Home Featured Do Women Really Value Sex More than Men?

Do Women Really Value Sex More than Men?

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What Women Want

The popular theory is that women value sex more than men. This past weekend I was debating this topic with the misses. Eventually, I jokingly quoted from a Dave Chappelle routine, “if men could have sex in a box, they wouldn’t buy a house.” If you’re unfamiliar, this routine is shown in the YouTube video below.

“A woman’s test in life is material. A man’s test in life is a woman.” – Dave Chappelle

Among many other topics in this routine, Dave points out that men buy nice homes, cars, and surround themselves with other material items for the purpose of appealing more attractive to women. These actions show that men recognize that they must adapt to what a woman finds important in order to appeal to women. If women valued sex (or the pursuit of women) as highly as men, specifically their ability to control the sex they do or do not give away, then why do (some) women give sex away so easily? Or as was said in the comment section of a past SBM post, if men control commitment and women control access to sex, why aren’t women as stingy with sex as men are with commitment?

Before turning it over to the comment section for response, I’ll address the most common assumption, which I’m sure will still come up today.

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It’s All Men’s Fault

Maybe it is or maybe it is not. Perhaps I’m biased, but I fall into the “maybe it is not” group.

women be likeIn my (biased) opinion, women determine the value of sex. Using an economic analogy, in the case of heterosexual couples, women are the owners and men are the customers. Heterosexual men can only obtain sex from women. I think we can all agree that sex is a high demand item; however, the market is saturated, no pun. This means that the value of sex is driven down due to the ease of obtaining sex.

Although women are the owners of this high demand product, rather than properly assess its value relative to demand, many choose to give it away for less than what the customer is willing to give. In theory, women can set the relative sticker price as high or low as they want, yet  some choose to give it away for free and wonder why they receive little investment from the customer, in this instance, men. If an equitable return for sex is commitment, loyalty, or whatever else a woman deems important, then why give away sex without first obtaining an agreement that these things will be given in return?

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For example, the HuffingtonPost recently ran a story about a woman who dated over 100 men in 18 months because, according to her, men kept leaving whenever she revealed she was abstinent. According to her, the average man expected sex after three to six dates. Regardless of how accurate or inaccurate this estimate, is this expectation set by men or women? Is it more likely that men made this average number of dates up or is it more likely that enough women were willing to have sex with them after three to six dates (or less) thereby creating the expectation?

A number of women will respond that if they don’t offer sex early enough – meaning they value sex and themselves as more than just a sexual object, which for the record is perfectly reasonable – men will leave them for another woman. This is likely true in some cases, but this seems to be the wrong question to ask. After all, why would a woman want a man who doesn’t value her as much as she values herself?

Why settle for less?
Why settle for less?

In the market place of sex and relationships, exactly what type of “customers” are you trying to attract? Are you offering Wal-Mart sex or NORDSTROM sex? These two stores are competing in the same market, but their value systems clearly show that they are targeting different customers. Stated another way, NORDSTROM doesn’t lower their prices to compete with Wal-Mart customers, so why devalue yourself to compete with other women who do not have the same value system as yourself?

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If a woman doesn’t demonstrate she values herself and her expectations as a result of this valuation, then how are men responsible for placing equal or more value on something she hasn’t even determined for herself? I honestly don’t have an answer, so today I have two questions: 1) Who decides the value of sex, men or women? 2) If women truly value sex more than men, then why do (some) women give sex away so easily?

 

Comment(95)

  1. Its competition, women are becoming more open and aggressive about sex that even the most self respecting woman isn’t trying to be a Blackberry to the IPhones and Galaxys out here. The irony is that women are indeed the controllers, if they set the standard men will oblige (ie dudes quick to wear a girls thighs like a ski mask now when 6-7 years ago ninjas wanted no parts).

  2. 1) Who decides the value of $ex, men or women?

    Women, for the reasons you gave above. Technically, women decide the price, but that's being overly pedantic with the example. Suffice it to say when you increase the supply of something, the price comes down. Women, as the gatekeepers, increased the supply.

    2) If women truly value $ex more than men, then why do (some) women give $ex away so easily?

    I'm not sure that women value it more. I'll let the women explain why they give it away so easily, but I'd guess the biggest reason is because women love $ex too. They just have to be careful whom they give it to.

    1. But maybe it’s not giving it away easily but simply certain men fall in certain categories. Men place women in categories. Women they would just sleep with and women they might actually put time and effort into. Maybe women are doing the same thing. Not every man who can break your back may tickle your emotional fancy.

      Why do men feel like they’ve been cheated because one man didn’t have to do what you have to do to get inside? Maybe you’re in a different league; maybe she’s looking for more from you because she wants more than just a chexual relationship with you.

      Now if your referring to the giving it away easy but looking for more chicks then that’s a different story. A lot of women feel like it’s a buyers market so, inside of holding out until they get what their looking for they give in for a little bit of something vs. nothing at all.

      1. I agree with your example…to an extent. when men place women in categories we save our precious things for those we deem most worth. We don't take the jump off to the fancy restaurants and buy her thoughtful gifts. If she wants any of that she has to epicly work for it if there is even a chance she can get it. Women giving up sex easily for the "lack luster" man makes no sense to use because the precious thing doesn't seem precious when given away so easily.
        My recent post My 2012 gaming year in review

      2. SMilez_920: "Why do men feel like they’ve been cheated because one man didn’t have to do what you have to do to get inside?"

        Because a man feels, "I'm grateful and flattered you value me more than the average guy, I truly do, and I really do care for you, BUT I WANT SOME BOOTY TOO!"

        "Now if your referring to the giving it away easy but looking for more chicks then that’s a different story."

        I was just answering the question as WIM stated it.

        I don't disagree at all with the woman's perspective of "something vs. nothing at all." Keeping with the economic example, a woman on the bus may want a new car. While waiting and saving to pay the price for a new car, she might buy a cheap used car in the meantime just so she doesn't have to wait outside at a cold, rainy bus stop. She'll pay the price for something temporary that is better than her current condition, although that temporary thing isn't what she ultimately wants.

        1. "I don't disagree at all with the woman's perspective of "something vs. nothing at all." Keeping with the economic example, a woman on the bus may want a new car. While waiting and saving to pay the price for a new car, she might buy a cheap used car in the meantime just so she doesn't have to wait outside at a cold, rainy bus stop. She'll pay the price for something temporary that is better than her current condition, although that temporary thing isn't what she ultimately wants."

          That is a very good way to put this, but I think this would be fore either gender. Men will purchase a used car or two until they can afford to buy that jag or lexus.

          My recent post Children are our future part 2

    2. (I don't know why i can't login)

      i think i'll just drop my co-sign here for now… WIM just totally ignored that fact in his post "women love s*x too"

    3. Uncle Hugh, I agree with you! As a lady in her late 20's I can say this..

      The value of s3x is different per interaction and we all need to stop using sexual assumptions as a defense mechanism against heartbreak.

  3. Really enjoyed the post. Looking forward to the responses.

    Just have to ask: is that Slim Jackson up front in the “Bu end up with this” box in that picture?

    1. Literally laughing out loud at that guy looking like Slim!!!!!

      He sure does! LMBO!

      (can't login to intensedebate for whatever reason)

    2. Joe Sargent finallly has some good news from the Michigan sports world to cheer for with UM getting to the Final Four that he feels he can just start throwing shade all willy nilly? I like it!! LOL

      (And I was wondering the same thing, ta ha ha)

  4. See, things are not as simple as they appear. Both men and women decide the value of sex, but this value fluctuates even with a single person. Sometimes a woman just wants to have sex, but when it comes to someone with potential, she may want to hold out so as not to make hasty decisions based on clouded judgments. Guys, of course, tend to complain that this is bullshit.

    To the extent that women generally put more thought into sex, I’d argue that they do value it more. From an emotional standpoint, that is. From a purely “having it” perspective, men may be the ones to take that title. As to the next question, you have to realize that there are different dynamics at play. Not everyone has a high level of self esteem, nor the emotional fortitude to remain single until that man who is willing to wait more than y number of weeks/months/date comes around. If we’re talking about black people, black women tend to outnumber the men they consider desirable, so even if they’re the gatekeepers to sex, they may be more willing to sacrifice one thing of value (sex) for another (companionship, intimacy, etc – no matter how fleeting). Men are an an advantage when it comes to numbers, and a lot of them are stingy with commitment simply because relationships are hard work that they’re not necessarily prepared for. Women, on the other hand, generally have more romanticized views of things and make decisions based on feelings.

    From a young age, people are exposed to highly sexualized content via the media, and girls and boys alike are taught that this is what people do – get frisky and bang. Kids are busy having sex in middle school, way before they can comprehend the potential future implications and set some self-preserving attitudes. A lot of grown women don’t believe that sex should determine their worth or the potential for a commitment, so they have sex within the first encounter. There are so many different views/beliefs regarding what is acceptable and what isn’t, that a guy who has no immediate need for relationships will easily be able to find someone who will sleep with him on a schedule that favours his desires. Those who want relationships but see no reason to delay sexual activities can do the same. It would be extremely hard for women to band together and get on the same page in a bid to alter the behaviour of both sexes. I’m now going to stop rambling, and I hope I made at least one coherent point. My brain is still quarter to dead.

    1. this right here "If we're talking about black people, black women tend to outnumber the men they consider desirable, so even if they're the gatekeepers to sex, they may be more willing to sacrifice one thing of value (sex) for another (companionship, intimacy, etc – no matter how fleeting)."
      I been gone for a minute but I see not much has changed and Naija still dropping immense knowledge for free…*smile* I cosign on all this 1000%.
      As Naija stated its not black and white. The reality is most all women want LOVE much much more than just SEX. They want sex. Yes of course women love sex as much as men do.
      Herein lies the caveat – Women want more than sex. Sex is not enough for most women, especially when there feelings get in it. Many women Cannot and don't want to seperate love and sex and have to choose one or the other because most times they can't get both from the men they want.

      1. Many times men are cool with just sex, no more, no less, however women are not.
        Men let me pose this question to you – Do you know if the women you've had sex with and no relationship came of it wanted a relationship with you? Did you ever think about it or ask them?
        I asked that question because typically when men are sleeping with a woman, most times, they aren't thinking about being in a relationship, much less her being "wifey." But women are thinking about that. Unless they are more career driven and not in relationship mode at all, or focused on something else and truly do choose to be single at that time, or not really into (ie attracted to) the guy, or the sex they're having with him is garbage. Its even been stated in previous posts that many men tend to accidentally end up in relationships. They don't ever really plan on being in a relationship. They don't plan on or intend to or sometimes even want to fall in love, it just happens.

        1. Women tend to desire relationships and love and ever afters, In Addition to Sex more often than men do.
          Also consider the universal societal double standards regarding sex where men and women are concerned.
          Men are not criticized for being with many women sexually. In certain societies, men can have more than one wife. There is no society that i know of where a woman can have more than one husband.
          Since the beginning of time even in present day US men have had concubines, mistresses, harems, etc etc etc. But not women. If anything men are encouraged by society to have more than one woman.
          If a woman sleeps with "many men" she is labeled a "hoe." She is looked at as trashy, slutty, and all other kinds of negative connotations.

        2. So to answer the question I think men and women value sex, just in different ways and not equally and for different reasons.
          If women truly value sex more than men, then why do (some) women give sex away so easily?
          Truth answer whether folks care to admit it or not is this – Men are great at wheeling and dealing and selling. One of the reasons why men are so great when it comes to corporate business and sales. Men can sell sex in such a way that many women will buy it.
          They cover up their true intentions with promises of love, sometimes promises of a relationship and/or marriage, lofty fantasies, hopes and dreams and any and everything else they know women want and the women buy it.

        3. There are some men who are Truth-Tellers. I think now more and more men are being straight up and making it clear in words and deeds what they really want. Women still sleep with men hoping to "change" them. Maybe they feel as if they are sitting on that Platinum Goldmine that will make him want and need only her…….(and they they wake up) lol.
          Some men also give women half & half. Half truth, half lies, half ommission, or serve them a combo of truth and ommission. So some women give it up based on hope.
          Then of course there are women who are horndogs as much as men and want sex, no more no less.
          Thats my 2 pennies.

        4. The majority of women I"ve had sex with I was in a relationship with already. The others we had an understanding that we weren't in nor were we progressing to a relationship. I'm probably an anomaly though.
          My recent post My 2012 gaming year in review

        5. @bree

          sweetheart we ain’t gon let this slide

          If women truly value sex more than men, then why do (some) women give sex away so easily?
          Truth answer whether folks care to admit it or not is this – Men are great at wheeling and dealing and selling. One of the reasons why men are so great when it comes to corporate business and sales. Men can sell sex in such a way that many women will buy it.
          They cover up their true intentions with promises of love, sometimes promises of a relationship and/or marriage, lofty fantasies, hopes and dreams and any and everything else they know women want and the women buy it.

          You can get away with making women out to be victim 10 years ago, 5 years ago.

          BUT WE HAVE THE INTERNET. When you can’t hide your BS like you can pre-technology.

          You make women out to be victims with NO agency.

          Yes, some men are good at what they do, and should get credit for that.

          But to make women out to be naive in 2013 is irresponsible & only telling half the stories, making men out to be predators & women prey.

          Be better.

        6. Adonis I didn't say women were victims and men were predators.
          What I am saying is that many times love and relationships is a game to many and men are the major players, often times women lose.
          Obviously men aren't playin the game to lose right…..your goal is to win, (whatever u deem the prize to be). ijs.

        7. Also, if every woman on God green earth chose not to be with men who cheat and lie more of those women would be single, than not single and the human race would officially begin to die out.
          Many women end up staying with men that lie and cheat; if not forever for a very very very long time. So in a round-about way, thats probably a good thing. The bible does say we should forgive.

        8. First of all, as long as their are single non-cheating, non-lying, monogamous men to choosie from, are arguement is null & void.

          Are you saying that all those men are taken @Bree?

        9. And lastly Adonis, just because this isn't applicable to you, doesn't mean it isn't to many other men.

        10. @Bree

          First of all, some men lie to get the draws, but most of them are just plain attractive & have multiple suitors, and usually women KNOW that, but in the short-term, the woman is winning,

          But when she finally realizes that she ain’t getting him exclusively and she played all her cards, she is salty, and now, the dude who were willing to commit before, want nothing to do with her.

          Yes, some women need to be taught to play the game better, but usually she is playing the game, she weighed her option & did what was best for her IN THE MOMENT.

          And she loses in the long-term.

          You did not break it down like that. You implied that men are playing these women. And that is not the case, cause most women are not in the dark like that.

        11. Adonis yes there are men playing women. I know this because I know the men who are some of the biggest and best players. From family members, (including my dad), to friends, coworkers, acquaintances, and ex's. No not All men are players, but too many are.

        12. At any rate, yes many women do foolishly fall "fall for the bait." Instead of really paying attention and seeing through the bs and calling the bluffs and being patient and knowing their worth, they give it up off the strength of hope and faith that "this man is different." But remember, what gives them hope is the bs these "players" are feeding them. And they believe the lies and bs.
          Lets be real Adonis, many a man will say and do almost anything to get a woman he really wants. And if its good he will do and say almost anything to keep on getting it.
          So even when women figure it out and know they aren't the only ones, men say and do things to make them think they are. The expert next level players are the ones who can handle more than one woman and make all of them feel like they are the only woman in their world.

        13. They are able to make women fall in love with them again and again and again. That type of stuff makes a lot of men look bad in womens eyes.
          As far as being taught to play the game. Ideally, men and women need to stop playing games with each other. Love and relationships should not be a game. We are not kids. If we are all grown folks its time to start acting like it.

        14. Bree, if may interject: I think Adonis is suggesting that women who continually "fall for the bait" are, in fact, usually engaged in plain self-deception.

          A reasonable assumption is that most grown, halfway intelligent women have agency and some better (if less sexy) options. For women who truly might not have better options than irresponsible players, that would be a reflection of their market value–and they're dealing as best they can, given their own needs.

          The vast majority of men–including those deemed "eligible"–do not have "expert next level" game and awesome powers "to make women fall in love with them again and again." As the saying roughly goes: Fool me once, shame on you; fool me thrice, shame on me.

          I think we're all familiar, directly or indirectly, with the mutual game: man tells woman what they both know she wants to hear, which is the pretext for her opening herself to the (uncommitted) s-x they both desire. That many women might also want more than this, despite the obvious pretext and faint hope, is neither here nor there.

          Again, I'm making no moral judgments–other than that women, like men, need to own their choices.

        15. Thank you @BP for saving me keystrokes.

          This act that women are getting played is tired. Because it reeks of solipsism & entitlement.

        16. No not All men are players, but too many are.

          Stop projecting your family & friend onto the men at large. That is a immature perspective.

      2. Haha, I've been gone for a hot minute, myself. I'd probably flunk out if I were posted up on SBM now as in the past.

    2. @Naija

      “a guy who has no immediate need for relationships will easily be able to find someone who will sleep with him on a schedule that favours his desires.”

      This is CLASSIC Apex fallacy, where you are looking at the guys who are sleeping with most of the women at the top, and projecting that lifestyle on all men.

      The Marketplace is harsh for a majority of men & women. Especially men, because at least women have value to begin with.

  5. Your binary–"men or women"–is too broad for these purposes.

    Relatively high status or attractive men and women set the value for s-x. After the s-xual revolution, women are in no general position of advantage.

    A woman who prices s-xual access high–in comparison to other women who either set their prices lower or are seen as more attractive–will have fewer prime "customers," by the standard measures. Of course, such a woman needn't "settle for less": she can wait and hope, or she can go it alone. Men who have options (and know it) will soon move on–except in rare cases where they deem the woman a special package overall.

    In short, hypergamy isn't about a moral "value system." Traditionally decent men of modest means and looks are out there. Women who think of themselves as "Nordstrom" quality typically aren't checking for such men.

      1. Thanks for responding. I'd like to expand a bit further.

        The s-xual revolution (SR) fundamentally changed the marketplace. Before, women realistically could expect an "eligible" man to wait for them when most "respectable" women had very few, if any, premarital partners. There simply wasn't much supply of s-x available from desirable enough women. So it made sense even for in-demand men to abstinently invest time and resources on a long-term prospect: nothing much was going on elsewhere, anyway.

        Now, post-SR, women who employ an extended waiting strategy are likely prompting an in-demand man to seek, in the meantime, readily available women elsewhere. Game playing and miscommunication are foreseeable effects. Yes, a few seemingly "eligible" men will abstinently accept extended waiting–but a particularly high rate of latent issues among such men is predictable. Non-waiting women aren't devaluing s-x but, rather, dealing with post-SR reality.

        There is no moral judgment in these observations. Marketplace dynamics tend to be amoral.

    1. Good point. There are many men who have Nordstrom dreams on a Wal-Mart budget, and hypergamy is always a variable in this equation.

  6. See, I don't know. I'm young and new to everything. lol

    Personally I feel as though your last paragraph suggest that men places the value on sex for women because men attribute what a woman does or doesn't do with her body to be representative of how she values herself as a whole person. However what a man does or doesn't do with his body isn't often used as a moral measuring stick of how he values himself as a person. Not to suggest that men aren't valued based on their sexual prowess, just from what i've read on this site, it seems like women tend to bend more in that area and aren't as critical.

    With so much judgment being placed on a woman due to what she decides to do with her body, i'll say that men probably control the value of sex.

    Again, I don't really know.

    1. You raise a good point. In all honesty, if their actions and ease of access to sex provided by men is any indication, then men do not value sex very highly given the fact that they’re willing to give it away so easily. That’s why, logically speaking, if women “value” sex more you would expect their actions to be different if not completely opposite than men. Instead, the current environment and ease of access suggest neither men or women value sex very highly. I guess this is neither good or bad, but men still recognize the “value” of commitment, which is why they continue to be very prudent in how they negotiate the terms of commitment.

      – sent from iPhone

    2. MsKim: "With so much judgment being placed on a woman due to what she decides to do with her body, i'll say that men probably control the value of sex."

      WIM: "the current environment and ease of access suggest neither men or women value sex very highly."

      Prepare for a pedantic, econ nerd response.

      MsKim is correct in that men control the value of $ex. Women control the price of $ex. Price is what something costs. Value is what you would pay for it.

      There is "ease of access" because the current price that women place on $ex is lower than the value men place on it. Men will pay much more (their value is higher than the price), but why? As Mr. Chappelle said, “if a man could (have sex) with a woman in a cardboard box, he wouldn’t buy a house.” Which means a man will buy a house (pay the price) to have $ex. But if the price was cheaper (women would have $ex with men that lives in boxes), men wouldn't pay the higher price because there is no need to.

      1. There is “ease of access” because the current price that women place on $ex is lower than the value men place on it.

        In summary, this would be my thesis statement. I guess I don’t understand why women (appear) to value sex less than men, yet then wonder why men don’t value sex. Basically men appear to not value something that a number of women are demonstrating doesnt have much value – to us or themselves. If more value was placed on the “gate keepers” of sex, my hypothesis is that men would recognize the value or at least pay a “higher premium” for access.

        It’s like the Internet. I know the Internet has tangible value, but if you’re offering free content, why is it my responsibility to pay? If something has true value – to you or it should to me – giving it away for free, in my opinion, isn’t the best way to demonstrate it’s value.

        Disclaimer: I must end by saying, it’s a woman’s (or mans) right to do whatever she wants with her body. As such, it’s a man’s (or woman’s) right to draw conclusions based on how she uses that right.

        1. I pretty much agree with your whole comment.

          WIM: "Basically men appear to not value something that a number of women are demonstrating doesnt have much value – to us or themselves."

          I think what skews the "value" for women is they want $ex too. So while waiting on the perfect arrangement, they get hot, they get bothered, they get hot and bothered (bonus points to anyone that knows that reference). I'm not a woman so I can't say for sure, but when women have their urges, it's not that they really want to give up the goods, but they almost can't help themselves because that itch needs to be scratched.

          But to be pedantic (again), the value men place on $ex hasn't dropped. Only the price. If a man is willing to pay $200 for the "new" Jordans, but some place sells them for $150, why pay the extra $50? But he'd still pay $200 for them if he had no other choice.

          (1/2)

        2. (2/2)

          "If more value was placed on the "gate keepers" of sex, my hypothesis is that men would recognize the value or at least pay a "higher premium" for access."

          Exactly. The law of supply and demand says when supply goes up and demand is constant, the price comes down. If women as a whole cut back the c00chie supply, men won't have as many options and will be required to "pay" more for $ex.

  7. I think men value sex more. Women value themselves but because men tend to view us largely by how we use our bodies, and place labels, worth and value on our p*ssies and not us as actually whole human beings with sexual desires just like them, women have to set a standard so we can get something worth while out of the deal. Even the whole giving it away easy thing is based on how men value you chex. I mean when have women ever called a man easy for wanting to sleep with her on site. Men really have the Madonna/whore complex when it comes to chex, unfortunately women have to deal with the effects of it.

    I think women value emotions then chex but because chex and emotions tend to intertwine, we have to put a value/standard entry fee in hopes of getting what we really want with out getting sued up. I think as a society we feel that men want chex and women want love so each group should put up a fort on what the other deems valuable. (Men not loving just any women that throw him a bone and women not sleeping with every man that she hopes is the one)

    It’s funny a man doesn’t want you to be easy, until it’s his turn to try and get some.

    1. "It’s funny a man doesn’t want you to be easy, until it’s his turn to try and get some." Damn Smilez u need to sell that on T-shirts! *Chuuuuch*

  8. In my opinion, some women give it away more easily than others because well…..we're horny. Some of us have tossed aside the ridiculous impossible double-standards. Some men just can't be pleased. Once I waited an entire year to give it up to some fool and he still somehow managed to treat me like less than a queen afterward. To each their own; men nor women don't define sex!

    1. Lol first they want to know why we or (a woman) gives it up so easy, then their mad when you make them wait past 3 dates. Honestly a man that’s really into you or at least respects you on a certain level isn’t worried about how fast or how slow you give it up to him, he knows for the most part if he has it, he’s just waiting for you to drop them panties. But then again you have to be a good judge of character, which is where some women mess up, and how we get to this whole easy to easy, wait won’t wait blah situation.

      1. Right. It doesn't help that there's a severe eligible black man shortage. Since we women outnumber them, they start "acting up" and start acting like King D!ck in certain circumstances, dictating what they women they're doing should do and when they should do it. I'm glad I stopped following societal rules and expectations…..:)

        1. Please note there's also a severe eligible black woman shortage.

          Just had to point that out. It's truly how the individual views the "eligibility" of a potential suitor… which is another topic altogether.

          It also seems from your initial comment, that you placed your box on a pedestal. So most likely the man only stayed around to cash in his prize for what he saw was due, and was more interested in the chase and conquest than you as a person. Again, purely my outside observation.

          More power to you though. Don't stop what you're doing. I always say, what works for some, won't work for others.

  9. You have some women who believe "I want to wait until I'm in a relationship to give up the cookie." Which of course help weed out the jerks and ho-bags. However, you do have some men who are of a higher value who do not want to wait until they commit to have $ex. So those women who made that commitment feel that this is a good man and they want to keep him so they give it up. It may work out, or a few months down the road because he is a decent guy, he may say that he doesn't want more because you turned him off or whatever, and then you get the wrong idea that if you hadn't given up so soon it would have worked. Or maybe if you did it sooner it would have worked so your stuck trying to figure out how much time needs to pass before you give it to him. Then you have some women who are "$exually liberated" they do not want anything because they are dating around or testing the waters. There could be various reasons why we give it up, but at the end of the day it's not unified. So when I choose to keep it tight, he has options to go to the next chick to get what he wants. I could say all day that my cookie is the freshest or what have you but at the end of the day he is going to find someone to give it up the quickest. We aren't unified in how we value ourselves, but if we did I think a whole lot more men would be committed. lol
    My recent post Children are our future part 2

  10. Both men men and women determine the value of sex, but not in the same time in any given relationship. Though I'd say in general men typically enjoy sex more than they value it. We all either know someone – or have ourselves – who's been used, manipulated, or just down right played over sex. Hell, there are plenty of men who have played boyfriend yet never got anything to show for it; generally we say they're friend-zoned.

    Typically in relationships in which one person feels "they lucked out" or "can't believe s/he picked me" and they truly believe that and it's not just a sweet thing to say, that's the person who values sex more. Unfortunately, this is also the person who is more likely to be mistreated, because s/he may see the relationship is skewed toward the other but "let it go". Knowledge and acknowledge are closely related but worlds apart. So it's not always a matter of why is it given up so easily. It's more a measure of what the "seller" deems they're getting back (or stand to get back) in return from the other person moreso than the sex.

    1. I would tend to disagree. It seems like you are referring to the gratification of the "relationship" and not the sex. At that point, you are referring to emotional subtext, which can be intermingled with sex. However it's more intertwined with the person of affection. Sex is after all supposed to make two people closer in the proper context (ie. marriage and whatnot).

      Overall, I think you are saying that the individual who often feels "mistreated" is the one that gave more of themselves away in the relationship. Their heart, money, sex, etc. to gain the affection of the other "offending" party. That sucks, but hey, love and sex is messy.

  11. Why do women give away sex so easily?

    It's probably b/c women aren't viewing it as "giving", but "getting". You know, b/c we, too, are sexual beings who enjoy sex. When a woman w/ self-esteem and common sense wants commitment from a man, also, she will put the sex at a higher value, not necessarily b/c she wants to, but b/c she's been taught by society that this is the means to an end (a long-term relationship).

    A better question would be why women who value sex and commitment simultaneously "give" away sex so easily.

    1. hollyw: "A better question would be why women who value sex and commitment simultaneously "give" away sex so easily.

      Quote of the day.

  12. The woman has to value herself first she has to know that she is worth more than gold, she cant assume it she has to know this. And therefore she will attract the type of man who sees her worth and is wiling to wait for her. Because a man who leaves you due to a woman not putting out when he gets ready is never worth your time.

  13. Good Morning,

    This is one of my favorite topics, because when you know s*xual / relationship bargaining works, you can master it, and you can transcend it, and get your s*xual needs met.

    There are a lot of moving parts, and describing it would take a book, so I just put it in Essay form.

    It is funny because I owe a chick a tutorial on how this “game” works. I hope she doesn’t see this post.

    1. There are TWO markets at work simultaneously, you have the S*xualMarketPlace (SMP) & MarriageMarketPlace (MMP), where negotiation 101 begins.

    2. Some men & women have more Sexual Market Value (SMV) than others.

    ——————

    3. Women are usually valued for their YOUTH & then their BEAUTY, which men determine.

    Men mostly rate women the same way.

    And in marriage her intangibles (cooperation, acts of service) is more valued in conjunction with her looks.

    Every man wants a young Stacey Dash looking chick (complexion nonwithstanding) on their arm.

    But does not have the social currency to get a Stacey Dash. And keeping her is a whole different ball of wax.

    4. Men are valued for their ability protect & provide resources for a family (MMV.) his social standing in society is also valued.

    Now, when you are talking about a man’s SMV we take about of his social skills (ability to project an attractive vibe that women are compelled to).

    Swagger & machismo is a more familiar term.

    ———-

    5. Now, women value is given to them at birth pretty much, and then after 23-25, her look start to slowly decline, whereas her ability to bear children starts to decline.

    Looks are great indicator of fertility.

    Men have little value starting out, and then they accumulate value over time. (Resources, Social Skills)

    6. Now, some men & women are valued more a s*x material, women would never consider him a serious relationship.

    Bad boys/jerks & wh*res/sl*ts (women who sleep with men for money/or for the pleasure) USUALLY fall into this category.

    Yes, if you are more handsome, beautiful or valuable to society you can “buck” the system (ie Kim Kardashian)

    Exception doesn’t swallow the rule.

    7. Then you have men & women who are more valuable for marriage than they are for s*x.

    Nerds/nice/decent/good/working class men &

    chaste, emotionally healthy women go here.

    This comment is going too long. I’ll wrap it up.

    ——————–

    I think the reason why women give up s*x easier than past times is simply because it BENEFITS her in the SHORT-TERM.

    A lot of middle of the road women (4-6s)*, are chasing after high-value men (7-9s)* (when they are young) & the only bargain chip they have, is the possibility of giving that man s*x.

    And a lot of women are mate-sharing with this man, with gives him incentive not to commit to any of these women, because he is already getting his needs met.

    And then these women believe that when their looks are about to fade, that some nice/decent/good/ working class dude will commit.

    So, it is a “have your cake & eat it” too mentality.

    I hope that helps.

    SSTTE.

    * Value system is from 1-10

    1. I actually get this.

      However, you neglect the class of black women that obtain (multiple) degree(s), have no chlidren, well-traveled, etc… [aka 'bougie" women]. Women that feel entitled to the high-value men (7-9s).

      Interesting synopisis though

      1. @hairbear_FTL

        You can write a book on this concept, and I had to cut my comment short. We all have lives to tend to.

        But female s*xual mating entitlement ACROSS THE BOARD. Whether she is a “9” or a “4”, also factor in 30+ year old women who demand the moon (7-9s) from men, but don’t have the rocket fuel (4-6) to get or stay in orbit.

  14. Hey Wiz,
    First, before I begin, I just would like you and everyone reading this to please grip up a copy of "The Evolution of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating", by Prof. David Buss: http://www.amazon.com/The-Evolution-Of-Desire-Str… in my view, no "relationship blogger" can do his/her job well, without this vitally important work.

    Second: the problem with your premise is that the Nordstrom sex Women and the Wal-Mart sex Women, are vastly different in the eyes of most Men; when it comes to sex, they are NOT. Only Women place a higher value on the quality of sex, in aggregate; for the vast majority of Men, it's about getting some, period, dot. Recall Kim Kardashian's necrophiliac act with Ray-J? Did it look like it mattered all that much to Ray if KK simply laid there like a dead fish? To ask the question is to answer it – so long as she's hot and shows up, she's good to go. Being a freak in the bed is a nice plus, but by no means a bottomline requirement for most Men.

    Third: the real problem you and others in the Afrosphere are groping toward through a glass darkly, is the fact that the sexual marketplace (SMP) has drastically changed – and this is especially true for Black Americans. Simply put, Black Men and Women don't need each other in order to survive or thrive. I've discussed this over at my place, and it merits much thought and discussion: http://obsidianraw.bravejournal.com/entry/126832

    Because Black Women are now in our time fully self-supporting, they no longer need to "settle" for Men who were in their mamas or grandmamas era, were indeed a catch, if for no other reason than he had a steady job and would love the kids. And this is a good thing.

    But – and this is vitally important given the current discussion – there is a flipside. Black Men no longer need to settle for Women who do not meet their needs either – chief and foremost of whom, is sex. A Black Women unwilling to put out in a timely fashion is setting herself up to pricing herself out of the SMP in a big way, barring other very important factors that she largely has little control over – for example, her objective beauty rating on the scale of 0-10. And even that has taken a few dings in the age of the Wal-Martification of Sex, as you've noted above – if a really hot Sista makes it too hard to tap that, a Brotha can and will most definitely settle for that passable 5 Ratchet Chica making eyes from across the floor at the club. After all, beauty is only a light switch away.

    There's more that I could say, but I'll hold here. Much to learn, we Black folks have, on what it truly means, to be free.

    Holla back

    O.

  15. Hm. In an era where women can be self-sufficient and individuals in their own right, I don't think women equate valuing themselves to when they sex. Contrary to popular societal belief, a woman can value herself entirely regardless of what she does with her sex life. So in my mind, no one values sex more than the other. Both want it and engage when they so choose.

    1. I will say that when women say things like "If I don't have sex with him, he'll leave" that is an entirely different issue that I don't think has much to do with 'the value of sex.' This is a woman that makes decisions to elicit some type of response from someone else as opposed to making decisions for herself. Another problem entirely.

      I'm a 'waiter' because I like to keep a clear head when getting to know someone. I know myself. I make decisions to help myself, not to try to 'keep a man.' However, I know women who are very big on making sure the sexual chemistry is there. They often feel they are wasting their time by getting to know someone to find out that aren't satisfied in other areas. They'll have sex within the first few dates because that makes sense to them.

      I absolutely respect their decisions. We are both making decisions for ourselves – not to elicit some type of response from a guy. In both cases, a man may leave, a man may stay. And women need to come to terms with that. I have no problem telling a guy, this is what it is. If this doesn't work for you, I'm sorry. You should probably find a woman that moves more at your pace.

      Trying to wager sex as a means to get a man to do something doesn't seem logical. (Interesting that men are suggesting this theory though). He is going to do what he wants regardless. You have two options; leave or stay. If a guy isn't really what I am looking for, I'm not going to try to change him. I'm going to accept that that is who he is, leave, and be with someone that fits more of what I like. Simple.

  16. "In my (biased) opinion, women determine the value of sex. Using an economic analogy, in the case of heterosexual couples, women are the owners and men are the customers."

    When my friends bring this up, I'm such a broken record (do they make records anymore?).

    Bear with me.

    I don't want to get off on a rant here, but think about how we are all socialized to think about relationships when we are young. Men are tacitly or overtly expected to buy things (or be nice) in order to get conversation, sex, etc from women; women are socialized that unless a man buys her something, he is not worth her time. And herein lies the problem with "economic" models that objectify things that are subjective.

  17. Complaints about nice guys acting "owed" time/attention/sex are happening alongside complaints about “traditional dating being dead”, but such complaints ignored the fact that THAT system was broken for this reason. It’s called the “commodity model”, the inherited idea that sex is something that women produce and men consume; a “thing” we as men earn, purchase, negotiate, or strong-arm from women rather than something that two people who are into each other share.

  18. It’s all reduced to a input/output transaction. Movies, video games and pop culture reinforce it, too (Rescue the princess/repel the alien invasion/defeat the supervillain/win the step competition/graduate from school or just clean your apartment and you will get sexed down by the damsel in distress/hot young intern/cheerleader who used to be with the asshole, etc. as a reward.) It's a model/metaphor that provides us meaning in the chaos of dating and mating, AND I submit that it is also a prison that we cannot see, touch, or taste.

  19. I have no easy solutions. I am not advocating any airy-fairy free-love. But this model horribly oversimplifies. It could be that women just want sex and sex itself from time to time, but prefer situations where it is 1) safe and 2) they know it will be pleasurable. (research bears this out, but I won't link-ain't got time for that. ) A committed relationship offers that option (or the possibility or illusion of it). If sex (and women) wasn't something to extract or "wheel and deal" and was just what happened as an extension of a connection, then what would be possible?

  20. I think we all would be less neurotic about 90 day rules, men would be less obsessed with sex/women as objects to validate their masculinity (and consequently do less dumb shit), women would be less anxious about sex in general because their value wouldn't rest in how much sex they don't have… and everybody would get laid in ways that feel good to them without working so hard to save face. Men would be less frustrated about niceness as a "currency" not having the same exchange rate as "swag", and women wouldn't resent men for having to negotiate those hidden agendas. Our metaphors affect how we approach the world. If we see sex as a zero-sum game that women "rule", it's a set up for dating and mating to be hostile and antagonistic (I want something they have, they want something else). It's a set-up to do the bare minimum to get my needs met. If women like sex as much (or more) as they do in my world, then we want the same thing and it's a collaboration rather than a war-game.

    Of course, I could be wrong…

  21. 1) Who decides the value of sex, men or women?: We have to remember some historical context here. Before the 70s, easy sex at modern levels didn't happen. One of the direct selling points of feminism, from the 70s unti today, was that women are empowered when they embrace sex as men do. The idea was that chastity was a way that men control women. So if men are less concerned with chastity and men are powerful then women can claim/gain power by being sexually unrestricted like men. So the answer is, women, at least partially, adopted the sexual values of men so both sexes technically decided the value of sex.

    2) If women truly value sex more than men, then why do (some) women give sex away so easily?: Who decided that women value sex more than men and what does that truly mean? Many may disagree but my opinion is that men value sex more for its own sake whereas women value sex as a stepping stone to a relationship or resources. I say this because, if you look in our society, when women are able to provide their own resources and security, they are not as concerned if they don't have a man or regular sex whereas women without resources/security give away sex much more easily.

    1. Point 2 is a killer.

      I will say this: Value in this case is relative. I won’t say either side values sex more, but differently. I’ve seen women be deceived and lied to in relationships or the getting acquainted phase, and when things don’t work out, they’ll take solace in the fact they didn’t sleep with the guy (if they stop dealing with each other before the act takes place). There is the idea that some have that they did some miraculous service by sleeping with a guy or they “gave him some” like they didn’t get something out of it too. (If done right).

  22. First, WIP, I want to let you know you've been on the nail as of lately brother.

    I see good points being made, a lot of truth being provided.

    Keeping with the economic model, the value is determined by the marketplace. I just don't think many women expected men to expand the marketplace to East Africa, Brazil, DR, PR, Southeastern Asia, etc.

    We're not our fathers generation: guys who would rather restrict themselves to a certain model (nuclear family) to live up to standards and expectations set by a society that doesn't value us, all the while they're having affairs, secondary families, etc.

    There are a lot of things to nitpick about our generations (generation x -millennials), but then there's that one great attribute: honesty.

    Bond.

    My recent post The Seven Days

  23. I do think women value sex more than men because of the emotional attachment. The average man could sleep with a lot of women and not really have a conscience as to who he actually has feelings for. He may or may not get sprung on one or two. A woman usually puts emotional ties into it. You could have a woman who's your booty call, nothing more nothing less, and yet when/if she finds out you're messing with other women she may get upset. Women, not all are territorial when it comes to sex. How many guys cry a river because they slept with a female and she cut him off? Now reverse that…bigger difference isn't it?
    My recent post WTF Am I Listening To?! – 10 Dumbest Rap Songs Ever Made

  24. My take is we want sex but we have to play the role as a "good" girl. Simply because its been conditioned in us to be wholesome and "pure." However sex is sex. Some enjoy it more than others. Some women can go without months of having sex and some days. I think everyone value sex to some extinct but I think women value it more but we are still going to do what we do.
    My recent post 5 signs a man is into you!

  25. Men will continue to miss out on a great thing by overlooking the women who choose to wait for a commitment before they offer up. Speaking from my own personal experience, I noticed that when dating I could continue to get men to court me for months (somewhere between a 6-9 month time frame w/o giving it up) . Some of those men I liked. But then I would meet a man that I really liked and my "waiting rule" went out the window. I've been in a relationship with this man for a year now but I know how stingy men are with relationship titles and they can and will continue to miss out on a good thing if they pull away from women who arent offering it all upfront.

    1. "But then I would meet a man that I really liked and my 'waiting rule' went out the window."

      In general, men are aware of this common phenomenon–which is a main reason that those with options believe it makes little sense to abstinently wait for an extended time. Your "window" has already been open–and, while some guy waits, might still be open to another man. Understandably, most guys would rather be that other man.

      "Men will continue to miss out on a great thing by overlooking the women who choose to wait for a commitment before they offer up."

      What would these men be missing that is less available elsewhere? In fact, you've implicitly made the case that men have reason to interpret extended waiting as a negative indicator of interest–since women tend not to expect a man they "really" like to wait for an extended time.

      Your honesty is helpful. SBM is on fire lately, while others in the Afrosphere are preoccupied with navel gazing, self-promotion, and dead horses.

      1. @BP

        Thanks again, you beat me to it.

        Btw, @Adarlingelle is not saying anything original

        I am as surprised & welcomed by her honesty as you are.

        All that being said, men should court her while banging other broads to fill the void. It is what it is.

        1. @Adonis I read the article that you referenced. I did not agree with the parts about screwing men that you dont like on the 1st night or very soon after meeting them because as the writer suggets "you dont really care about what these men think of you and the filter is off".
          I dont sleep with men that I dont like AT ALL. I'm actually replused at the thought. If I dont like you, you dont deserve my time, let alone my body. yuck

        2. @Adarlingelle

          First of all, women do not talk at face value. So, you have to read between the lines.

          She did like those guys she slept with on the first night, she just realize that they were poor relationship material, and used sleeping with them as a method to ward them off.

          But gave the “good” guys a harder time. Price discrimination. Which is okay, because when men find out, they will respond in kind. Which women abhor.

          ———————-

          You on the other hand, make some guys wait 6-9 months because they are not all that attractive to sleep with, but have other redeeming qualities.

          Whereas you give it up to more attractive suitors less than a month.

          It is still price discrimination. It is just that you are hung up on the falsehood that she didn’t like the guys she slept with.

          That is CODE for , they were great s*x material, just good relationship material.

          So, she liked all the guys she dated. Just put them in different categories.

        3. @ADarlingelle

          For the record, I don’t mind courting a girl that I really like. It is par for the course.

          However, if I find out that a dude has hit that with less effort/investment, or there is a s*xtape of her floating around somewhere. Or she has done s-x acts to a man, that I have not yet been privy to, it’s all good, I’ll still play the gentleman until I tap that.

          But marriage, and a monogamous long-term relationship is off the table.

          I refuse to pay a dollar for a newspaper, another man paid five cents for.

          And I will surely encourage other black men to do the same.

      2. When I stated that "Men will continue to miss out on a great thing…" I was hoping to convey that some women might like or really like a guy and still withhold sex. Now I'm not saying that men can't get sex elsewhere, I'm simply saying that holding out doesnt mean that a woman is a prude or that she isnt particulary interested in a man. Sometimes fear (not of perfromance) can prevent you from taking that step with a man that you like as well.

        1. @Adarlingelle

          And while conveying one point, you exposed another issue that men have when investing in women.

          Most men do not want to be your 6th round draft pick. A loser’s choice.
          And if you make one man wait & another man hit it in the first few weeks, it is not going to go over well when the dutiful courting man finds out.

        2. What about the idea that a woman's needs/wants may change between men? Or the revelation that a woman giving it up easily always leads to hurt and lonliness?
          Coulda sworn doing the exact same thing over and over but expecting different results was the definitin of insanity… ijs

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