As children, we were taught about not talking to strangers and inappropriate touching from adults; not about rape and sexual assault. Despite that, I canāt ever remember growing up in an environment that encouraged or condoned rape. Not once, not never, not even for a few moments do I remember being in an environment that fostered or was conducive to rape. I should add that I donāt subscribe to the thought that just because nobody encouraged or condoned rape, I was done a disservice because no one explicitly taught me, as a boy, about rape. In fact, rape isnāt something that most little boys and girls are aware of until they reach pre-pubescence. Heck, most young children donāt even know the differences between heterosexuality and homosexuality.
As it pertains to the subject, a few things stood out to me about my childhood all the way up to adulthood:
- I was always thrown off a little about girls who were called āfreaksā in grade school. I thought something must be off with them. Either they were having issues outside of school or were a little slower than the rest of us and people took advantage of that.
- I played sports throughout high school. There was one story about a girl who performed oral sex on several players of the team in the locker room after practice. After I heard that story, I looked at that girl differently, but I (and many others) never respected those guys again.
- Guys who would talk about dating girls who were much younger than them, or guys who would have weird strategies for hooking up with girls were always called, āChester-ass dudes.ā Shout out to Dana Dane.
- My freshman year we used to throw parties in our dorm rooms. Nobody liked partying with people they didnāt know but after everyone got familiar we would lower or turn off the lights. One of the guys who was there locked the door ā the music stopped, the lights came back on, and he got kicked out. What the hell was he thinking?
- I pledged, I became a āfrat boyā and despite all the temptations that come along with a groupthink breeding ground, I never understood the type of guy who would run a train on a girl. I also had a strict policy about sleeping with women who were intoxicated ā if she had a look like she wasnāt going to remember any of this tomorrow, I passed. And when we had punch, if I hadnāt been around it all night or knew that another one of my brothers was around it all night, we told people to stop drinking it and made a new batch.
I never went to a class to learn any of that. Thatās how I was brought up, thatās the type of person that my parents raised, those were the type of people that I surrounded myself with. Thatās how I rolled. Thatās why I find the notion that, āwe need to teach men not to rapeāā¦ offensive. Itās not because I feel that we need to focus on what women can do to prevent being raped. Thatās not it at all. Itās because the concept was juxtaposed against āblaming women,ā meaning that somehow it was the manās fault. I was offended because I canāt understand why assigning blame is going to help us get anywhere.
Here is whatās also troubling about the notion that we need to teach young Black boys ānot to rapeā; youāre inserting in the mind of a young Black boy that he is a potential rapist. Itās been a long time since weāve taught Black boys ānotā to be drug dealers, murderers, thieves, etc. Let me speak for young Black boys, since I used to be one. We do not like the notion that we are predisposed to commit crimes. We donāt like it when society looks at us as potential criminals. We donāt like when you tell us to look to our right and look to our left because one of us will not be there when we graduate high school. We donāt like when you tell us that 1 out of every 3 of us will end up in jail. Weāre not dumb, we know math, we know that you basically just said, the guy to my left will be dead, and the one to my right will be in jail. I canāt think of any other way to say this but, āThat shit aināt cool.ā
And if thatās not what you meant, thatās how it feels.
We know the numbers; 1 in 4 Black women will be a victim of rape or attempted rape. However, that does not translate into 1 in every 4 Black men will rape or attempt to rape a woman. If someone has those statistics, please feel free to share them in the comments section. Itās not fair to single out Black boys, just like it wouldnāt be fair to count off Black girls by fours and tell them theyāre probably going to be raped.
Yeah, you guessed itā¦ generalizations generally suck.
Despite the ill effects sending that message would have on Black boys, letās discuss how the verbiage, āwe need to teach men not to rapeā is offensive to people like myself and organizations likeā¦ Men Can Stop Rape. Itās offensive because the verbiage is condescending in nature. It speaks as though there is an unfulfilled gap ā as if there is nothing like it in place. Why didnāt the message read, āWe need more organizations that are teaching men not to rapeā or āWe need more organizations whose audience is not comprised of only women, but men tooā? Itās the same exact message, but it lacks the condescending nature.
(I should mention that in the article Iām referencing here, there are mentions of male organizations that are working to change the audience from women to men. I should also mention that they only scored two sentences in the entire article.)
I hate when people complain about something and donāt propose a solution.
When I was in college, in addition to being in a fraternity which some believe breeds rapists, I also worked with the R.A.P.E. Center at my school. I really enjoyed my work there and I thought it was cool to bring light to something that gets swept under the rug at most colleges and universities across the country. I had an idea, a proposed solution, and I want to share that with you. Itās broken down into three areas:
- People who tell women to not get raped are idiots, mute their channel. There is no need for a conversation about āhow not to get rapedā but there is room for a conversation around safety awareness. Man or woman, be aware of your surroundings, if youāre out at night avoid traveling alone, be aware of where your local authorities are, and if a situation doesnāt feel right, never hesitate to let someone know. Thatās not rape prevention, thatās awareness that both sexes need to know.
- āIf you see something, say something.ā As worried as I am about the mental capacity of someone who sexually assaults or rapes a person, Iām just as concerned about the mental capacity of someone who sees someone passed out or being sexually assaulted and does nothing to help. Whoās to say she didnāt just have a heart attack, a stroke, or any other injury that could cause one to fall unconscious?
- Face to face understanding that rape is not a conversation about a subject area, itās a conversation about people. I was taught that guns were bad; they killed people or damaged lives forever. I thought I understood the lesson very well, but it wasnāt until the first time I shot a gun when I understood why guns were bad. You canāt hope to teach people to prevent gun violence by keeping the gun and the person separate ā and I donāt think you can teach men about rape and keep the women separate. Women (or men) arenāt a subject area; theyāre human beings like everyone else. We should create an environment that enables young men and women to see each other when theyāre discussing this topic. Itās much more powerful to see the look on each otherās face when faced with these topics, rather than reading about it in a book or by an instructor. The best result is going to come from a collaborative learning environment that doesnāt allow people to reduce the severity of the actions into subject matter.
Iām sure the author means well, or has a reason for why she feels the way she does. Iām not going to say that Iām not still annoyed or frustrated about the conversation either. I just hope that when people read this and read that, they see that there is a need for middle ground. A conversation that doesnāt imply that men are inferior or āshiftsā blame, as if there was a reason for assigning blame. At the focal point of that conversation we have to make sure itās the victims we focus on and/or stopping rape perpetrators altogether. Iām hoping that we understand itās not about who is right or wrong because when we find the answer, no one is going to ask us to show our work.
![[Audio] Women Paying for Dates, Selfie Gate, Wealth Stats, and More](https://www.singleblackmale.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/selfie-gate.jpeg)
i look at it like thisā¦
as much as you think you are a stand up dude, know you are a stand up dude, that female across from youā¦doesnt know that. for all you know, the dude before youā¦who 'was a stand up dude/good guy' tried something, or did something..that shook her to the core.
so if, for her benefit, for her safety, she has to initially regard me with fear? like i'm the enemy? So be it. I'm sorry it's come to that, and yes, you may not run with folks like that, and *I* may not roll with folks like that, but there are those, that unfortunately don't know better. as someone on my timeline said:
"I don't expect white people to stop looking at me as a criminal so I guess I shouldn't expect women to either."
I think in this circumstance we've fallen victim to allowing something that we hated when it was done to us. We hated racial profiling, but we're willing to allow gender profiling. That's not right in my book. We can't pick and choose when we're going to stand up for our civil liberties. If we begin to make civil liberties options, we lose the ability to uphold them. If racial profiling is wrong, then so is gender profiling.
but the difference is, i can't sue someone for clutching their purse and walking quicker just because i'm near, whether that's a white male, white female, or black female. i think that hatred of racial profiling, is when it's done by law enforcement to restrict my personal freedom to move as i choose, and to hem me up on the corner just cuz i'm a black male. there is no restriction of my civil liberties if a black female crosses the street because i'm walking towards her. if more females (white and black) and white males see as as criminals and harassers off jump, well, that's unfortunate, but it's within their rights, and it is what it is.
@HHH Women have to get over themselves.
Associate themselves with men who protect them.
Also, learn how to shoot a gun & be able to defend one self.
May not stop every crime that happens to her, but she she lower the probability
The world that IS vs. the world we are striving for.
I have to agree here. I first read about this concept of 'teaching men not to rape' last week on another blog site. I find the notion rather disgusting and intentionally misguided. Professional victimization has achieved new heights and has managed to find a violin big enough for Paul Bunyan to play.
I took a gander at the link you provided to the article, and I honestly couldn't get through it. Its absurdity and ridiculousness was unpalatable. Before i go any further, let me say this:
Rape is wrong. That should go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. However, unfortunately rape (much like any other crime) will never be exterminated. That isn't to say it should go unchallenged, however teaching men not to rape is as silly a concept there is. Its just as silly as teaching women not to get raped, or not to be lascivious, or teaching white people not to be racist. Same coin, different sides. Equally as dumb.
But really thoughā¦is all this REALLY about rape? Or is this being used as a platform for something else? Despite statistically violent crimes (incl rape) being down considerably in recent times, there is rape hysteria taking place as if there is a rape boom in our social economy. Now every man is a BoogeyRapeMan waiting to jump out of his skin and rape all the helpless wimmenz because all wimmenz are perpetual victims to the male inherent rape tendencies.
Are these individuals subscribing to this school of though not understanding how this is extremely insulting not only to men in general but to women and more importantly the true victims of rape? And this goes without saying, but I'ma say it anyway: women do not have a monopoly on being victims of rape. This is not about social equality. This is no more than propaganda, scare tactics, and demonization that is undermining the intelligence of the general public as serves to push an agenda that ultimately benefits no one in the end. Not even the radical pen*s envying misandrists masquerading as feminists who are extremely determined on exploiting pain for their own gain will benefit from the estrogen ruled world they envision.
The notion of Teaching Men Not To Rape is not about rape. It is not about rape victims. It is a red herring disguised as compassion. It is negligence dressed in the garments women's rights. It is an attack on the psyche and self esteem of young boys and young girls. By assigning victim and victimizer roles to particular sex, you are tainting the perceptions children have of themselves and each other with this false yet highly suggestive and dangerous notion. And this is supposedly 'combatting' rape by way of damaging the social development of children, particularly young males? It is the equivalent of saying males possess a dormant rape gene that needs to be suppressed and controlled. What next? castration of all male children born to ensure rape never occurs again?
Teaching awareness is a more viable solution. Awareness to both men and women without painting either as a victim or perpetrator of deviancy, because rape, like any other affliction, disease, or social shortcoming, is genderless.
In the end, Men are not killers and Women are not wh0res. Women are not liars, nor are men thieves. Killers are killers. Wh0res are wh0res. And rapists are rapists.
Mr. SoBo
OpinionatedMale.com
My recent post Shacking Up: What It Really Means When A Man Is Considering Moving In With You
@Mr Sobo
Round of applause.
Get that man a big booty h*e.
The "teach men not to rape" campaign should be renamed the "always be respectful of people" campaign. I don't feel like looking up sources (sorry, lol), but we have to keep in mind most rape is about power and authority. It's also a historically common military offense strategy.
I always cringe when I hear people say, "I feel no obligation to respect __________ because they don't respect themselves." when in reality even disrespecting a dead body will land you in jail in many/most states. As a resident advisor in college I had several opportunities to take advantage of drunks by cleaning their wallets, but I didn't. Even if I was disgusted by what they did to get in suchā¦compromising positions, they're still a human being with a family, friends, ectā¦and I'm a human being who refuses to treat anyone any ol' kinda way because I feel entitled to. Like really, who am I?!
On a side note, even if we aren't aware of specifically teaching men to rape, I'm guessing the campaign gets into rape culture in general as well. Some things may not seem all that violent or negative, but constantly making something the norm can really affect a person. I read a blog post not too long ago about a woman who refuses to say anything negative about her husband anymore, even if jokingly with friends. She found that keeping negativity out of her mouth has really increased her respect for himāand he probably doesn't even know what's causing the change.
At the same time, crude jokes about the opposite sex, for example can contribute to rape culture in that it may make a person comfortable with disrespecting a person in some way. Add all the other things they may hear or see on a regular basis, and we can see how things can head downhill after that. Are we *really* okay with "don't drop the soap" prison jokes geared toward men? Especially knowing many of our black and brown brothers are thrown into the system unfairly? What about [insert artist name here]'s new song putting down women?
I'm down with renaming the campaign. I think one of the things I brought out in my post today was that if you renamed it, you could have the same results without being offensive. I'm not sure that got through to everyone who read the article, but it's there.
Everything that you know to be acceptable and unacceptable behavior is something that you learned. It is something that you were taught. Rape Culture, as it has been defined, is steeped in our understanding that we live in a patriarchal society, which is indeed a fact. Patriarchy by definition puts men in a position of power and women in a position of vulnerability. If rape is indeed a crime of power, juxtaposing men with rape is indeed a correct correlation.
There is nothing wrong with teaching men not to rape because society in a variety of ways have taught men and women that violence against women is justifiable in several circumstances.Remember what the definition of culture isā¦..it is in fact beliefs, customs that are learned and accepted by a group of people.
I couldn't care less if men are offended, especially black men. Black men are always the victim. They never want to be called out on their "stuff" while crimes committed against black women by black men aren't constantly being overlooked,never told, don't receive any press. No one is speaking out on behalf of black women, no one has our back, especially not black men.
As far as I know, only men believe that what a person does with his or her body dictates how a person should be treated. Most men/boys/whatever "I know" believe that if they perceive a woman to be a hoe, which by the way is a largely gender specific term, and supports the idea that sex is "gender"alized, they can treat them as if they are not even human and this behavior is completely justifiable. Do i even need to mention that this thinking was often paralleled with sexual deviant behavior with each woman that they identified to be a hoe?
Patriarchy teaches Rape culture. It has to be unlearned.
+100000. "As far as I know, only men believe that what a person does with his or her body dictates how a person should be treated. "
Ironically this whole response seems to fly in the face of the entire article. Instead of focusing on the fact rape is a problem and how can we solve it you'd rather women be the victim and men be the villain. So I guess 1) Did you read the part discussing respect? I'm guessing not since you appear to have the Rick James "F*ck yo' couch" approach. And 2) Do you think misandry is a viable solution to fight patriarchy? If you want any problem solved you have to start with a conversation
But WOMEN are victims of rape. If you are raped you are a victim of that crime. It's almost seems like we want to keep the "how not to get raped approached" instead of teaching a party that has not been talk to how their actions have rippling affects. Again we know all men don't rape, but for the ones that arenāt aware of the gray area, for the one's who might understand that "No means No" but doesnāt understand that Yes is the only response that grants you access to sex.
Again while Dr.J himself practices respectful behavior he was in the presence of groups of men who didnāt know any better. Thatās what who the campaign is trying to influence. Also why when we ask men to take some responsibility or notice there is always this uproar. YES we need to teach men more that just No Means NO
Why is there uproar? That's the point of the post. It's not the what, it's the how. Meaning, if you have something to say and phrase it as "YOU need to do this in order for XYZ" chances are the very person/people you're addressing will automatically tune you out. Now not only has the original problem not been discussed, but no one will want to hear what you have to say regardless of its quality.
Ultimately I hear and agree with what you're saying. But the reason I'm talking about the subject vs. the tone relates to the question I posed to MsKim after her response was this: Is your purpose to address rape and rape culture, or to have finger pointed at men? Fighting with fire with fire has never been as effective as water.
I was using the examples of how some men think to show an example of rape cultureā¦it wasn't intended to come off as misandry. since we do live in a patriarchal society and rape is still primarily committed by men, that's the best i can do for now.
Nonsense. The entire premise of your position is severely flawed. Firstly, we do not live in a rape culture. One rape is too many, yes, but this rape hysteria must cease now. Secondly, in what way and in these times specifically, has society taught men and women that violence against women is okay? The penalties of such acts (even just an accusation) is severe. Not sure what race has to do with rape, but since you brought it up: Particularly concerning black men the judicial system is all too happy to lock them away for even as much as sneezing near a woman, so I'm not sure what society you are referring to where the former occurs.
What you deem as society teaching and condoning violence against women is really a matter of those women who have been victimized choosing to live in silence. That is not to be confused with society turning a blind eye to these occurrences, but no one can do anything if one doesn't say anything. If a story is never told, no one will ever listen.
And on the contrary, black men are indeed the victims of a lot of things, but it is considered business as usual. Black men are the most demonized and villainized and socially witch hunted racial group on the planet. The american prison system is overflowing with black men who were 'not called out on their stuff as their crimes (petty or otherwise or none at all) were overlooked'. This is the lack of accountability you speak of? Its only recently that american society (and some other cultures) has turned their focus to include black women into this villainous category as well. And given your vitriol regarding black men despite this conversation having nothing to do with race, you give credence to their idiocy.
So according to you the ills of society and our sub culture lay at the feet of men (black men). And your sense of accountability is where? Thats right, because according to the philosophy of your argument, since this is a patriarchal society, you have none. Men are at fault for everything. Why is this not surprising, as I've never heard that theme before. -_-
Where is the call to teach people not to be pedophiles when sexual crimes and child rape of BOTH sexes occur regularly by BOTH sexes? Where is the class for that?
Where is the call to teach female teachers not to have sexual relationships with their underage students and give birth to children of children? Where is the class for that?
When and where are those classes going to be held and will you and your cohort of like minded folk be in attendance so we can make this world a better place?
Beyond the sheer absurdity of such aforementioned notions and 'patriarchy teaches rape culture', this is simply yet another opportunistic anti-male rally. In your case, anti-black male.
Rape is wrong. Violence against women is wrong. Being a true deadbeat father is wrong. But penalizing an entire half of the population for what but a few do is asinine and breeds entitlement for the other half which is more socially damaging. Lets teach rapists not to rape. I'll get behind that.
Mr. SoBo
OpinionatedMale.com
My recent post 10 Things Every Mother Should Teach Their Daughters
Well, I was going to go the "Not point the finger back" route, but I do 100% agree. When the conversation shifts from some X do Y to *all* X do, it's time to start over.
I challenge first how much you know about rape. How knowledgeable you are about Rape culture in general! I suggest that you read Longing to Tell by Tricia Rose as this book will give you great insight into the rape culture that you so recklessly claim doesn't exist.
Second,I only made this argument racial because the author of this post did,
Third, I never once said that women were free of blame and that men were responsible for everything. You are placing all kinds of things in my post that i'snt even there so i will tell you what my professor always told us, SHOW ME IN THE TEXT where I made the comments you claim i did.
Thirdly,i have heard countless times of the plight of the black man.As a matter of fact, I studied it a lot in college as an African American Studies major. What i can tell you is that the black woman's plight is always missing from the discussion!
I do not know anything about what you proclaim to be rape hysteria, its not like rape is talked about everyday. This discussion was prompted by a recent case, whats hysterical about that?
Teaching rapists not to rape is reactive and means that a person has already become the victim of rape.Lets at least agree to be proactive?
I agree with being proactive. My original point, is teaching respect. That should be taught regardless gender, you respect people (both their person and their belongings). Many crimes, not just rape, when you dissect them down to their basest level are due to a lack of respect. Putting your own needs or wants above someone else's right to be, is disrespectful.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find anyone defend rape. Hell, even the some of the trolls fall back on that. And no one denies there is a "rape culture" ā though I don't believe there's a true consensus as to everything that is and isn't included in it ā and victim blaming isn't reserved to only those who have been raped.
The problem with crime is that we can't label who is and isn't responsible, because that's a burden we all bear. It's not patriarchal to say that, it's just a fact. Being proactive doesn't rely on the sex of the person proposing the solution, nor should it be the responsibility of one or the other. If it takes a village to raise a child, then the same lessons should be taught to each child regardless of gender.
in order to get to the respect all lesson we have to tecah each sex how their disresepcting the other. A lot of young boys and men don't know what is considered rape,other than jumping out of the bushing, hitting a girl on the head and chexing her. They need to learn the gray area. Many group are tecahing women the gray area as well. Even on here we talk about taking different aporaches to differnt groups of ppl. We are taking the tough love apporach with men.
1) Wherever there is "tough love", there's resistance and/or backlash.
2) You've mentioned "the gray area" in several comments. Care to expound on what you mean by this?
Gray: Is the middle sections where some consider an action rape while others are not sure weather the action is rape. EX: lots of ppl ask is it rape if the man and woman are both drunk and have chex. We know if the man was sober and the woman wasnāt (think of the last rape chase with the football players) we would consider it rape
Gray area also includes the fact that silence does NOT equal consent along with no meaning STOP.
So if a guy asks a girl if she wants to engage in sloppy toppy or chex and she doesn't answer for various reasons, yet you're still pursuing it, you are indeed raping her. And that's something both men and women don't know.
@mskim
Men need to be taught not to rape because we live in a rape culture is not hysteria? Although āHide yo kids, hide yo wife, and hide yo husbands too, cause they rapinā errybody out hurrā was a hot youtube sensation two years ago, sadly it was an inaccurate portrayal of life. Errybody aint gettin raped out hurr. And lets not speak on the misandry laden implications of your initial comment that prompted my response.
However thank you for the reading recommendation, but be careful whoās advice you buy. Besides, since when does one need to read someoneās agenda driven perspective to understand that rape is reprehensible? Examining patriarchy as examples of its social order are deconstructed to point to the existence and perpetuation of a rape culture is reaching to say the least. If any of this were indeed soundly accurate, the vast majority of men would be rapists. The reality is that the vast majority of men ARE NOT. Ā So where is the existence of this rampant rape culture you speak of? Not here in the good ole U.S. of A, thats for sure.
Now, is there a pecking order in place? Yes. Ā However a social hierarchy between men and women does not equate to the general acceptance and propagation of rape. Our society is living breathing proof of this. So lets not attempt to confuse theory and myth with the realities of the modern world.Ā
Now if the social structure is your true gripe, then lets have a meaningful discussion about that. But not under the false pretext of rape to air your grievances because of where you so happen to fall within that social order. Nice try.
Im more interested in discussing meaningful solutions and social awareness to the realities that rapists (like murderers, sociopaths and thieves) do exist & by teaching men not to kill, steal and rape as if its some genetic predisposition is not a viable solution.
You just make overarching assumptions and accusations.Tricia Rose's book doesn't offer adviceā¦.its a collection of life stories of black women riddled with various forms of sexual abuse.
Also, check your understanding of rape culture. You can read ShanelleG's comment near the bottom for assistance.
āYou just make overarching assumptionsā¦Tricia Roseās book doesnāt offer adviceā¦ā
Excellent! In this instance I am guilty as charged. I sure did base my assumption on the way you framed your argument in relation to the book. Good call. But Iām at work. No time to google books, authors and the like right now. That aside, my position still stands. All of which you have yet to address but instead have opted to misdirect the conversation by sidestepping the issues. Iām not interested in being pointed all around the globe. Iām interested in addressing the argument you laid out and reading a sound rebuttal from you in defense of it. Are we to expect one, or will you continue to cupid shuffle around your assertions?
You should be fired! lol Just read the comments that address rape culture near the bottom. I feel like that's your main issue and when you get a chance, read that book!
"I couldn't care less if men are offended, especially black men. Black men are always the victim. They never want to be called out on their "stuff" while crimes committed against black women by black men aren't constantly being overlooked,never told, don't receive any press. No one is speaking out on behalf of black women, no one has our back, especially not black men."
I'm sorry you feel this way. I wish things had been different for you because I know several Black men who are not this way. My only hope is that you don't take that out on the world and you find those Black men individually and hold them accountable. I have had transgressions committed against me by Black women, I don't hold other Black women responsible for them. I never will and it's not in my blood. Again, i'm sorry you feel this way.
Actually, I wasn't speaking from personal experience per se. More so, from a historical point of view. We have fought for and rallied against the injustice perpetrated against the Jena Six boys, Rodney King, Troy Davis, Trayvon Martin, Emmit Till, there is many more to name but name me one black woman in history that we have rallied for? How many crimes committed against black women never make it to national news?
Is it a competition?
Rosa Parks, Assata Shakur, Angela Davis, Anita Hill, Ruby Bridges, Leona Tate, Tessie Prevost, Gail Etienne, Addie Mae Collins, Cynthia Wesley, Carole Robertson, Denise McNairā¦
Not to mention that the current legal system in America protects women by keeping their names confidential.
But moreover than all those names is that the disparity of wages between Black women and other women and men is a hot topic in America. The entire way they are treated in corporate America is a hot topic. The issues with Black women and their sexual health is a hot topic. These are all issues. And I don't think there are too many Black men out here who would deny it.
of course its not a competition, And, I appreciate the list. (I could nitpick the fact most of the people you listed were children and how thatā¦.oh nvm) Still question how many people are knowledgeable of the women you just named.
Black women in general are a hot topic in America but I still feel as though our issues are handled by the media much differently,
I just wish we had a more balanced discussion about the black experience. Historically, this discussion has been predominately male focused.
I do apologize for getting so off topic though,
@MsKim
Needs are mic cut off.
Patriarchy believe protecting & providing for a woman with the agreement that there is a benefit for men to do so.
That means persecuting rapists, and disincentivizing rapist to rape because of the repercussions.
If there is a rape culture, which I donāt agree with you on, it is a LACK of patriarchal norms not because of patriarchal norms.
If you are a victim of assault, then you shouldnāt be commenting, you should be therapeutically working on becoming whole again.
seriously, check your definition of Patriarchy and please don't try to get personal with me about possible sexual assault when your understanding of rape is so off based. Don't tell me what I needā¦ugh
I was only responding to comments that people kept making towards me. This is not the discussion to try and make jokes, ok?
I'm done.
This article has given me some inspiration. I think I'm going to have to tackle this subject on my own blog. Thanks for a refreshing take on this situation; one that isn't misandric or misogynistic, just balanced. (I think I'll cite you guys, as well.)
My recent post A VERY Interesting Story About Black History
Iām sorry, but why when the spot light is put on black women the first thing we hear is āown upā, ātake responsibilityā, but when itās put on black men in these types of situation itās always some type of excuse. Again maybe you personally live by the rules you put in this article, but a lot of men and boys donāt and it is over looked. Male privilege like white privilege is real. Just like some HR departments teach about diversity inclusion etc, we have to teach men even the ones who ādonāt feel the fit the descriptionā not to rape.
It seems like society loves to tell women to take responsibility but when we want men to own up, itās always an issue. I mean think about when you see an underage girl with an older man , the first thing people say is āoww sheās fast, nasty etcā¦ā before they even think about how the grown behind man is in the wrong. And we canāt forget the girl Amber on twitter that got caught in a train at school, and grown behind men weāre calling her a hoe.
I think these āTeach men not to rapeā campaigns are helping boys and even some grown men understand what the āgray areaā of rape is and how to stay out of it. To me if youāre a stand up guy then the simple āif it donāt apply let it flyā should work. I also wish these āstand up menā would pass these traits on to younger men and boys and not just simple excuse their actions with āboys will be boysā.
Are you basically trying to argue that we donāt rapists to the fullest extent of the law.
And are you ignoring that we have some fast azz teenage girls out here, considering teen mothers waking around.
They all were not raped (statutory rape is illegal, but still consensual sex.)
I always had a question on whether its rape if a girl gets intentionally drunk to have sex with you, is it rape then? Or what about a spring break environment where everyone is drunk and shes known for being a horny drunk and makes advances, is it rape then?
That's one of those gray area questions that men and women need an answer to. So far I've heard the onus of responsibilty is on the sober party. But what happens when both parties are drunk beyond belief?
Best practice: Unless it is someone you are currently sleeping with, If alcohol is involved, DO NOT DO IT. That is predatorial and opportunistic behavior. Besides, if a woman has to get drunk to sleep with you, you should be too insulted to be bothered.
Mr. SoBo
OpinionatedMale.com
My recent post Shacking Up: What It Really Means When A Man Is Considering Moving In With You
Definitely should best practice. But there are lots of men who look out for the overly drunk woman, hoping to luck up and get some.
I agree w/ Mr. SoBoā¦ just don't have sex with those girls. It's plenty of fish in the sea. If she can't hold her liquor, someone else will. If she only wants to have sex with you when she's drunk or intoxicated, you shouldn't want to be with her anyway.
in both situations, i think legally the onus would be on the male, so yes, the male would be a rapist.
I think "teach men not to rape" is an easy way of saying, "teach men to proactively reject rape culture." I understand why Dr. Jay is offended by the whole teach men not to rape movement that's happening right now, at the same time, sexual violence against black women is at pandemic proportions. When I weigh us men being 'offended' by the phrase 'teach men not to rape' against the pandemic of sexual violence in our community, I kinda feel like we need to suck it up, stop bitchin, and get this ship righted.
I grew up in the hood. Girls get raped in the hood all the time. I remember being like 14 and being mad that all the baddest chicks in my 9th grade class were taken by dudes in their 20's, with cars and all that. All those girls were having sex. All those girls were being raped. That's rape culture. That 1 in 4 number is crazyā¦ it's scary. That number gets even more frightening when you start asking the other 3/4's of women specific, difficult questions about their sexual history. Questions like: Prior to reaching the age of consent in your state, did you ever have a sexual relationship with someone who was over the age of consent?
"Teach men not to rape" is not about incepting our sons into believing they're predisposed to raping chicks, it's about making sure that our sons know that rape culture exists. It's real. It's a thing. They shouldn't ignore it. It's also about giving our sons examples of manhood besides the hypersexualized ones they're getting on TV.
"Slip molly all in her champagne, she ain't even know. I took her home and enjoyed that, she ain't even know."
That's rape culture. And as much as I've always been on the "rap music shouldn't raise our kids, parents should raise our kids" bandwagon, I'd be lying to myself if I said I didn't believe that lyrics like that have real influence.
And I'll close with an anecdote. In my house, taking out the trash is my responsibility. It is known (GOT reference FTW). Imagine if everyday, for 13 straight days my wife comes home and says politely, "Babe, can you please take out the trash," and I don't do it. If she comes home on the 14th day and saysā¦ "Oh my god, you lazy motherf*cker will you take out the f*cking trash, it smells like garbage in here." Do I have a right to be offended by her talking to me that way? I most definitely do. Can I say to her something like "Jeez babe, if it bothered you that much why didn't you take it out?" Sure I can say that. But none of that changes the fact that my house smells like sh*t and everybody who lives here knows that taking out the trash is my responsibility.
THANK YOU!!
THANKKKK YOU. Sometimes we become conditioned to something being dysfunctional for so long that we start to accept it as functional. The whole "teach women how not to get raped and that will save them" method was filled with disjunction but we've (men and women) have heard it for so long we think it's acceptable.
I wish more guys would understand that while they may not personally participate in this kind of culture , that many men do and this message is trying to target them and impressionable you men who learn from them. Man I wish I could be a fly in the barbershop, Iām sure some questionable is has been said there by men, and ignored by men who know that ish was messed up.
I think what i'm saying is that it shouldn't be a childhood game of keep away. We begin to look like kids running around chasing a ball when it's "teach women not to get raped" or "teach men not to rape" ā¦. That's not getting us anywhere. Most of the problems in our world are predicated off of a mindset of is you're not for us, you're against us. That's simply not the case. I gave good examples of why I don't need to be singled out as the enemy or why young Black boys don't need to be singled out as the audience most needing the message. The reason I did that is because I don't think it helps anyone to put the other down to make a point.
I like this analogy, and I get that if Something is YOUR Responsibility, you Don't get to Complain about Neglecting it, but I'm with J on the sense that All Boys and Girls- who become Men and Women- are taught or at least Should Have that you have to be Aware of your Surroundings, the Dangers of Alcohol, the Company you Keep, etc. For the Dark Alley- a Guy can get Mugged, Killed, OR Raped as well, not Just a Woman, for a Party, a Guy can get Drugged, Robbed, and Raped TOO, not Just a Woman. This should be Universal, not " Son/Brother/Young Man, there's a Rape Culture that exists in the underbelly of Society", as if Only Males are Drug Dealer, Pimps, and other Criminal Figures. Ever heard of an Escort Madam? A Woman Druglord who took over after her Husband/Father/Brother? a Dope Lady?
This is by No Means "victim blaming" or "victim shaming", this to say that these percautions and lessons SHOULD apply to Everyone. Just because certain crimes ( Domestic Violence against Men, Date Rape against Males, etc) are a Minority doesn't mean they Don't Happen- these are Real for a good portion of people and shouldn't be Dismissed or Brushed Off so easy
Rape culture ain't in the underbelly of society when rappers are rapping what Ross rapped and thinking it don't count as rape. That's raper culture.
The problem is we have this idea that rape is someone punching somebody in the face, holding them down and forcing themselves on the person. That's not how most rape happens. It's almost always someone the woman has decided to spend time with. And this idea that the only women who get raped are the drunk ones is silly too. Sober women get raped too B. Think about the example I gave above. Go ask the last 5 chicks you smashed if, when they were 14/15/16, if they slept with a man who was technically an adult. I'd bet 3/5 will tell you they did. That's rape culture. That's not in the underbelly of anywhere.
Rape ain't about the boogeyman lurking in the dark. It's about our brothers, nephews, cousins, uncles, friends and sons.
"Go ask the last 5 chicks you smashed if, when they were 14/15/16, if they slept with a man who was technically an adult. I'd bet 3/5 will tell you they did. That's rape culture."
Question. Are you calling this part of rape culture because of our current legal definition of statutory rape, or are you calling this rape because folks 14,15,16,17 years old don't know what's better for them, even when they "desire" it (i put desire in quotes, because truth be told, when i was growing up, this happened as well, and the girls would explain this as "well boys my age are immature, etc.")
i'm just asking to ask, apologies to anyone taking offense.
I think it's a valid question. You just gotta flip it though, forget thinking about what the 14/15/16 year old girls think they want or what they think desire. Forget about that part of it altogether.
I think about it like thisā¦ I'm 29 years old. At my age, I can get almost any 16 year old girl in the world to do whatever I want her to do if I were a statutory raper dude. She has no choice. If I tell her I love her and that we're gonna be together forever as I pick her up from school in my lexus and take her to the mall and all that. It's not fair. She has no real choice in the matter because she's so young and I'm so old. That's why there's a such thing as 'age of consent.'
If you ask those last 5 girls, some of them will tell you they did have a relationship like that, and most of those will tell you they don't think they were raped. But they were because they didn't really have a real choice. That's how pervasive rape culture is.
So then why is the "Minimum age of consent" 16 some places, 17 in others, and Barely 18 in the rest- especially WHEN Parents will just forgo what the Law Says and Press Charges???
That needs to be fixed then, since there are People who will and do exploit and push the boundaries of a law to suit their interests.
Agreed. Nobody is saying that all men are rapists and I don't understand why so many men are getting defensive and missing the damn point.
Again, another poignant comment Sprads. And I wholeheartedly agree, change the name of the campaign and you don't offend anyone and the same results are achieved. I think the way the campaign is named right now is shock marketing. It makes you pay attention and then you read and you see what's being said. That said, I'm not going to suck it up because "I know what you meant" is not something I subscribe too.
The title of her article is "5 ways to teach men not to rape"
What she suggests we do are the following:
1. Teach young men about legal consent:
2. Teach young men to see womenās humanity, instead of seeing them as sexual objects for male pleasure:
3. Teach young men how to express healthy masculinity:
4. Teach young men to believe women and girls who come forward:
5. Teach males about bystander intervention:
If you don't disagree with any of those 5 points, what are we really talking about?
Weak.
You know what we're talking about. And you also know why you won't post the paragraphs supporting each of those 5 points. It's because the content following those points was finger pointing and problematic.
We just disagree dog.
great job on the post though. It's a worthy discussion.
That's the problem of generalizationsā¦ Not all men are rapistsā¦ BUT when a women got raped is by a manā¦ I understand your issue with the name of the campaignā¦ But if it is what it takes to make people pay attentionā¦ Wellā¦
Thank you for this comment!!!
There' still something ot be said for the actual words "Teach men not to rape" and what they imply. You offering your view on it brings perspective, but what was written in the article kind of shifts from your more eloquent representation of what is factual.
I think the overlying statement Jay made that "We should stop pointing fingers and actually solve the problem" is key too.
I was taught to reject rape culture and Im glad i was born with a decent amount of sense to do so!
If we could count on people amount of senseā¦ Damn the world would be a better place!!!
But part of the problem is we don't teach are men and boys not to rape. We don't teach are men and boys what rape is other than the boogie man scenario, we don't police are men when their out here sleeping with minors that they know are minors.
MEN RAPEā¦THEY RAPE THEY RAPE.WHY is that so hard for men to accept. DO ALL MEN DO IT NO .BUT there are men that do, and men that pass along actions that help sustain a rape culture, and it needs to be addressed. They need to be directly addressed. We teach men that womanās bodies are something that is owed to them, something they deserve for holding a door, being polite being nice. I mean how many rape cases do you see where they bring up the victims sexual history, and try to use that as a reason why her no possible couldnāt have been NO.We teach our children not to steal, not to kill, lets teach them not to rape and what it is.
who's we?!
We = society, community..maybe as an individual ppl do but as a group is the message always consistent ..NO
I mean how many rape cases do you see where they bring up the victims sexual history, and try to use that as a reason why her no possible couldnāt have been NO.
Last time I checked Trayvon Martin wasn't raped, yet the prosecution brought up his suspension from school to justfy his murder. Rape victims don't own the monopoly on victim blaming. So is the answer that we teach Hispanics not to kill Black people? If I forget to lock up my apartment and come back from work and all my stuff is gone, should I teach everyone in the complex not to steal?
Why can't we accept that regardless of what you're "taught" we [read: people] *know* right and wrong. Whether it's rape, theft, murder, etc. people know whether or not they'd want their mother to know about what they're doing. If we go about treating everyone as a potential criminal, eventually you begin to promote the behavior you don't want. The entire argument of "teaching men to not rape" has an implicit undertone of shifting blame to men, either for being actual rapists or for not telling other men not to rape. Also, when someone says "Hey is there anything that women can do?" it becomes a case of men being patriarchal and misogynistic. The question many of us are asking is "Why do we feel we have to tell anyone not to do something we/they already know they shouldn't be doing?"
Now with that being said, if this becomes more of Rape is a problem and we [as responsible men and women] need to come together and figure out solutions instead of You're the problem/Accept your responsibility as I sidestep mine and finger point rant, we'll have a much more productive time.
Sprads I know I've told you this a bajillion times, but you are gonna make such a great daddy. Really. *hugs*
@MrSpradley
Note: Before I give this comment that work, I want to say this.
I like your writing, and I thought from a e-Perspective that you would be someone I would aspire to be like.
But I am starting to realize that you are more of a simp, maybe a more attractive version of one.
You can read it again, if you want, I stand by my opinion.
I think āteach men not to rapeā is an easy way of saying, āteach men to proactively reject rape culture.ā
There is no such thing as rape culture.
We live in a world where rape happens, and depending on the circumstances & the participants, the rapists are held accountable for their actions.
If a woman does not come forward with an accusation, or their is not enough evidence to convict the accused, that is not an indictment on our justice system.
And I think we need to start shielding the accused the way we shield the accuser.
I understand why Dr. Jay is offended by the whole teach men not to rape movement thatās happening right now,
Iām offended also. Thank you.
at the same time, sexual violence against black women is at pandemic proportions.
Assuming that this true, that is indictment on the men black women choose to associate with.
Family members not included, that is a tough issue to address when the rapists are people in your fam.
They promote & support men who are violent & and treat them less than human.
When I weigh us men being āoffendedā by the phrase āteach men not to rapeā against the pandemic of sexual violence in our community, I kinda feel like we need to suck it up, stop bitchin, and get this ship righted.
I have a better approach. Let black women fix their own problems. They have too many avenues of support in America to be unhappy & struggling. It is black men who need help.
I grew up in the hood. Girls get raped in the hood all the time. I remember being like 14 and being mad that all the baddest chicks in my 9th grade class were taken by dudes in their 20ās, with cars and all that. All those girls were having sex. All those girls were being raped.
Stop. Please stop. Statutory rape is illegal. Which is fine. It should be decriminalized , but a different issue.
But to act like these girls are not volunteers is being intellectually dishonest.
Maybe the households that came out (mostly single moms) need to be highlighted.
I am not knocking a man in their 20s gettinā some easy teen poon, that should be a rite of passage, not a crime.
Another thing. Young girls/women are always looking for āmatureā men, so that issue is more biology than anything.
Thatās rape culture. That 1 in 4 number is crazyā¦ itās scary.
I question that stat.
That number gets even more frightening when you start asking the other 3/4ās of women specific, difficult questions about their sexual history. Questions like: Prior to reaching the age of consent in your state, did you ever have a sexual relationship with someone who was over the age of consent?
You mean the s*x that they illegally consented to.
āTeach men not to rapeā is not about incepting our sons into believing theyāre predisposed to raping chicks, itās about making sure that our sons know that rape culture exists. Itās real. Itās a thing. They shouldnāt ignore it. Itās also about giving our sons examples of manhood besides the hypersexualized ones theyāre getting on TV.
Sigh. See above.
āSlip molly all in her champagne, she aināt even know. I took her home and enjoyed that, she aināt even know.ā
Thatās rape culture. And as much as Iāve always been on the ārap music shouldnāt raise our kids, parents should raise our kidsā bandwagon, Iād be lying to myself if I said I didnāt believe that lyrics like that have real influence.
Although women have to be more perceptive of the men who they choose to associate.
Slippinā Mollyās in drinks & sleeping with a woman is a crime.
And Iāll close with an anecdote. In my house, taking out the trash is my responsibility. It is known (GOT reference FTW). Imagine if everyday, for 13 straight days my wife comes home and says politely, āBabe, can you please take out the trash,ā and I donāt do it. If she comes home on the 14th day and saysā¦ āOh my god, you lazy motherf*cker will you take out the f*cking trash, it smells like garbage in here.ā Do I have a right to be offended by her talking to me that way? I most definitely do. Can I say to her something like āJeez babe, if it bothered you that much why didnāt you take it out?ā Sure I can say that. But none of that changes the fact that my house smells like sh*t and everybody who lives here knows that taking out the trash is my responsibility.
What happens in your home, is different for what happens in the larger society.
It is not my job (we are not in a patriarchy) to deal with the ārape problemā. And being that I am black male, who isnāt considered of value in the black community, it is of no benefit to me to help stop or eliminate rape.
I will call the cops, because that is my duty as a second class civilian who does not want to go to jail if I see a rape in progress.
But black women can fix the problem themselves.
TL, DNR.
:O! :O!!! -_-'!!!!
"I am not knocking a man in their 20s gettin' some easy teen poon, that should be a rite of passage, not a crime."
-is actually the DEFINITION of rape culture. "Culture" is another term for "way of life", and in your "way of life", taking advantage of impressionable teen girls is OK. Hi, rapey.
I was going to add a comment but youāve summed up my thoughts perfectly. The patriarchy is real and the numbers are there to show it. A significant amount of us men do NOT know what rape is and then prove it over and over again. And it starts young.
Be offended enough to change things.
You're offended by "teach men not to rape." Way to miss the point SMH.
really good post. the whole paragraph about the 1 in 3 dead or in jailā¦ crazy.
thing is, no matter how much we try to deny it, boys and girls are just different. you put a 1 or 2 year old boy in the room with a 1 or 2 year old girl, both with no social conditioning of any sort, especially no sexual conditioning, and the boy WILL reach out and touch the girl. he will be curious, he'll try to see what this other being so different from him is. and the girl will probably either cry, hit him, or watch to see what exactly he's doing. they are just.. different.
so while i tend to agree that grown men shouldn't need to be taught to not rape, i think teaching young boys to respect girls and women in all ways and undeniably so, is probably a better way to word it, but that's just semantics. a lot of young boys are walking around unaware of what rape actually is, what is okay and what's not okay, how common it can be, and how easily it can occur under the premise of everyone is just having a "good time."
i also think that there needs to be education for young girls too. ignorance is not only plaguing boys and men. i've taught and mentored young girls and teens that thought getting drunk at 14 and having sex with 3 different boys in one night and not remembering it the next day was fun. THEY need to be taught too, that there is nothing fun about that, before they learn it in the aftermath when they are crying because they realize they've been disrespected or youtubed or taunted about something they know happened, but have no recollection of. MANY young girls i encountered were having sex with older men thinking it was "cool," being convinced by horny young boys to do things with the whole group in order for acceptance, and the list goes on. it is not okay.
these conversations need to happen. but teaching a boy or man what rape is and what not to do, should happen concurrently with teaching young girls and women the same thing. there is too much gray area to not speak to BOTH sexes about sexual safety and what consensual sex is and isn't. ultimately, it IS up to a boy/man to not rape, but i will always educate my girls as well.
I totally agree!
I think that what i'm seeing now (and it may be done at a higher rate by white folks than Black folks) is that we're going into schools and talking to kids about the way they talk about women. Like I had the opportunity to tell a young dude that if he called women "sisters" instead of "bitches" and "hoes" he would actually attract way more women. He was agreed. That's what i'm trying to get at here in a way. Folks can't be marginalizing that we're doing these things with our youth. We may not be explicitly talking to them about rape, because I don't think it's wise to have a convo about rape before sex, but yeahā¦ we're teaching respect for one another.
Agreed.
The thing is we are always teaching our girls and giving our boys a pass. This campaign is about sitting boys down and giving them their lesson, one that is missed way too often. Iām all for teaching the girls/women and Iām sure there have been more grass root efforts to do so than with young men and boys. This campaign isnāt about ānot teaching /informing you womenā itās about informing /teaching young menā.
"MANY young girls i encountered were having sex with older men thinking it was "cool," being convinced by horny young boys to do things with the whole group in order for acceptance, and the list goes on. it is not okay. " (just using this as an example)
ā-> just how we teach girls to not fall for that kind of thing, we have to teach our boys to stop doing it. I'm all for the two way street it just seems liek whenit's te other way around the responsibilty always falls on just the women to change her actions
my point exactly. we have to teach both. not just one sex. my point in that example was to say we have to teach the boys not to do it and the girls to know it's not okay. it has pervaded the culture so much that for every girl and boy who knows better, there is one of each, who doesn't. period. teaching one doesn't mean giving a pass for the other.
i just don't think it helps to teach girls that it's alright to be unaware because men shouldn't rape. not saying that's what's happening, but for example, my friend is in India visiting her son's family right now. before she came, she was given a strict list of clothing she could and couldn't wear, not because of religious restrictions, but because rape (the boogey man sort) is a real and prevalent problem there. she cannot walk alone anywhere, day or night. she cannot wear short sleeves. she cannot wear a dress, or fitted pants, or anything that even remotely flatters her figure. it's a widespread problem that several groups are working to educate and stop the men from having the mindset that a woman's body is for their disposal. BUT is she not following the warnings and rules that she was given to keep herself safe, you bet she most definitely is. and i think it would just be irresponsible and naive to think that just because something is wrong, people aren't going to do it.
murder is wrong. robbery is wrong. but do you not lock your doors when you go home at night, every night? because no matter how much education is out there, evil and ignorance will exist. i'm only speaking in the respect of young girls and boys and teens, because i've seen first hand the ignorance that prevails when it comes to knowing what sexual consent is, from both sexes. it's scary.
But this campaign isn't saying "Dont teach girls" it's just that boys are the target of this campaign.
I think we all agree :)!
Muze :
Iām not disagreeing with you. But why are people so up in arms about putting the spot light on men. When we talk about single mother hood nobody has an issue with dissecting ( especially if the women is black) how she became a single mother , what bad choices she made etc heck what about those teen pregnancy ads that targeted young mothers , yes there were one or two ads aimed at ā dadā but we know who the spotlight was on.
Now we have a campaign where we want to not add men into the conversation , and educate them along with women , and because it is nice, or doesnāt mention women after it mentions men/man, itās offensive , not good wrong. Iām sorry but ppl have to miss me with that. The campaign is teach men not to rape because men rape ( they can rape men or women) . So to stop them from falling into bad habits , we should teach the what actions constitute rape and how to stop it. No differnt than how we teach women what constitutes rape.
The idea of "teaching men not to rape" isn't meant to be a finger-pointing session. The idea of "rape-culture" isn't about women getting raped. It's about the FACT that the society we live promotes objectification and the victimization of women. Not denying that society isn't oppressive to Black males. That's another argument that needs time to shine too. But recognizing that while there are many good men out there like Dr J and his friends, there are those (like the ones he mentioned throwing shade to) who don't know any better.
I find it funny that almost all of Dr J's ideas on what needs to be done could easily fit into the ones that Zerlina (author of the article) had. Maybe the title could have been worded differently, and it wouldn't have been so offensive to some men. And yes, I agree there needs to be dialogue between the genders. But much of male behavior is shaped by fellow male behavior, so to correct it we need positive discussion amongst men about consent (I know GROWN men who say things like "if she comes over, she ain't leaving without me getting some" or think that as long as she says yes- drunk or not- it's okay), about how to not view women as just sexual objects (I know men that believe a woman's purpose in a relationship is to "get me off whenever I can get it up or I'ma go elsewhere"), and about their use of language and how to show respect. It's easy to say you just knew these things, but for the same reason we take public speaking in school even though we know how to talk and some may be extremely eloquent, it's about making sure EVERYONE knows how to do better and interact better with the genders.
Lastly, I'm always a little bothered when men try to tell women what men need to learn about women. (Confusing huh? lol) For the same reason we can explain institutionalized and blatant racism to a White man and he may never be able to fully grasp the issues that affect Black men, it is extremely difficult for a man to know and grasp the sexism that affects women on a day to day. Just as many Blacks would find it crazy if a White person decided to be the spokesperson on what Blacks need to do to get past slavery, men cannot expect to be the experts on what women need men to learn about sexism and rape. Men have to learn how to listen (without bias or taking things personal) when women speak on what THEY need OUR men to learn about how to help keep them safe.
Hello everyone.
I'm having problems with the article, most notably the supposed "stat" that 1 in 4 Women, Black or otherwise, will be raped, or "attempted raped". Where is this "stat" coming from?
O.
Maybe from here ā http://www2.binghamton.edu/counseling/documents/Rā¦
As I've stated numerous times elsewhere on the Internet, the truth of the matter is that rates of rape in the USA have declined by nearly eighty percent since stats were first recorded and kept on the crime in the early 1970s. This is per crimedata recorded by both the FBI and DOJ and beautifully presented in Harvard cognitive scientist Steven Pinker's magnum opus, "The Angels of Our Better Nature". Rates of rape continue to decline even in our time, and even among African Americans (Black Men have traditionally had higher rates of sexual assault than White Men, in aggregate).
These sobering facts should give much needed perspective when we approach these topics. For one thing, if the argument is that boys and Men should be taught not to rape, then the evidence I've just presented gives striking testimony to the fact that we as a society have come a long way.
I am troubled by the notion that Women are somehow under constant threat of attack when this is simply not the case. It is unfair to the tireless efforts of law enforcement, to the work of Women's advocacy groups, and to our society as a whole, to paint things in such a way. It is irresponsible and is akin to ginning up a mob mentality that in the end does the vast majority of us no good and only serves the narrow interests of a power mad few, who themselves are attempting to use the power of the state to assuage their own personal demons.
If we want to talk about how to lower rape from its present rates of incidence, I for one am all for having that discussion. But to do so means that we have to enter into it in good faith; at present, given the evidence as we have it I for one cannot say with any degree of confidence, that this is indeed the case.
O.
I think maybe the construct should switch from "teaching men not to rape" to "teaching men about rape." However, one thing is indisputable to me: the onus has to shift from putting the pressure all on women to make the right choices.
I try to stay away from rape discussions in general when it comes from the male perspective, which is sad, because I genuinely believe that healthy discourse is the first step towards change. But I almost inevitably get frustrated. Similar to discussing race with a white person, discussions like this don't flourish without the dominant party accepting their innate privilege in the situation. (I'm glad to say I don't have this problem today š ). Rape & rape culture is a really raw topic for a lot of women, myself included, and the comments can devolve so quickly ā people start naming outlier situations, somebody refers to Pookie's cousin's BM who was a lyin' azz tr*ck, and so onā¦.but I digress.
I think the specific term "teaching men not to rape" is really just about teaching men what rape IS. Most men think of these violent scenes where somebody was brutally assaulted in an alley, when in really we know that the overwhelming majority of cases are actually acquaintance rape situations. I really think it should be an essential part of all education, and not just a half-assed workshop during your freshman year orientation. A woman making the conscious choice to trust you with her body is a tremendous power, and men should learn to treat it as such. *I would put that Spiderman quote here, but I'm trying to reduce my cornball levels these days š *
Happy (Good) Friday y'all.
The clear solution here is to decriminalize prostitution. This way, there are no "gray areas" so speak of; Women would then be left to field the interest of suitors who will be more amenable o the kinds of displays they prefer; and Men who wish to hit it can do so in peace and safety. A rare win-win for everyone.
O.
@Shamira
āA woman making the conscious choice to trust you with her body is a tremendous power, and men should learn to treat it as such. ā
Some poon is more valuable (18, hot, slim, virgin), and other poon (90, old & decrepid) is trash.
But as if a manās body isnāt worth much. So much for equality.
I will add, however that when articles like this ā> http://goodmenproject.com/guy-talk/id-rather-riskā¦
and this ā> http://goodmenproject.com/ethics-values/nice-guysā¦
happen, there is a case to be made about "teaching men not to rape." I'm willing to admit that these are more extreme situations though. These specific examples also go into the clusterf*ck that is MRAs , so that's another topic for another day.
Storytime folks!
So I had an insane crush on this fellow teacher/tutor at this after school program where we both worked. (He was only about 3 years older than me.) I thought he was the cutest thing. We grew to be pretty cool and eventually we confessed that we both liked each other. Speed things up to Senior Week (I was graduating from college and never wishing to return to Boston again.) We get in touch, agree to hang out at his crib. I knew he would try to pull something, but I also felt he would be respectful enough to not try and force anything on me if I said no. We're both completely sober, and soon he makes some moves. I'm not really into it. I tell him I don't want to have chex. He asks "Can I at least blah blah blah?" I don't answer, scared to say no but my heads down and I'm clearly feeling emotional. Yet, he still goes down. Then, he decides that he's gonna go in. Doesn't ask or anything. I meekly say "No, no," slightly pushing him away, yet he still pursues. At this point, I'm afraid he'll end up being more forceful if I put up more of a fight (which is actually a typical reaction from victims) so I stop resisting. Worst two minutes of my life. After the deed, he can tell something is wrong with me, but brushes it off. Tries to act like everything's all good.
It took me a year to accept the fact that that whole situation wasn't my fault, even though I felt like it was, and that I was indeed *gasp* raped! I told him I didn't wanna have chex, and I said no. Silence does NOT equal consent, and NO means STOP. At the end of the day, he most likely felt entitled to the chex for whatever reason, even though he knew where my stance lay.
I also saw a tweet on Twitter a couple months ago saying "If I give a chick [sloppy toppy] and she don't want to let me hit, best believe there's an attempted rape going down!" It got a bunch of RT's and laughs. Really now??
I just feel there are men out there that are conditioned some way or another to feel entitled to chex, and that mindset needs to stop. Yes, both men and women need to be educated about rape and what constitutes it, but men also need to be taught to not rape too. Because oftentimes, the ball is in their court and that's when they choose the rape route, unbeknownst to them or not.
@Brina
You had no business in his crib.
There were reasons as to why I went to his crib that we did discuss prior to me coming that had nothing to do with chex, if you must know. Plus, it was 2 o'clock in the afternoon as opposed to 11 o'clock at night during booty call hours. In addition, if I felt a guy friend was cool and trusted him, I didn't mind going to his crib to just hang and I was respected, whether they wanted to get down or not.
But despite all of that, you think it was still my fault huh? I deserved to get disrespected? OH OK.
Victim blaming 101. You just refuse to place blame on the man, Adonis. It doesn't matter if she was at his house at 3am. Rape is rape and he could have been tried and convicted based on that.
No where in these campaigns are they tryig to take the focus off of women. They are not telling women to not be aware. They are telling men what they can do to help stop rape. Thatās it. 2 weeks on this same website there was an advertisment targeting teen moms in NYc and everybody was about mixing straight toward messaging with facts , and resources . How is this any differnt . To often the tape conversation is had and women are only told what they can do. Sometimes we do everything within our power and still get raped. So now what, now what do we do. Why donāt we try not just speaking to girls/women but actually addressing men/boys about their actions and what then can do along with women to help.
Thatās all the campaign is about, nothing more nothing less. Women arenāt an their actions , behaviors etched are not being left out of the conversations , itās just now were examing menās actions and thought along with it. Why is that such an issue. If your not raping anyone these poster are just a simple reminder of where the line is drawn , and if your doing what the men in the posters say ā donāt doā then yes I hope it makes you feel guilty , sheās some light on your ish so you can change .
This campaign is about male accountability , yes, itās not leaving women/girls out ,just using a differnt message to inform them.
Iām inclined to agree with Doc on this. Itās a mixed message that can do more harm than good when addressing so-called ārape cultureā. Itās a multi-layered issue for one thing. We could touch on the patriarchal root of the issue, or how itās was first propagated by the majority of the population, that has allowed it to become institutionalized.
The focus is on the present, but the thought process that fostered the ārape cultureā way of thinking is centuries old, and itās going to take more than a few twitter rants, fb likes, and web commentaries to.change the thinking.
1. Black Women need to promote & deal with better men.
Do you want a patriarchy or do you want equality?
Asking men to help womenās problem is patriarchal enforcement. What feminists want is the BENEFITS of patriarchy, but not the responsibilities of being a patriarchal woman.
āWOMEN want the POWER of MEN, the PRIVILEGE of WOMEN & the RESPONSIBILITY of NEITHER.ā
In case it went over your head.
Black women need to to deal with better men? True, but that's not the point. Black men need to be better men. (this applies to all men, but since you want to narrow down to one race). Men need to accept responsibility in order to do better. I'm so tired of seeing, "Oh she should have chosen a better guy, what was she doing out so late, why was she wearing that dress, she has a promiscuous history." Obviously these may play a part but the ultimate responsibility lies on the person committing the crime.
And actually, rape is not "a women's problem."
It's a problem for men too.
Many good men are justifiably angry that they're lumped in with the rapistsā these 1-in-25 scumbags give them all a bad name. But instead of attacking the scumbags (who are the actual problem), they tend to get angry at women, as if they're the problem. They get angry that women look at them sideways as if all men are predators, and so they attack that. They feel there's nothing good men can do to salvage their reputation, and that it's women, with their incessant reports of rape, that's eroding their rep. NO. It's the bad men who are eroding your rep. And there IS something you can do to help fight that.
Good Men, do not tolerate the rapists. Do not provide cover for them. Don't laugh at their rape jokes. Don't make excuses for their behavior. Don't insist they're good-guys-who-would-never just because they're your friends. Better yet, don't be their friends! I GUARANTEE women will notice. They WILL see that you're a Good Guy.
Because women notice the reverse, I PROMISE YOU. You don't actually have to be the guy who rapes. We see you laugh off those "jokes" and WE REMEMBER. We see you protecting the Bad Guys (consciously or not) and WE REMEMBER. And then we avoid you. We watch you carefully. We make sure not to leave our girlfriends alone with you. That IS us taking responsibility for our safety, as much as we can.
R@pe is an absolutely abhorrent crime, perpetrated by cowards, violating someone less powerful than they are.
That said, I'm a pragmatic person. How is this "teaching going to help?" I understand teaching the true "gray" areas, like what is legal considered rape, for example, when a boy turns 18 and is having $ex with his 17-year old girlfriend.
The problem is saying r@pe is wrong isn't exactly revelatory. We all know it's wrong. But bad people do bad things. Having a "We Need to Teach Men Not to Murder" class isn't going to stop killers from killing. They know it's wrong, they know the legal ramifications, and they do it anyway. Likewise, the potential rapist will sit in the class, and completely ignore it.
I'm not sure what the solution is, or if there is one. But simply saying, "Don't you be r@pin' nobody!", even in a formal class setting, isn't going to help much, if at all. Sending them to jail and having someone of gifted length and girth do the same to them is the probably best we can do.
Here's the difference. There is no "gray" area in murder. You either killed someone or you didn't. Rape, however? Tons of 'gray' that is really rape. Example:
1) A 35 year old man tells his 20-year old date to "stop being so childish" when she tells him she doesn't want to have sex yet. She stays silent, let's him do the do, wakes up in the morning feeling degraded.
2) A married couple is getting into bed. The husband wants some, but the wife has not reached the 6 weeks required before sex is permitted after having a child. He protests the entire evening until she relents, painfully and silently.
3) A lady is studying with her guy friend. It's gotten quite late and they relaxed with a beer before he drives her home. She falls asleep on the couch when he went to the restroom before they were about to leave, and wakes up to him going down on her. Alarmed and frightened, she asks him to stop. He tells her, "then why did you stay so late? Why did you wear a that outfit? You wanted this!" and keeps going.
EVERY instance is s*xual assault. EVERY instance will not get reported. EVERY instance the man felt he was "intitled" because of the circumstance.
What we have been tirelessly arguing is the need to reverse the culture in which men feel they are "owed" or have a right to a women's body, and ACTUAL consent.
+100000!!!! THANK YOU!!!
I agree with you on the gray area, which I mentioned. But the problem is still that the people that need to hear the message aren't going to be receptive to it.
Teaching men not to rape is a lot more than "saying" it. Although saying that is also very powerful.
There are definitely ways of improving. You can look at cultures from centuries ago, where rape was commonplace and murder as wellā¦ā¦ How do you think we've gotten to a place in the world now, in 2013, and especially in free countries where rape is a universal CRIME (including spousal rape, date rape, statutory rape). That was probably unfathomable in societies centuries ago, and in societies even now across the world where women have little more rights than cattle.
Humanity has achieved quite a lot in drastically reducing rape and sexual abuse, but we still have much more to do. It is a lack of vision that limits you from seeing how perhaps efforts now can move mountains in this cause in the future. And that is NOT idealistic, that is simply a fact. Like I said, you just have to look at the the history of human civilizations to see that.
āAnd I think we need to start shielding the accused the way we shield the accuser.ā
REALLY, ADONIS!!! Hello Rape Boy!!!!!
If only you had the foresight to speak only on those subjects which you know about. Maybe then you wouldn't look like an ass.
"It certainly wasn't r@pe classes."
Liberal education is actually probably a huge factor.
"I wouldn't pay attention if I was forced to sit in a class, just to have a woman wag her finger at me, and tell me what an evil person I am for walking around armed with a pen!s."
Reducing the concept of "teaching men not to rape" (as outlined in Zerlina's article) to THIS, is unbelievable. Who even said anything about classes? If that what education looks like to you, that's unfortunate and and actually explains a lot. In any case, education is more than that. It's about educating your peers, mentoring young boys & girlsā¦. Need I really go on?
Laughing My A$$ Off!
So you're telling me to "look at the the history of human civilizations", and then say r@pe was mitigated because "Liberal education is actually probably a huge factor"? Then tell me that I should only speak on those subjects which I know about? Do you really think the Huns, Vikings and Gauls stopped r@ping because liberal education was probably a huge factor?
On top of that, talk about "educating your peers, mentoring young boys & girls" as your innovative solution, as if we aren't told very often and from a very early age that it's wrong?
"Need I really go on?"
Only if you wish to embarass yourself further.
You just have a problem with women. It doesn't matter what I say, you will not see reason when it comes to feminist issues.
Like this shouldn't be that controversial an issue. We're talking about teaching men not to rape. You even say it's not exactly innovative, it should be basic. So why are you arguing? See my last point. You are a jackass.
My very first comment on the topic was "R@pe is an absolutely abhorrent crime, perpetrated by cowards, violating someone less powerful than they are." I said we should teach men the consequences of r@pe, and men that do so should go to jail and get r@ped themselves. So obviously that means I have a problem with women.
"You are a jackass."
Oh! Now I totally see it from your point of view!
Nope. I think it's pretty clear that you don't understand the concept of "rape culture." (The term has been pulled and stretched, so maybe that's understandable.)
It doesn't really work by teaching boys to rape, per se. Not directly. Rape culture is better defined as an environment of rape-tolerance. Take victim-blaming, for example. It's one of the primary factors of rape culture. That's when reports of rape and sexual assault are met with "well what was she wearing?" and "she shouldn't have gone home with him" and so onā basically, they add up to "what did she expect?" One: this says rape is to be expected. As if it's normal. And two, the convo becomes about all the things she "should have done" to prevent her own rape (instead of "hello, he shouldn't have done that"). THAT'S victim-blaming.
And there is literally NO WAY you weren't exposed to it growing up.
The thing about VB (and indeed most of rape-culture-ism) is that if you're a predator, the prevalence of VB protects you. It helps you not get reported/prosecuted, so you're free to do it again. And again and again. They're not stupid. They don't want to get caught.
To put it another way: rape culture tells you what to do to get away with it. Frex, it teaches predators NOT to use force, NOT to jump out from the bushes. Because EVERYBODY will call that rape and come looking for you. But if choose an intoxicated target, you're home freeā "well she went home with him willingly, soā¦" and "what did she expect when she went to a private room with him?" and "she said yes at the time, now she's just having sober-morning regrets." (Notice how his responsibility not to rape disappears. As does the concept of legit consent.) That's rape culture. And studies (Lisak & Miller, Koss, McWhorter) have proven repeatedly that this IS how predators operateā they deliberately avoid using force, preferring intoxicants instead, because they know that makes it more likely they'll get away with it. They know to drink a little too (but not as much as the target), so they can claim it was a "misunderstanding." They know their victims probably won't be taken seriously if they were drunk. AND!! Their victims know it too, so they tend not to report in the first place. Perfect!
THAT'S rape culture.
And there is no way you weren't exposed to it growing up.
One more thing. When you look at the studies, you find that only about 1 in 25 men are predators. They're vastly outnumbered by good guys. What that means is, the good guys provide cover. When a guy makes a nasty "joke" about violating boundariesā "that chick is just asking for it, amirite?" or "in the Champagne Room, you can choke the dancers, ha ha!" or whateverā and all his buddies laugh and nobody calls him out (don't tell me you've never seen this), he knows that his buddies are "safe." He's testing the waters to see how rape-tolerant they are. If they're very rape-tolerant, then they'll provide cover. They'll make excuses for him when he gets out of lineā "oh don't mind him, when he's drunk his hands wander; he doesn't mean anything by it; he's a good guy." And any women who see him not called out will know that his buddies are NOT safe. That they'll be unlikely to believe her if she reports to them. That'sā say it with meā rape culture.
And THAT is how you "teach men not to rape." You take away their cover. You teach them that there's no way to get away with it. Because they will learn. (A study (possibly iffy) found that 1 in 4 men said they would rape IF they knew they could get away with it. Compare that to the 1 in 25 who actually do it. It suggests that a lot of men don't do it ONLY because they think they'd be caught. ALL men need to feel that way. You will be caught.) And flip side, you teach potential victims that it's safe to report; that they won't get violated all over again with victim-blaming, character assassination, etc.
PS: Here's an excellent article that examines the Lisak & Miller and McWhorter studies, the predator's MO and how they work the culture to stay undetected, and WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT.
Highly, highly recommended reading, for both men and women.
PLEASE take a look. It'll blow your mind.
Good Guys, ask yourself this.
Is there a dude you know who, when you see him taking a tipsy girl from the party, you worry? Maybe you step in and offer her a ride or you tag along, instead of letting them leave alone together?
THAT GUY IS A BAD GUY. And on some level you know it.
In fact, he's probably done some Bad Things already! And he'll probably do it again.
How do you feel about that guy now? Still want to consider him a friend? Think about it.