Image Source: New York Post 10/01/2011.
The other day @TheNation, a left-leaning political on-line periodical, tweeted the link to an article called, What to Wear to SlutWalk. I was intrigued. Clicking on the link, however, lead me to an article with different subject matter than I expected. An excerpt:
The first SlutWalk, organized last April by Heather Jarvis and Sonya Barnett in Toronto, was a response to a Toronto police officer telling a group of students in a public safety class that women “should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.” Since then, more than seventy SlutWalks have popped up in places as diverse as Chicago, Berlin, Cape Town, New Delhi and Mexico City. New York City’s highly anticipated SlutWalk [was] scheduled to take place on October 1.
@SlutWalkNYC’s bio states: SlutWalk NYC is part of a worldwide grassroots movement challenging rape culture, victim-blaming and slut-shaming, and working to end sexual violence.
Like most movements, SlutWalk is not without its proponents and its critics – both male and female. In protest of the “advice” offered by the Toronto officer who inspired the walks, many participants choose to wear the exact or similar clothes they were sexually assaulted in to prove that the type of clothing a woman wears should not have an influence on if she should be sexually assaulted. There is never a justification for this action.
What does that even mean?
However, despite SlutWalk’s intentions to be all-inclusive – although many operate independently – there have been charges that African American women are not solicited for their participation or feel alienated. For instance, after asking readers of the site about their opinion on the upcoming SlutWalk in NYC, despite the fact that a number of them call the upper East Coast home, many had no idea SlutWalk existed or its intended purpose. Mind you, this is of a movement that Jessica Valenti of Feministing.com described as, “the most successful feminist action of the past twenty years.”
Given the negative connotation associated with the word “slut,” some fear the name itself may alienate would be members, which includes but is not limited to African American women. Farah Tanis, co-founder of Black Women’s Blueprint and other like-minded women stated in an open letter, “As Black women, we do not have the privilege or the space to call ourselves ‘slut’ without validating the already historically entrenched ideology and recurring messages about what and who the Black woman is.” In a separate interview, Tanis went on to explain that SlutWalk also fails to have mass appeal among the sexually assaulted needs of Asian-American, Latina, and Native American women.
I’m not sure how I feel about SlutWalk personally. As conditioned people of mostly American residence, we do judge people by what they wear whether we like it or not. However, the type of clothing or lack thereof is not a reason to justify sexual assault. Specific to the movement itself, it seems to have the right intentions but from my admittedly limited readings and cursory knowledge, the lofty goals may be hard to implement through the current methods. Participants seem to rely on a disperse set of walks organized by groups around the country (and world) whom may or may not work together in coordination. Their grassroots organization relying heavily on viral social media. This is a familiar fault of many “movements” organized by our generation; #OccupyWallStreet comes to mind.
I, for example, found myself wondering what happens after the walks? Will SlutWalk be the vehicle used to champion for change or will it eventually lose momentum and become another movement that comes, stalls and then goes away without any tangible accomplishments to show for its existence? On the other hand, if it sparks conversation about the too often hushed and taboo subject of sexual assault from a young black male like myself on a site such as SingleBlackMale.org, is that enough? Is talk without results ever enough?
Readers, did you know about SlutWalk before today? If yes, have you or any of your friends/acquaintances participated in any of the walks? Why or why not? What are your thoughts on SlutWalk – its name, its goals, and its chances of success/failure as a movement? I would be remiss not to ask your thoughts on the quote from the officer who inadvertently inspired the movement: “[Women] should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.”
After reading their 'apology' letter for the sign, it is extremely evident that Slut Walk isn't inclusive and has zero desire and care to be inclusive.
Now onto the movement itself. They are going about it in an extremely bizarre way. The walks seem to be about women and girls attempting to draw the most attention to themselves by dressing in the most bizarre or revealing ways rather than effectively conveying the point that their dress does not mean that they should or want to be raped.
The officer's comment was asinine on far too many levels. The largest ones being that the majority of rape victims are raped by men that they know, there is zero basis for how a woman dresses to the whether or not she gets raped (by this logic Muslim women or women in general would only get raped in the Spring/Summer or places where it is hot most of the year), and because the onus of getting raped should not be put on the victims.
yeah, that sign is ridiculous! its like saying, yeah you guys are so low on the totem pole that you have become insignificant, so we’ll just take your spot. White women are always trying to be on that, “we know how you feel”, ish. No, you don’t know how we feel because you are still white, and you still enjoy those privileges so just admit it, accept it and we’ll be good.
its crazy I feel like when other groups are going through a struggle they want to always compare it the "blacks". or pull the "were going through the exact samething card". But then when we want to have some voice in their movement (especially one that effects us also) we get ignored or they , you can participate you just cnat be seen. But the womens movement has always had this undertone.
Thanks Malik for the second paragraph
I didnt see the apology letter. I did a little background research on the meaning of the "Women are the N of the World" sign and it apparently originated from Yoko Ono in another former feminist uniting movement gone arry. John Lennon and Yoko Ono later recorded a song of the same name.
Yup, and while I luh me some John Lennon, I can't with that song's title. Then again, I've always been annoyed by "Oppression Olympics." Folks are always quick to compare/contrast (or worse, compete) when there are so many nuances that makes each movement different. No broad strokes will fix it.
"The walks seem to be about women and girls attempting to draw the most attention to themselves by dressing in the most bizarre or revealing ways rather than effectively conveying the point that their dress does not mean that they should or want to be raped. "
Yeah, while I completely get the "shock value" method to get attention to a cause (and actually agree with this method in a lot of cases), I think the message was misinterpreted and definitely misplaced. Most of the coverage is about their attire, which defeats the purpose… the bigger picture. Which is unfortunate…
We had something similar to that at my undergrad. I don't think that it is right to blame victims for crimes such as rape, just because someone dresses as a so called "slut" doesn't give anyone the right to rape or sexually assault them. I hold myself and dress a certain way in public because I don't want to be perceived as something that I am not. I think better advice would be to tell women to be aware of their surroundings and to try not to walk alone at night etc.
Now, to me the topic of feminism and other movements like the SlutWalk being accessible to Black women is another issue. Black women face a unique intersection of oppression and prejudice, (Black) x (Woman), which also means that many of our issues are different from White women, therefore, it is difficult for us to stand behind these issues or to even get a spot at the roundtable when discussing these issues.
We had to start our own movement because Black rights were associated with men and Women's rights were associated with white women and our voice was not being heard. When feminism started white women were fighting for equal rights in the work place and trying to get out of the confines of the kitchen, Black women had no choice but to work in order to put food on the table and Black people as a whole weren't getting equal rights. Our issues were and for the most part, will always be slightly different, they don't quite align.
While I do think that essentially we want the same things and we are fighting the same fight, we as Black women have other hurdles to overcome before we worry about what people say about us dressing as a slut. I for one am more worried about the burden that is placed on Black women and women of color in the welfare system, our unequal treatment in the workplace (especially in law firms), the fact that we are targeted for sex trafficking in America, the fact that raped, kidnapped and murdered people of color get less media attention, I could go on and on and on. So yes, I agree with these women, but as a Black woman, I have bigger fish to fry.
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I agree with you. And the statistics for black women and rape are higher than white women. I think 1 in 5 black women will experience sexual assault in their life time. That doesn't include those that are unreported. In terms of race relations, minorities are more likely not to report a rape.
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I'd heard of slut walk but not in depth. As far as the policeman's comments, I'm interested in knowing the entire context in which he said it. It sounds offensive off the bat, in a blame-the-victim kind of way, but hearing the entire comment may or may not soften the edge.
I read an article today about a guy in Memphis who raped his own mom. I doubt the clothes she wore warranted the attack in any way. But the fact remains that there are sick individuals in this world, and we women have to take personal responsibility in protecting ourselves. Just because we have the right to wear what we want and to do as we please doesn't mean we should throw our common sense out the window. We can protest until limbs fall off, but we can't undo the damage of a sexual assault once it has occurred. I say that if dressing a little more conservatively even slightly dimishes the likelihood of an attack, then it's just worth it. Better safe than sorry.
In undergrad, UPD sent out a "supsicous black male" alert because of an alleged attack that occurred at maybe 3:00 a.m. on a Sat morning. The white female victim was walking near campus alone in the wee hours of the morning. While many people were pointing out the racist undertones in the campus-wide email, I seemed the be the only person asking, "Why the he** is she walking around alone at 3:00 a.m.?" We cannot be this stupid.
I used to walk home from campus alone at 3 a.m in a city that's not favourably regarded by the media as far as violence, etc, is concerned. I want to take offence to your comment, but I sometimes look back and think that I should have been smarter about at least that part of my life. I had to walk past a park and some dark areas. It was almost as though I was daring something to happen. I thank God that nothing did.
I gotta say… because she has that right… and she has the right to do it without being attacked. Was is it smart? Probably not. But there's no excuse.
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I hear you, and I fully agree that she has the right to walk around at 3 a.m without being attacked. BUT she can only control HER actions, not those of the people around her. A predator with a hard penis and a rap sheet won't give a s**t about her right to walk around in the middle of the night minding her own business. She can't control the actions of a potential predator (without a gun/weapon), but she can prevent herself from being put in a vulnerable position.
By this logic, women shouldn't even date, since most women already _know_ the man who attacked them. By merely getting to know someone, then, you're putting yourself at risk and in a vulnerable position.
Sigh.
I really think there's a problem with asking a rape victim "well what were you doing walking around anyway?"
But we can certainly agree to disagree as I have been doing down thread as well.
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Chunk, I see your reasoning because it has been consistent but I dont think anyone here is advocating for rape (that would be crazy) and I dont think anyone here is techinically "blaming the victim" more than they are saying there are obvious precautions one can take to reduce the likelihood of something occuring that no one here wants to occur. Perhaps the fact that we are talking about the subject of rape is making this too personal or maybe you feel the same way across all examples? Take for instance, if I as a man chose to walk through the ghetto at 3am and I got shot, clearly the shooter is in the wrong. No one is cheering the shooter (unless they dont like me) but a number of people are going to wonder, "why was WIM walking through the hood at 3am in the first place?"
Given the world we live in, not the world we want to live in, there are certain precuations I believe we should all take. This has nothing to do with blaming the victim more than it has to do with making decisions that provide the least amount of risk to our well being. In an ideal world, rape would not exist, but since it does, a two-prong strategy of educating men AND women seems better than simply saying "men should not rape" or "women should not dress slutty."
Your comment disheartens me.
I won't defend my position other than to say I don't think I was taking it personally at all. Based on some off-blog messages I've received about the discussion today, I will also say that I'm not the only who feels the way I do about the conversation today. But you've singled me out- perhaps because some people only click the thumbs up button, instead actually commenting which puts one in the line of fire for rebuttal.
And if, when one disagrees- even with sound reason, the resulting comment is that they're too sensitive about the topic, I can now understand why they don't take the time to type rather than click "agree."
So as I've done with conversations that seem to be stalemated today, I will take this opportunity to keep the rest of my thoughts to myself.
*tips fitted*
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aww i think he was just trying to share his opinions with you – discourse/sharing is the entire objective of this blog. You shouldnt feel bad about not seeing eye to eye with everyone. Personally I dont agree with your pov but I totally understand why you feel that way. Cheers! 🙂
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Oh, yes and yes, we cleared it up easily through twitter. Thanks for saying something though, I appreciate it :o)
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Thanks 48 and you are correct. Chunk and I did clear this up later on (via Twitter) but for the benefit of the audience in case anyone else read my comment wrong, I was saying the subject was sensitive, I was not calling chunk sensitive. I could understand why that would have felt belittling and marginalizing to her overall point – which was a good and well articulated point even if I didn’t agree completely.
It's all good in the hood. Alls well that ends well.
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The reason I asked why was she walking around alone at 3:00 a.m. was because we have policemen on and off campus who would have escorted her to almost anywhere. She managed to contact the cops after the alleged attack, so I figure she could have contacted them in the first place and prevented the attack from ever occurring.
This is real life and bad things happen. No we can't live in plastic bubbles because we're afraid of getting hurt, but we can take some precautions to protect ourselves. The bad guy is still the bad guy, and nobody's blaming the victim. But why be a victim if you can help it?
And as far as saying women shouldn't date by my logic…it's rare that I go on a date without at least pepper spray. I have the right to walk around without any protection, but I choose to err on the side of caution. But that's just me.
@prettykeety
#TeamPepperSpray…
I need to know what it is like to be tazed & dazed… Builds character
I'm with @NaijaSweetz that I want to take offense, but I also agree with your point. Why would you make yourself a prospective victim? Because in reality the world is more cruel than it is safe. During undergrad there were multiple reports of men that would sneak into open doors/windows of dorms and "cuddle" with female students. More often than not, they entered a window/ door that was left open or unlocked. It became so widespread that now the campus affectionately calls these men (unsure if it's multiples or not) the Georgetown Cuddler. http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Georgetow…
I think it's about not taking your safety for granted. You're in public, guard yourself accordingly.
My recent post Hear My Call
" I seemed the be the only person asking, "Why the he** is she walking around alone at 3:00 a.m.?" We cannot be this stupid."
This is how I felt about the whole Natalie Holloway situation.
have heard of Slutwalk, via my reconnaissance skills. as far as i can tell, SlutWalk crystallises the differences between white feminism and black woman-ism.
but, as a black male, i don't think i can give an opinion other than 'sexual abuse/assault is wrong".
*excuses himself*
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"SlutWalk crystallises the differences between white feminism and black woman-ism."
You can NOT leave that like that!! lol I _so_ want to hear you dissect that a little bit… (please?)
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Well, I don’t claim to be a feminist, nor a womanist, but it seems like with this slutwalk, the feminists that are running this didn’t take into account the struggles that black women go through in america, based on race and gender. As much as BW suffer from sexism in society(since they can walk down the street without being accosted by BM) this shows a example of how they suffer via racism.. I don’t know womanist history, but that’s probably the main cause of the split and the startup of womanism in the 60s/70s.
My bad on spelling..using my phone.
I don't think black women can walk down the street without being accosted by men period, race not being a factor.
I remember walking at 6pm to campus, and this old white man pulled up in his Benz only to flash me his junk and solicit s*ex. What about a backpack, sweats, and a hoodie encourages predatory advances? But well I grew up in Oakland, so I pulled out a knife and politely asked him if he'd like me to cut it off? He quickly drove away. Imagine though, if you another woman wasn't so prepared?
I'm not encouraging weaponry, but I would recommend all women take self-defense classes.
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Am I the only guy who was disappointed between seeing the title and reading the actual post??
Feminist dressing like sluts in masses? Just to disprove the old Chris Rock joke? That is just cruel to perverts.
I can think of some black/latino functions that need slutwalk's attention. The puerto rican day parade (back in the day), Freaknik, Black Biker Week, Memorial Day in MIA, The Labor Day Parade in BK… am I forgetting any?
Men are getting away with such rachetness, I really think these feminist need to have a talk among themselves before they try to tell me what to do with my hands. Because I am getting mixed signals. Not to mention the difference between the way pretty boys are treated vs the way "Hell-Rell-in-the-face" ninjas are treated. If the issue is so serious, everyone should be held to the same standard in terms of inappropriate advances.
"Men are getting away with such rachetness, I really think these feminist need to have a talk among themselves before they try to tell me what to do with my hands. "
just remember, no means no…and yes means no.
lol..i think
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"just remember, no means no…and yes means no"
lol! When in doubt, slowly walk away…
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you will still have to register as a offender and notify your neighbors when you move.
I'd only heard of the SlutWalk prior to today because I follow you on Twitter and I was slightly intrigued. The name itself is more interesting than the actual movement, IMO. It's an interesting concept, but I don't think that it will necessarily bring about any "change" in society's views on sexual assault.
I don't agree with "slut-shaming" and agree with the ladies above who've said that women should simply be more aware of their surroundings. I think that if you're out walking alone at 4:00am and rapist sees an opportunity to rape you, it will happen regardless of how revealing your clothes may be. But sadly, if a woman has the courage to come forward and report/identify her rape/rapist, people will judge everything about her whether they believe her story or not.
The stigma around rape/sexual assault is so negative and polarizing that most victims never even say anything. I've seen stats as high as 95% that reflect how few victims actually come forward to report sexual assault. Anyway, I'm getting off topic. That's how I feel about that…
'The stigma around rape/sexual assault is so negative and polarizing that most victims never even say anything. I've seen stats as high as 95% that reflect how few victims actually come forward to report sexual assault. Anyway, I'm getting off topic. That's how I feel about that…'
Your words are so true. Morally, we all know a woman can have sex with 100 men consentually, and decide she doesn't want #101. If he rapes her, the past will ruin her case, if it's his word against hers. There is no easy way to remedy this and while I believe any woman should not be assaulted, I'm not sure I could send a man to jail under the aforementioned circumstances.
"I don't agree with "slut-shaming" and agree with the ladies above who've said that women should simply be more aware of their surroundings. I think that if you're out walking alone at 4:00am and rapist sees an opportunity to rape you, it will happen regardless of how revealing your clothes may be."
i get what you're saying, and what their walk is supposed to entail. if rich folks walked around with their wallets exposed, flashing money..dont get whiny when ya get robbed. However, because most women that get raped, known their attacker, the type of clothing is quite irrelevant…, which may in fact, be the main objective of their agenda.
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I think what people forget when it comes to rape is that most survivors know their attacker. And most rape is premeditated. For instance, the DC rapist that's been around for 13 years and has never been caught even though he continually leaves is "calling card". The way he picks his victims is by following them for a month of more, learning the habits, and planning the attack.
I think for women it's about making sure that you don't have a "schedule"… or at least that you're aware of people in your surrounding…
My recent post Hear My Call
I get the concept behind the walk, but the execution, to me, is flawed. Yes, they are bringing attention but to themselves, not the platform of sexual assault. I agree that NOBODY deserves to be raped or sexually assaulted, so awareness needs to be based on minimizing exposure to situations that can lead to rape, such as not leaving open drinks around, travelling in groups and such. We as a people can no longer afford to be ignorant about the world we live in, and the risks that abound in it. I’m not saying walk around and be scared, but be aware.
This sentence, "I get the concept behind the walk, but the execution, to me, is flawed. Yes, they are bringing attention but to themselves, not the platform of sexual assault." sums up my general thoughts on this and similar movements. I dont understand the end game, goal, or results the movements are looking for so I find it hard to support or critique the movement. I find myself often watching from the sidelines.
I only just recently heard about "slut walk" – yeah, that police officer's comment seemed bazzare – as if he's blaming the victim for her choice in clothing. I remember reading an article somewhere about a police officer saying that women should avoid wearing skirts and shorts to avoid being sexually assaulted. I guess he thought by wearing skirts or shorts provided "easier" access.
Heard of the movement, but I don't think they have a clear agenda. It's like they started the paper and never finished. It makes them look like attention whores because there is no plan (as far as I can tell) to monitor progress. Then, they mention the police department, but there is no mention of the courts.
Also, I do not understand why men are blamed for juding women as 'sluts,' when from what I've seen, women are just as judgemental-if not moreso-than men. Perhaps because these 'sluts' make it harder for the 'good women.'
At the end of the day, I just live my life, use common sense, and stay true to myself. I'm pretty intent on following the g-code.
For the second post in a row, I feel lie I am out of my lane…. But I will give you the limitations of the knowledge on this subject… If I am Out-Of-Pocket please put in back In-Pocket…
Disclaimer – Adonis does not condone or believe in any human being s*xually assaulted… Men if you are s*xually frustrated, there are many alternative s*xual outlets that you can access (Internet P*rn), any human being that commits a crime of s*xual assault, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, with the chance that you will be s*xually assaulted in turn at the Greybar Motel
1. 99% of the women at the sl*twalks have very little to worry about when it comes to being s*xually assaulted… I haven't seen one sl*twalk photo with a hot white woman…
2. I pray that most BW stay out of the sl*twalk movement… It will not help your already messed up image… I promise…
3. People need to face the fact that the nuclear family is busting out at the seams… And men in general in America are not being raised properly, and some are expressing that by committing s*xual assaults… I tell women early & often to
a. Carry a stungun, pepper spray and/or learn self-defense (The justice system is VERY lenient towards women, so most women can kick a man's a$$ with little impunity + bonus points if she is in the right)
b And if you are going to go out at night… It is smart to have men present, or a few women to chill with… (esp. if you are going to get SMASHED)
4. I think the sl*twalks are counterproductive… They may have good intent, but I think it is sending outsiders the wrong message… The only solution I have is the precautions women should take above, until we figure out a ways to intelligently incentivize felonious men to stop s*xually assaulting women…
The sl*twalks needs to be given a family size dose of hemlock mixed with arsenic & die a quick, sudden death…
*grabs popcorn*
Super Saiyan To The End
I might actually agree with this ENTIRE comment… O.O
I must be sleepy.
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By getting SMASHED, I mean getting into a DRUNKEN stupor…
When it comes to a sensitive topic, I understand that there will be people reading this at might have been a victim of s*xual assault…
I wrote this with them in mind…
The nuclear family never really worked for anyone other than whites anyway. Black people tend to have an extended family unit, and historically our collective cultures don't fit in with the nuclear family. So it may just be busting at the seams for Black people because we never fit in that mold anyway. The rest of your point were good tho 🙂
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“IT SAYS THERE AREN’T ENOUGH BLACK PEOPLE MAKING…
The point I was trying to make… is that we need men in the household… Simple as that….
I think….I….agree….with….your comment. Like, the whole thing. Somebody quick, call my momma and tell her I love her and she can have all my New Edition albums and Nancy Drew books.
*falls out*
You agree with this:
"1. 99% of the women at the sl*twalks have very little to worry about when it comes to being s*xually assaulted… I haven't seen one sl*twalk photo with a hot white woman…"
I sooooo disagree. I don't think it's about attractiveness. I think any woman is at risk for rape, and I don't think attractive white women are at more risk than anyone else.
Maybe it was a joke that I didn't get….
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Yes, that is actually his little sense of humor.
"1. 99% of the women at the sl*twalks have very little to worry about when it comes to being s*xually assaulted… I haven't seen one sl*twalk photo with a hot white woman… "
You are out of pocket, sir. Rape is not about attraction.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
So what is it about Ms @Chunk…? Power?
That is exactly what rape is about.
I disagree with the majority of your comment, Nash. Point the first is just straight-put wrong. Rape is not a crime of attraction or passion, but of asserting physical power over another individual. This is why we hear of people raping women of all ages, shapes, sizes, clothing choices, etc.
Point #2, regarding the image of a black woman: I don't see how black women JOINING a movement that is primarily that of white women would negatively impact the way black women as a whole are viewed.
#3: To assert that men are expressing their frustration with the structure of a nuclear family by raping and otherwise sexually assaulting women just doesn't work for me. Do you mean to state that if a woman is raped, the man doing it is mentally substituting her as his wife???
And 3b, about taking a man with you when you go out and get drunk –> that actually accounts for a good percentage of the "date-rape" that happens. It goes with the whole idea of most women being assaulted by someone they know and trust.
I do agree that the slutwalks are ineffective, but for the reason someone stated a bit upthread: The women demonstrating and walking are drawing more attention to themselves than to the actual platform they are representing. And as WIM said, there seems to be no plan or end-point, just a series of random walks.
Is all.
“Will SlutWalk be the vehicle used to champion for change or will it eventually lose momentum and become another movement that comes, stalls and then goes away without any tangible accomplishments to show for its existence?”
I’ve been wondering this about the occupywallstreet movt. Only time will tell.
Readers, did you know about SlutWalk before today? If yes, have you or any of your friends/acquaintances participated in any of the walks? Why or why not? What are your thoughts on SlutWalk – its name, its goals, and its chances of success/failure as a movement? I would be remiss not to ask your thoughts on the quote from the officer who inadvertently inspired the movement: “[Women] should avoid dressing like sluts in order not to be victimized.”
I think I found out about it sometime earlier this year. I have some friends who probably would – black women too – because they like engaging in this sort of unconventional thing. I personally think the name itself will and has excluded a great number of people, with this gal being among them. I just glanced at their site, and read "We are asking you to join us for SlutWalk, to make a unified statement about sexual assault and victims’ rights and to demand respect for all. Whether a fellow slut or simply an ally […]". It's interesting, because I actually don't go around throwing the words "slut" and/or "hoe," but they still hold negative connotations for me, and they are neither something I self-identify as, nor that I will promote or align myself with in any capacity.
As has already been mentioned, a great number of women who have been assaulted cannot be accused of having worn "sexually inviting" clothing. Furthermore, for a lot of these women already dealing with shame and self-blame, signing up for something so-named can be psychologically threatening, because it's almost owning another label that could be mentally filed away as a possible reason why they were attacked. I'm sure that some women who were completely covered have beaten themselves up about the degree of tightness of their clothes, etc. In that sense, this would not be very helpful.
To be fair, the message is a good one. While women should definitely practice discretion, unwanted sexual contact ought never happen. From the outside looking in, however, this movement looks as though it would hold maximum appeal for the woman who is leading a very sexually liberated lifestyle. The fact that I live just outside of Toronto and yet read about this randomly on a blog is telling. Then again, I am out of the loop in general. Whatevs. In any case, there's a lot in a name, and the movement already holds limited appeal from the outset and will have limited success in general. There is definitely a confounding impact.
The officer's words were silly, because we then have to go back to the argument of what constitutes a slut, dressing like a slut, etc. Had he simply said that women should dress more conservatively, it would have been somewhat more forgivable, although still not wise because it is vague, and it still shifts responsibility and gives the impression that dress is always a determining factor in the matter.
I completely agree with you. The word slut is the real issue. It is so loaded with negative connotations, its hard to get people behind a movement that would identify anyone participating as a slut. Most women live their entire reproductive lives in fear of that word and its synonyms. White women have the luxury of self identifying because they do not carry the stamp from birth like Black women. Black women aa lot of time and energy trying to scrub the label off before we even become sexually active. So I fully understand not wanting to participate. It’s funny that whenever white people start something, its assumed we need to be included. I don’t think we do.
That said, I do believe the function of the word is to shame women and restrain their sexuality for protection of the male ego. Some would argue it is to maintain family integrity by assuring all childred belong to the presumed father. But its really about a man’s desperate need to believe his tools special, powerful, unique. We have enslaved ourselves to prevent hurting a man’s feelings.
We are self enslaved and we shame each other. We not only restrict our sexual activity, we are forced to hide and lie about the sex we do have. To the point where we lie to ouselves about our desire and set traps so we can be seduced and tricked into doing what we truly want. All for fear of being labeled. In service to the male ego.
It would not be bad if it were certain that some definable actions could lead to being labeled. But no one agrees on what makes a girl a slut/ho. Even fewer stick to their own definitions. So any woman can be called a slut at any time for any reason. No due process required to have your reputation ruined. And its so much easier now with social networking. It can be based on a fabrication.
Why do we continue to support this as women? Because we hope to distinguish ourselves and look like blemish free princesses. In comparison.
Is it me, or did she just go in on this comment? +10
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Thanks, I was trying to put adequate thought into it. 🙂
100% agree whats a slut to one man is a princess to another. and a women will call you slut just b/c. Hell if you look at her man wrong your a slut. I dont think its the actually action of sleeping ith said number of men I think its the respect she calls for from the men she sleeps with to have for her. Im sure we wouldnt hear the word as much if women did'nt deal with men who dont respect them. I mean look at world star girls letting dudes vidoe tape them having sex while he raps a free style. Or girls on twitter callin them sleves candy deep throat.
Women have a big corss to bear , trying to be sexual free while still having the opposite understand that you are to be respected and you making sure they do so.
I wouldn't call it "going in". I'd call it the exact same thing that I call 90% of her comments: Discount Draws Legal Defense Fund.
Check out her blog and see if you'd care to make a donation.
Thanks for demonstrating my point so vividly, sista
Ok, I gotta apologize for taking a cheap shot. But what I will say is this: 1) you need to warn somebody that your site is NSFW. It's a good read, but dang Gina. And 2) You used Naija's thoughtful and relevent comment to turn the conversation towards a fight that you have a dog in. There really isn't much of an argument about whether or not any woman *deserves* to be raped. And I was nodding my head on your first paragraph because I totally agree with you. But once you started in on the whole "… function of the word is to shame women and restrain their sexuality for protection of the male ego." etc. – you lost me, and I recognized a tune I've heard from you before. Putting a Puffy remix on the same old justifications. It's your life to do with as you please, and trust I'm not on anyone's high horse or soapbox on the subject. But game recognize game Wild Cougar. And I SEE you.
@Teflon Mom
Thank You for seeing what I see when I read @WildCougar
If men don't want sl*ts he is insecure or has ego issue… When most of the time it is for practical reasons… (ensuring paternity, her fitness as a mother & wife)…
It doesn't knock most the stuff she says… Cause if she is right, she is right (even when I can't see it), there is something off when every other post, she calls men insecure & ego-driven
Projecting anyone (FTR, I do it too…)
The article is about slut walks. The word slut is used. This is a discussion. I placed my comment where I though it fit. I have a point of view relevant to the topic. So what you SEE is what I’m clearly showing you. I’m pretty transparent. A clear description of what my site is about is on my gravatar and Twitter page. I outed myself when I started BLOGGING about my adventures. No detective work necessary, Sherlock.
And I'm gonna go 'head and award the point to Tef on this one. Dogma, even when for the purpose of speaking out against dogma, is still dogmatic.
My recent post The Millennial Manifesto: How 80′s Babies Can Save the World
lol @ you playing referee
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@teflon. I am one person. I’m not a movement, a cause, part of one or trying to make one. I have one opinion. My “agenda” is expressing myself. That’s it.
So, as one person with one, singular point of view, i would appreciate not being marginalized by a woman for expressing myself. As if my expression were part of some diabolical plot. I get that enough from men. If you disagree with my opinion, you can just disagree. Making me larger than I am and insinuating that I’m trying to do something covert is personal. And offensive.
Marginalized – by me? Um, naw I'm not going to take credit for that. If anything, by choosing to be a swinger and promote promiscuous behavior in women as the norm you have marginalized yourself. If all you seek to do is "express yourself" your comments would be more personalized – Me and My instead of Us and Our.
You would admit that you've been set apart by your own actions, not "man's desperate need to believe his tools special, powerful, unique." WE have not enslaved ourselves to prevent hurting a man's feelings – WE recognize that there is some actual value in between our legs, that there is a price to be paid for flouting social norms and WE behave accordingly. Now, what YOU do with yourself – again – is your business. Like I've said before, I don't condone disrespect and apologized for my initial flip comment. But I'll treat you the same way I would treat a man who wanted to talk to me about religious freedom (something I agree with), who I later found out worshipped Satan. I'll respect your beliefs…from a distance.
Are you stating a rule for what someone can say here? Or just objecting to the way I express myself, I really don’t know what your point is. Perhaps you can think it over and address the argument rather than the arguer. In this whole string, that hasn’t been done. Once.
And I’ve awarded that point to myself.
No one has told you what to say or write. What I pointed out to you is that I know that you have an agenda. And just like anyone else with an agenda, you find a reason to bring any conversation around to your "cause". I'm no Sherlock, but something about your past and present comments seemed a little…off, to me. Not off like I didn't agree with you, but I couldn't really put my finger on it. Then I clicked on your name, read your site and everything became clear. You can try to tack on swinger advocacy to women's rights, the mis-use of the word slut, Black women's politics, how often you use the words WE, WOMEN, OUR, etc…..but when most of us talk about that stuff we're not talking about you. You're on a whooooole nother level.
That's like if I said my house was junky, and you agreed, but I'm talking bout 3 loads of laundry that needs to be folded and you were on the last episode of Hoarders.
You have an issue with me, my choices and my point of view. I don’t care how you feel about me. But I would appreciate your respecting my right to be who I am and to have my point of view and express myself how I choose. If I see an issue as one shared by women, that’s my opinion. The fact that my opinion is not shared by you doesn’t mean I shouldn’t use the word we or women. There are many women who would object to your characterization of what you say “most of us” are talking about. You are not most of us. And you don’t know what most of us think. Just like my opinion does not represent womanhood, neither does yours. So back up and reevaluate.
I get the sense, for some reason, that you want people to have an issue with your choices. Like, you want people to call you a slut and a hoe and all this other stuff. I don't know why but that's how it comes across. Personally, I don't judge you and I don't think Tef is judging you or has any deep disagreements with your right to live your life the way you see fit. What gets annoying after awhile is your incessant proselytizing for the church of promiscuity when it is completely irrelevant to the conversation at hand.
I don't think a woman's sexual history be it non-existent or be it as expansive as yours (as described on your blog) has any baring on whether or not what a woman wears effects whether or not Mr. McRapist decides she's his girl for the night. That's the point. And it begs the question, what makes you bring it up all the time- particularly in conversations that have nothing to do with sexual history.
My recent post The Millennial Manifesto: How 80′s Babies Can Save the World
I'm sure that MOST OF US are not swingers, or cougars with cubs coming in and out of the den. You've got to do better with reading comprehension. Several times I wrote that I can respect you – your right to do as you please (it's your body) and your right to express yourself. I never attacked you, I just don't agree. You began your reply on this thread with some slightly off-topic diatribe about women being forced to hide and lie, women enslaving ourselves, men not having special tools, etc. When challenged, you claimed your propoganda was relative because someone said "slut". Next you were "marginalized". Now apparently it's personal. It's not, I don't know you like that. But you've been low-key putting out little tidbits that made me scratch my head for awhile. I just decided to write on it today. And that's MY opinion, which I am also free to have and share.
That sounds like a personal problem cause you’re jumping in to make a point about what you think I’m looking for and how it bugs you. Don’t like what I say, scroll down when you see my avi. That simple. All this is so unnecessary
Lessee, you’re not arguing with any point I made and you respect my right to have a different opinion and express it however I choose and you don’t have a problem with me personally. So what are you talking about? Nothing.
"It would not be bad if it were certain that some definable actions could lead to being labeled"
I'm pretty sure there are…determinate actions that is; dare I say that lack of discretion is one of them. I kind of see your point, but I really think that the term just exists to encourage discretion and not shaming as you put it. It's like the example someone gave earlier about a rich person flaunting the cash in their wallet begging to be robbed; there's absolutely nothing wrong with being loaded, but the onus is on you to use your discretion and not attract the attention of a potential robber to yourself. (1/2)
My recent post Race – an illegitimate concept.
Personally, I dont quite get the objective of the Slutwalk movt but they seem to be saying 'eff personal responsibility' Obviously nobody deserves to be raped or robbed, but we all have a responsibility to ourselves to take all cautionary steps(regardless of effectiveness) that may drastically reduce the chances of such things happening to us. It could be as basic as not walking around by yourself at odd hours or not getting stoned/wasted with strangers to not walking around naked.
My recent post Race – an illegitimate concept.
I fully get the meaning and intent behind the movement. I believe that it has not gotten the attention either negative or positive that it may have hoped for. I had not heard of it before today and I live in Chicago. Feminists have a heavy charge at their feet because they are now working against a music industry whose misogyny and degradation is reaching new heights. I am sure my students would not view slut walk for its full intent but more so as a vehicle for them to get some action. ;(
I think that the cops comments are absolutely correct but poorly worded. Whenever dealing with a sensitive topic you have to be careful with how you word things. I do not believe he was in any way shape or form implying that any woman deserved or asked for it. What I DO think he was trying to say was that how you dress greatly increases your odds of being singled out by a sexual predator. Now some women may not like that bit of truth but it is the truth still.
I think these women heard what they wanted to hear and ran with it. But getting back to the cops statement, yes you have the right to dress how you want but understand that the more provocative you dress the better the odds of you being singled out by a predator. Its like me walking down the street with $100 bills pinned to my clothing and expecting not to get at least approached. Or switch it up….let’s say I was a crook looking to rob someone. Who am I gonna pick? Dude that looks like he shops at Bergdorf-Goodman or did that looks like he gets WIC checks? Not saying Bergdorf dude “asked” for it but let’s be realistic. Appearing to be a preferred target often makes you the primary target.
I agree, I think the way he said it was wrong but the idea holds some truth. Just because a woman is wearing little clothing does'nt mean she "is asking to be raped", but lets not act like she's not dressing that way to draw attention to her self. Now weather that attention is positive or negative is one thing but coming out in litte too nothing will make people's heads turn.
I think he used the word slut becuase its disrespectful. When you think of the word slut you thi nk of a woman who does'nt respect herself because she sleeps with any and everyone. You think of a girl dresses ike a street walker. (not all ppl but some). Plus ets not act like women dont throw the word slut around like wild fire when they see a girl dressed a certain way.
It’s actually not true that revealing clothing makes it more likely that a rapist will choose you. Check statistics on that. Most rapes are committed by men the women know and trust. The majority of women in the world are sexually assaulted at some point in their lives.
It's not just about rape; it’s about sexual assault in general. I think sexual assault can be physical and verbal. And we’re not saying revealing clothes are going to sky rocket your chances of rape, but, just be aware that if you’re wearing something revealing, someone might try to violate. Am I saying its right "NO". But does it happen yes.
When we talk about ways to protect yourself against rape, I don’t think what a women wears should be the main focus. That’s where the cop was wrong. The first step is to be aware, if you don’t feel safe walking alone, or being alone with someone then leave or go somewhere else. I travel by myself a lot I’ve had guys try to follow me in their cars at night as I walk asking me “Did I need a ride”, I felt unsafe so I stayed as far away from the curve as I could and as soon as I hit a store walked inside until they were gone.
Women don't get raped based on the clothing they wear. Most rapes do not occur at 2am while jogging through the park. Those are just the only ones the news focuses on because it plays into the tried and true method of garnering viewership by scare tactics.
The majority (be a large margin) of rape victims know their attackers. The majority of rape victims are either attack in their home or the attackers home.
Stop watching Law & Order: SVU. Most rapists aren't boogeymen who lurk in the shadows.
No one is saying that everyone who gets raped is dressed like street walker. But I can understand why the cop might have said what he said.
If you read the bottom part of my comment I did make it clear that we shouldn’t focus on what a women wears as an indication of whether she will get raped or not. I said she should be aware of her surroundings, (and that includes her surrounding with ppl she knows as well). (I just gave an example of how to be catiuos in a certain scenrio)
I think what the cop is trying to say is that when you wear layers or jeans or dress pants, it's harder for the attacker to undress you. Because it actually takes effort, and unless they are serial rapists, ones that plan and premeditate their attack, they are most likely looking for an easy fix. But I agree that the comment is poorly worded. The problem is that we are taking his comment and creating our own image of what a slut looks like, or how she dresses. Which leaves a great deal open to interpretation.
My recent post Hear My Call
"…..to prove that the type of clothing a woman wears should not have an influence on if she should be sexually assaulted."
the key words were "should not". I'm sorry, but how can you tell a rapist what should and shouldn't influence their urge to rape? If that could be accomplished, why not just tell a rapist to not be a rapist at all????
Yes, perhaps there should be less focus on what a woman's outfit of the day is and more focus on keeping rapists off the street…
I must be the only one that heard about the original Slutwalk in Toronto.
The walk is stating the obvious: no one deserves to be r@ped. The officer was incorrect: any woman in the wrong place at the wrong time could get r@ped.
That said, this entire concept is stupid. I'm pretty sure all the rapists are having a change of heart right now because the sluts have banded together because some cop hurt their feewings. I'd probably have a little more regard for this if they were emphasizing women not going out drinking alone, or walking by themselves at night, versus saying I can dress like a slut and nothing should happen to me.
This reminds me of the Occupy Wall Street movement. People who are genuinely and rightfully upset, but not sure how to address the situation.
That's the thing. I'm wondering exactly how is this walk going to cause a change. I get the "I should be able to dress how I want to without being assaulted or raped" argument, and I also get the "a woman should be able to go anywhere she chooses and when she chooses without being assaulted or raped" argument as well. The problem is that this world isn't such a place where that happens. There are some sick folks out here, and unfortunately they aren't all locked up, or in a place where they can be helped, so there's a risk of a woman coming into contact with them. I doubt you can eliminate motive, but you can minimize opportunity when possible. As I said before, we can't afford to be ignorant of the world we live in, and not protect ourselves.
However, when you FOCUS on what the WOMAN can do to avoid rape (which is already flawed because we've already determined that it's usually someone they actually know and therefore aren't expecting to be raped by, sigh) you transfer the onus of the act to the victim instead of to the attacker where it belongs.
At what point do we transfer the FOCUS back to the perpetrator of the crime (as the one who needs to modify their behavior) in order to curb the occurrence of the act?
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There's a simple fact that's escaping you: a woman most certainly CAN be partially responsible.
The focus is on the perpetrator of the crime. They are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. A rapist is 100% a rapist. He did the act, but there certainly are things you can do to reduce your chance of being a victim. Telling a rapist, "don't rape people!" isn't goint to work. Ignore reality at your own risk.
Women encourage their own rape. WOW.
Yes, some women do in some cases. I never said in all cases.
Are you seriously suggesting that they are never partially responsible?
No, I don't believe victims of crime are responsible for getting victimized. I wouldn't ask my mother, sister, daughter, girlfriend, wife, friend, or any woman I know how she encouraged her own rape. The fact that you would speaks volumes of your ignorance regarding rape as well as your feelings towards women.
I'm not the ignorant one here. You simply fell for all that feminist crap that a woman can never be at fault for anything. It's like saying Johnny Knoxville isn't at fault for getting hurt doing one of his Jacka$$ stunts because he wasn't trying to get hurt.
Except trying to get hurt is what they're trying to do, within reason. You would tell you daughter she deserved to get raped if she wore a dress that her attacker deemed 'too short'. That's all that needs to be said about you.
The fact that you honestly believe people get raped because they are dressed a certain way is asinine and falls flat on it's face based on the fact that women raped while in conservative clothing and very few rapists would even attest to that being the reason they raped someone. So yeah. Pure unadulterated ignorance on your part.
(facepalm)
No. I'd tell my daughter not to get drunk and walk home alone from a bar, because there are people who would try to rob, rape or even kill you.
You'd tell your daughter, "it's ok baby, do what you want, the world will change for you, my precious little snowflake!" That's all that needs to be said about you.
Why are we all personal up in here? Call me crazy – but I see some value in what both of you have to say. Malik says "make the world better by addressing the attackers (offense)" Hugh says: arm the women with better strategies to keep them safe (defense).
Why can't these strategies work together?
Except I don't disagree that people should always be cognizant of the surroundings. I have always abhorred the notion that the people who are victims of any crime should be blamed because they were victimized regardless of how much they 'played a part in the crime.'
She could have been running around Manhattan screaming 'I WANT TO BE RAPED' through a megaphone, gave out her home address, left her door unlocked, handcuffed herself to the bed spread eagle, and she still doesn't mean she should be raped. I don't jive with that f*cked up mindset. Never have, never will.
Victims shouldn't be chastised for being victims. Whenever you do that you are blaming the person for it happening to them and excusing the person of perpetuating the act regardless of any garbage that is backtracked on the contrary.
Yes @Teflon the sky is falling…
Both strategies need to be enacting simultaneously…
Although I am more @HughJazz than @Malik…
But it shows you how tough & sensitive this issue is to talk about & to ome up with reasonable solutions to keep women safe & protected…
And don't forget… there are also FRA (False "S*xual Assault" Accusations)…
Sigh
FRA stands for False S*xual Assault???? I gotta find something to bust your chops about – I think we've agreed at least 3 times on this one post and now the world is bout to end.
If you need me, I'll be in a bunker 3 miles underground.
"You simply fell for all that feminist crap that a woman can never be at fault for anything."
This perfectly sums up what you're about Hugh! This is what I was trying to get at in our discussions below. All your posts somehow inevitably lead to that comment above! You are trying to hold women at fault for everything, even if it means justifying the actions of a rapist! That really blows my mind. I know I've already thanked God for all the men in my life but let me go back and do it again. Some people (things) just make you appreciate what you have!
No, I hold women accountable for things women do. Just as I hold men accountable for what men do. I'm known on this blog for my phrase "women are crazy, men are stupid", so yes, I do hold men accountable for what they do.
I'm a libertarian; I believe people can do whatever they want, as long as it doesn't affect other people. But I also hold people accountable for what they do.
As I stated before, it's not a zero-sum game. Just because the rapist is 100% a rapist doesn't mean the woman didn't put her self in harm's way. That doesn't justify the rapist in any way, shape or form. He is a 100% a rapist, plain and simple, and deserves to rot in jail.
Yep, I agree, women encourage their own attacks….Like this one time, all I said was "Hello" and dude thought I was ready to get busy…nevermind, that I was walking, on a sidewalk during daylight hours and the guy was in my line of vision, but hey ya, know I could see how saying "Hi" could be dangerous…..darn me and my flirtatous ways!
Let's get something clear:
"Your assertion that women are culpable in being raped does not _escape_ me sir; I simply DISAGREE with you."
There's a difference.
And the focus is NOT routinely on the perpetrator of the crime, one only has to read to understand this, for it has already been proven and documented that this is one of the reasons women stop coming forward in the first place (we ROUTINELY blame the victim during the process of "prosecution" of the perpetrator, thereby removing the FOCUS from the perpetrator to the VICTIM) <– and this I will not repeat because to argue it with you would be ignorant when it's already clearly documented.
And the _reality_ is that most women are raped by people they KNOW, therefore, changing my clothes and walking in a group really isn't my main line of defense.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
"one only has to read to understand this, for it has already been proven and do***ented that this is one of the reasons women stop coming forward in the first place (we ROUTINELY blame the victim during the process of "prosecution" of the perpetrator, thereby removing the FOCUS from the perpetrator to the VICTIM)"
It is not blaming the victim, it's assigning blame where it belongs. Some people really think when things happen to them, they are wholly innocent. No one deserves to be raped, but it can definitely be your fault if you put yourself in harm's way. The woman raped by a boyfriend or long-time acquaintance isn't who I'm referring to here.
"And the _reality_ is that most women are raped by people they KNOW, therefore, changing my clothes and walking in a group really isn't my main line of defense."
Which I stated in my first post. Again, it is obvious those aren't the cases I'm referring to.
@Hugh jazz
I think your using the wrong word. I dont think someone is resonsible for someone rapeing them. They maybe responsible for putting themselves in situations that could lead to danger. Ex:being drunk at a college party by yourself around a bunch of wolves but even then she should not have to be repsonsible for someone breaking the law and rapeing her.
Someone gets it.
That's what I've been saying all along. You only disagree with the word I used, not what I was saying.
@HughJazz Charge it to the game…
There are readers who got s*xually assaulted or know someone important to them that got s*xually assaulted… And that makes it tough for them to take the emotion out of it…
ALSO, I do have a provlem which the way society makes victims UNTOUCHABLE & beyond CULPABILITY…
There has to be a balance between being a victim & taking responsibility…
SSTTE
Exactly. I know it's an emotional issue. I'd never tell someone who was just raped, "well, you shouldn't have walked through the park alone at bar time." But I wouldn't say it to a robbery victim either.
But rape has been elevated to an untouchable status.
Hugh, my brotha….I'm with you 100% and agree with everything you have said on here today. Some people see the perspective through a different prism. Like I always say on here: I can only defend what I said, not what you said I said.
Also, Larry, everyone has the same inentions… To protect women (although they are equals now… I had to sneak that in there…)
So, I can hang my hat on that…
All.Of.This. I don't understand how anyone can disagree with this general notion. Maybe I'm too left-brained and therefore look at things too logically, I don't know. *shrugs*
Well thats what lawyers do they try to make their clients win regardless if their guilty or not. I understand where your coming from to often the behaviors of men are blamed on women. At the end of the day a women does not "ask to be raped" no matter how you view it.
Now do some and focus on the word some, women put themselves in situations that could lead to danger, YES. yes most rape victims know their rapist but the word know is relative in certain situatuions. Like a rape on a college campus. In college we are familiar and know alot of ppl but you cant put your trust in everyone (men). Yea he's nice to you in the cafe on campus, but when you go to his room to chill alone and you dont really know know him sh!t could get real. again this is not excusing the rapist he still is wrong.
" I'd probably have a little more regard for this if they were emphasizing women not going out drinking alone, or walking by themselves at night, versus saying I can dress like a slut and nothing should happen to me.
This reminds me of the Occupy Wall Street movement. People who are genuinely and rightfully upset, but not sure how to address the situation."
I agree with you're entire comment.
I get what the women are trying to say… I just don't really agree with their method. Seems like they're just reacting, as opposed to actually having an goal in mind.
"Seems like they're just reacting, as opposed to actually having an goal in mind."
I know 🙁 This is such an emotional subject so I'm not in the least bit surprised. I think the first step is simply acceptance of the fact that these are not ideal situations and that the perpetrators of such evil are typically psycopaths(no sense of right or wrong), hence everyone's default reaction should be: what, if anything, can I do to protect myself from such people?
My recent post Race – an illegitimate concept.
I believe risk is a part of life. Everyone should take into consideration which factors increase or decrease their risk.
I’ll put it to you like this, read about this back in Toronto and my first thought was “I don’t know if I agree with calling yourself a slut, but wait its gon be chicks out there intentionally wearing as little to no clothes… I might have to roll”
Therein lies the problem.
Besides completely ignoring the struggles of women of color, this 'movement' also lacks sensitivity to women who've actually been sexually assualted. I doubt anyone who's been raped would proudly proclaim themselves as a slut. It appears that the goal of this movement was to court contraversy rather than effect any real change in how women are viewed and treated in our society.
Privilege has a way of blinding those with good intentions
I doubt anyone who's been raped would proudly proclaim themselves as a slut.
I concur
"Is talk without results ever enough?" <– This is the question of the new millenium. One the one hand, talking my change a few people and their way of thinking….but if the majority of your movement is dedicated to talk (and in this case, literally walk), then I'm not sure I can be down.
I've heard of the SlutWalk and I've always distanced myself from it:
1. I prefer Take Back the Night – TBTN includes actual speak outs from victims and is more about reclaiming yourself as well as the safety of the night and how to protect yourself.
2. This is really a feminist movement, and like I said during an earlier post, feminism =/= Black feminism. This is exemplified in the sign that SlutWalk "apologized" for.
I agree with their intention…but honestly, the movement kind of makes think that this is yet another situation where minority women have to discover a movement that works for us.
My recent post SlutWalk NYC and Black Feminism
Completely forgot that this tumblr piece was my last post – it's something I reblogged and pretty much covers exactly how I feel about the sign.
My recent post SlutWalk NYC and Black Feminism
Your post on CFC is _everything_.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
I know about the "slutwalk" for about a month.
I can't speak much on the matter. But I don't see the connection between a woman's clothes and the likelihood of her being sexually assaulted. Call me slow… But look at it like this…
I bet most people (men) who think of a woman being raped probably pictured some stranger lurking in a dark alley or something. It's WELL known (or at least I thought) that most victims know their attackers. So given that, why would clothes matter? Even from the outside looking in, how are clothes still considered the test of the likelihood of assault?
On the flip side, we (men) are automatically thinking of "self-help" solutions. Not saying one being aware of their clothing or traveling in groups are the solutions, but approaching it as recognizing it's much easier to control oneself than the crazies in society. So therefore, people should adjust their behavior to follow suite. Then BAM! That's the issue here I think…
Why should woman HAVE to be follow suite with the general opinions of men to change their behavior to ensure their safety instead of the men simply making the society safer for women?
iono…
But here's what I do know though. I have a couple of friends that have been sexually assaulted at some point in their lives. The whole setup is messed up… As a society we repress the sexual desires of women and tend to make them feel "dirty" and impure for having and/or pursuing those desires. Then throw it into their faces that as "men" we can do whatever we like and openly judge women who do similar (not even the same). Then we use the that desire for chaste (regardless of the direct or indirect motivations) to further disqualify them as attention worthy. Then we glorify the objectification of the a few women and use them as standards of attraction. And I haven't even talked about the intimacy involved with sex and of the like…
I'm just saying… but iono…
My recent post How to implement an OODBMS (pt. 1)
"Why should woman HAVE to be follow suite with the general opinions of men>/b> to change their behavior to ensure their safety instead of the men simply making the society safer for women?"
Because no amount of slutwalks, taking back the night, or general whining about the unfairness of the world will end rape.
Do you think women are able to change their behavior in a way that would end rape?
Nothing can end rape. As long as men find women attractive, it will never happen.
Keeping this reality in mind, women should act accordingly to improve their chances of it not happening. This obviously isn't going to end being raped by a male acquaintance that a woman trust and allows in her home, but it should at least give a woman pause before walking alone and unarmed at three in the morning.
"Keeping this reality in mind, women should act accordingly to improve their chances of it not happening."
Um.
Or men can just stoop raping women.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
I'm sure if you politely ask them to stop, they won't do it anymore.
Maybe if Mahmoud Abbas and Benjamin Netanyahu simply tell their countrymen, "stop killing each other", we'll have peace in the Middle East.
Is it your assertion that it is not worth treating a sex offender? (because there are programs, in case you weren't aware)
Are you against reforming the behavior of sex offenders?
What exactly is your objection to holding men accountable for the rapes they perform, instead of the women they've victimized?
All rhetorical, as this is where I cease my attempt at discourse with you.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
Forget explicitly stating it, show me one example when I even implied "it is not worth treating a sex offender?", or that I don't "hold() men accountable for the rapes they perform". The rapist is a rapist, pure and simple, and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
What I'm saying is some (let me say that again, SOME) women put themselves in harm's way, and bear responsibility in the act happening to them. But the rapist is still 100% a rapist, this isn't a zero-sum game. To use someone's example of looking both ways before crossing the street, you can fail to do that if you like. And the motorist that runs you over is at fault for running a light. But you still put yourself in harm's way for not bothering to look to see if a car was coming.
The problem here is that rape isn't about sexual attraction or sexual gratification, it's about control. It's about domination. It's about asserting yourself as uber-male, while capturing a piece of someone's innocence. Because the memory of the rape (for the rapist) demonstrates your strength. That's why heterosexual males will rape or sexually assault other males (themselves or with foreign objects). It's about quantifying yourself as the Alpha male where others have belittled you, and in demeaning others you have "reclaimed" your manliness.
That's why I think there are so many complaints and disagreements with your statements.
My recent post Hear My Call
I think you describing a serial rapist. What about the guy on campus who just is'nt use to no being no or hearing a woman say no too him. What about the guy who takes advantage of the drunk chick. I think its that we tecah are boys that sex is something that they are owed in certain situation and sometimes that leads to rape.
But isn't that also a power/dominance assertion? IF someone says no and you're not used to hearing that so you continue anyway? If someone is obviously impaired in judgment, and you are ware of it, and do something that you're not sure they'd want you to if they were sober? It's still dominance. It doesn't have to be serial in nature to be about proving yourself to be the one in control.
Meteor, I agree but I would like to further a conversation I read on another site about the SlutWalks because I think it's related. A commenter said (paraphrasing): "Why do women feel like sexual assault reductions are the responsibility of ALL men but reducing racism (or insensitivity) – like the sign holder – is not the responsibility of ALL white people?"
I think this is the issue. I think sexual assault is wrong but I am not sure how I can be responsible for all men or all of society beyond myself. It would seem, whatever the means, we should all take the necessary precautions to protect ourselves – men and women – given that, whether we like it or not, there are people in this society who will do us harm given the incentive or in some cases, simply the opportunity. I don't think it's as simple as "men simply making the society safter for women." I believe both should work together instead of assigning blame. In a perfect world this wouldnt even be an issue that would need discussion – but the world is far from perfect.
Yes. I agree there's an element of personal responsibility. What about when the said precautions compromise the rights of the individual? That's like saying, "Well since racism will always exist, I guess we should assimilate to prevent from being judged by our skin color." Forget a slippery slope… That thing is basically vertical…
Not even on an idealist tip though. At what point will the objectification of women and the systematic sexual oppression be frowned upon by society as a whole (and not just b/c the majority happen to be women)? I don't think every woman is expecting (or want) every man to personally be accountable for every other man, but there is such thing as doing one's part AND that could me keeping yourself in check on various fronts. There was a time when beating on your wife was as common as paper plates. However, even though it does still happens, its no longer something a woman expects when dealing with a man. And in those situations it wasn't like a, "oh. the world isn't perfect" approach. Men taught their male children THAT was the way to "handle" a woman…. messed up… I can say it's messed up due to the evolution of society to understand the wrongs of propagating such abuse. In the same light, overemphasizing the personal responsibility approach in THIS case basically says two things:
1. Women should expect to be assaulted when wearing certain clothing.
2. An add-on to the last paragraph in my original comment: "THEN tell them there was more they could've done to protect themselves."
Sexual assault of women is not an isolated issue that can be attributed to the times without further investigation and additional scrutiny. Our mothers are women ya know…
My recent post How to implement an OODBMS (pt. 1)
Regarding your first paragraph, to a degree, that already happens. Everyone is attempting to assimilate albeit to different degrees and depending on the desired goal. Even white people try to assimilate, as has been discussed before, everyone has to live up to the media's definition of beauty. Further, and for example, you wouldnt go to a job interview wearing a hoodie, you wear a suit because that is the expectation and you are trying to convey something about yourself through your clothing. This is a choice. No one is forcing you to wear that suit. Again, I agree, sexual assault is never right. However, as others have pointed out, I'm not sure if wearing whatever you want and fighting the injustice of sexual assault should be as convoluted a discussion as this movement appears to have made it.(1/2)
(2/2)To the end of your second paragraph, I think you misunderstood. I wasnt saying women should take more personal responsibility. Well, at least not more than men. I think both should take responsibility but I meant I'm not sure how I can be responsible for the next man's actions unless – as you suggested – we as a society come together to improve as a whole. Perhaps, given your example, this is already taking place but at a slower pace than man of us would like, especially since this generation is used to instant gratification. Change doesnt happen overnight. A major fault with "kids these days" is if they dont see instant change they move on with life or become disenfranchised with the movement. Social media has spoiled us into complacency.
You applied for that job, hence you go to the interview to prove you can assimilate to that culture. The women who are sexually assaulted aren't applying for sexual assault. The collective knee-jerk reaction to cite a woman's clothing as a solution suggests there's sexual assault ready attire or something. Nawl… Moreover, why does there exists this underlying idea of a woman's attire assimilates her into the population safe from sexual assault? Is attire a pass for safety now? For completeness, it's like the employer picked you up off the street and forced you into a certain role based on your attire ASSUMING you wish to be part of that culture due to your attire. That's exactly ONE step away from saying: "Well, she dressed that way. She MUST have wanted it."
My recent post How to implement an OODBMS (pt. 1)
I think you may be reading my mind and articulating my thoughts better than I ever could. Thanks.
I heart you today.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
Your last paragraph is on point.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
Well said.
The thing that most assaults have in common is that the woman was alone or without male companionship. This is more a factor than what a woman wears. Maybe we should have a law in place that says women are not allowed to be out and about without a man present. 0_0
Oh and I never heard of the SlutWalk before today's post. Reading the title and seeing the picture made me think the walk was about something completely different. I thought it would be a walk about women defending their right to be sluts. That would have been interesting!
@Kema
This also makes me think that not having a man (child's father) in the home for single moms put there children & her at risk
at risk of…….. being sexually assaulted or raped??!!! o__o
BullSnickery!!
I can't cosign this. I'm sorry.
Damn, I read this title and got excited about some newfound parade I missed… (grumbles)
Back to reality…
From my extensive research (google) I understand the underlying message, but the execution is poor. The awareness will be focused on the women and their scandidly clad outfits and very little on the message. Men are visual creatures, the only thing I got from the photos were more photos in my head and that's counterproductive.
To provide shock value and not back up with pertinent information on a very very grave subject, does victims a big disservice.
Nothing justifies rape, unless she raped you first and its revenge rape. You can't just rape a girl cuz she's dressed like a slut.
But women are naive enough to think they will get respect after coming out the house lookin like a skrippa. If I walk in a lounge with a suit on, people gonna look at me different then if i walked in with a du rag with the tail out. End of story.
And no the "Slut Walk" will never be something big, you really think something called "Slut Walk" will blow up? That was a stupid name.
On respect:
You aint gotta respect what you assume my personhood to be based on what I chose to put on that day, but you will respect my right not to be assaulted, physically or _otherwise_, regardless of what I put on.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
My observations thus far from the article and the comments given have drawn an interesting parallel that I haven't seen talked about yet. On one side I see people refer to the stat:
"….the majority of rape victims are raped by men that they know, there is zero basis for how a woman dresses to the whether or not she gets raped."
Then I read stats like this:
"The stigma around rape/sexual assault is so negative and polarizing that most victims never even say anything. I've seen stats as high as 95% that reflect how few victims actually come forward to report sexual assault."
…then you should talk about it 🙂 … what do the comparison of these two comments mean? (I'm trying to understand your point…) Women usually know their assaulter… they rarely tell afterwards… and…………
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
I did! It wouldn't let me submit! smh…fail. My point was basically 5% of reported rape victims are the pool we are talking about that know their assaulter. If the other 95% don't say anything at all then we don't know conclusively who assaulted them or how. Cop is just saying, I think, that wearing less revealing clothing will lower the probability of such acts happening…not eliminate, of course, but lower. You can control what you wear, but can't control if any people will walk with you in a group. In other words just focus on things you can control at the very least to help the cause.
I think what the basic message the cop is saying is control what you can control to help reduce probability of negative occurances. Won't eliminate the possibility, but it won't increase the probability either.
@Larry
I kind of agree with you in the fact that you understand what the cop was trying to get at. But now we as women have to dress a certain way so men can do what they are supposed to do from jump, which is look but don't touch without permission. The cops comment lakes it seem like if you are dressed a certain way a man has a justified right to violate you. And I think that's how the protesters feel about his comment.
It's not that it doesn't give them a justified right to violate you, but you are drawing attention to yourself and putting yourself at risk. As you stated, a woman's attire makes a man look, so the woman knows she's enticing men.
The thing is you can't control what people do from there.
Exactly. This guy gets it.
No I get it , I know what I said up top. I'm just talking from the protestors point of view or what I think their notion is.
Hugh, I'm curious and I apologize in advance for getting one on one here but is there any point in time, EVER, that you think men should be held responsible for ANYTHING AT ALL? ANYTHING??? You are ALWAYS quick to put the blame or the responsibility on women, everytime! I mean, even when we're talking about rapists, you'll still go hell and high water to defend them? I mean, how traumatizing must it be for a rape victim to look to someone for support and be told "well baby you know, you shouldn't have worn that dress…" But then again, it's always easy to throw around apathetic theories until it happens to someone close to you.
First, apologies are not necessary, we're supposed to be discussing the matter.
Second, when did I defend rapists? Perhaps a metaphor is in order. If you leave your purse on a bench in the mall and walk away, you aren't an accessory to theft. But you do bear responsibility for your purse being stolen, because you left it there. And yes, the thief should be prosecuted, with no leniency. The thing is I believe in people taking responsibility for their actions, and suffering the consequences.
And yes, someone who I know was raped by someone she knows. It was at her urging that I didn't go after the guy. But it also didn't happen because she was half naked at a bar, drunk and high, flirting with every guy there, and walking home alone.
I'm sorry, at what point did we move from "it's your fault you got raped because you shouldn't have worn that outfit" to "half naked at a bar, drunk and high, flirting with every guy there AND walking home alone?" All you're doing is adding semantics to your theory in order to make it even easier to blame the victim. And that mall metaphor is as simplistic as it gets. Is that really what the situation is? The person who leaves her house in an outfit that she deems acceptable should expect to be raped in the same manner as a person who leaves her purse in a crowded mall should expect it to be stolen. You're doing it again, simplifying the issue in such a way as to blame the victim. How are the two the same? What about the person who gets raped in the winter? Is there an acceptable outfit that needs to be worn in the winter so as not to get raped? School us vulnerable women. It's not like we don't have enough on our plates already. Let's add to that "how women can avoid being raped by making sure their outfit is rape-proof!" What about the 5 year old child who is sexually assaulted? Or the two month old baby? Do you also believe that they should take responsibility for their actions and suffer the consequences? Why don't we AUTOMATICALLY condemn the actions of rapists and other sexual offenders and leave it at that instead of going further to provide some form of explanation or justification???
No. You're ascribing things to me I never said.
1. I didn't say women partially deserved to get raped because of their outfit, I said because of their actions.
2. Therefore, I didn't move anything, that was what I was saying in the beginning. Come to think about it, that is probably where Malik and I were parting ways. He's talking about outfits and I'm talking about behavior.
3. Yes, that is as simplistic as it gets. I'm not sure where you and some other people are taking my comment "women can put themselves in harm's way" to "you're pardoning the rapist". That simply does not compute. I never said anything to the effect of rapists shouldn't go to jail or should be granted clemency.
4. You equating the situation to children is interesting. So are you saying women are like children and can't be held responsible for their actions, as adults should? I guess that would probably explain the posts about men having to let women go instead of women leaving a FWB situation when they want more. Women must be minors and can't be held accountable for their actions.
Why am I not surprised that you, in a turnabout way, brought this back to the FWB issue? You seriously need to let that FWB discussion go Hugh. There were men at that discussion who placed the FWB responsibility squarely on women but for this current discussion, one as serious as rape, they're quick to defend the victim. You, somehow, can't seem to make that distinction! How can you be so blinded by your issues with women that you would still consider placing the responsibility of RAPE or SEXUAL ASSAULT on the victim? Is it that serious to you?
And it's really funny what you tried to do with your last point there. Really? You CLAIM that people need to be held accountable for their actions and suffer the consequences. And so again, I ask you? What about that 5 year old who is sexually assaulted? Or the two month old baby? Never mind whose actions I am equating them with. Since you're full of excuses and justifications for the rapists, I'm saying, explain whose responsibility that is to me…..
What imaginary "issues with women" are you seeing? Seriously, what part of "a rapist is 100% a rapist" are you having difficulty understanding?
The thing that I'm saying, the thing that about 70% of the commenters here seem to understand, is in most cases, the woman isn't responsible for being raped. But in some cases, women put themselves in dangerous situations where the likelihood of rape or even something worse (gasp!) is possible. The other 30% are shrieking and fainting that someone could possibly hold a woman (an adult!) responsible for tempting fate. Heaven forbid a woman walk off a tall building. "How dare you gravity send that woman plumetting to the ground! She screamed out 'oh no' as she was falling! No means no!"
(2/2)
To answer your questions, it is the same as in this case.
– The person who sexually assaults the five-year old should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
– The person who sexually assaults the two-month old should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
and…
…wait for it…
…wait for it…
…wait for it…
– THE MAN THAT RAPES A WOMAN SHOULD BE PROSECUTED TO THE FULLEST EXTENT OF THE LAW!*
Which goes back to my point of a person suffering the consequences of their actions. See, logic ain't so hard!
* The observant reader will notice I didn't say anything about the judge taking it easy on the rapist because the woman made herself an easy target. The observant reader will also note there is no "excuses or justifications" made for the rapist.
And let's disprove this specious as well:
"…you think men should be held responsible for ANYTHING AT ALL? ANYTHING??? You are ALWAYS quick to put the blame or the responsibility on women, everytime!"
Let's look at the last post on this blog that was about male-female interactions, WIM's Friend Zone post, from last Thursday. These are two statements I made, copied and pasted.
– Men, NEVER be friends with a woman that attempts to friend-zone you. Do not let them dictate that…If she doesn't give you a relationship, don't give her a friendship. Walk away.
– …this is exactly what the friend zone is like. Women are selfish for putting men there. Men are stupid for staying there.
So in the last post about men and women dating, I made a comment that stated men have to do something to spare their feelings, and another that said a man is stupid for an act that he committed. In other words, personal responsibility and suffering the consequence of your actions! And it was not blaming women!
I am consistent.
I see.
I think he needs more people…
I think it's a classic case of "blaming the victim."
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
I don't know…he was talking to a group of students in a public safetly class. It seemed to be a more advice driven narrative to me in order to help. But we all know the road to hell is paved with good intentions, right?
I don't t think the cop has to state the obvious advice of ,"don't rape women". And I'm sure women are told from when they are young other ways to avoid a sexual assault encounter (walk in groups, walk with another guy, carry mase, etc…). This is just another tidbit to add to help reduce the chances of it happening. The delivery could have been more tactful, sure, but the basis of the message is clear.
"But the basis of the message is clear."
Yep it is, "dressed like (whatever he perceives to be a) slut = asking to be raped"
And therefore, sir Bruiser, this where we agree to disagree, lol.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
I went to Brazil for my 25th bday many moons ago. Americans that visit there frequently gave me advice since it was my first time going. One was to not dress overly flashy or wear any kinds of jewelery (nice watch, earrings, necklace/chains, etc..). People will assume you have a good amount of money and you increase the odds of you being robbed or being stuck up. Me and my homeboy that went, who is 6'6" and about 290lb, can defend ourselves, but why even take a chance of putting ourselves in a dicey situation, so we took the advice. Case in point, one night after the club I saw first hand a stick up kid run up on this dude wearing a nice chain/watch etc…robbed him and the girl with him…almost stabbed him. Would he have gotten robbed even without wearing the flashy stuff…I don't know. Did all people wearing nice stuff get robbed when I was there…nope. I just know I didn't have any issues. *shrugs* …this runs along the line of Pascal's Wager to a certain extent.
I guess in reply to your message. I lived in Russia for 4 months, and I'm by no means a provocative dresser, but I am a light-skinned black woman, which is an anomaly there. And i can't tell you how many times just walking down the street I was accosted. Jeans and a t-shirt, I was asked to work in a brothel by a woman down the street. I wish I could type in Russian do you could feel the weight of the insult, but it goes along the lines of you are foreign here and your skin could gather a high price, plus we know how "frisky" black women are.
That doesn't include the time that I was going to teach at a school and this homeless man chased me for 5 blocks talking about how I should have s*ex with him. And as I screamed for help, the onlookers would laugh, point, and clap. Because there a black woman is only good for one thing…
I don't know how to stress the point that rape, sexual assault, and unwanted advances have nothing to do with looks or clothes or a woman's character; it's a taught method of control and breaking of will… in the same way you can view water-boarding.
My recent post Hear My Call
I hear you. My point is if you were a provactive dresser there you more than likely would have been accosted even more than you were already by wearing plain clothes. It's all relative. Simply speaking energy follows attention. The more attention one draws to themselves the greater probability a negative or positive occurance happens. I'm not saying it's an astronomical amount…it could be very marginal. However, I'm fairly confident the odds do not go down if one draws more attention to themselves. I think the huge disconnect here that it's being assumed what I'm saying is that what a woman wears, her clothes or character is the ONLY reason rape, sexual assault or unwanted advances ever occurs….no far from it. It is just part of the reason in some (not all) cases. The main reasons are the ones you mention and those listed through out the comments.
For the record I think the 95% stats is bulls*it… How did someone come up with that….
Surveys,,, plus you have to remember that stat is on sexual assault not necessarily rape
This is from the Rainn website.
Approximately 2/3 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.1
73% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.1
38% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.1
28% are an intimate.1
7% are a relative.1
http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/s…
It may not be 95% but the majority of rapes are from someone that the victim knows.
I think the disconnect between the two statements come from one being about rape and the other (sexual assualt) being more inclusive.
I've known about SlutWalk for a while because I read a Canadian blog that talked about it some time ago. I haven't embraced it for a number of reasons:
1. I've learned I can't take up every cause. I've selected my causes and this isn't one of them. However, *prevention of sexual assault* will always be near and dear to me, and if I should have the life space to take up another this would probably be it, but probably not within the confines of slut walk.
and
2. I simply don't think, as a womanist, this particular wave of the movement is for me. For reasons already articulated by Kriola and Janie and in CFC's post by Crunktastic: http://crunkfeministcollective.wordpress.com/2011…
I disagree that the goal is not clear for SlutWalk… I think one of the best versions I've read of the ultimate goal of slut walk is this: "to change the theories surrounding sexual assault, asserting that cultural thought needs to change from "don't get raped" to "don't rape."" However, stating a goal =/= a plan with projected tangible outcomes.
But this does make me think about something… do we really need for there to be tangible outcomes for public protest to be successful? How are we defining success? I agree that both SlutWalk and OccupyWallstreet have similar issues when it comes to organization and outcome measures (and this is also why I don't "get" OccupyWallStreet)… but what were the tangible outcomes of the Million Man March? I ask this only because most people say it was successful… and I'm not sure I know of the actual tangible outcomes…
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Yes times 100. One way we can change it is by having an open dialouge about rape. One that does not make the women feel that being raped is somethign that she can control. While she can make steps to take herself out of harms way, its not her fault if someone does something they are not supoose to do. It’s like when your little you leran to look both way and cross on the red light. But if one day you do all of this and a car runs a red light and hits you it’s you , its on the driver not you.
We also need to teach are men/boys that no matter how a woman holds herself that if she tells you no you dont get to choose wheather her no means no, it does’nt matter if she slept with 200 ppl if she tells you no it means no, it does’nt matter if you went on 100 dates with her and she says no, it does’nt matter if you gave her a 500 dollar pair of shoes, no menas no.
For the record, "I think one of the best versions I've read of the ultimate goal of slut walk is this: "to change the theories surrounding sexual assault, asserting that cultural thought needs to change from "don't get raped" to "don't rape." is the best summation I've heard about the movement, period.
I especially like the "needs to change from dont get raped to dont rape" charge.
My recent post Promiscuous Girls and the Men Who Marry Them
Dang, I had a continuation of my original post to elaborate on my observation, but the submit gods won't let me be great!! smh.
LOL I would have liked to read that elaboration, too, lol.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
It is not the responsibility of women to avoid "tempting" men to rape her.
It is the responsibility of men to not rape women.
(and yes we reverse the genders and the argument would still be true)
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
When I first saw this RSS feed on my BB – YeahIsaidIt!! (My Blackberry!!) and read the title "Stumbles on SlutWalk" and then the lady pic with the word "Mine" on her chest the first thing that popped in my head was "Okay like really now, people got waayyy too much time on their hands" I thought it was a sexual freedom march type movement about their vajayjays *shakeshead* But I was wrong.
I've never heard of the SlutWalk until now and I do agree just because a women may choose to dress in a certain way does not mean that she is encouraging or inviting any unwanted advances even sexual assault or rape BUT I also do realize that men are visual creatures and some men can't control their animilistic type urges and women need to take heed and be very mindful of that as well.
I take offense to this as a man. I reject the notion that just because we see some ass or breasts that we will be overcome with an controlling urge to assault and battery women in order to fulfill that urge. I'm sadden that you think that little of us and that it is excusable even if it is true.
Don't tell nobody….but Malik is my new e-boo.
So what do you think goes through the mind of a Perpetrator before he sexually assaults or rape a woman?
You don't think there's some kind of ravenous, uncontrollable, insatiable urge to attack that female?
Goes through their mind? It varies on the person and the situation. I don't think there's some ravenous, uncontrollable, insatiable urge because many rapes are planned out. And many rapists are actually regular day-to-day guys that also have consensual sex with women and get in relationships with women. Men rape for power and control and exhibit that in a variety ways within the act of rape and how they conduct their day to day lives.
Rapists are not some boogiemen. I promise you that. Having been in relationships with women who had happened up to me about their previous experiences and having personally and have had friends who have worked with rape victims the vast majority of them aren't guys you could walk down the street and tell they are rapists. Nor do a lot of them even believed they actually raped women.
Malik is on it today.
My recent post I guess I got my swagger back…
"I also do realize that men are visual creatures and some men can't control their animilistic type urges and women need to take heed and be very mindful of that as well. "
HUH?!? WTF?!
No.
Just, no.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
I don't see that statement as being too far-fetched to a certain degree. I read Dan Ariely's book, "Predictably Irrational" and he discusses emotion and decision-making. Here's a brief synopsis on what was tested and the results:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictably_Irration…
Geez, I introduce a scientific experiment performed by credible sources to validate a point and people just hit me with the thumbs down? Lol….some of yall must not like science…Must be republicans, lol!
"BUT I also do realize that men are visual creatures and some men can't control their animilistic type urges and women need to take heed and be very mindful of that as well."
they are human beings. homosapiens. our mental cognition is what distinguishes us from the rest of the animal kingdom. if men can't control their urges–or better yet, control how they RESPOND AND REACT to them– they are NOT men.
yea, I said it.
My recent post I guess I got my swagger back…
And I heart you for it.
My recent post Mamas, Bellies, & Babies
I'm not offended by your comment and it makes sense. There's a reason they don't allow women to serve on submarines. Under water with a crew full of men on a ship that may not re-surface for months on end…
It's part of the self-control aspects and there are some really intense hormones that go on in the male body. We can all claim to have mastered it, but reality is not everyone has.
"BUT I also do realize that men are visual creatures and some men can't control their animilistic type urges and women need to take heed and be very mindful of that as well."
This is actually something I spent some time arguing against recently. In my country, there is a big culture of blaming the victim, and men are absolved of a great deal of things, down to sexual assault leading to murder. I just argued for proceeding with caution, which is fine. However, I am loathe to imply that the fool who viciously takes that which does not belong to him was at a loss to control his impulses. What that means, essentially, is that it's not his fault. Barring severe mental illness, please believe that every bit of that is, in fact, his fault. There are certain things that women can do to lessen the likelihood that he will focus his attention on her, but he alone is responsible for the decision to force himself on the victim, prospective or actual.
First of all, I'ma need ole fishbelly with the sign to put a shirt on. Nothing to do with rape, everything to do with an assault on my vision.
Secondly, I second Hugh Jazz's comment upthread, but I'd change it a bit. As long as disturbed men feel POWERLESS, rape will never go away. Rape is about power, not attraction. But why not add it to the list of every other thing? Murder, war, theft, deceit, etc. We are humans, we are inherently flawed. There is no "safe zone" or "safe time" or "safe outfit".
Most importantly, I don't see how a SlutWalk is going to improve my life or the lives of other women of color. Or really even white women. Looks more like young privileged women flexing their muscle and drawing attention to themselves. *shrug*
"Rape is about power, not attraction….There is no "safe zone" or "safe time" or "safe outfit". "
Say it again.
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Rape is about power, not attraction —-> this right here
What you wear has nothing to do with you getting raped. It might get you some unwanted stairs or cat calls, maybe some unwanted (booty grab at the club) but's I dont think its the yellow brick road to someone trying to rape you.
Or really even white women. Looks more like young privileged women flexing their muscle and drawing attention to themselves. *shrug* —-> 100 agree
No real commenttary from me, I think they have a right to express themselves, I think their message could be a little clearer though.
Great Current Events piece Wiz
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While slutwalk has some faults I agree with the movement. We had a similar incident at my University where a woman was raped and the police sent out a reminder about how women can prevent this from happening. Women of all races were upset because the first email that should have been sent out IMO should have been geared towards men and remembering to think about your actions and stop before you assault someone. The vast majority of rapes are by someone the victim knows. A friend, classmate etc as was this case. So what you wear shouldn't be an issue yet that is one of the first things they tried to advise on. The fact that rapist know their victims means there is a strong possibility to reach men by making them think about how they treat and think about the women they know. I think the walks got labeled as focusing on what women wear but the overall message is one that people have been saying for years. Why is it that we send the message "Don't get raped" instead of "Don't rape"? I'm glad it spread to countries like South Africa where 1 in 4 men has sexually assaulted someone and rarely do they get prosecuted.
In terms of the letter on behalf of Black women, I read it a few weeks ago and it annoyed me. I was just trying to understand when they polled Black women to find out what they thought. I just felt like people were speaking for me. If you take out the drunkeness or some of the disorganization being described I am all for the walks and so were many of my Black girlfriends. We just didn't find out about the date in NYC soon enough to go. But that is the downfall of the "Black Voice", sometimes you don't agree with it but they are still speaking on your behalf anyway.
ALL OF THIS! Every last sentence!!!
I was going to write this. You just beat me to it.
while i agree that no matter what a woman wears it does not warrant sexual assault or rape. that being said i think these walks are a joke. slut walk? really? you couldn't come up with a better name? you couldn't think of a different avenue to champion the fight against sexual assault? i can't take women like the one's pictured seriously.
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Totally agree! I don't believe in victim mentality. Their platform is not solution oriented. Looks like a carnival.
Never heard of the movement before today, though Essence.com did cover the NYC walk http://www.essence.com/2011/10/06/real-talk-is-dr…
I know about Take Back the Night, which in which I participate every year. I think it's more heart-wrenching and less flashy though, because real rape survivors tell/relive their experience at the end to the audience.
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Another note I'd like to add is that rape is more of a terror tactic than it is a means of gratification. All over the world, rape is used as a way to gain information, bind captors, assert mental control over a victim. I think one of the things explored multiple times on this site and in general is the intimacy of relations. And when relations are forced or unwanted the idea of intimate and personal becomes distorted. Impulses, such as rape, are in actually a disease which at the root is a loss of power by the predator in some point in their life, so they use force to recapture their control.
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@Malik
sorry…
*your*
I'm going to need for someone to post any type of reputable source that there is even a casual correlation between a woman's dress and whether or not a rapist wants to rape her.
What does the "n*gger" sign say? I'm confused.
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"Women Are the N****r of the World" It's from a song by Yoko Ono and John Lennon.
Telling women how to stay safe from rape is just like telling people how to not get robbed. We don’t go and tell the thieves don’t rob, we tell the victim to be more careful and aware. We do this because other than lock them up (if the police catch them) we can’t control their actions immediately.
The first step to changing rape is changing the way society views women and our right to our own body. It’s our body and we do what we please with it. What we choose to do with it does not give a man the right to rape us. We need to teach are boys that sex is not owed to them; it is not something they take but something that is given to them by a woman, only if she says’s yes.
Now ladies we can’t take everyman in the world at one time and make sure he understands this notion. So in the mean time while we try to spread the message be aware of the people around you. In some cases you can’t control the situations but in the situations where you can remove yourself before it gets crazy do it.
I agree Smilez – I think this is an issue that needs to be addressed on both ends to help keep women safe.
cosign. I agree that women need to stay safe and think carefully about choices we make. But when a women is assaulted and the first thing people say is "well why was she over there anyway" thats a problem. And many rapist can avoid charges by just making the victim look like a slut in court
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and usually the 'some' have some sort of undiagnosed/untreated mental/emotional issues going on
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Actually very few rapists have been reported to have any type of mental illness. At least no different (percentage wise) than the general population.
Your source being? I refuse to believe that a normal, healthy male just ups and decides that raping someone/people is the way to deal with whatever's going on with him; yeah he may not be stark raving mad, but the whole premise of getting satisfaction from overpowering/forcefully taking something from someone suggests there are infact some unresolved psychological/mental/emotional issues. There are many psychopaths walking around like normal human beings.
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Interesting discussion today. I think I land in the middle…
I think rapists are completely at fault for their choices and should be punished to the fullest extent of the law…same with molesters.
HOWEVER, since we don't live in an ideal society, I think its important to arm yourself with information and tactics that can limit the possibility for things like this to happen. I don't worry about myself being raped as much as I am a dang beast about protecting my precious sons. I rarely let church members escort my sons to the bathroom. My sons come to the ladies room with me. No, my sons can't stay the night (few exceptions to this). And no matter what anyone tells you, Mommy is indestructable! If they tell you they'll hurt me, they're lying! Tell Mommy so Mommy can…do "things" that will cause some lawyer to have to work very hard to get her out of jail, lol.
That's right – Palin ain't the only Mama Bear out in these streets!
"HOWEVER, since we don't live in an ideal society, I think its important to arm yourself with information and tactics that can limit the possibility for things like this to happen."
This!!! This is all I am trying to say in a nutshell. Man, I don't understand what all the hubub spewed toward myself and Hugh was all about *shrugs* lol.
Very interesting discussion today.
Re: this debate about blaming women. A couple of years ago, I decided that I didn't want to be perceived a certain way, or to give men the impression that they can approach me any which way they desired – particularly when out at a club. I'm actually pretty big on impression management. I'm not particularly forgiving or flippant towards idiots who do cross a certain line, but I am aware that some of them are apt to make certain assumptions based on the way I act and dress. I have never flirted indiscriminately, but in addition to that, I do not wear clothes that are less than a certain length, or that expose too much of my barely existent cleavage. In my everyday life, I also dress a certain way, and people respond to me accordingly (and I'm not just talking about things on a sexual level). I don't don potato bags, and I do wear tight fitting clothes, but I do keep a lid on things and carry myself in a certain manner. The key here is being aware of all the factors that come into play where human interactions are concerned, and taking them into account when making your decisions. In an ideal world, what I wear would not matter. In the world we live in, it does. Again, not just where things of a sexual nature are concerned. I will not excuse the rapist and would not blame the victim, but I would caution her or any other women against displaying any behaviours or dressing in a way that could possibly put her in harm's way if she will not have sufficient protection about her on any given day. If you're going to be with a group of friends, do as you please (within reason; if all of you are drunk out of your mind, then sorry, numbers don't mean a thing). If you're going to be walking alone, you may want to attract less of the wrong attention to yourself. Let's face it, there are idiots out there to whom these debates we're having are absolutely meaningless. The men that women are currently arguing with are not likely perpetrators.
I have not been brainwashed. I'm just aware of the society in which I live, and fighting for the right to go out 3/4 naked and sleeping with as many men as I can count is not high on my list of priorities. Therefore, I work within observable parameters which also include my personal values, some of which I was brought up with. I don't impose my views on others, but I'm not shy about my stance, either.
This is a very cynical way of thinking about things. It's like every man you encounter is a possible rapist. I guess I like to give men more credit than that, I like to believe that my male friends would never assault someone, whether they were half-naked or not. You're saying that may very well be the case so you should never let yourself get too comfortable, cause if you do get assaulted it probably has something to do with the way you act. That's what I got from your comment anyway. I wonder, how do you explain the cases where a woman walking her dog gets raped? She's not wearing anything even resembling sexy. Is she still to blame? Should she have walked her dog somewhere else? Is it always the victim's fault, in one way or the other? You say you don't blame the victim, yet you think that you can control rapists with the way you dress. I don't share your belief.
I was clear in stating that my decisions regarding the way I dress had more to do with general impressions and the way that people respond to me. The point was that the way one dresses has observable effects, so it makes no sense to argue otherwise. I don't go around thinking that I'm just two inches of a skirt away from being raped. I did not make any claims about controlling rapists. I said if you are going to be in a precarious situation, you lessen your chances of being attacked by not attracting a certain kind of attention. Certain things act as a trigger. The woman walking alone may, in and of itself, be enough to get the rapist's attention, but her state of undress can be an added motivator.
"You're saying that may very well be the case so you should never let yourself get too comfortable, cause if you do get assaulted it probably has something to do with the way you act."
Simply put, no.
Hey SingleBlackMale, I am the woman in the first picture. I (obviously) heard about the SlutWalk through Facebook, and yes! I am black!! I think the race thing is besides the point, though.
However, I did tell the reporter that interviewed me that day that although I would never normally dress like that (it's not my style, personally), just because someone does dress sexy doesn't mean they are "asking" to be raped. There was a woman at the walk who was FULLY DRESSED (keep in mind it was chilly that day) carrying a sign that said "I was wearing more than this and I STILL got raped."
A rapist doesn't care what someone is wearing. A rapist just wants control and the power to take someone's dignity away.
I do agree with being aware of your surroundings. I wouldn't dare walk around late at night, because a majority of rapes do occur in the wee hours, although it is enitrely possible to get raped at 9 in the morning on a Tuesday or something.
A sincere thanks from myself and on behalf of the team here at SingleBlackMale.org for stopping by and commenting. Speaking for self, I actually learned a lot today about the movement and there was some great discussion here in the comments and on other sites.
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I guess my biggest issue is that people dont seem to get the bigger picture. Rape and sexual assault is a huge problem. It really effects us all, directly or indirectly. To me it's just not about the word slut at all. It's about the negative acts of aggression/violence.
Although I'm well aware that traditional feminist movements don't include women of color, I wouldn't toss this walk in that box. This issue effects us all, whether we want to cover that fact up with rhetoric or not.
I'm also disheartened that people would call it stupid and/or pointless. Although you may not agree with a movement or its course of action, thats just not ok. At the end of the day these women are bringing awareness to a problem. In a time when there is very little action being taken at all for ANY cause, I think anyone who takes a stand should be commended, not chastised. All the judgement on these women, who we think they are, and what we think their motives might be (attention, among other things) really needs to stop. Fear of judgment is a huge factor in why rape is undereported in the first place. We could all stand to think about that a bit…
Yes I knew about it before today, I actually remember the first situation that arrised around it in Canada. It was more than just the police officer that launched that first slut walk. There was a woman who'd gone out clubbing, wearing a tube top and short skirt. She got intoxicated and some guy she'd had previous contact with took advantage of the situation when they left the club and went to the woods to go "skinny dipping" with the womans friends. The courts sided with him saying he was obviously too stupid to realize she wasn't interested, and that she'd given all indications through dress and provocative behavior that they intended to have sex. Then maybe 2 or 3 days after the ruling came down, the police officer popped off at the mouth about "dressing like a slut". It was the community having gone through enough in a short time and women feeling like rape was our faults.
The real bottom line is that you can do things to prevent rape, and the officer was talking from a practical perspective albeit a bit loose in the tongue but there's a MAJOR amount of victim shaming that goes on in our culture. I live in Philadelphia and I don't dress provocatively unless I'm with my guy. I don't go out at night alone. I rarely get drunk, whether it be with people I know or people I don't. I can be the most careful person in the world and still get raped. Most rapes happen and the victim knows her attacker. People say "You flirted with him, you must have liked him" or "You have previous sexual history, so he must have just been confused". The rules are simple when I say NO, you fucking stop. Anything else unless we have agreed on is specifically counts as rape. I don't care how many times we've fucked before or what you thought you were getting out of me, every time we hook up requires my consent. I have been in the middle of a sexual act with someone and needed to stop, and the guy has given me my space so I don't want to hear that "men struggle against their desires". We need to stop giving these rapists passes and thinking they're so damn confused about how things work.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. Most men are NOT rapists, nor would they be under any circumstances. If you look at South Africa, where rape is traditionally not a big thing, one in four men are rapists. So even under the most extreme approval for a heinous act you can think of, 75% of men would never rape someone. That must say something about the 25% who do. And that percentage is way lower in societies where rape is considered evil. That's why a large number of the men who do rape say "it wasn't rape, she wanted it too", because it would probably be too much for them to admit they actually did rape someone. That's where the education and empathy and teaching our kids right from wrong comes to play. Using those tools we can get that 25% down to 2% of disturbed individuals. And one step towards that goal would be to show that 1) rape is wrong and the punishment for it is huge and 2) rape is never the victim's fault. If you're not sure that she's saying yes, if she's too intoxicated, don't do it. Men need to have their moral backbone too.
Most women are raped by someone they know.
Most rapist don't rape women who look or dress like Hookers
Rape is not aways about Power,sometime it just some nasty ass man out to get some.
Ugly women get raped also…hard to beleive,but its true.
Some women have dreams of getting rape, but not by the nigga that did it
I can go on and on, and so can you…about RAPE.
the men in prison that get Raped… was it that nice, freshly prison jump suit they had on?
Put a fat stake in front of a hungry dog…and tell him to look at it, but don't eat it…