot down.

      Its really weird.

      1. Someone states that society has a problem with colorism and people start talking about about “bitches with low self esteem”.

        People motioned low self-esteem because it adds fuel to the fire, it keeps the cycle of colorism going when you have one group who not only feel they are discriminated against because of their skin but because of this ultimately don’t feel good about themselves. Yes how some of these women feel about their skin color keeps colorism alive (Dark sin women telling her dark skin son “don’t bring no dark girls around here or your babies will be too black, Light skin girl thinking her skin tone is better that the other dark skin women in her family. Wille Lynch created light vs dark Negro to not only mess with the mentality of his slaves but to make them feel low about themselves. We just want women to know that the first step in fight colorism is loving the skin you’re in feeling proud of it weather the media, or man loves it or not. While some women love their dark skin a lot of women don’t, as we can see by some of the examples given throughout the thread.

        (As far as going against the going against the grain, I think it’s the attitude you do it with along with how you do it)

      2. For the record,

        You didn't merely point out the achievement gap between black men and black women. If you had done that, then I'm sure that could have started an interesting conversation. What you said was that a significant amount of black men ain't sh*t. Which honestly, I think is offensive to say on a blog that's both written by black men and read by a lot of black men who seem to have their sh*t together.

    4. Guess what? Dark skin Black women has light skin MOTHERS, light skin SISTERS, light skin COUSINS, and light skin FRIENDS. Once in a while they even give birth to light skin babies . These are women whom they LOVE, CHERISH and ADMIRE. These women are BLACK. They are not trying to disown those women. Vice versa for light skin women when it comes to their dark skin family and friends.

      I call BS here. This is like saying there aren't men who hate women b/c they have mothers, sisters and wives. Misogyny is real. Likewise, women will openly dislike another woman for ANY reason. She doesn't even have to had any type of contact with the person. C'mon… Any reason includes skin color… There exists black women who discriminate against others of different skin tones. Say it with me now… yes, JUST skin tone. Like when I was walking past this upset lady on the phone and heard her say: "This is why I don't mess with light skinned chicks." That may or may not mean that she hates light skinned women. It could mean that she had an experience where someone who was light skinned betrayed her. And therefore, she had aversion to those who resemble that person in terms of looks and/or personality traits. I don't know b/c I didn't ask her. I digress…

      Which dark skin being masculine, light skin is feminine and the beauty standard in place. Because in the end it’s not JUST about being attractive. Its about the definition of WOMANHOOD that excludes Black women. And one who is considered LESS of a woman is one is not VALUED as woman and will be treated as such.

      You know… This may ruffle your feathers (and others), but this "standard of beauty" stuff is a rouse. Black people are buying into the idea that looking like the "standard" grants them social capital. The thing is that the social capital gained (through some sane means) is spent on attention rather than better treatment (for us all). Namely, women change their looks to align themselves along the standard in order to gain the attention they feel they want/desire/deserve. I don't see how more attention leads to better treatment. And that's the logical jump in this whole mess. You even said that looks determine ones womanhood… For you?!?! You are speaking for yourself I assume. YOUR definition of womanhood is your creation. The treatment of you as a woman is NOT a factor of YOUR definition of womanhood, but a condition of societal prejudices. Prejudices that down need "beauty" to be acted upon (more like "different" actually). It is internalized by women as "beauty" and allowing looks to define their womanhood. That's like me using my shoes to define my manhood… Especially when time and time again black men say: you're beautiful just the way you are. And a bunch of YOUR'S will give you an YOURS which is a part of US, so how does any the media depiction of beauty sway OUR definitions of womanhood? I don't care how many flat-b00ties they show on TV, my idea of woman is a whole 'nother metric from that. So how many pictures of women with blond hair does it take for YOU to decide to dye you hair blond to feel pretty? How many does it take to make YOU feel like you'll have more social capital for better treatment?

  32. I should say "many Black women face every day."

    So when a Black women points this out to Black men, she is not only dismissed but DENIGRATED. Hence all the talk on "low self esteem," or "you just suffer from self-hate," or "you have Daddy issues."

    All because you try to hold brothas accountable for upholding and supporting a cultural value that is not only DETRIMENTAL to Black women, but to the Black community OVERALL, because Black women are MOTHERS, and when they suffer, everyone suffers.

    But this lack of compassion and inability to understand and relate to how a woman feels is not exclusive to Black men. Its a general MALE trait. I guess we just think that MAYBE Black men would be more conscious since they too suffer from the same system that hurts us all. Well, I guess not.

    One more thing,

    Why can Adonis say VILE disgusting things about Black women here and he receives a little slap on the wrist, (and a wink from the brothas) with some brothas saying, Oh Adonis, I don't necessarily agree…" or some soft sh*t like that. But when I express my opinions," Oh, I'm disturbing the peace, turning the blog in on its ear and attacking people?"

    Yeah some of you sistas do this too. 🙂 then again, Chris Brown one all those BET awards…

    1. "Why can Adonis say VILE disgusting things about Black women here and he receives a little slap on the wrist, (and a wink from the brothas) with some brothas saying, Oh Adonis, I don’t necessarily agree…” or some soft sh*t like that. But when I express my opinions,” Oh, I’m disturbing the peace, turning the blog in on its ear and attacking people? Yeah some of you sistas do this too. then again, Chris Brown one all those BET awards…”

      Hmmm… I don't know how long you've been reading the blog, but Adonis used to get ganged up on ALL the time. People (both men AND women) still react negatively some of the things that he says, however, I think that at this point, everyone is used to his delivery style, so most of the readers either gloss over or completely ignore his comments. Which… is sad, because sometimes he has some really interesting things to say… but it gets hidden in all the "extra-ness" of his posts…lol.

      A lot of readers don't want to read what he writes because of some of the (as you say) "VILE, disgusting things about black women" that he writes. I'm not sure if he's someone that you want really to aspire to be compared to….lol. I'm sure that if you keep posting comments like you did the other day, eventually everyone would get around to glossing over and ignoring your comments too…

      Honestly, you did come off as really hostile to me. All that negativity was hard to digest, and I couldn't bring myself to read through the rest of your comments.

      And… there is nothing wrong with someone saying some "soft ish" like "I disagree…". I mean… what do you want them to do??? They said they disagreed! If you want to have as much freedom to "disturb the peace" as you feel Adonis does… then why can't someone have the freedom to peacefully disagree?

      1. I wasn't trying to be hostile, I wanted to make the conversation go "deeper" than it usually goes, mostly because I saw some of my younger cousins and colleagues reading this, taking in all these thoughts from a Black man as they struggle with their issues, and honestly for young Black women I don't think some of things posted here are that positive for them.

        It's all about putting things into perspective. I can when I read this, but if they read to find out how young black men think and take what is said here literally (which I think some do), I have issues with it.

        As for Adonis, women come down on him, but I still stand by what I said that men don't. But thats a whole other topic to touch on.

      2. "I’m sure that if you keep posting comments like you did the other day, eventually everyone would get around to glossing over and ignoring your comments too…"

        OUCH! LMBO!

        Personally, I'm not on SBM trying to save the world of ignorant thinkers…and I'm at work till 6pm usually, lol. I don't have the time or energy to go on epic rants about why somebody is wrong. I'll shoot off something here or there…but, typically, I don't join in. People can think whatever they want, lol. I know how to respectfully agree to disagree. If that's considered soft, I'll be that, lol.

        1. I actually missed that quote you quoted the first time around…that's funny.

          And… "Personally, I’m not on SBM trying to save the world of ignorant thinkers…and I’m at work till 6pm usually, lol. I don’t have the time or energy to go on epic rants about why somebody is wrong. I’ll shoot off something here or there…but, typically, I don’t join in. People can think whatever they want, lol. I know how to respectfully agree to disagree. If that’s considered soft, I’ll be that, lol."

          This woman gets it.

          I'm only commenting more today because this is my post. I'm really not even on other blogs like that except here and there and when I have free time or someone specifically writes me on some "yoooo peep this [link]." Like you said earlier, maybe I'm selfish too, because I'm really not all that interested in what people have to say unless I have a vested interest myself or they're paying me.

    2. @Mabyl: "Why can Adonis say VILE disgusting things about Black women here and he receives a little slap on the wrist."

      I'm not ignorining the rest of your comment, I just dont have anything to say about that (see above). I would, however, like to speak on Adonis because he comes up all the damn time. With good reason, I guess. I'm sure he'll voice his own opinion eventually – and what I'm about to say is no shots at him but he can take it however he wants.

      Personally, I generally dont say anything to Adonis (or anyone like him on the Internet and beyond) for a rew reasons:

      1) Adonis is a grown @ss man. He is entitled to his opinions, right, wrong or indifferent.

      2) Honestly, I dont care what Adonis or anyone has to say. While I may take his and other's opinions into consideration, I am confident enough in my own thoughts, abilities and opinions that I dont need someone – let alone a stranger on the Internet – to validate me.

      At the end of the day, who cares what Adonis – this Internet stranger – has to say. Frankly, yall left Adonis have too much control over your emotions. lol In my opinion, you gotta chill.

      3) Last one. This is the thing about men that tends to differ from women in arguments. Like I said, there are few times I outright agree with something Adonis has said BUT I respect what he said because he rarely shys away from his opinion. Nor do I try to change his opinion. I dont have the energy and really dont care enough to invest that type of energy.

      Whereas, I've seen blogs where Adonis was essentially attacked for the MAJORITY of the comments but dude didnt back down. Not gonna lie, I respect that. What I DONT respect is people who state an opinion, then run away from it like it's a burning building the second someone challenges them. Adonis hasnt been anything if he hasnt been consistent. Now some of his rhetoric is off the wall but at least he's consistently off the wall.

      Crazy idea though, if you (or anyone) dont like Adonis (or anyone) ignore them. Crazy idea, I know.

      – FIN –

    3. Ok @Mabyl. In order…

      So when a Black women points this out to Black men, she is not only dismissed but DENIGRATED. Hence all the talk on “low self esteem,” or “you just suffer from self-hate,” or “you have Daddy issues.”

      This is half the truth. There's a parental problem in our community. Don't you think that if it affects the adult lives of male children, then there's some chance that it could contribute to issues with female children as well? And those children grow up to be adults… The other half is the systematic 'sweeping it under the rug' approach to issues negatively affecting (black) women. This exists and is alive. Both halves play a role in every life and how much each sides contributes in specific to the individual.

      But this lack of compassion and inability to understand and relate to how a woman feels is not exclusive to Black men. Its a general MALE trait. I guess we just think that MAYBE Black men would be more conscious since they too suffer from the same system that hurts us all. Well, I guess not.

      ok…. So what now? Attributing "inability to understand and relate to how a woman feels" to being a trait that's innate to having a male gender is, to me, basically crying and dyin… Instead, how about attributing such discontinuities to the mechanics of the community and focus on ironing out the issues? Why? Well, like you said it does negatively affect our community and improvement can't be totally impossible otherwise we would've died off a while ago. The first part of the above quote is the SAME reason some women get offended when men attempt to verbally speak how you're alluding in the second part of the above quote. So in one breath, men can't say a word or be involved in a discussion concerning the well-being of black women. Then in another breath here you go saying we should open up our mouths (and act on it) in order to show compassion and such the well-being of women affects the community. Both being screamed into an ear. We only have two you know. Keep this in mind "for a few ticks"…

      1. @Mabyl

        So when a Black women points this out to Black men, she is not only dismissed but DENIGRATED. Hence all the talk on “low self esteem,” or “you just suffer from self-hate,” or “you have Daddy issues.”

        Just because a man says something about your feelings that you don’t agree with doesn’t mean their demising your feelings as a whole. It's just like if a little boy falls on the play ground and scrapes his knee his mother is likely to go over; give him a hug, make a fuss and tell him it will be all good. Now if the same scenario happened and his dad was their he would go over check if he's ok, tell him to get up and get over it, but he wouldn’t cuddle him and baby him. Just because we respond in different ways (men and women) with showing compassion doesn’t mean it's not being shown.

        1. "because we respond in different ways (men and women)"

          I wasnt with you until your example… I think thats the cause of about 76.32% of the disagreements on these sites.

        2. @Smilez, no people definitely do get denigrated, but it goes on both sides. I just think people need to rise about the personal attacks. Like the first insult everyone wants to throw at someone is low self-esteem, poor reading skills, bitter, angry, etc. I mean…. how would you know that? You don't know this person.

        3. @Lady

          I def see where your coming from. Someone doesn’t agree with you so instead of making an intelligent case some just jump to insults. But let's not act like those insults stated above don’t play apart in fact. Because we all know it's hard to have a real debate with angry, bitter people.

      2. @MeteorMan

        Money with this quote

        The first part of the above quote is the SAME reason some women get offended when men attempt to verbally speak how you’re alluding in the second part of the above quote. So in one breath, men can’t say a word or be involved in a discussion concerning the well-being of black women. Then in another breath here you go saying we should open up our mouths (and act on it) in order to show compassion and such the well-being of women affects the community.

        To shorten it up… I am supposed to see black women as victims & can't hold them responsible for some <DEL> alot </DEL> of the detriments of the black community…

        More on this later

    4. @Mabyl… You didn't even get attacked like that…

      You have a hard head, but a soft behind…

      Thanks for the links tho… I knew you was going to deliver for me… Passion does that to a person…

  33. I thought i'd have something to say today, sadly i'm out of words, it's been a rough week. On Tuesday, I was ready to put it out there on this topic. I think WIM covered it well here though.

    I won't go as far to say that I speak while I think. I actually think a lot before I write. Behind the scenes i'm working with some of your favorite bloggers to produce their pieces. They can tell you, oh Jay actually knew exactly what he was doing. That's why I hate when people misquote me and say, Jay said, when Jay didn't say that. Jay said what he meant, I chose my words wisely.

    Did you peep game that the quote from the curse was by Celie in the Color Purple? Think about that for a second.

    Did you peep game that the compliment Will made to that sister in school about walking through his mind all day was about a dark skin sister who walked by him? Think about that for a second.

    Did you peep that I never even said I didn't find brown skin women attractive,I talked about hair. But people read what they wanted. Think about that for a second.

    The title was a play on words from the Pirates of the Caribbean movie, The Curse of the Black Pearl. The curse was on me. It's almost the same as if you say, "I hope my boss don't be in the parking lot when I get there today with my behind 45 minutes late for work." Then you see your boss when you park your car! That's a curse, but you not saying you hate your boss, it's just the irony of seeing it over and over again.

    I feel like AI, it really ain't about that. Listen man, if I can't practice, I can't practice.

    You ever watch one of those episodes of Law & Order and the person is on the stands allocuting to the murder and they start explaining how they had more going on in their head than their victim did? People see what they want to see when anger is in their heart.

    That's how compliments go though.

    Read Denzel's acceptance speech at the Academy's:
    http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/denzelwa

    Read Halle's:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/entertainment

    Denzel was modest, he acknowledged Sidney who also won an award that night. Halle's first response was to talk about all the negativity in the Oscars leading up to that point. For Pete's sake, Halle, they just gave you the award, be happy before you start crying! It surprises me sometimes how you can tell a woman she looks nice today and she responds, "Are you saying I look busted the other days?" Look, I won't be paying you anymore compliments, it costs me nothing to pay you no mind.

    Ima end with this right here, it's two dudes at happy hour today looking out at the take:

    Dizza: Yo, she looking alright tonight. Ain't that that chick you was chilling with the other day at Josephine?

    Jay: Told you son, somebody should holla.

    Dizza: You not saying hi?

    Jay: Nope.

    Dizza: Why not?

    Jay: Because she BBM'ed me the other day and I was at work so I ain't respond. She got all pissed at me over that. I would go over there and pay her a compliment, but I ain't trying to hear all that mouth that come with it.

    Case in point.

    1. You seem to get offended at what was superficially perceived from your posts.

      I will say this Dr. J.

      I was introduced to this blog series about 6 months ago, and it was music to my ears. I've been living out of the country, first to teach in Korea and now for med school, for about 4 years, therefore, I needed something to continue the connection to Black America the Beautiful.

      I lurk much, but post comments rarely. However, it's very interesting to start to place pieces of the puzzle on the different personalities and character traits of not only the writers but the frequent commenters.

      Just as nature would have it, I started having favorite writers and commenters.

      Of course the e-world is as one dimensional as you make it, but I'll say that it's actually easier to understand someone from their e-thoughts than an everyday colleague, for these convos are not everyday convos, and our opinions on them reveal alot about ourselves. It's very therapeutic.

      Anyways, I digress:

      From the beginning of this blog discovery, I've been reading ur posts, but it's really your comments that gave me a small window of understanding.

      This understanding I'm sure, was not lost on other readers as well.

      Tuesday's post was not the first time you've made claim to a preference for a specific skin tone/race/hair length, that not only do u not share, but im sure your mother doesn't share either.

      There's nothing wrong with that. But in the same breath, you explicitly or implicitly claim that the opposite of that (the look you actually share) is not ur cup of tea. There is something wrong with that.

      As Mabyl tried to say: Nature dictates that you will be attracted to what you or ur mommy/daddy/family looks like. They are ur first introduction to human beauty. Being attracted to anything that is not that is perfectly normal due to globalization!! However, NOT being attracted to what you look like shows a deeper, usually unrecognized ingrained issue.

      Im not a doctor yet, so this is definitely not law…just a theory…and one that I've seen time and again.

      People remember ur previous comments and determined that u had some issues based on a accumulation of thoughts, rather than from one blog post. And I will agree. Ur preference doesn't affect my life directly, however, it does bother me that you are walking around thinking these women are upset because you weren't attracted to brown-skin girls with short hair. They are mad because you are oblivious to your subconscious thought. One day, the light bulb will illuminate and catharsis will ensue… and you will understand my point.

      Before that day comes, this comment will just be viewed as one made by an overly-sensitive black chick. C'est la vie.

        1. What about those posts? I didn't discuss a preference. One of those posts was about why men who are obsessed with Latinas are sadly mistaken in a lot of ways. And in the comments I just defended that position. The other posts was about how Black women are towards Latinas. So… what that have to do with my preference? Or was it just the subject matter? Because those are 2 posts out of the 100+ i've written here. Kema please, show me where I singled out a preference. Not where y'all got your panties in a bunch. I'm seriously, trying to figure out where the pigeonhole came from.

      1. It may not have been stated as a preference… but I thinking those posts may have led your female readers to think you did.

        I'm really not talking about your reality cause I dont know what that is… just the perception

        1. because they read into me dispelling myths as me selecting a preference or seeing into my head?

          Problem is, if you go read those posts you'll see I said, that black men who are obsessed with latinas are dumb, and racist people are racist against anyone not just latinas … and that most times when a black woman is upset with a latina, they should be more upset at the men who flock to them so hard… but nobody read all that did they?

          This is exactly my point and the reason, why i'm not going here today… i'm out.

        2. "and the most times when a black woman is upset with a latina, they should be more upset at the men who flock to them so hard…"

          Hmm…you set your bait.

          Again, I explicitly stated that I was not talking about your posts but your comments. What is unsaid in them is clear as day to anyone who is psychologically inclined.

          Im not going to do a search, however, reading dozens upon dozens of your comments, the message between the lines of: i date light skin, long hair, latina…etc…and black women are so hard to deal with…what conclusion do you expect us to come up with?

          Just because you never said: i don't like brown girls…your claim to only date light/latina girls confirms the former.

          Only you can be honest with yourself. It benefits no one on this blog one way or the other, but it would benefit you much to see what we're seeing.

          And yes, I will emphatically say this: I do very much so believe that your e-character has developed beaucoup since the last six months I've read your written work. Yours so more than any other writer.

          So, I do apologize for only pointing the negative. I have a feeling that these days, there is alot of introspection going on in thy life…and I'm such a proponent of "better thyself", that that makes my heart smile. Of course, what we find within will not always be pleasant.

          But the hardest part is out of the way.

          Im not trying to diagnose you or act as if I know you at all…but Im just making an observation.

          Thank you for making yourself transparent, with an avi to match, to the rest of the world. That is the hardest thing. Im sorry that the results of such transparency are not always positive, but I promise you, between the thoughts and feelings and convos we share as a result, we are all benefiting! So thank you!

        3. I realized that I've been reading much longer than six months. How can I forget? Time warps when ur in med school…

          I've definitely been a fan for over a year!! I wish it were longer…

        4. Nah but what i'm saying is even in my comments. There's nobody on this blog who reads and analyzes comments more than me. I tell you guys all the time, I read every comment on this site. I can profile each and every reader, even myself. You won't find that in my comments, you are seeing something that is not there. Then you say, "I won't do a search."

          Then I would kindly and respectfully ask that you rescind your earlier commentary and strike it from the record. You can't shout out sh*t like it's a fact but then not want to prove it's a fact.

          That's like me saying, "I don't like Teflon because she called me a n*gger on the set of Jungle Fever." Followed by, '"I'm not doing a search, i'm just saying that's what she said in the past."

        5. @Tash: "however, reading dozens upon dozens of your comments, the message between the lines of: i date light skin, long hair, latina…etc…and black women are so hard to deal with…what conclusion do you expect us to come up with?

          Just because you never said: i don’t like brown girls…your claim to only date light/latina girls confirms the former."

          I wanna hop in here real quick and point something out Tash because you seem pretty logical but people do this all the time and you're doing it right now.

          Like you, I obviously dont know Dr. J's true intent. Unlike you, and a lot of folks around these here parts, I'm not trying to jump to conclusions either. I'm not sure about this "the message between the lines" theory you're presenting because it's very possible you're reading wrong or possibly making the lines up to fit him into a box. I say "you" but this could apply to anyone. Anyway, to my point…

          "Just because you never said: i don’t like brown girls…your claim to only date light/latina girls confirms the former." – Great premise but your conclusion is flawed. First of all, I dont think J has EVER said he ONLY dates Latinas/light skin women. Like seriously, I do not believe he has EVER said that and I've read a lot of his posts here and abroad. That's just something people have started to assume about him, which is interesting but besides the point I'm going to make.

          Even if he does (and I dont know one way or the other), that IN NO WAY, SHAPE OR FORM, means he dislikes/hates every thing else. It means he has a preference or a type. It doesnt mean he dislikes those that do not fall into his preference/type – which mind you is a preference/type yall are assigning to J, not one that he has ascribed to. For example, if I like vanilla ice cream, it doesnt mean I hate chocolate. It means I like vanilla. If you want to "read the message between the lines" that I hate chocolate, that's your conclusion – but that doesnt make it correct. In this case, it makes it in-correct.

          To relate this back to women, if you like men taller than you, that doesnt mean you hate short men. It means you like/prefer tall men. Just because we're talking about a sensitive subject (race/color) today doesnt mean you can manipulate the parameters of the argument to fit a preconceived conclusion you clearly want to reach from the very beginning. If you're going to be objective, be objective. However, dont pretend you are being objective here when you obviously constructed the argument in a manner that allows you to reach the conclusion you wanted.

          Ok, thanks for your time. 🙂

          *throws my two cents down and exits the debate*

        6. I didn't shout out anything as if it was fact. I simply stated that this is how your words are perceived. I said: what is said in between the lines.

          To insult our intelligence as to think that only the exact words spoken, speak what's in your heart is ridiculous. Just as you can profile each reader based on not only what is said, but on what's not said, so can we.

          When I did the speech for the White Coat ceremony of the incoming students this past May, I told my peers that I wanted to do this speech because of how I wanted them to feel months afterwards. I still remember the speech at my college graduation in 2005… I remember NO other speech in my life, other than 2-3. Why? Because of how they made me feel. I was in tears at my graduation b/c of the heartfelt, transparent manner in which it was presented.

          Months after my white coat speech, students, parents, profs, dean, is still complimenting me. I give God all the glory!

          So, the reason I won't do a search is because it's not so much the words you wrote, but the way in which we received it. It didn't sit well in our souls. Sure, in a court of law you'd be right. But the heart of the matter remains…

        7. Thank you for your reply WIM.

          I'm going to say this, I really love the rebuttals! Thank you for making me second guess my stance, but I will stand my ground.

          Comparing skin color to ice cream choice is my first problem with your rebuttal.

          As many upon many and even yourself already know, the color issue is deeply rooted.

          You'd be surprised how many of our preferences are due to brainwash…

          I stated earlier that there is NOTHING wrong with his preferences, however, when it comes to natural attraction, if they are a stark opposite of what you or your kin looks like, there is always an issue. Period.

          The fact that we even know the profile of the chiks he normally dates shows that it's a point of contention.

          Most of the topics we discuss have nothing to do with race, but if "light skin/latina/long hair" somehow gets thrown in, you have to wonder, but why?

          Who cares what she looks like?

          I only know of one other writer's dating profile, as far as what they normally gravitate towards. And that's you.

          Otherwise, it doesn't come up with other writers unless asked up front or the topic calls for it, b/c to them, it's not that serious. Beautiful is beautiful. Black is black.

          Again, there's been comments on J's part where he had to throw in the light-skin/latina part. why? So that he should be revered?

          As a man, you'll never understand this, b/c we think differently.

          Believe me, I would love to be wrong about this. It doesn't benefit me one bit, either way.

        8. All i'm asking you to do is to give me something to go on when you say this is how I perceived you…

          Was it the post on Football or was it the post on Black Women are Perfectly Fine? Was it a comment on the Beauty Complex or was it a post on Modern Day Matchmaker?

          You just proving to me that nobody can sustain their point. They can't give me one comment, they can't give me one post, they just talking about perception. But they can't even tell me why their perception makes any sense. Seems like y'all want me to be that character, not that I ever stepped into that role.

        9. The good book says to steer clear of the look of evil as a means to avoid random negative perceptions. But, even with that, you can't avoid that all the time. How a person perceives something is often based on experiences…and we've all had different experiences.

          It's one thing to say, "I think it's possible you may have an issue with X based on my perception of you via your posts and comments". But, you have to leave room for error…cause the fact that you or I perceived something doesn't always make it correct…whether we've felt it or not. Let's not even act like we've never felt anything only to find out later that our feeling was wrong…the good book also says that the heart can be deceptive. Some of y'all are telling this man what it is and isn't for him…and, unless his Momma is commenting on here…no one here is qualified to make these judgments, lol. Like, at all.

          The good book also says that only God knows the heart. So, y'all might wanna leave him to his God to work all this out.

        10. “Just because you never said: i don’t like brown girls…your claim to only date light/latina girls confirms the former.” Hold up…

          *Goes back to Tuesday's Post by Dr. J and reads a part of what he wrote:*

          "Over the course of my life, I’ve dated women of all complexions and races. In fact, there’s a story about this race thing and myself worth telling, but this is not the time or place. Let’s just put it this way, I don’t discriminate."

          Now I understand the man said prior to that statement that when reviewing his dating history he has dated a majority of light skin and latinas, but he also dated people of other complexions as he followed up with the statement I outlined above. Was I the only one that peeped this?? *shrugs*

        11. I saw the exact same thing and held that sentence there throughout each and every comment someone made about dr. J's preferences allegedly being some sort of allusion to a color complex. I submit that it was easy for me and other women who did to do this because we weren't looking for that issue. We weren't hungrily picking apart his words for some inflection of European brainwashing.

          I agree that Dr. J's style may seem abrasive at times. But when the woman in me gets over the alleged offense, I see some of the truth in what he writes. I get over 'how it was presented'. I think all some people saw were the words 'curse' and 'brown skin girl' and they were just itching to break out their spiels on African American color and identity. Someone earlier mentioned there's a tendency to warp words around here, cited it in defense of the points made in regards to color complex arguments, but that's exactly how Tuesday's debate (if such a grand word could be applied) got started. Warping that one little clause of 'I'm not bragging' into some sort of tell tale admission. Then insulting all who didn't agree or took things less seriously as 'obtuse', making claims that 'we ladies have got to do better'.

          Ie. I kinda hate that 'ladies we've got to do better' run because it almost always follows some sort of unfair, feminist claim.

        12. @TeaCup

          Ie. I kinda hate that ‘ladies we’ve got to do better’ run because it almost always follows some sort of unfair, feminist claim.

          I totally get you, but it NEEDS to be done… Women need to check each other… Not me… Especially in a egalitarian environment…

  34. Hmm… I think people got mad cause WIM simply didn't tell people what they wanted to hear.

    I never really thought about the "African-American" term before, but now that I have it does seem out of place if it does not specifically apply to me. Sure, there are those that believe that "everyone came from Africa", but if that was the case we would all be Eden-Americans and be done with any classifications.

    Earlier, low self-esteem was mentioned, and that seems to be the much more important topic to discuss in this case. If you are not comfortable with yourself, you are going to make life a living hell for many others. And I am the last person to touch the light vs. dark debate.

  35. I'm so glad that my pro-blackness emerge almost in unison with my Woman Consciousness. What a combination for my liberation!

  36. I'm gonna preference this by saying that I'm legitimately an equal opportunity employer when it comes to skintone. My last two SERIOUS girlfriends were DARK brown (not just brown like myself). That's just for some background before y'all start jumping to conclusions.

    Aight, so Imma try to be brief, but I probably won't cause there's too much to say…sigh

    First off I get where the ladies are coming from about Dr. J (no shots fired. read on cause I'm gonna defend him later). It definitely seems like he makes sure to let the readers know that light-skin and Latina women have some very desirable features in his opinion. (Nothing wrong with feeling that way). The point where I agree with them is that the way people perceive statements is as important (if not more) than the way the speaker intends them (I've learned this the hard way). I'm not gonna go back and point to some specific incident for proof. This ain't court, and it ain't that serious imo, but sometimes it seems like he throws in praise for Latinas, yellowbones, and long-haired chicks when it's not necessary (ie he finds a way to tie it into a lot of different topics). He does legitimately seem to be trying to get into brown-skinned women (and I've noticed how he's never mentioned dark-skinned women also, which is a whole nother topic) also. However he's made it clear that that isn't his natural preference, which is ok. Not every guy is equal opportunity when it comes to skintone on chicks. He's certainly not the worst about this. I've heard some really effed up stuff from a lot of black men (especially ones that are either brown or dark-skinned). This dude is at least trying to be self-reflective and overcome his bias/preference (even though he doesn't owe it to anyone to do so).

    Mabyl is right. Most dark-skinned sisters aren't mad at light-skinned people, and they don't hate them. They're mad at the culture that puts them on a pedestal for no other reason than being light-skinned. I can understand that point and respect it. However a lot of that frustrated energy gets misconstrued as jealousy, bitterness, and self-esteem issues (and sometimes it is).

    But the person I agree with the most is Cheekz Money. People need to stop expecting deep, intellectual, fair, and unbiased/non-conditioned behavior and preferences when it comes to superficial topics. NEWSFLASH: BEAUTY IS VERY SUPERFICIAL! It's also subjective. We all get that. I used to ride hard defending darker skinned women (and still do when people are mean about it), until I realized that they would just as easily play a short dude or express their own preferences for tall, dark, and handsome. They're just like the rest of the women when it comes to being shallow (as far as beauty is concerned). We all have the right to be shallow when it comes to who we find physically attractive. Does it suck that men will be a little bit more moved by physical features (as opposed to personality) than women? Of course it does, but life sucks. I'm sure if these same women would stop going after SOLELY tall, dark, and charismatic men they could easily find someone who found them beautiful. And that's all it takes is ONE person to find you beautiful. Because at the end of the day, even if an individual such as Dr. J's preferences don't include you, so the f*ck what?! Do you wanna smang him? If not, get over it. Life goes on. Didn't y'all read and agree with the conclusion about how short men have to suck it up and improve every other aspect of themselves? That's life. It does suck, and yes much of it has to do with the media and the type of pretty women they bombard us with daily, but when we say the same about tall men, y'all tell us to suck it up. So practice what you preach. There are countless men who find an attractive woman attractive, even if she's midnight black (and I'm one of them). Stop giving attention to the men who don't find you attractive and watch how much your dating life (and self-esteem) will improve.

    And the sentiment I can't stress enough is that EVERYONE IS NOT BEAUTIFUL. And that's ok. If everyone was beautiful then none of us would care about being beautiful. It would be like bragging to another person about being alive. The reason we all seek to be attractive is because it's an exclusive (and elusive) concept (and it massages our ego). The best thing about beauty is that it's subjective. Imagine if we all had an agreed upon top 100 most attractive people, and nobody disagreed (we all know they'd be murdered left and right, but you get what I'm saying). Think how much the world would suck if beauty really was objective. Luckily it's not.

    Also, light-skinned girls stand out in a crowd of brown and dark-skinned women, because they're more rare. The same way that a tall guy literally stands out in a room full of average height and short guys. I don't see why this isn't obvious to so many of you.

    Bottom line: Stop giving so much attention/validation to people who ain't checkin for you or anybody with your natural features. It's not healthy for anybody's soul to do that. That would be like me trying to convince a white chick who's not into black guys at all, that she's being unfair and should give us a shot. Wheredeydodatat?

    F*ck, I knew this would end up being a post in itself :/

    1. @JustMeTheGuy

      This dude is at least trying to be self-reflective and overcome his bias/preference (even though he doesn’t owe it to anyone to do so).

      YES!!! I root for Dr. J to evolve how he please & if he finds some of my personal advice to him as helpful… He can use that to further his evolution…

      I realized that they would just as easily play a short dude or express their own preferences for tall, dark, and handsome. They’re just like the rest of the women when it comes to being shallow (as far as beauty is concerned).

      Thank you for pointing out this BLATANT hypocrisy with women… If your comment wasn't so long, we could delve into it… I will permalink you for another day…

    2. When it comes down to it, the only people that have a problem with one's preference are the ones who don't meet it, and they aren't the ones in the position of choosing. Do you ever hear the ones who actually meet the preference complaining about getting chosen? No, because it doesn't affect them like that. Bottom line is this: everybody has a market for dating, learn to tap into your market or make the changes (if possible) to reach a different market, or at least shut up about it. Complaining about it isn't going to guilt somebody into loving you or wanting you anyway, and if it did, it wouldn't last anyway.

      It seems like people want you to respect their right to choose whoever they want to date based on whatever standard and preference they have, but don't want to respect yours. If you want somebody light skinned, 6'3" with green eyes and curly hair, fine. But don't get mad if you're rocking a short natural afro with a wide back,or you're stick thin and a dude wants a chick with long flowing hair down her back and has an "exotic" look and she's built like a video model.

      1. Umm…

        If u think the discussion that was happening was a whole bunch of brown skin-id, short haired woman stomping around with machetes b/c "boo hoo," he's not naturally attracted to me, check again.

        In fact, except for the ones who don't have avis, the trend I noticed were that the brown-skinned chiks who claim to have shorter hair are the ones that co-signed him.

        Everyone else that challenged his intentions fell short of one or both of those physical characteristics.

        Hence, IT'S NOT ABOUT US!! I could give a rat's a** if I was or wasn't what he naturally gravitated towards.

        How desperate must I be to get an emotional high from some e-character's preference?

        We are adults, discussing various topics, mostly anonymously. We gain insight from each other, and walk away much the wiser, hopefully.

        When we notice a compelling trend, we point it out, b/c we realize this trend is not limited to the writers. A healthy discussion can lead to epiphanies and understanding as a whole.

        Everyone benefits!

        Unfortunately, what ends up happening is that "we" become extra sensitive and ish, and it cuts the convo short! Thank God we haven't resorted to name calling…yet.

        There is a reason why I keep coming back to this blog. It is special. What makes it special are certain qualities that are often lost on other group/public blogs.

        But, i can only imagine the levels this blog can reach when we can really allow ourselves to be insightful, not take offense, not throw insults, and just really DISCUSS!! SMH

        SO HELL NO…speaking for myself, I'm not challenging Dr. J because Im brown/dark skin with short hair (and if i was, so what) and my feelings were hurt b/c he normally doesn't gravitate towards me.

        Im challenging him for the same reason I challenged my students in Korea, my peers, my friends, my family and everyone who I care about…for self-growth!!

        There!

        1. Actually, that was just an example. Not saying that particular segment of the population was the one that had a problem, just using that as an illustration. I'm saying that sometimes we make things bigger than they are, and sometimes downplay things that are important. I don't know if a preference is all that deep as being a crisis or an epidemic of colorismunless that preference is being made to be the only standard of beauty across the board.

      2. As a black woman, I completely agree with Paul B's comment and then some. Everyone DO have a market specifically for them in the dating field. Instead of black woman wasting energy on why a percentage of the male population (black men included) don't like them they should focus on the percentage of the male population that do love them some chocolate no matter what kind of chocolate it is. That's it that's all. __Black women be the best YOU PHYSICALLY, mentally, emotionally and spiritually. Do some self-evaluation and stop blaming society, media, past and present day racism for you not getting the life/man that you want. I don't mean to waterdown the impact race, class, sexism, stigmas/stereotypes and colorism has on the black woman. However, these life obstacles are NOT impenetrable barriers that you can never overcome. BUILD A BRIDGE, GET OVER IT. Take a note from black men. Accept the WORLD for what it is. Crying, complaining, tiresome discussions, begging, blogging, writing books and creating documentaries about it all WON'T CHANGE SQUAT! It only further stigmatizes and turns off the men who ARE interested. No one wants someone who appears ill, weak or hardened with issues, trama and life. __

  37. This is a rushed comment, I apologize in advance.

    Simply put: This post and comments reminds me of 2 things: "Divides in the Black Community" http://abagond.wordpress.com/2011/04/22/the-7-lay

    Bougie vs Ghetto

    American vs Immigrant

    Racially scarred vs Racially ambiguous

    Light vs Dark

    Huey vs Uncle Ruckus

    Men vs Women

    And as for the Black American vs African American debate, I always think of this quote, I am "American by culture and citizenship, African by blood and history."

    Notes taken:

    -This has nothing to do with anything but I find it amusing how many times people (Including Jamaicans, African/Black Americans, and Africans) have mistaken me for Jamaican or African, although I am neither, simply by my looks.

    -There's soo much persuasive writing going on. It seems a lot of anger occurs once people start arguing over opinions not facts.

    -"Still, I will admit that one of the difficulties I had in writing the requested post was I couldn’t adequately segregate what I found beautiful about black women specifically. You see, I find women beautiful period." Perfect. Because none of us have the exact genetic traits or DNA of the other. I have a feeling that if all men thought this way this topic of discussion wouldn't even exist. I could be wrong though.

    -Also I never knew calling someone "Asian" was considered ignorant among other people *duly noted*. I have a large number of Asian friends and they never claimed offense.

    But I enjoy SBM, major major Love to you all

  38. First things first Mabyl… We have to address this comment…

    I didn’t know Dr. J post would be immortalized, like the “Get Over It” Series… But when you work as hard as he does, something special it going to come of it…

    Misandry: Will Women Ever Admit They Hate Men? Mabyl’s comment & my short response

    Why can Adonis say VILE disgusting things about Black women here and he receives a little slap on the wrist, (and a wink from the brothas) with some brothas saying, Oh Adonis, I don’t necessarily agree…” or some soft sh*t like that. But when I express my opinions,” Oh, I’m disturbing the peace, turning the blog in on its ear and attacking people?”

    Yeah some of you sistas do this too. then again, Chris Brown one all those BET awards…

    High status men, & bad boys can get away with more with women… Known fact…

    Oh… I get it now… I finally read your comment… And it is loaded BTW…

    —————————-

    If you are going to accuse me of saying “VILE disgusting things about Black women” please quote like the beauty @MissMina did… Give me something to respond to… What exactly did I say that inspired you to make such an accusation…

    Mabyl, I get attacked for what I say frequently…, which is okay, because I am inflammatory & and everyone comes from a different perspective… But I keep a cool head… Two simple rules…

    Make sense. & Maintain Composure…

    Even as angry as I appear on the eStreets… I am having the time of my life… I deflect ad hominems & stick to the points…. I want you to stick around long enough so I can give you kudos for saying something spectacular, just like SmartFoxGirl

    And I have no problem admitting when I am wrong, & I concede points… It is just as rare as running into a Quality American Black Woman

    Streetz has addressed me, Most has addressed me twice, Lyrically Inclined has said his piece… Even Lincoln even has given his condolences on Max’s blog #EffaBlogdogCauseOneDayWeGonnaMeet!!!! … But assuming that a significant portion of men don’t agree with me… A lot of these men have lives, whereas I am a black guy who spends a lot of time blogging… Time is the enemy here…

    I disagree with @thereluctantsocialite… You can hide somethings in a book from most black people, but not from SBMs or SBFs… I am like Yankees, Lakers & Duke Basketball… Negroes root for me to LOSE… Looking for some contradiction in the madness…

    That is why I appreciate @Wisdom Khalifa for acknowledging my consistency…

    ——————————————————————————————————————–

    Now that we gotten warmed up… I want you to address @MeteorMan’s comment…

    The other half is the systematic ‘sweeping it under the rug’ approach to issues negatively affecting (black) women.

    Now, I know you believe in gender roles, because you would like to see the SBMs attack what I say… So, I assume you believe that black men of our community are responsible for addressing the issues & restoring order…

    If you were a TRUE feminist/egalitarian (not a female supremacist) , this would be a moot point…

    The problem comes in because YOUR BLACK FEMALE counterparts want equal rights, but not equal responsibility Men cannot address women who play both sides of the coin

    Black Women have to willingly give their power to men, so men can properly address the issues…

    From an egalitarian standpoint… I don’t want to talk about Black Women… I want to address Black Men…

    But Black women rarely address Black Women’s Self-inflicted wounds… So, I have volunteered to do so, until my women with equal rights do their jobs…

    It gets tedious addressing Out of wedlock having, obese carrying, thug-loving, STD carrying, attitudinal, misandrinistic, gold-digging, black-female-supremacy believing, blantantly hypocritical black women

    We can't forward as a community until the women have been thoroughly addressed & corrected…

    Super Saiyab To The End

      1. Seriously Adonis,

        you really have to stop addressing my girly parts, especially on a public blog. It's insulting on many levels. I am not that chik. I have never talked about them, for you to think I was on that level with you or the rest of the e-world, neither have my avis ever showed them. Again, I am not that chik.

        I had no other way of relaying this to you, but it has to stop.

        1. @Tash

          Yes Tash, we know you are more than your looks, and I should respect your non-bodily qualities… *Cues "And The Beat Goes On" by The Whispers* <DEL> even though it holds little relevancy </DEL>

          Insults are taken, not given… That is why I rarely get insulted in life or on this forum…

          That being said… I don't plan on sleeping with you anytime soon, nor plan on building some type of friendship… So, I don't have to suck up to your fragile perception of what it means to respect a woman…

          You have complimented Tash, be thankful for those breasts, a significant portion of women in this world ENVY you… & with they got the attention you refuse to harness

          Maximize your physical potential & you'll go far in life…

          P.S. And don't think just because we are in the eStreets, that I wouldn't compliment your breasts at an SBM event or another random setting… I am very similar in content IRL & IEL (In E-Life)

          P.P.S. I still would love to see some dreadful STI pics, good reminder… Only when your ready & not a moment before…

          SSTTE

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