On a prior post, It’s Ok to Be Superficial, an interesting comment thread transpired on why marriage occurs so late in the black community. I thought it was interesting and needed minimal context for everyone to follow along. I’ve selected certain excerpts from the 12-reply comment thread as follows:
Wildflower: I don’t think men are saying no to the idea of marriage, a lot of them are not mentally or financially ready for the responsibility. There are a lot of women who are marriage material but that doesn’t men that a man is gonna swoop down and put a ring on it just because she is ready.
12 Point Buck: I respectfully disagree– I think more and more men in the USA and in some parts of Europe ARE saying no to the idea of marriage.
Why this is happening is a whole different discussion, but I see the trend quite plainly.
Wildflower: Agree to disagree?
12 Point Buck: We can agree to disagree.
But I did want to point out this government census on marriage in the USA, which shows that the overall marriage rate is on a downward trend.
Given that men are usually the ones to propose marriage, I feel like this chart is decent evidence that there is a trend for guys choosing to not get married.
WisdomIsMisery: If I may jump in this thread real quick @WildFlower and @12PointBuck, because you’re both right and this is an area I’ve written on numerous times – my most recent write up being here, The State of Black Marriage. Excuse the plug.
In Europe, people of all races have statistically and historically had lower marriage rates than in the US so that’s not the best apples to apples comparison. That said, even in the US marriage rates are down (as we all probably know). However, down doesn’t equate to obsolete as some “the sky is falling” types in the blogosphere have preached. Going by the stats (and facts, if you bother with those sorts of things), men and consequently women, are marrying later in life but by and large over 90% of people of all races will marry within their lifetime.
Now Wildflower said an interesting statement, a theme of which I’ve seen on a lot of comment threads on this site and abroad: “There are a lot of women who are marriage material but that doesn’t mean that a man is gonna swoop down and put a ring on it just because she is ready.”
While I agree with this statement, as it pertains to men – especially black men – I have seen a theme and/or a belief that men now feel they need more financial and career accomplishments before they can have a wife; whereas rumor has it other races believe a wife is generally a component of, not a mutual exclusive goal of measuring their success.
So my question is – and I’m sure I’ll eventually write about this – are these men operating wholly independent of reality or do they (black men, etc) think this way because their primary counterpart of the opposite sex have demonstrated that this is of value to them as well? Stated another way, do black men marry later because they believe (rightly or wrongly) they need more financial, material, and career successes in order to get a black wife?
Just seems strange to me that black men would randomly or arbitrarily place material and financial success over marriage. Anyone is welcome to respond. Ill address in a full write up later.
– sent from iPhone
Amaris79: I am going to have to do some substantial digging to find this study but the general theory is that material STABILITY is emphasized on both ends (in their own special ways) due to the unique volatility of the Black American existence. Namely, there exists an underlying fear that everything could be lost in a single moment, so they compulsively seek whatever they believe to be stability/security to counteract that fear BEFORE placing someone else into their mix. It is different for other races-in America specifically-as there is a belief that either a “fallback” exists (whether through parents, family inheritance, etc) or that since they er..came from no bottom they can thrive under any circumstance without shame.
Now, I can neither tell or explain how that translated into the bling/no scrubs versions that seem to be so pervasive, but whatevs.
12 Point Buck: “are these men operating wholly independent of reality or do they (black men, etc) think this way because their primary counterpart of the opposite sex have demonstrated that this is of value to them as well?”
I think it may be something altogether different, but still marginally related to meeting women’s value expectations. To explain, I will need to make a simple, reasonable assumption, so please bear with me:
I’d reasonably assume that women are attracted to men who have “more” than they do in some very specific areas. Namely; more height, more money, more social status, more professional success, more ambition, more power, etc.
Now if this assumption is true for a particular woman, then what happens when she excels in life, and acquires a high level of money, social status, professional success, ambition, etc. for herself?
If the original assumption still stands, then a lot of men will necessarily fall short in comparison to her accomplishments, and consequently will be less attractive in her eyes.
Therefore, in a lot of ways, it would make sense for men to delay marriage until they get to this “high-value” level. Because by doing so, they maximize the number of women who are attracted to them, giving the best possible conditions for finding an ideal wife.
tldr; delaying marriage to obtain more life success = more and better options for selecting a wife.
Wildflower: WIM, I didn’t see your post until after I commented but it’s on point.
I know this may be the worst analogy ever but I’m trying to make a point here. Every time I visit a church, I make it my business to see if the pastor is married or not– and in my 30 years I’ve only seen one that was single. Why? Because within the church having a wife is smiled upon. If we were raised seeing marriage as a good thing, most black men would settle down (in my opinion). But most of us was raised by single mothers so our view on marriage is a bit distorted. How can we admire something we are not familiar with?
I remember a white male friend of mine told me that his 33 year old sister was close to depression because she was not married. Now in our community, that is nothing new to us. I was shocked to hear ole girl was 2 seconds away from popping anxiety medicine but we live in two different worlds when it comes to our expectations on marriage.
@mpj2k4: I disagree too. For example I used to work in a call center and there were dozens of pretty women above thirty that was looking to finally settle down and I met some guys in that age group that had their stuff together and they wasn’t thinking about marriage. The ratio was too good for the men that they wanted to just have fun. With divorce being high and drama that can bring, added in with the ratio of women looking for good brothas, I don’t think men really want to get married.
Wildflower: I hate to pull the race card @mpj2k4 but are you referring to black men or men in general?
And no disrespect to anyone but I personally think that black men don’t value marriage. Having kids, yes but having a wife no. It’s rare to see a white man in his 30’s single as opposed to black men.
Also, it’s not like black men have a high history of marriage anyway hence all the single parent homes. So this is not a trend that just started today, this has been an ongoing issue.
I highlight this comment thread for a number of reasons. For beginners, I like seeing intelligent, respectful debates occurring on SBM (thank you for this!). Secondly, this is a popular sentiment – rumor or fact – that I’ve heard expressed on SBM, on-line, and off-line, “black men don’t prioritize getting married.” Lastly, if true, I have no idea why this is occurring.
We can debate a lot of things but for the sake of today’s debate I’ve included a 2001 census table below (there may be a more recent table but I’m too lazy to look for it and the stats have more than likely only gotten worse) which shows that black men and women marry later than every other race. I already know some of you will dismissively say, “You can’t put an age on marriage!” and I’ll grant you that opinion. However, even by age 40, only 75% of black men will be married. The next closest, Hispanic men, is 86% by this age. Further, since men of all races traditionally ask women of all races for their hand in marriage, the delay in marriage is likely driven by men.
Today I have one simple question: Why are black men avoiding marriage longer than every other race?
So… If I want to get married before I hit the 30-34 age bracket, I should consider dating other races of men???? *adjusts matchdotcom search engine* (j/k)
And if possible, I dont want the comments section spammed with this either. Its not even dialogue anymore, just spam. The topic at hand is why black men delay getting married. whether a black woman wants to "date outside" is completely irrelevant here.
the comment was tongue-in-cheek, relax
I guess dewfish didn't know what j/k meant, LOL…
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Absolutely. Unless you look like a young Stacey Dash.
Black men will have lock a Stacey Dash down even if it makes no sense.
Go get you a white man if you can help it. I heard they get to the point FAST!
Nah not true Adonis.
A know a lot of good looking women who are single, have never married, no bf, etc.
My recent post How Black Girls Rock
And I promise you, I can see exactly how it was her fault why she is single.
Women are lazy as hell when it comes to dating & only improve when in the 11th hour.
Scared of rejection, they don't speak, they aren't open to being approached, they expect the man to do everything from start to finish in the dating cycle, and only ramp up their efforts in that proverbial 11th hour when the biological clock turns into a time bomb around age 35, and they are suddenly cougars, preying on every man — available or not.
Men, in general, who hold a high opinion of themselves and get plenty of attention from women typically aren't in any rush to get married. And since worthwhile women who are desirable marriage partners are dwindling, can you blame them?
I get so sick and tired of people acting like Black men are the only ones who don't marry fresh out of high school. Men in general are waiting, for a myriad of reasons — some the same across the board (finances being the common denominator), partly due to so many women running around saying that you better not even think about approaching them without making six figures, have a house, two cars, a high profile job and a sizable 401(k) and sizable other "assets", if you get my drift.
Why even bother when that sentiment is so prevalent amongst women nowadays? Even amongst those who utter the PC nonsense to the contrary, their actions still fall in line with the aforementioned superficiality?
I know men like to be financially stable before they get married, I can see the uneasiness when a man feels like he is not enough for you.
BUT if a guy has all his stuff together then I won't expect him to be packing lol, I will work with what he has.
I actually don't expect a man to have it ALL together, maybe some parts, but I will agree with other woman that when a man has it together he is easier to deal with- not always talking about he is broke, complaining about school (even higher education). I would prefer if the guy was done with all that. Partly because he will need so much support that I don't end up getting any support from him for my goals.
Perhaps there is a man out there that can be mutually supportive while we both try to reach our goals but i haven't met him yet.
I love a fine black man. But yes girl! You must open your options up asap lol.
I see beautiful black women slept on by black men. There could be a variety of reasons that could be all very valid but black women cant wait on when the time is right.
I can actually almost pinpoint the exact moment a man has ruled me out and for some reason I am winning with other races, losing with black men. It kind of saddens me but I have moved past that.
I used to think WHY!? But its cool lol…kinda.
I feel that this article isn't fair because women tend to gravitate toward emotionally unavailable black men doesn't mean black men in general hesitate to get married. I am a black man and I've been wanting to get married for years yet I tend to attract women who wasn't mature or ready so I wouldn't categorize them as a group. But it would be nice to find a decent woman who would like to settle down .
This is a great piece, and being a journalist, I love that WIM pulled out a Census chart to back it all up!!! Cause its not that Black men aren't getting married, they just wait until a very late age to actually do it. Anyways, I think their are many reasons why Black men are waiting longer than any other race to get married, and here are my 2 favorites:
1) Marriage isn't commonplace in the Black family: We learn our morals, behaviors and beliefs from our family. Because many of us Black children group up in single family homes, we never get the chance to see the dynamics between a husband and wife, we never get to see what it takes to make a marriage work, marriage isn't the standard or the norm in our homes. In my home the standard/norm was to go to college. It was never pressured on me to go to college one day, but it was considered a norm, a natural step to adulthood that I willingly followed. I think this is how other races view marriage and why other races get married sooner, it is a norm in their family home.
2) Feminism: As a female, I am blessed to live in a world where I have inifinite possibilites and equality(mostly), but I think it has made it more challenging for me to find a husband. I think men do marry when they feel are financially stable and ready to take care of a wife and children. Just like the comments said in the post, because women are reaching a higher level financially, men are finding it more difficult to bring something comparable to the table. I think men of other races are more likely….or more willing to marry before they are financially stable. For example, my Latina friends, who are 25 like me, are married. Their husbands may still be in college or working regular jobs, but they are married and struggling together.
not sure I agree with this.
1. I grew up in a household with both parents, and would regularly visit my grandparents who were also married for many years, so it is not that I don't know what marriage looks like. I definitely dont see marriage as "abnormal".
2. some men are willing to get married before they are financially stable, but that can be for many reasons. I personally feel the two main issues involved here are money and trust. depending on how much they trust their partner, some men feel comfortable approaching women with little to their name and "building" with them. it kind of depends on the women he meets and the overall vibe of the dating environment. if you are in a dating environment where the women will not even acknowledge you, must less build a future with you, until you pull up in the fancy car with the tailored suits and the stable income, you simply acknowledge the environment, and adjust accordingly. If that means putting marriage on hold until you can pull up in the fancy car, suit, etc., then it is merely seen as the price of admission. All signs point to "you can't play this game until you have acquired A, B, and C first." That man would not be making any judgements of the people in the environment, but simply realizing that this is how you play the game that has been presented before you.
I really agree with your second point
As a woman, I see it as my job to manage my own greed. When I was single I did it b/c I thought single men saw "high maintenance" women as scary. As a married woman I know that my hub feels my desires as pressure to provide them for me and I don't want him to worry. So as a rule, I've always tried to maintain myself by managing my desires.
I think there wouldn't be so much of a "black woman can't get married" crises if more women would find a good man who is a good provider and teach themselves to *be happy* with what he can afford.
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American (Black) Women are not interested in “responsible, provider” men until they are on their last legs. Black men have little to do with poor choices, we just want to be the best poor choice she has ever made.
I love this, amicus82.
I'm "meh" on your first point. I understand where your coming from, but I do think the situation is different for everyone. Let's face it not everyone wants to get married or will get married, and many times it doesn't matter whether you came from a two-parent or single-parent home. I mean if everyone chose to be heterosexual because their parents are heterosexual, then we wouldn't have any gay people, right? (Sorry bad example 😛 but I'll use it anyway) So the fact that you don't find marriage an asset despite growing up in the "ideal" home, still doesn't speak for people who did not grow up in a two-parent home.
However, I am totally with you on your 2nd point
youre kind of making my point for me. One has nothing to do with the other. so the idea that men dont want marriage because they dont know what marriage "looks like" is a little off base.
I agree with both of your points. From my dating experiences I've found that guys who have had parents or others very close around them who have been in a long term marriage tend to understand the dynamics and importance of marriage and they're more likely to want to be married. Would be interesting to know the stats in those cases. No marriage is perfect and i was a product of a single mother but my brother has been married for over 30+ years and seeing that up close has shown me what it takes…in good and bad times to make things work. My mother was all about "get your education first" then you can worry about marriage/kids b/c you can do that anytime. However with other groups…they focus on you can do all the above and place importance on marriage.
Piggybacking on your last point about other races view on marriages differing from black women. My own father, who raised me practically as a single parent, and who has been married three times, has told me straight up, to not get married. He says that the men out here aren't stepping up to the plate and doing what is necessary. A lot of them can't provide correctly and that they only safe bet is for me to instead of thinking about marriage, I should think about getting my career popping off and in good standing. because to just depend on some man to like me enough and "act right" is not a good plan. I think that a lot of times, and I'm sure statistics and everyday life speaks to this, black men generally can't really be depended on to do the family thing the right way. I mean, we can't even really compare ourselves to our white counterparts in the marriage and family department. It's completely different fields. Historically, marriages and legacies were built by having the man bring home the bacon, while the woman raised the kids, who would then go on to be productive members of society in their designated roles. Black women and black families have never had that luxury nor do we operate like that.
also, using my father as an example. Good man he is, great father he is. Does not see marriage as an asset either. Sees it as a liability. forget the fact that he keeps dating diff versions of the same chick. Some things never change, at 50 years old, men still be captivated by a big butt and a smile. Go out get a big butt with no brains and reckless spending habits and then be looking like, "who, why, what?", when da ish don't work out. I think that race and economics have a big, like huge part in how men view marriage. They are supposed to be the breadwinners but it seems like they will have a hard time bringing home saltines. Aren't black women out earning and out degreeing black men these days? Of course they don't want to get married, they can't afford it. and who wants to feel inadequate in what is historically considered one of their main jobs and responsibilities in life?
exactly. dont fall into the "social norms" trap. can't live your life based on someones else's expectations.
which is what I was saying before. it all comes down to money. white families generally have more wealth than black families, so if the marriage doesnt work out, its not as big a hit financially. a lot of the guys delaying marriage are doing because of what your father said. they heard the same thing growing up, so the money comes first. like I said, great if you can afford it, but marriage is an option, not a necessity.
Clearly we are in agreement for the most part. But here is the shade…two incomes are better than one. And it's easier to build as a team than it is to build alone. And until we can figure that out, and get that ish together, we will forever be a people who are as another commenter said, "starting over with each generation." Until we figure out and acknowledge the benefits of a two parent-two income home(or one big income home with two parents) we will forever be race of people with high ass prison rates and out of wedlock single mother rates. Which means we will on the whole, continue to be a race in poverty.
once again, that depends on the people involved and the overall dating environment. if the prevailing mentality is, "don't approach me until you have X, Y, and Z, a lot guys are going to do exactly that and not approach until everything is "together". If that takes a good number of years, then thats what it takes. I am sure there are guys out there who have no problem "marrying broke and building together", its just that you are going to need someone who is definitely in your corner because the stakes are a lot higher if things go south. the current dating environment just doesnt really allow for that.
Exactly. Very few women do that, so it ain't got nothing to do with women with more earning power and what not (bravo, you are doing what everyone else does). It has more to do with the attitude that they give off to guys who don't have the same — and most of the time, they won't get with you unless you are BETTER OFF, even then — which is why you see a number of Black men getting with women who aren't Black and don't place a premium on such fleeting, superficial things that everyone else virtually takes for granted (although taking that income for granted is flawed, it is what White, Latina, and some Asian women are doing).
That's the REAL truth.
More like women shit on guys who DON'T have their finances in the best of shape.
But seriously why would you want to be with someone that doesn't have their finances in shape? One of the largest factors resulting in divorce and stress is money related. Get your self together before you jump into a relationship. Male or female.
I'm glad you brought this up. Its true that most women wouldnt want a man who doesnt have his finances in shape. But the big misconception I hear from women is the assumption that guys feel the same way about it.
In general, I dont think men really care THAT much if a woman is educated, ambitious, or has money. It's not nearly as important that a woman demonstrate that she can provide or handle finances. It may be a small plus if she can, but its not a big minus if she cant.
Combine this idea with the fact that women initiate the majority of divorces (something around 70%), and a whole different picture emerges: When the money gets funny, women start rocking the boat.
Which is one of the CHIEF reasons Black men don't marry.
Most men couldn't care less what a woman earns. In reality, it's her mentality (particularly if she earns more, or much more than he), along with trustworthiness and having her unconditional support that we men care about. That she is making a lot of money is just an added bonus, but it is not critical, and often times can be a drawback (as there is usually a major time commitment AWAY from him and home, in order to earn that money).
Totally agree with you @12 Point
Therefore @mdwright212 wouldn't it behoove a man to marry someone with some sort of financial savvy, and have a woman who could at least provide for herself provisionally??
I always say if a man is providing for a woman initially, then if they divorce he should be obligated to provide for her still (for some time). Why not, you basically coddled the woman you placed on an equal status as your partner.
In other words, you reap what you sow.
I can attest to money straining a relationship.
When men are not financially stable they feel inadequate like they can't support you. When they fail to realize they can still support you mentally.
As a result the man will start to hide things, all centering around money. He can't do this or can't do that, EVEN IF YOU SAY YOU WILL PAY, he would rather not go just so he doesn't have to be seen out in public with YOU paying for HIM.
So yea definite strain on my ended bf gf relationship, can't imagine the strain it would be if I would have been married.
Are you serious do you think marriage is just based on good feelings?
As a black man, I feel that marriage overall has become more liability than asset. There just seem to be more risks associated with marriage than rewards. At this point, marriage is more of a luxury than a necessity. Its a nice feather in your cap if you can afford it, but honestly, I cant find an actual need/tangible upside to getting married.
can you list some risk?
probabaly the main one is financial. especially if you choose the wrong one, even if they seemed like the right one at first. and many would say, "if you dont have much, what have you got to lose?" the problem is that, the less you have, the less you can afford to lose. as I said before, if you have the disposable income to where you will be okay no matter how the marriage turns out, good for you. to many others, it is increasingly becoming a gamble not worth taking.
And once again, this isnt just about risk. the question is, do the rewards outweigh the risk?
Married men have been shown to live longer/healthier, get better promotions (and faster), get better tax benefits (especially if y'all have kids) , better mortgage and refinancing rates, better credit, better benefits, etc. Like if we're looking at this completely cold-blooded, the whole long-term "we go together" move isn't really advantageous to anyone except maybe your heart. You can't even say finances, because prenups were invented to address that. I just think it comes down to you not knowing if you can trust a woman enough to make that leap with her, which is a whole different can of beans – in which case, don't get married. And that's totally fine!
I don't think the relationship between being married and getting better refinancing rates are necessarily as causal TODAY in my opinion than it was in the past.
"You can't even say finances, because prenups were invented to address that."
Sounds great in theory, but sticking with reality many folk aren't very keen on the prenup route. The whole "oh he doesn't think it will last?" discussion comes into play.
I'm not necessarily agreeing with @dewfish here, but he is simply stating he believes he can accomplish all of his life goals and obtain a certain level of financial success/wealth and not risk it being chopped in half due to a "misunderstanding" lol.
So in essence both of you are kinda saying the same thing really…just taking a different route to come to the same conclusion….lack of trust.
Agree to an extent. All of this discussion is moot when you find a woman you trust 100%. If you can't find a woman to do that with, then don't get married.
And the refinancing rates I believe applies. More likely than not, your available credit will increase when you get married (and your credit score jumps due to debt-to-credit minimization). Both crucial factors in availability of refinancing, interest rates, alladat.
I'm just saying that the whole risk/reward debate we're having here is moot to me. There's only a fear or risk if you don't believe in your partner. And if that's the case then marriage should not be a discussion.
Refinancing rates was just a general example to make a point that relative to a generation or two ago being married isn't as much as a deciding factor for the local banker to approve or deny you a loan, etc. So no, their not "as" causal as I stated…didn't mean to suggest (if I did) that it wasn't a factor period….just less so.
And I agree with the risk/reward thing being moot, but many folk like to look at things from a "worst case scenario" lens. Natuallly one assumes whomever they marry they will be able to trust 100%, but if there is anything constant in life it's change. "Wort case scenario" guy over analyzes probably and outthinks his way out of a successful relationship/marriage more often than not I would surmise.
Like you said, marriage only works if you pick the right partner, which I would pick a woman who makes more than me financially.
Pre-nups can be/have challenged, and will/have gotten thrown out.
It’s about incentives. And divorce laws inspires women to divorce because their are real advantages for a woman to pull the divorce grenade.
And we gotta stop with the good/bad woman myth. No such thing.
Interesting you would say that. From conversations with my friends, we've noticed that when we make more than the men we date, they are more insecure and "emotional".
Just pointing out the flip side, that someone who makes more than you, may not want to date you. It depends. To each their own. Good luck with that, sure you'll find that one though.
For the last time, this "insecure", "emotional" and "intimidated" talk has got to stop.
The actual sentiment that you are seeing is men being PUT OFF by the attitudes of most of the women who run around touting their degrees, jobs and income as if it defines them completely.
No one cares. You are an adult. Kudos for doing what adults are expected to do.
Men don't look to women for financial stability. It is an incidental benefit, not a dealbreaker, as it is with many women nowadays (despite your factual mention of women earning more than men often nowadays).
You sound mad… I was merely stating what my friends and I talked about.
Anywho, in my opinion, I don't believe in touting my money, degrees, jobs and what not. However, If I can afford to go on vacations often, and go out, and shop, and a guy gets the boo boo face. What am I going to do. NOT do those things to make a man feel better? One guy seriously funded an entire trip on his CC, to keep up with me. I didn't ask him to do so. Or they start commenting how you shop too much, etc. Live within your means. I do.
From what I understand, guys like to provide for a woman correct. And if a woman can do all the things that a guy wants to be able to do, then at times they can become a little disillusioned, like "what do you need me for". Likewise, a woman has to know when to step back to let a man be a man, however, at the end of the day "aint nobody got time for that"
Not mad at all, because it's a non-issue to me. I am speaking for scores of men when I make these statements.
Please tell to all the mamas boys living in their mother basements.
Child support, alimony, the rise of women who cheat on men who are faithful to them, etc. etc. etc.
You sound bitter as hell. For the sake of women everywhere, we are okay if you decide not to marry at all.
Not bitter at all. Just observant. There is a very stark difference.
However, this kind of response by you is typical when someone speaks the truth. You respond with scathing, pithy remarks.
For someone to which the generalizations do not apply, the response is either apathy or in kind.
So you tell ME who's bitter?
I am not following your ass up. Get some help and do better.
If it don't apply, let it fly. You are the only one on here firing off on people like this, yet you call people bitter?
Man, this sounds a lot like what I said a while back on here, LOL!
Black men look at marriage like a luxury rather than a necessity.
I weep for the future…really. This makes me very sad. Smdh…
To a certain extent if men were getting married out of necessity back in the day….does that make it THAT much better? If the only reason I'm marrying you is so I can get approved for a loan or have a better shot of climbing the corporate ladder…as opposed to wanting to marry you solely due to I'm in love with you, how does that play with people?
Is it the old, "Marry now for external benefits and learn to love her later/down the line" ?
Seeing a NEED for something (meaningful, life-long companionship and family/legacy) and SETTLING to reap the benefits of something (financial benefits) are two very different things.
You can view marriage as a necessity and still patiently date till you find a suitable match. Shoot, that's what I'm doing! LOL!
like i said before, its a nice feather in you cap if you can afford it. life-long companionship and family/legacy are nice ideals, but you dont marry ideals and social norms, you marry an actual person, with real consequences if you choose the wrong one.
I believe that marriage is a more ideal situation when you are raising children. They need and want to see that stability. Being that many Blacks grew up in single parent households, it is no wonder why we still have many of our Black men going to jail, massively reproducing irresponsibly.
Kids want to see their parents TOGETHER. Sharing custody and going one place one week and another another week is not stable, and although some people think it works out well, I don't think it does. It does a disservice to your children.
So, if you are going to live with your S/O or shack up, it is simply more financially beneficial to marry. This is why marriage is ideal. If you don't want kids though, marriage isn't all that necessary IMO.
My recent post Shame
It takes two to reproduce also. Black women should do a better job of selecting men they are going to have unprotected sex with also. Shows alot about your character.
Funny how you immediately started the blame game. I'm not saying either is less or more responsible. It is simply a fact that Black ppl as a whole have an ass backward view of marriage and the family unit and how it works best.
@Adonis actually made a very insightful comment below about how Blk ppl don't understand the concept of building a legacy and passing on their wealth.
I don't have any kids, and would prefer to have kids within the confines of marriage because I believe it is more advantageous for my children. All of my black female friends either waited til marriage to have kids or they are single with no children, so your last comment certainly doesn't apply to me or my circle of friends. I have constantly been propositioned by Blk men, however, to have a child with them, but most would rather forego marriage.
My recent post Shame
No blame game and I should have said "some black women" because I know there are plenty who would not even think about letting JunBug smash and get them pregnant. I just hate how things are always pointed so negatively to us when it is a two way street when it comes to having kids.
Thats exactly how many black women feel also.Always blamed for laying with a loser when they are left to pick up pieces after the fact with little to no support.
this makes the situation even worse. If a man is already concerned about the financial responsibilities/ consequences of marriage, adding in a kid is just another financial obligation. this is exactly why guys are waiting until they feel financially comfortable before taking on marriage.
Notice I said if you wants kids. Just because you're married, doesn't mean you have to have kids right away, so being financial stable, even if you do eventually want children, shouldn't be a prerequisite to marriage.
My recent post Shame
this. i think a lot of people dont realize that even in the "good old days", marriage was first and foremost an economic contract.
Yes it was…Just recently found out my grandfather didn't work and did what he had to do to make money…Had kids with other women while married to my grandmother..The point isyou do marry a person first and I am sorry I have worked hard to lose what I have earned dealing with someone not on my same level.
I don’t mind having children OOW. However 2 conditions have to be met
1. My finances have to be in order. Self-explanatory
2. And I need full custody. As great as some of my choices in women will be in the future, but I need care, custody & control of how’re child is raised & nurtured..
Black men need to get off that knocking women up & letting their children destiny up to everyone else.
I actually agree with you 100% on this. As far as pre-nups go, see Michael Strahan. I would love to have a wife type for companionship and to grow old with, but I'll be damned if I lose my entire savings, or house, or pay someone monthly to stay out of my life.
I once asked a divorced man why he married his ex in the first place. He told me that he didn't marry her because she was a b*tch. He married her because she was the greatest thing in the world. He loved her wanted her to have his kids and would do anything for her. He said he couldn't imagine his life without her; it was only later on she became a b*tch and that's why he divorced her.
Moral of the story: People change.
That's what myself and many other men fear. We'll marry one person to make our lives that much better, and then a completely different person will divorce you and absolutely ruin you entire adult life (at least financially).
Seeing this "change" occur with women more and more after they marry nowadays No one wants to lose half of what they've spent their lives building with the okey doke. Tim Duncan gets cheated on by his wife and is about to get taken to the cleaners when SHE is the one in the wrong.
And they wonder why Black men don't want to marry???
That is selfish of you to have children out of wedlock without considering the welfare of the children. Black children don't need part-time non committed parents. They need parents who are committed to raising them in loving homes.Not a custodial experiment. Why you think this is ok or even is reasonable is beyond me.Yet your comment keep pointing women, the mentality is both at the hands of black women and black men. Lol at OOW children like its ok and normal.
I agree dewfish. That's the main reason — not playing the field and sowing of oats, which does happen — why Black men tend not to marry. There's a sociological aspect with the familial makeup, but there are far too many pitfalls that sting Black men the hardest of anyone else, aside from the one or two positives that come with a marriage that lasts.
Love how to just skimmed over the part of men sowing oats and went right after black men being once again victimized for a behaviour that they unapologetically commit without thinking of the ramifications.Black men have it the hardest because they are selfish and consider first and foremost their own pleasure over the wellbeing of their family. Once you marry someone you merge two families into one you are not a sum of parts. But many posters here speak of marriage as two separate entities and their lies the problem with many black people's view of marriage. We never truly align oursleves.
When we were dating, my husband wanted to wait until after he went to pharmacy school to get married. When I asked him why, his answer boiled down to—->because I want to have something good to offer you and I don't feel like my BS is enough to build a stable family on.
After I got passed the fear that he was just using pharmacy school as an excuse to avoid marriage to me, I began to *listen* to what was really going on in his heart, and I determined that it was fear.
Basically I think he was afraid of marrying me and starting a family without have a plan for financially supporting that family. Despite the fact that I am perfectly capable of taking care of myself (and my family) financially, I think that he believes that the burden of maintaining our family financially, in the end, falls on him. I think he sees it as his job, no matter what.
Even now that we're hitched and he has a great job, he still worries about it a lot – and he's not a worrier. It's just that important to him. So, IMO even guys who have great jobs will avoid marriage simply because they want to avoid the pressure of have to take care of a family.
As a woman, I'm glad my husband feels that pressure. I personally think it's a sign of a good man. Also as a woman I think it's important to *MAKE SURE* I keep my own greed in check. To a single man, a 'high maintenance' woman is scary. To a married man, she's stressful. I can't explain enough how important I think reeling in the "bling culture" is to the future of the African American marriage.
My recent post Why Women Want
"To a single man, a 'high maintenance' woman is scary. To a married man, she's stressful."
Damn Amicus u pulled that statement straight outta the minds of men.
""To a single man, a 'high maintenance' woman is scary. To a married man, she's stressful." and let the church say amen, amen, amen.
Such wisdom here. Wish more thought like you.
I’m going to disagree with the “you can’t put an age on marriage” bc you can. Black women with college degrees have the lowest fertility rates in this country bc we are either A). Not marrying at all or B). Marrying after our child bearing years are behind us. With seventy percent of Black children being born out of wedlock and most of these children being born into poverty, as a people, we are essentially starting over with every generation. Most people die in the income bracket they are born in and with our financially best not reproducing, we are at a disadvantage. People love to say that Black women should “expand” their options but we all know the truth is that we are a trapped minority: overall only Black men date/marry us and Black men are not expressing lots of interest in marriage. I won’t even mention that I recently read that 30% of Black men who married in 2011 married women who were not Black…..
Both my sister are married to white men. And I had several white & Hispanic men interested in me before I got married. So although I don't know any statistics, I personally wouldn't say that only black men date/marry us.
"and with our financially best not reproducing, we are at a disadvantage."
I disagree. The people who do the best financially aren't necessarily the one that should be reproducing the most. In this sentence, you're equating "the best" with "the most money" and I think THAT is one of our communities biggest problems.
My recent post The Split: Surviving The Love Hate Relationship
I kind of have to agree with this. love is wherever you find it. But lets be honest here. Lets not pretend that black women are "discovering" the white / hispanic men exist. In the end, everyone will essentially do whatever it is that they want to do, so I really dont want to turn this into another tired interracial dating discussion. and if white guys were some magical cure all to all of this, there wouldn't be this so called "black woman marriage crisis" to begin with.
It's an issue cause I think most black woman really only want to date and ultimately marry black men. So, whatever reasons there are that prevent or delay this possiblity with black men is a HUGE problem.
honestly, i'm still trying to figure out why this such a huge problem. what if a woman never gets married? its not like in the old days where a woman was branded an "old maid" and forced to live a life caring for 10 cats. I am really trying to get to the root of why marriage is even seen as an important thing anymore rather than the choice that it is.
There are lots of reasons…I can only speak for why I prefer to be married.
1. I am a Christian…and my beliefs influence my desire.
2. I believe the married family unit is the best dynamic to raise children in…both parents on site showing the litlins how adult life works.
3. Two is greater than one. We can accomplish more and go further with a devoted partner.
4. I want to have awesome unprotected relations with one partner! LOL!
fair enough. my whole problem with a lot of these discussions is that it is often framed as "you dont want to get married? what is wrong with you?". Like I said before, its a choice, and a rather expensive one. but to each his own.
It is a choice…and there are men as well as women that simply don't want to be married…and there's nothing inherently wrong with that.
However, I think we need to assess how the break down of the black family is effecting whether or not folks value marriage or not…and we can swap out the word marriage for life-long COMMITMENT if that helps.
actually, we cant swap those two words because they arent the same thing. most marriages end in divorce, so marriage is definitely no guarantee of life long commitment.
as far as the "breakdown of the black family", that has no bearing on a personal decision. people will eventually do whatever it is they want to do. this culture/ social norm argument is not the factor everyone keeps making it out to be. i grew up in a family surrounded by long term marriages, and I still dont see the point in doing it myself.
I know they aren't the same thing…but I'm speaking of the whole "stand at an alter, white dress" part vs. people like Goldie Hawn and Kurt Russell who are devoted to one another without the license and such. They're families still see commitment/devotion.
And I def disagree with your last statement. No, divorce is not a black problem. But, COMMITMENT, devotion, camaraderie, loyalty, community, family and the choices you make/who you prioritize life when you have those values…all areas where blacks struggle. And, regardless of what your household was growing up, you were also influenced by what you saw OUTSIDE of your home. "People don't need to be married to make it." So, yeah…lol.
speak for yourself. COMMITMENT, devotion, camaraderie, loyalty, community, family and the choices you make/who you prioritize life when you have those values are not problems for me. i value those things deeply, I just dont currently feel the need to get married. that is not a statement you blanket an entire race with.
Yeah, uh…there's a lot of generalizing going on up and down this thread…so don't even try to full stop me with that.
You get my point. We can agree to disagree. I do side eye your response though…but I don't know you…so I won't full out debate you on why I still stand by this statement: "And, regardless of what your household was growing up, you were also influenced by what you saw OUTSIDE of your home. "People don't need to be married to make it." So, yeah…lol." You know you better than I do…
But, whatevs…you don't think the shoe fits, chuck it. No need to get defensive. But, the world is bigger than you and your house…I'm sure I don't need to tell you that though. #fin
not defensive, just stating facts. just because I dont feel the need to get married doesnt mean i dot care about the community or black people in general.
You always seem to have insightful posts.
These are my stances. It is why I have not had children out of wedlock (at age 34, as a Black man), I agree with the other three points wholly also.
And it's tough to even find a Christian, much less anything else that people are hung up on nowadays.
I have two sons…but I was married when I had them. God's grace…cause it could have been another way, lol. I'm not gonna act like I've always executed everything perfectly. But, I'm committed to setting that standard for them (babies after marriage)…and being very open about the factors that caused my divorce so that they won't repeat our mistakes.
That's wise. Life happens, but you gain wisdom from experiences, rather than blindly repeating them continuously.
I think all you said in this comment will be cleared up once you meet a girl that turns your head – if you ever do that is. Marriage isn't for everyone, and you may be one of those people who are completely fulfilled being single.
I got married because I fell in love with my husband and I decided I wanted to go through my life with him. Yes we could have gone through life together without marriage, but IMO – the foundation of marriage supports what we feel and how we treat each other.
I guess you can think of the bonds of marriage like a cast. Yes, technically you can just hold your leg really still until the bones grow (back) together. But having those vows out in the open, and the blessing of God, country and family behind, beneath an around you – somehow helps you stick together through life ups&downs
My recent post The Split: Surviving The Love Hate Relationship
I am certain of it.
Why are black men avoiding marriage longer than every other race?
1. I would say because the cards are in their favor. Black women out number black men and like someone said earlier, just because a woman has her ish together doesn't mean a man is going to swoop right down and choose her especially if he outnumbered by the women with their ish together. This isnt to say that hes going to cheat on any of them but it is to say he may not rush into any defined relationship and if one has a problem there is always someone else waiting to replace her. Even if he is unsure about marriage or his finances, black men have time to choose. My dad is single and even at the age of 52, he has a PLETHORA of solid options.
2. Culture. I think culturally, getting married is not stressed. In white america, by the time youre 25 its encouraged to have a degree, a spouse, and be on the rise in your corporate job. I think in black america its more get a degree THEN get a job and create some assets and AFTER you've secured yourself THEN attempt to look for someone. There is no timeline in black america. White america is all three (regardless of the order) by 25.
1. once again, risk vs reward. from a mans point of view, that is another reason to not get married. however, this comes off as a bit of a half truth because it portrays every older man that isnt married as some sort of "player". there are unmarried couples that are every bit as monagamous as married ones, if not more so. having a ring on your finger doesnt automatically make you "more committed".
2. once again, luxury vs. need. in general, there is a lot more wealth among white familes than black families. because they can afford to, it is pretty much an expected thing to do, like buying a house (another thing wealth allows you to do at an earlier age and is also a luxury in and of itself.) the problem with this whole social norm/ culture argument is that "social norms" is not a good enough reason to get married. every person that has grown up in america has been subconsciously taught via movies and television, that at a certain age, you are supposed to settle down, get married, 2.5 kids, white picket fence etc. black people are no exception to this rule. but the reality of marriage is whole lot different from a television/ movie fantasy. at the end of the day, its just you and this person, and "societal norms and expectations" will not be around to help you. if you choose the wrong person, the consequences are steep, and those same "cultural expectations" will be waiting to judge you again when its all over.
"however, this comes off as a bit of a half truth because it portrays every older man that isnt married as some sort of "player"."
I think I was unclear with this one. I dont think older unmarried men are players. I would just say they have A LOT of room to negotiate which means there is no pressure/rush to get married. There are plenty of fish in the sea for black men so when one woman goes her way there will still be viable options.
"social norm/ culture argument is that "social norms" is not a good enough reason to get married. every person that has grown up in america has been subconsciously taught via movies and television, that at a certain age, you are supposed to settle down, get married, 2.5 kids, white picket fence etc. black people are no exception to this rule. but the reality of marriage is whole lot different from a television/ movie fantasy. at the end of the day, its just you and this person, and "societal norms and expectations" will not be around to help you. if you choose the wrong person, the consequences are steep, and those same "cultural expectations" will be waiting to judge you again when its all over."
ALL OF THIS!!! I def agree and I think this "social norm" is the reason for divorce rates. People are just getting married because thats what they're supposed to do and thats what everyone else is doing. There is a big difference between meeting the love of your life at 25 and trying to make someone the love of your life because you're 25.
But how was that wealth built? It was built over generation of preferably closeknit families who pooled their resources and grew t together. If everyone is on the got to be around about mines where does it leave us. Look at teh communities that are prosperous besides whites, what do they have in commmon? Poverty can be eradicated within one generation provided that two people truly come together with the intention of building a family unit in which generational wealth can be built.
actually white wealth in this country was built via government laws and land giveaways that were not available to blacks. even after integration, the deal was that the black businesses would be destroyed, and everyone would "integrate" their money into white owned businesses. wealth was not built through marriage.
"Just because a woman has her ish together doesn't mean a man is going to swoop right down and choose her especially if he outnumbered by the women with their ish together."
Sentences like this kill me. I personally know quite a few black women who think they have everything a man is looking for but IMO – don't. Mostly I think many black women have bad attitudes & strange personality flaws that are particularly offensive to men and detrimental to relationships. The crazy thing is that their so busy moaning about their "small good black man options" that they don't take the time to figure out what they may be doing to contribute to the problem.
IMO, men are only 1/2 the problem we're discussing here and I wish there was more discussion on that.
You are on fire today! Dr J says the same thing, and women will be calling for his head on a pike
"many black women have bad attitudes & strange personality flaws that are particularly offensive to men and detrimental to relationships"
I know I shouldn't be surprised, but it never fails to baffle me whenever I just hear such a generally insulting phrase. Why don't you just keep it all the way real and just say "many of the black women that I encounter?" unless you been around the block and back, in which case, my apologies 🙂
Not to make this a gender wars thing, but it amazes me that if a woman deals with a lot of good-for-nothin' men, its her fault and her stock value drops(see: Single Sam), but yet…..
let me go back to work. it's too early.
HOWEVER. I will agree that being a good package does not mean that it's the right fit for you.
First, I'm a black woman. Not sure if you know that. Also, I wrote a whole blog on Single Sam that I hope you check out. It's on my page and it's called, The Measure of a Woman.
What I said about many Black woman's attitudes & personality flaws was too general (I apologize). However, it didn't come from my thinking that a woman's stock goes down when she's mistreated by a man. I try not to think of women as having stock, period. It's insulting.
Instead, it came from my genuine belief that many of the black women I've encountered do things that push men away. And they don't know their doing it. IMO, it's sad.
My recent post Are You OK With Your BF Frequenting Strip Clubs?
What I will agree with is that if you and your mama are the ONLY people who think you have your ish together….then you're probably wrong. lol.
And I get what you're saying. Some people refuse to take a mirror to themselves. I just took issue with the generalization. Its just a pet peeve/trigger of mine, so I tend to turn up a bit (turn medium?).
Regardless I think a lot of people of both genders focus too much on material achievements that can be adjusted at anytime (salary, apt, etc), as opposed to to character traits.
So true Nyah, why his marriage always on the back burner? I will never understand it. It saddens me to see black males in their 40's who has never been engaged or married.
And to make matters even worse, that black woman who is deserving of marriage and never gets it.
My recent post Orgasms and How You Can Get One
Paint the picture of the black woman who “deserves a ring.”
Because to me, every woman who was 18-25 was in the position where a man wanted to marry her. Now, what they did with the opportunity is what needs to be explored
Nowadays, most of the time (if the man isn't well off, or popular or of some stature), those 18-25 types will Heisman Trophy Stiff-Arm the idea of marriage, even if the man approaching them was on the up and up.
Basically, women blew the opportunity, and regretting it when they ain't getting the same quality attention from the top dudes
I'm an 18-25 woman. Not desiring to get married until after 23 at the minimum. Somebody said earlier that they knew a man who had no problem marrying the woman they later divorced because, at the time, that was the woman they loved. People change. ESPECIALLY between this age range. It's not "blowing the opportunity" 'cause it's not that serious. You have time at this age. I doubt I'll look back at my life and say, "Damn, I should have married that guy I didn't like when I was 20".
Women, please correct me if I'm wrong to save me from making this mistake.
SN: I think divorce rates should have been included in the post. It's all well and good that white people are getting married more. But I'd wager to say their divorce rate is probably significantly higher as well. This ruins the stable family structure that , to me, is the point of marriage these days.
Divorce rate by race as requested:
I am 34, wanted marriage since my early 20s, have YET to meet a woman who is Christian and who I find attractive (not looking for anything close to a supermodel) who wasn't psycho.
I am about as even keeled as a person can be, and a healthy sense of emotional intelligence and self-actualized, so it ain't me. It says more about the mentality of women in general — not all — about how what they claim they want rarely lines up with their actions.
true about #2. My mom's former boss (white) of 30+ years asks her all the time if i have a bf and when i'm getting married. We're like family so I j/k told them maybe they need to hook me up with a white guy b/c it does't look like many blk men want to get married! lol. If a female in their family doesn't at least have any prospects by 25 they start thinking something is wrong with her! 25? No mam. Matter of a fact they just had a wedding in the family a couple weeks ago…she graduated college and the next week was her wedding. No mam that's a bit to quick…granted they dated a couple years but still. They are encouraged to find their potential "husdand" while in college or at the least develop lots of friendships that could result in a husband down the line. I wish i was a little more pro active b/c college is the prime place to meet someone on the same level…having similar thought process. It's plenty of guys right at your disposal maybe a little less partying may have delivered Mr. Right! lol. I'm not trying to say we need to be like white america but there is a difference of how they generally view marriage versus us.
I think we get caught up in the right way to be married. Of course I want to be established financially first but i’d like to think that in the next 5 years even if I’m not rich a f ck at the very least i found someone i can say I’m ready to spend the rest of my life with. Black men especially, prioritize accumulation of wealth and status first and assume that the wife is the easy part. Perhaps its because of the plethora of eligible bachelorettes others alluded to, perhaps its the assumption, they simply dont have to be married, she’ll live as a wife and bear his heirs anyway.
no one is assuming finding a wife is the easy part. quantity doesnt equal quality. the accumulation of wealth in a lot of cases is merely seen as the cost of entry.
"no one is assuming finding a wife is the easy part"
Have you followed this blog long??? LOL! That's NOT what the fella's here say…
"The right woman at the wrong time is the wrong woman." If y'all meet a winner at the right time, she gets the ring. You're willing to pass up the right woman at the wrong time cause y'all think they'll be other good options down the road! If not, you'd lock that right woman down regardless of whatever's happening that makes you think its the wrong time.
"The right woman at the wrong time is the wrong woman."
I've used this quote before, so I'll bite. I actually think this is more symptomatic of a comment you (or someone else) made up thread regarding men and women's view on relationship, in general. Most men I know don't believe in the one. That's largely a symptom of Disney movies and princess-like-syndrome that any number of women, from my observations, buy into far more than men.
I agree that black men do prioritize other goals over marriage, as far as the timeline of life goes. Most men, black or other, I know believe there are any number of "good women" they could make their wife. Actually, in talking to most men, they have a rough list of 2 – 3 women they could have married but for whatever reason, they did not. This isn't to say they're unhappy. It's simply to say they recognize they've met more than one "good" woman in their lifetime.
For men, it's not about never finding another good woman, it's about choosing one good woman to be with (whenever he's ready). Black men just seem to "get ready" much later in life.
In fact, just to prove my point, almost every woman on this very site thinks she's good enough to be married. Honestly, women can't have it both ways. You can't say "I'm good enough to marry and so are most of my friends" then say "but men should only see one woman as good enough to marry."
In general, it's strange that women can recognize that not every man is husband material yet find it to be an impossibility that every man might not see every woman as wife material.
this. is the truth.
"In fact, just to prove my point, almost every woman on this very site thinks she's good enough to be married. Honestly, women can't have it both ways. You can't say "I'm good enough to marry and so are most of my friends" then say "but men should only see one woman as good enough to marry."
In general, it's strange that women can recognize that not every man is husband material yet find it to be an impossibility that every man might not see every woman as wife material. "
You just broke down ego trippin', right there. There's a lot of people who are great in their own mind, and because of such, never consider that there is somebody that can't possibly see them equally as great. If a man doesn't think she's worth his marrying, he's not going to marry her regardless to how great and marriageable she and her friends think she is. A man marries off of his perception and outlook, not anybody else's. His ring, his choice, bottom line.
I'm mad I was at lunch when I got this so it seems like I didn't have a good come back, LOL!
"For men, it's not about never finding another good woman, it's about choosing one good woman to be with (whenever he's ready). Black men just seem to "get ready" much later in life."
Yeah, I'm not disputing anything you said. In fact, I was merely exposing the holes in dewfish's quoted line. In fact, if truth be told, I would have BEEN remarried if I didn't know that good doesn't always equate good for me…so I appreciate readiness and options to a point, trust me. HOWEVER, I'm not talking about women saying they are good women. I'm talking about the men who admittedly pass on marrying the good 2-3 woman THEY SAY they could have happily married…y'all called them good women. Whether you believe in the one or not, if men didn't think finding another good woman was fairly easy, this would not be happening. They'd appreciate and value the good one that they have and want to keep her.
"Whether you believe in the one or not, if men didn't think finding another good woman was fairly easy, this would not be happening. They'd appreciate and value the good one that they have and want to keep her."
Don't be fooled by what men say. You have to watch what they do. When a good man finds and *falls in love* with a woman he feels is a good woman…he's going to jump on it, period. My husband was not looking for a wife when he met me. Instead, meeting me made him start thinking about marriage.
IMO, men will talk all day long about how many choices they have when in reality, they haven't met a single person they wanted to settle down with. It's not just about her have certain qualities….it's also about her having that special quality that makes him want to get up off his single butt and make it happen.
My recent post The Split: Surviving The Love Hate Relationship
DEAR GOD YOU ARE WISE.
Whether you believe in the one or not, if men didn't think finding another good woman was fairly easy, this would not be happening.
I feel ya.
Honestly, we could go round and round about this all day – and I have, with any number of women in real and e-life. LOL At the end of the day, I think women feel some type of way about the idea that men might know/think/believe/dream or whatever that there is more than one good woman he will/could run into in his lifetime, and thus more than one good woman he will/could marry.
Now, where I disagree, is I wouldn't describe it as "easy." Finding a good woman is not easy; neither is it finite. I guess I've never said to myself, "I found one good woman, so this clearly means if I don't 'appreciate and value the good one that they have and want to keep her,'" I'll never find another one. I, and most men I know, simply don't see life that way.
Just because something is difficult to find – in this instance, a good woman – doesn't mean it is impossible to find or for that matter, relocate. If anything, the fact that I found one before has often inspired me not to settle until I find one again. I think women want men to believe it is impossible for them to find more than one good woman, because quite frankly, this would placate both their ego and the perpetuated idea – myth or reality – that there is only one woman for a man that can meet and satisfy his needs; with her preferably being that one woman for him above all others.
I personally disagree with this belief, but I respect those who believe otherwise. Actually, I wish I believed otherwise myself, as it sounds very romantic and inspirational, like a romantic comedy writer's dream.
I actually think its a bit arrogant to think that you'll just be able to find someone and lock one down whenever! So, I guess everyone is ego tripping round here! LOL!
Seriously, though, I'm not the woman that's never been chosen. I've been with 3 men that wanted to marry me, one before I married (looked to the future), one I married, and one post-divorce. I'm not married cause I didn't want to marry/stay married to them/him (they thought I was a good match for them but I didn't agree). Do I believe there's only one man for me? Eh…not necessarily. But, I don't think I can lock it down with anyone either. And, because I've been in a relationship dynamic that doesn't work (at least not for me), I highly value my interactions with men where our personalities, values, goals and such do sync up. I think several times over before I chuck deuces to those situations. I don't take it for granted that I'll be good with every good guy I meet.
True. I'm willing to admit that as a man my own biased/ego is blinding me to the realities. But, speaking for what I've seen and myself, men have the benefit (even tho I believe women can do the same, the majority just choose not to) of knowing what they want, then searching – to varying degrees of dedication – until they find it. So, if I want a "good" woman, I just put all my energy into finding a good woman until I find (found) her.
I used a similar analogy before. It's like if I want a steak. Fish might be delicious. Chicken might be delicious. And that's all fine and dandy. Both might even fill me up and temporarily satisfy my hunger. But best believe, I'm not going to be satisfied and I'm not stopping until I find a steak – because that's what I really want.
Flipping the script again, if I want a good woman (or preferably great), I just dedicate all my energy into finding that. I might stop along the way for an average woman. I might get derailed by an OK woman. But I'm going to search every nook, cranny, crevice, and ends of the Earth until I find another good woman, because that is the only type of woman that will truly satisfy me.
You know, Darius told y'all you'd only get 2…maybe 3 good loves in life. So, if you're looking for love #4, that search you speak of may take you to age 65 to find it, lol. Kinda j/k, lol…
I just think that karma has it set up so that the more good opportunities you pass up, the harder they are to come by…relationships or otherwise. So, you have to be careful. Hard does not mean impossible though…I'll cop to that.
True that WIM
"Actually, in talking to most men, they have a rough list of 2 – 3 women they could have married but for whatever reason, they did not."
I've had a guy tell me the same thing. We only dated briefly so i didn't get into the why questions but i would've certainly followed up on why…just out of curiousity as a woman. lol. Heck i'm just trying to meet 1 Man that's marriage material and he has passed on 2 or 3 women who are wifey material and he has a strong desire to get married and have kids? *shrugs* Guess he was looking for more. Guys certainly have the advantage.
Like lang said on one of my post, what happened to building together. Every race I see out here does not have that mind frame. Being financially well does not guarantee much.
I agree, money can be here today and gone tomorrow. It is nice to have, but it shouldn't be what prevents you from wanting to settle down. IMHO, building together creates a stronger bond, because of all the work you have to go through, versus everyone having it all and then combining their finances.
My recent post Yeah I’m single…….
once again, depends on the people involved. you cant just "build" with anybody. some people dont even want to see you coming unless you are the finished product.
If he has bad credit i certainly don't want to see him coming…not down the aisle that's for sure. We get that cleared up 1st! 🙂
exactly my point.
Are people still hung up on credit? When numerous people lost 750, 800 credit scores in the past 5 years? That kind of thinking as about as bad as it is for employers to be tying credit score to employability and job acumen.
Credit scores can be restored in less than a year. The fact that people still one-off someone based upon such superficial bullshit is telling.
Ok, so the people who should come together the most because of various factors come together the least? This makes me sad.
if more people actually had that "come together" mentality during the dating and just basic interaction stages, none of this would be an issue. like I said before, money has been put before everything. the guys are simply getting their money up so that they can come to the table without being written off.
Why are black men avoiding marriage longer than every other race?
1. Less emphasis/less common: Considering the 70% illegitimacy rate, it's just not what many of us see growing up.
2. Ideal of perfection: It's common to say black men are waiting because they have options, want to lay and play, etc. While that is true in many cases, many black women also require black men to have achieved a certain status before they'll consider them marriageable. When the struggling black man wants to get married and many black women pass on him because he's not "there" yet, that delays marriage. Given that black women are achieving more educationally and career wise, and are less likely to "marry down," that further reduces the pool of eligible marriage partners.
3. Whites get married earlier, but also appear to place less stigma on getting divorced and remarried. This is intuition, so any statistics to the contrary are welcome. If black men are being cautious and marrying later in life because they want their first marriage to be their only one, is that somehow "worse" than getting married early just to say you're married, when it doesn't last?
Agree with all of this comment.
1)If you’ve never seen a healthy marriage, you most likely won’t desire one or even if you do, you’ll have a hard time figuring out how to get there.
2)There are two sides to this coin. While a lot of women don’t won’t to marry down career wise (even though money wise the blue collar dude could be making just as much or close to what she’s making) there are women who don’t mind building with a guy who’s just starting off. A lot of those guys feel they don’t have the time to build with that woman. They want to solely focus on their career and don’t see having a wife or potential wife during that time as an asset and support system, but as more of a liabilty or issue maybe even a headache.
3)I agree. A lot of my black male friends (when they do talk about marriage) talk about only doing it once and making it work.
Great comments, Hugh but unfortunately, even when black men (and women) delay marriages, our divorce rates don't mirror more successful marriages. As far as divorce rates, one recent study found we have the second hightest (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/12/divorce-rate-by-race-and-_n_805580.html#s220303&title=Black_or_African) followed by whites at #3 and Hispanics at #5.
However, I'd add two additional qualifiers to these types of stats:
1) "Hispanics" is itself a broad, often meaningless term, since it includes so many varying ethnicities of Latino and Spanish decent. (This is the rough equivalent of referring to Africa as a homogeneous continent rather than the mix of wide-ranging countries that it actually is.) It's often more telling to determine which TYPES of Hispanics you're discussing – Mexican, Latin American, Spanish (from Spain), etc. Unfortunately, most studies don't do this type of stratified analysis.
2) In America, given that Caucasians (72%) are 4.5 times larger than the next demographic group (Hispanics @ 16%), it's not really a fair comparison to simply compare rates of divorce without accounting for other qualifiers, such as education, income, wealth, etc – which, again, most studies don't bother stratifying. For example, a 10% divorce rate of Caucasians equates to 22 million people, while a 10% divorce rate of Blacks equates to 4 million people. Depending on your view point, you could argue less people are affected by the black divorce rate, but you could also argue that the (smaller) black community is more impacted by divorce.
Apologies for going Nerd 2.0 on yall, but I think context is important in a lot of these discussions.
Thanks for going Nerd 2.0 context is INCREDIBLY important and a lot of people don't understand that. Also, your presentation of this topic provoked a great discussion. Its nice to have this convo w/o women constantly saying "men aint s#!t" and men constantly saying "women aint s#!t". Its produced great dialogue and insight so kudos to you.
Thanks for the numbers. That's why I put the intuition qualifier on my comment, because I wasn't sure. It just appears anecdotally that white men I know are far more likely to get married at 25, I'm also hearing about a messy divorce at 32. I was very briefly looking for numbers on having second and third marriages, which was the point I was attempting to get at.
Swing and a miss.
"While that is true in many cases, many black women also require black men to have achieved a certain status before they'll consider them marriageable. "
I know people may attack me for this but Not ALL black women are like this and Im tired of this assumption! Dont assume all black women are like this just how you cant assume just because a man makes a certain amount of money or has a degree that automatically makes him a "good man" or marriage material.
Its one thing to challenge your partner and encourage them to do better and excel. Its a different thing to give them excuses as to why you won't date them.
I agree with you.
Black women IMO are the worst gold-diggers. Their issue is more about getting the really sexy & attractive dude (who is broke & irresponsible) to commit. But he is talking about the alpha that goes on in college/professional circles.
Nyah: "I know people may attack me for this but Not ALL black women are like this and Im tired of this assumption!"
True. That's why I didn't say all. Just like all black men aren't " waiting because they have options, want to lay and play, etc." and not all whites "appear to place less stigma on getting divorced and remarried."
You definitely didnt say all my fault Unc! 🙂
I'm very interested in this topic and I will use myself as a "example":
I proposed and was "engaged" at 19- that was about 6-7 years ago (I'll be 26 in December) but because of "societal norms" about people no longer getting married Young, my on-off again S/O felt (by her friends) that She and I weren't Ready. Arguments erupted, I cheated and became a Father out of it. To this day I Still believe I want to be Married, but while I was at 90% sure and ready at 19, I'm only 20% now, being a College Graduate, a Father to a 5 year old and Student Loans to pay.
Black Men WANT to be Married, but the whole "follow Society" vs "Define Your Own Destiny" is a real conflict; it was for Me. I was/am in a relationship for almost 7 years, dated a few while I wasn't with my ex-fiancée and for me, anything Less than Two Years will NOT get my Full Attention or Time. And I don't have a long list or extreme expectations, just Loyalty, Show/Act like you Care, Don't Lie (unless you Have to) and Communication, though I learned all this being w/ my ex-fiancée- On/Off GF
The post is a real refresher and one of the few I enjoy reading and talking about. Thanks. I'm also learning a lot from all of you who are "older" and already married
Lets just keep it real..being a single blk man post 30 is awesome! You can date different women of different nationalities of all various ages..Its one big free-for-all! So screw all the statistics and black mans burden crap…we get married when we're ready, and that's that!
Here is the post that backs up your assertions.
Tell us how you really feel, LOL! No sugar, no fluff…
Well alright! LOL!
I'm just saying..its a good life..lol
And the downward thumbs have started, LOL!
The scientific answers were easier to digest, I guess, LOL!
I wonder how many -thumbs you'll have by the end of the day…too funny!!!!!
folks hate the truth but that's life..When the time is right you end up marrying the person you're meant to be with. Women need to enjoy their lives and stop worrying about why a blk man wont marry them..screw him! go live and enjoy life! God's always on time..put it in his hands and keep it moving is what i say..
This is very easy for you to say, lol.
But, post 30, most women feel a longing to have her personal King and this hampers her ability to just live and enjoy life. Not saying she shouldn't try…but its not as easy as you make it sound. And, knowing that (some) eligible black men could give a flying fart about the plight of their women is kind of disheartening.
…just get over it and wait till we're ready. Ummm…sure, and thanks, LOL. Smh…
I think the selfishness and lack of community/family amongst black americans is soo destructive and sad.
Keeping it real part 2. Fact – most of the "good guys" that are holding out on marriage, peaked late. I can openly admit I spent most of my early -mid 20's getting my sh!t together so that when i hit that post 30 age Id had a ton of options….and you know what?! it worked out. PLUS the blk females I knew at 23-24 were still chasing Tyrone in and out the bing….so it worked out perfectly..lol
"post 30 age Id had a ton of options….and you know what?! it worked out."
It worked out, huh? LOL! Smh…
Again…I think the selfishness and lack of community/family amongst black americans is soo destructive and sad. It's not just black men's fault either…women play a roll too.
If you wanna be happy in life sometimes you have to be selfish..
Balance is key…and you see that the balance is OFF when you see black culture as a whole struggling as it is.
We been strgglin since slavery…the struggle aint going no where..you gotta make due with the situation you've been handed..
With that defeatest attitude, I guess you're right, smh…that's probably all we can do.
Again…more reasons to weep for the future. Lol…smh…
It's not necessarily being selfish, but looking out for self. Those two are different. Being selfish is looking out only for self while doing so at somebody's expense aka lying, mistreating, or misusing them.
I stand by my statements and point to Adonis post below for my explanation of why I feel this way. 🙂
Pretty much bro. No one in college was hollering at the biochemistry major who was about their grind..If you didn't play sports, acting hood rich, or had the flyest gear on, then you were a lame….
ABSOLUTELY. Women seem to chase the "Bad Boys" when they're younger throwing the Good Men" under the bus with labels such as Nerd, Thirsty, Lame, etc.
Those Biochem majors also were'nt checking for those Bio Chem girls either. They want the Cheerleader, The girl that every other guy wants, the chick on the dance team, etc… Sometimes I think men who did'nt get to run wild during their college years , graduate get some status and go crazy once their 30 with some decent options on their plate.
Oh I definitely was, but I was in a relationship while in college..This is just an observation I made..It's funny because I see a lot of chicks who wanted the athletes or hood stars now can't stand them…That biochem major is starting to look pretty good…lol
Amen to this bro! Put it in the hands of the man up above!
"being a single blk man post 30 is awesome! "
….until you're that 40 + guy still in the club/lounge til the let out and a lot of your friends cant roll with you because they're busy playing house. We ALL know that guy.
Not saying, that's you btw 🙂
Thanks! There is nothing cute about being on the receiving end of their advances either.
"until you're that 40 +" – Right and then we settle down, find a hot lil wifee and be good!
Ain't no HOT young woman gonna want your old…self, LMBO!
Half of y'all are playing yourselves. Only the super fine and super rich ones can get away with that mess…
hahaaaaaaaaa my ol wrinkled A$$..lol
Right? What kinda life are you living that you have gorgeous marriage quality chicks on the back-burner for when you turn 40 and wanna check out of the game? You better patent that methodology and sell a book lmbo
Lets just say i never burn bridges! Plus im a Leo, that helps too..lol
Jay-Z was 40 when he married Beyonce!
But she's like 10 years younger than him lol and he was keeping an eye out for here since she was like 20 lol p.s. and just like yall tell us "We aint Beyonce…. You aint Jayz"
Jay-Z is also worth $500 million. Ain’t nunya Jay-Z. Lol
If only I could post a picture to describe the look on my face.
But to each its on.
My recent post How Black Girls Rock
This is so true. Men and woman start off differently earlier in the world of relationships. The young, beautiful woman has more options to choose in her companionship. Young men don't. As we get older, this dynamic switches up and just as women enjoyed the attention, desirability and options they once had, now it's the "good guys" turn to enjoy his.
"Today I have one simple question: Why are black men avoiding marriage longer than every other race? "
I often wonder is it the fact that one race is avoiding marriage longer….or are other races have more pressure within their culture to obtain marriage by a certain age (whether they're truly happy at the time or not) or risk being ostracized or what not.
As WIM alluded to in the thread he highlighted in the beginning in generations past in order to reach "successful status" one needed a wife/family…not wait to get successful and THEN get a wife/family. Some banks wouldn't give a man a loan if he was single so there was def more incentive to be married as it benefited one in more ways than just "love and happiness".
Clearly there is no one absolute answer…it's a multitude of reasons I'm sure, but stll very interesting to observe.
First off, let me say that I am glad that I haven't seen too many "because n***** aint sh*t" responses lol….. 2nd, I don't see anything wrong with a man waiting until he is established and has everything in order before being married. Saw this in the comments to this article and in the post, that a lot of people believe that one wrong move could bring the whole marriage down. In a society where marriage is looked at as a negative thing, and a society where a growing number of blacks our age aren't coming up in two parent households, its easy to see this. I hear a lot of people say they don't want to deal with the headache, that marriage is pointless, it's just a title (and this is coming from women as well). This contributes to it. My parents are married and have been for going on 27 years, but I could see how one could have this sentiment if they grew up in a home where the parents weren't together and were always at odds. There are a lot of societal issues as to why black men aren't getting married at the rate they used to, but this points to a bigger issue and would take me too long to type all of it out lol
You may not see it spelled out that way, but the sentiment is there with some.
Black men are waiting so long to marry us because to many black women have accepted/settled for the married life without establishing you require to be married. Time and time again black women are putting in there best work and best years hoping he’ll marry you yet instead he gets comfortable and your a girlfriend for 5 plus years.
I wish i could give this multiple thumbs up — but since i can't…you get a CO-SIGN ma'am!
We avoid marriage because, that single black male with no kids a white collar job, and all his teeth is a fucking JUGGERNAUT or booty. I mean lets be real… its a sellers market out there and we have the rarest goods.
Take me for example, I chronologue my dating experience well on this blog . did I just quit and settle for the first business class white woman I went out on a date with?
right now Im unemployed, yes yes, poor me the storage engineer who is not working right? I have gotten about 40 job offers in 2 months of being unemployed.. FORTY!! have i picked one yet? nope
when I didnt have a job 6 years ago and was just a scrub wit no real computer skills, I took the first job that was offered to me after my layoff… and it was a job on the loading docks not even a job you should take as an educated man. I took the job on the loading docks because it was the first job that was offered to me in 15 months of being unemployed. see the difference?
dating for me was similar. I could have wifed up any of the women I dated. this is not a movie or sitcom, there is no "one" person you are destined to be with. of the final 4 women I was dating , any of them could have been a wife or lived with me. why would I be hasty and pick one?
this is a good sign not a bad sign… because heres the other number your missing. black men have the the 2nd highest interacial marriage rate. 2nd to asian women but lets be honest… those are all mail order brides. so black men are the most OPEN for marriage in this country. so we are getting married and we are "shacking up" to play house….. but the good black men know their VALUE and are making better judgement and taking their time.
this is a good sign not a bad sign… because heres the other number your missing. black men have the the 2nd highest interacial marriage rate.
I'm only putting this here because this is such a popular, yet incorrect, assumption. According to Pew, "About 15% of all new marriages in the United States in 2010 were between spouses of a different race or ethnicity from one another, more than double the share in 1980 (6.7%). Among all newlyweds in 2010, 9% of whites, 17% of blacks, 26% of Hispanics and 28% of Asians married out." Specifically, "About 24% of all black male newlyweds in 2010 married outside their race, compared with just 9% of black female newlyweds. Among Asians, the gender pattern runs the other way. About 36% of Asian female newlyweds married outside their race in 2010, compared with just 17% of Asian male newlyweds." There is no notable difference for Hispanics among gender, meaning they still exceed even black males by a negligible percentage point of 2%.
More info @ Pew: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/02/16/the-ris…
You're out here turning down 40 job offers? Shiiieeeetttt gimme your problems lol
yeah but those job "offers" include…. hey negro… pick up all yo stuff, move to NORTH DAKOTA, work really hard for 6 months, and then be out of a job again" yeah… my wife is french. I cant trust her in the house for 6 months without me, it aint goin down like that!!!!
so to not sound like an uppity nigga, I would say only 3 of the offers were something that was reasonable, but im still waitin on the offer that makes me say YES!!!
Oh I feel ya. Recruiters stay trying to get me to move to Sioux Falls and telling me about the salary bump I would get there, as if I wouldn't spend all of that money getting out of North Dakota every weekend lol
LOL your wife is French and you can't trust her. Then, why did you marry her? smh
For some reason the term avoiding is bothering me. It makes it seem like men are actively putting off marriage when that may not be the case when just looking at the statistical age of those getting married.
From my circle I know guys that want to be married but for whatever reason they aren't. Not avoiding it just aren't there. Men have their own personal litmus test on getting married if he isn't where he personally thinks he should be it ain't happening unless a woman proposes to him and we all know the chances of that happening are close to the negatives.
My recent post The most powerful scene I've ever seen in a video game
Thanks for the comment. To clarify, I chose the term "avoid" because it is a conscious decision that black men are making not to marry at a younger age – whatever the root cause. In other words, black males could CHOOSE to marry younger, but as a whole, they do not. In this instance, a synonymous term would be "postponing," which I could have used if I was looking to be more politically correct.
Hi WIM, my comments keep going to moderation instead of posing immediately. Am I doing something wrong? I can reply to comments but I can't post original comments. There wasn't any offensive language in any of my posts.
My recent post The Split: Surviving The Love Hate Relationship
I'll log into IntenseDebate. It's probably simply overloaded (usually happens when we get into the 100+ comment days – I'm not complaining. Life could be worse.). Thanks!
I agree with Nyah, Uncle Hugh, and some of dewfish's comments.
Sometimes, I wish I wasn't so hell bent on marrying a black man…but I am. Sometimes, I wish I didn't even care about being married…but I do.
It's really sad that black men and black women seem to be on completely different relationship pages as opposed to other cultures. Where do we even begin to fix this????
Again…I weep for single black women…and the future.
It's an eye-opener based off what you just said
why exactly do you want to get married so badly?
I answered you above. 🙂
Don't weep for single black women and the future…Why does everyone have this negative view about black men and marriage. I mean I have pleny of firends who married before the age of 30 and they all happy…Cause believe you me, I know plenty of women who were not thinking about getting married in their early to mid 20's also…
Because I'm not sure that black folks (men or women) are willing to admit or do anything about our deeper problems…
…see Adonis post for an explanation of what I'm referring to. Its long…but full of points.
Ok so what do you suggest then that we do to address our deeper problems??
I answered that already…I don't know what to do, LOL!
I have no answer. As you know better, do better, and maybe it'll catch on, I guess. *shrugs*
Really, I don't know. We just need to care more overall about each other and what's happening to our families…care more about each others struggles…less about me and mine and more about us…the greater good.
its unfixable for our generation.
im not saying this out of hysteria, im saying this as a man who did this black dating thing as a SCIENTIST and a journalist for 2 years.
I came to this blog 6 years ago thinking I would get an idea of what I should be doing as a single black 30 something male, and forcing myself to date ONLY black women and reading what sistas had to say over the internet made me realize what we want at our core as middle class black men and what middle class black women want… are not the same.
our mothers raised the sistas to not depend on a man, to not be overly compassionate, and to be competitive. But they raised black men to be the opposite. we arent very aggressive… most brothas I know have one dream and thats to have "FUN" and NOT GET YELLED AT.
when those are your goals as a middle class white collar black male, then your goals and morals match up better with blue collar white females… because white men in general (upper lower or middle class) are just plain MEAN and aggressive! blue collar white females are just looking to work a little but not dominate, have a baby , live in a normal apartment and have a REALLY cute guy on her arm, AND NOT GET YELLED AT. see how we line up so well?
I dont see why its such an issue that we didnt work out this generation?? we worked out well for the 5 generations BEFORE, this ONE isnt working, so lets all go and marry into other cultures, make BLACK babies, and then they can perhaps get together for our NEXT generation… divide and conquer yall. Ill see you ladies in 30 years at the wedding aight?
Gold digging women, women who act as if they don't need men, women who grant free chex and children (men put forth little to no effort to earn), etc…all ways in which women contribute to the problem, yes.
I don't know that I agree with your conclusion or solution…but I won't gloss over some of the good points you made.
Just wow. So many generalizations, so little time.
Unfortunately our generation will not see a change but we must be the ones to put a stop to the entire cycle for the next generation. We need to stress to them the importance of marriage before children, and put in place tools and strategies! I'm working hard so that my son and future sons wont feel the burden of waiting to marry because of financial stress they will have savings and a college fund of their own. I was a divorced single mother for sometime but there is still no excuse for him or any of my children to not see marriage as an important goal.
1) I agree with most women who believe that black men have a list with marriage at the very end. I also believe the "last good black man on earth syndrome" contributes to it as well. This allows a lot of men to believe that they can wait and wait, and still some great woman will be waiting in the wings once they finally decide to settle down. (hint: not always the case) This also contributes to another problem, which is 40ish year old single and never married black men who approach me in various places. You wait that long, but want a much younger chick in the process? GTFOH
2) I agree that it is cultural.
3) Women are a part of the problem too. Wifey means absolutely SH##.
4) Men have different perceptions regarding age. When I think of a young married couple, I think 25 and under. Men think 27-29 is still "young".
5) Commitment issues
6) Think of marriage in terms of sacrifice and what they are giving up rather than what they are gaining and the goals that can be achieved.
This is just a few I could think of.
+1 to all of this. 2 points that stick out to me
1)Cultural. I don’t think we really raise our boys to see marriage and commitment as a necessity. (Not all of us). It’s like that article the mother from “Harvard” wrote to young women about finding their husbands in college. I mean how many college age men especially black men do you know are molding themselves/ trying to be husbands in college, vs women molding themselves looking for something serious that will lead to marriage at that age.
6) Thinking of marriage as a sacrifice and not an addition. If they aren’t talking about losing money (divorce) their talking about losing freedom (can’t have the same single fun). Like someone stated up top, there are a lot of blk women who don’t mind working with you to help you progress. I think a lot of men don’t see the benefit in that type of support system and just think about the effort they’ll have to put in to multitask in that type of situation (usually seeing it as a negative).
#1 – Everyone hates that explanation, but definitely culture is part of it. Also, it was mentioned at some point that white people view divorce and remarriage more favorably than black people. The divorce rate is pretty high all around. And even if that were true, they were still having less kids out of wedlock, so…apparently that means that we have less favorable views of divorce and remarriage, but more favorable views of single parenting and out of wedlock births. IJS.
#6 – Notice some of the comments about the financial "downside" to marriage. Telling.
see this is you guys blaming the men.
black WOMEN are whats the current problem with "black love" and marriage.
your first response will be to lash out at me with anger as expected, I have a logical counter to this.
if we as middle class black men, were all AFRAID of commitment, and scared of living happily ever after… why out of the 6 different sub races in this entire united states of america are black men getting married at the HIGHEST rate to others?!!?!?
My dating experiences on this site way back are documented. I was wit a white woman for 10 years and living together for about 6. when i became single I swore it was because of race, and if I found a "sista" everything would be ok.
I can go back and look at post after post in my journal and in this blog of me talking about myself FIGHTING with sistas I was in relationships with… ill tell you this how the hell do you FIGHT with someone you dont even live with? its NOT THAT SERIOUS…. yet. but this seems to be how sistas are raised.
My cousin is exactly like me, 2 different middle class black households, and we are both not married til after 30 but tried HARD to date and find nice women til then.
our sisters are both overly aggressive.
I can admit black men were tbe problem in the the 80's, Ill take full responsibility for those negros. but cant you guys look at YOURSELVES as not being attractive to US and not the other way around?
It’s not blaming, but bothers have some responsibility in this issue. Trust for the last 4-5 years with all of the relationship books, blogs , gurus etc… BLACK women have been blamed for everything in relationships. It’s like every time we put the spot light on the men they turn it right back around. It takes two people to make a relationship work. Even when sista are doing every thing right you still tell us were wrong, so what gives? At some point we have to see how were raising our men, how they view marriage and why they fell this way. Not to say some black women don’t make do certain things that make finding relationship bliss hard. But men need to be checked as well. Some fo you just want women to go with “it’s my way or the highway” or “just wait until I’m ready and consider my time” and wonder why we have the same attitude.
"My dating experiences on this site way back are documented."
Didn't realize you are the original HNIC here. Welcome back!
Let me see if I can pull up some old ish @ HNIC wrote.
This guy was OG troll in the SBM comments, back when SBM was writing regularly.
2009 ish… Iight let me do some research.
Here we go. His name is Hasani. In 2008! OG
Was you commenting back in ’08?
Yes, I was around in 2008 commenting under Hugh Jazz.
I responded above. You have a pretty warped and dysfunctional view of black people, relationships, women and life in general. I think you might need some help.
FYI – Asian women marry out the most of all minorities. Even your data is wrong.
Let’s see if I can make this short.
I don’t get it. Everybody is missing the big elephant in the room. Everybody in the comment section has been hinting at it, but it has not been quite said.
White men. Asian men. Indian men. Mexican men. African men. All participate in a patriarchal system that advocate building a legacy & passes on resource/benefits/privileges to their offspring
Think about this. White men to their detriment, will marry a white wh0re and take care of kids that are not his, all for the sake of maintaining the WHITE SUPREMACIST myth so that his offspring can maintain PRIVILEGE that most races don’t have access to.
There is something to lose if a white woman leaves her community to go marry non-white. Inheritance/networks, etc.
All these men & woman operate within a system that puts their genetic legacy at an advantage.
They work & toil, & commit to a (wo)man, make babies, and whatever RESOURCES they accumulate within their lifetimes, they pass it on to their offspring.
Black American Men & women have at their “culture of legacy building” disrupted to the point where we literally live in an ALTERNATE UNIVERSE, compared to how the rest of the world lives. And that is just the “price of admission” being that we are STOLEN AFRICANS (some of us were already here aka Native Americans) .
Jim Crow, Crack Era, Prison Industrial Complex,
Christianity, which is a religion that was FORCED upon us, we didn’t get to choose. Which gets us focused on BS.
But we are past the point where legacy building, acting as a collective is not perceived as valuable from the cradle to the grave.
So, right now in 2013, because we don’t operate as a collective (which I have briefly highlighted how we are victims in that) and we don’t plan economically/financially for our children.
There is NO PERCEIVED VALUE in a Black Man marrying a Black Woman.
The American Black Woman’s womb has no value outside of pleasure. There is no present culture (patriarchy/legacy building) supporting that.
Whereas there is something to lose when a White man or woman dates/marries Interracially.
There is nothing that I can threaten a BM or BW with to keep them from dating out.
So, in conclusion, black men are reacting very rationally, are sizing up their options, making the most of a raw deal.
And black women are just going to have to make their adjustments and do other things.
If I was a mid-20s, average looking, marriage minded Black Woman, who black men are hesitant to marry, I would go get me a white simp.
Simple as that.
I’ll be poolside.
I hope that helps.
Times like this I can't be sure if you are a professional troll or just deranged. I think it may be a bit of both.
You gotta pull out the nuggets though…don't let the delivery spoil the whole post, lol.
hahaha sooo true!! Eat the meat, spit out the bones!
Exactly. This is what I do when I read peoples' posts in general. There are often merits within the post, and sometimes things that I flat out do not agree with. Take the part that applies to you, or the part that you can put to use, and disregard the rest. Those who respond with some snippy, caustic remark tend to do so because they are guilty of what the OP is speaking of.
“What doesn’t kill you, makes you… STRANG-JER” – The Joker
Adonis, I agree with everything you side above the line!
I just posted this in another thread above: "I think the selfishness and lack of community/family amongst black americans is soo destructive and sad."
The damage is so deep rooted and black folks are too…something…to even see it. They'd rather be "free" and "color blind" and a bunch of other stuff. I'm not against intermingling at all. I just wish we'd see the deeper issue and care about it.
I think overtime nature will correct itself, and we will get back to a more normal way of life.
But for the black women who want marriage now, need to exercise all their options.
You have to date on a global level. Not a local one.
So, right now in 2013, because we don't operate as a collective (which I have briefly highlighted how we are victims in that) and we don't plan economically/financially for our children.
Exactly. We have to start doing this for our children!!!! It will decrease this marriage issue and so many of our societal problems. Duh?!
For Everybody going down the Interracial Marriage is hurting the Black Community, PLEASE READ THIS and THINK before you Pass Go and Collect $200:
Naw, I don't think its interracial marriage…never did…never said that. I think its more of what Adonis details above the line in his main post.
I can't fully agree with what he said, though everything about Black folks post Slavery is accurate to an extent.
Since the Human Race originated From Africa, damn near everything and everyone prior to Jesus were Black- Moses, Joseph, Noah, etc. Heck, Jesus was described as having "wolly locks of hair as an adult", that sounds rather like Dreads or Braids to me, ergo Christianity was "made" From Blacks, though Whitewashing MANY things, especially History is no surprise and revising Religion(s) is no different.
Saying there is no Value to Black Folks or Black Love is also a BS statement and a Cop-Out. If YOU or WE don't value our Own Culture, Nobody Else Will, and at the same time Segregation got people, Specifically Blacks, Nowhere B/C we had no Seat or Stake at the Political or Economic table after Reconstruction
After looking at the black family, this is your true conclusion???
Okay, lol. I lean way more to Adonis' line of thought. We are talking about American blacks…post the Transatlantic Slave Trade. And if you can't see where we are still struggling in our families…after losing our tradition…our heritage…what's OURS and more, I don't know what to say, lol.
We'll just have to agree to disagree.
Black men take longer to get married because it takes us longer too establish ourselves. The truth is No Man, no matter his race, wants to marry before he feels financially secure. The disparity comes from the fact that not only are other races establishing themselves earlier, they have one asset that gives them an advantage; Family.
I have two white friends in their twenties who have recently gotten married. The first was given a house by his parents, and they cover the payments. He and his new wife can now focus on their careers with few expenses other than their tuitions. My second friend has a grandmother who happens to be a shareholder in Apple. Her dream was to see him married while she's still living. He has never been interested in settling down, so his grandmother put a quarter million dollars in a trust and told him he would have access to it when he settled down. He married the first girl he found after that conversation.
There are a few reasons why it takes us longer to jump the broom than other races, but a major variable is the family unit. Many white men have the same view of marriage as any black man, but they have the encouragement and support (or bribery) of their families.
"There are a few reasons why it takes us longer to jump the broom than other races, but a major variable is the family unit. Many white men have the same view of marriage as any black man, but they have the encouragement and support (or bribery) of their families."
I wish folks would take the time to read Adonis' comment (above the line). He really does speak to this issue with the black family.
We make the same POINT, although coming from a different angle.
Those white males have INCENTIVES to want to create & maintain a family.
They also don’t have to overcome the struggles that black men have to go through (fatherlessness (I forgot to mention that), economic discrimination, mortality)
Whereas the Player lifestyle is much more alluring to the black men who DO beat the odds.
There is no system to keep everyone from “misbehaving”.
Yes, we are…but the main points still stand. Can't control how folks, including you, apply those facts but I hope they are swayed closer to my angle than yours, LOL. :-p
In Japan there is a trend for men who are forgoing marriage and embracing a free-roaming bachelor lifestyle: It's called Grass Eating. The women, as they are gaining upward mobility, are complaining that men don't want to be married as they are knocking on 30/40s door. This is happening internationally in many developed countries. Check this article out: http://www.japantoday.com/category/lifestyle/view…
Now let's look at the comments by these Japanese men and then, imagine black men are saying the same thing. It's the same argument that I hear stateside when I talk to other men.
“Just looking at my married friends and how day by day they become more and more emaciated makes me think that I’m lucky to be single.” (25, Creative Arts)
“Rather than having your wallet squeezed of its last dime, spending your earnings as you please has got to be the more appealing option.” (24, Communications)
“From impressions alone, marriage means throwing your hobbies out the window.” (25, Machinery)
“After the stress of work, being able to unwind alone in peace is what it’s all about for me.” (43, Electrical, gas, oil business)
“I can cook better than most housewives and I’m not afraid of housework either. I’m also pretty good at my job. Bringing someone into what is essentially a more or less perfect lifestyle is simply unnecessary.” (56, IT)
So although not in dominant numbers, a larger portion of men (be it black or japanese or whatever) see staying single as a plus based on economic and lifestyle factors. The fears and concerns of those men are the same sentiments I hear among black dudes. What you are witnessing is a silent backlash also to what male/female dynamics have come to in modern times. A lot of guys don't want to be bothered and I don't blame them.
I believe it take black men a while to "hit their stride" also. I know I had difficulty getting stabilized and it effected my dating life. Once I did get that under control, the ball was in my court. Now…well…it still doesn't seem like an attractive option.
In addendum: Comments on my FB feed about the OPs article echo the same sentiments. These are from the mouths of other black men from different parts of the country:
– because some are waiting to get themselves straight before they make such a big decision…
– It costs us more, on average and on value, to get married AND to get a divorce. We simply just opt out of it…
– cons weigh more than the pros these days for men.
– marriage is in favor of the woman more so that the man
Perhaps people should be getting to the root of why men are feeling this way.
I read the article but not the comments so excuse if I'm echoing. There have been many movies that have come out that glorified our brothers as being "playas" who have "smuts" "slimes" "jump-offs" and quite frankly a lot of them embrace it. If you watch movies like "How to be a Player", "Boomerang", " A thin Line between love and hate" then of course why would the average brother want to settle down? How many movies and shows really depict them as successful family men? Not many. Also a lot of brothers have grown up in single family homes where no father was present so again that's the model he has. It's sad but true. Let's not forget the plethora of rap records that have come out over the years that glorify that type of behavior. And again if their favorite rapper or movie star can do it, why not live life through them.
My recent post Lord Of The Rings: Phil Jackson A Legend Or Lucky S.O.B.?
Ok and movies are just that entertainment…And besides, as you named those movies, what about the Cosby show, A different world, heck Fresh Prince of Bel Air..All of these shows depicted black successful family men..While I will say the older/younger men in the community we need to do more, I refuse to put the blame on the entertainment industry…It's more than that….
well, bill cosby admitted to cheating on his wife in '97. So that nullifies him and yes different world was positive but for every positive 'black male show' there's one that's not so negative. Listen that's how society portrays brothers, like it's okay to be promiscuous or non-committed. It is what it is.
My recent post Lord Of The Rings: Phil Jackson A Legend Or Lucky S.O.B.?
For men, 30+ stride is real– I feel like once an unmarried man passes a certain point in his late 20s/early 30s, he realizes that he has another good decade or more to enjoy the pursuit of 'fleshly pleasures.' Only he can do it even better since he's now more in-demand than when he was in his early/mid 20s. Its like when you're running hard and feeling all tired, then you get that 2nd wind. lol
That being said, I feel like black women avoid marriage too, at least between the ages of 18 and 24. Is there anything wrong with younger black women making a conscious decision to try to marry older black men who meet their prerequisites?
I occasionally hear the argument that older black men are chasing the younger women, so wouldn't there be an incentive for black women to marry at a younger age?
I came across this article a while back, written by a mother for an audience of college-educated women: http://dailyprincetonian.com/2013/03/29/32755/
The main point of advice given can be summed up by this quote: "Here’s what nobody is telling you: Find a husband on campus before you graduate." i.e. Get married, even if your career is in its larval stages.
Maybe the question should be "Why are black women avoiding marriage until its convenient for them, and why do black men get called out for doing the exact same thing?"
12 Point Buck: "Why are black women avoiding marriage until its convenient for them, and why do black men get called out for doing the exact same thing?"
Excellent question @12 Point Buck.
Thanks Uncle Hugh for pointing it out!
I got married at 19…so I am completely exempt from answering this question, lol.
Now, I think its wreckless for ANYONE to get married before age 25, personally, lol. Take that time to date and figure yourself out…get school and stuff out the way…get that nice entry level position. Afterwards and at that point, both sides should be on the come-up trail…and can start getting serious so they can come-up together! 🙂
A gal can dream, lol…
I got married at 19
The bigger question is, why is Cyn trying to hog all the husbands for herself? sheesh!
Interesting scenario tho.
LOL! I just picked prematurely the first time…just need ONE now that I know what's good for me and who I'd be good for. 🙂
We were both in college. I had a govn't job and he had a customer service job…but he was also a musician so he had two incomes. Together, we finished college, he transitioned to the govn't, he remained a musician, we bought a townhouse, had a baby, bought a single family, had another baby, divorced, lol…but I get NO alimony and NO child support by choice! We have our kids bi-weekly so there's no need for child support.
If dudes would vet these women they are marrying better…and stopped cheating…maybe they wouldn't lose HALF, LOL! Pick a women with enough integrity about herself that she doesn't want your money from day 1 (unless she was a house wife…then just help her get on her feet). If it doesn't work, you split your marital assets and keep it moving. Ijs…
I still say that people change, and not always for the better. A wife can always change from a housewife to a garden tool.
People don't just do 180s, I'm sorry. Not from my experiences. In most cases, a yellow or red flag was ignored and you proceeded anyway. It's just easier to blame the other person than to admit that you made a bad choice…or failed at changing/taming them in that area.
Everybody has yellow flags. If no one took a chance on them, most people would NEVER get married. And people can get brand new on the come-up or in hard times.
I stand by my statement. We can agree to disagree.
As a divorcee, I can say that my ex-hub did NOT change…I just got a more in depth view of who he already was. And the signs of problems to come were there before "I do"…I just didn't realize that I couldn't deal with them or that the issues were as serious as they were.
Red flags should full stop you. Yellow flags should be dealt with PRIOR to "I do"…make sure you can deal with issues long term. Go thru cycles of life (good times, hard stuff, etc.) with someone before "I do". Again, there are ways to keep down the surprises. No 180s…that's a cop-out. No divorce is ever 1-sided. Accountability should always go both ways.
You best to believe I am looking for a young darkskin (and white) version of cyn81.
Most likely I will have to "create" one which is just as good
Yeah…it really is.
It's called a double standard. And both men and women have it.
The caveat with this "convenience" angle is that women are on borrowed time with their reproductive systems (and up against younger, better looking counterparts), whereas men are not on the same timetable with the ability to reproduce, while younger men are often repugnant to most young women, and older, more stable men tend to be more attractive to them anyway.
This is generally speaking, for those who love to lash out because it hits too close to home.
1)I don’t think its avoiding marriage as much as it’s “the option” is not there in college. You go to a college campus and round up 100 black men and see how many of them are truly looking for a wife on campus. We don’t raise and groom our sons to be husbands in their early years.
2)I know lots of women who thought by 25 they would be married and are not. So focusing on school and career is a must if you want to be a self sufficient grown up in this world until you find a partner.
3)Go to a college campus, round up 100 black women. Ask them how many of the want to be married, and wouldn’t mind getting into a relationship right not in college that would lead to marriage. Then ask them how many guys they’ve meet/dated with the same mind frame.
4) Its not so much that were pushing it off, I think some of us just realize a lot of the guys between 18-24 aren’t ready or willing to jump into a relationship that’s going to lead to marriage. So that either leads us to date those men and keep our fingers crossed, date older or don’t date at all.
To answer #3, ask those same 100 what they did when they DID run across a man who wanted marriage. It's easier to to lump in the 18-22 year old dudes who are trying to earn notches on their belts for the entire time they are there, but you can derive more from the standouts than the overwhelming norm.
When those same 100 women knew of a guy who had his act together, wasn't cheating, wasn't smashing everything in sight, and was even a few years older than the 19, 20 year olds that they were accustomed to dealing with, and still wouldn't give him the time of day, then you have to step back and ask how seriously do they even want to build a relationship with ANY man, regardless of what he's about?
Wanting to br married someday isn’t the same as wanting to be married then or willing to say yes if proposed to at a point in college. Truth is, plenty of black women were about playing the field as well during that phase in life while getting their degrees too. Can we tell the whole truth?
I cant speak for all black women but if I had a dollar for every woman I met who said “yeah I was going to be a (enter profession) but then I got pregnant/my husband wanted to move/my husband was having problems at work so I decided to support my family”, I would have a lot of money and quite frankly, I dont want to be that woman yearning for what I couldve been and it really disturbs my soul when I hear women say this. This is why Im putting off marriage.
I dont think its fair that men get called out for doing the same thing when it is truly a desire to accumulate wealth and be stable prior to marriage. However, I think the frustration arises from specific situations that women may have been in. So they’re dating a man who tells them they want to build their assets so the woman begins to wait when the reality is, they just dont want to marry that woman specifically. This could be because as mentioned earlier, some women think they have it all, when they dont or this could just be a man’s way of being passive aggressive or sowing his oats. Whatever the reason I think the “Im building my assets” has become more of an excuse/lie as oppose to a goal. Goals are fine, but I am not here for lies and excuses.
“Whatever the reason I think the "Im building my assets" has become more of an excuse/lie as oppose to a goal. Goals are fine, but I am not here for lies and excuses.”
I think the "I’m building my assets" id the new “I’m not looking for a relationship” for some people. I will say I know quite a few men who haven’t had all of their assets in order but met a woman who they knew was worth the investment and they worked together to build a future.
I think for the other group of men, they really are focused on building their assets and just don’t feel they can handle focusing on building a foundation for a career and marriage at the same time.
Many other cultures see having a wife who can support the family cause while he puts in work to create wealth as a prerequisite to asset building. 1 mortgage/rent expense…if you are trying to start a business it's a lot easier to do so if you're in a dual income relationship. Basic math, but as noted above, black men aren't groomed to be husbands / family leaders and see the benefits of sacrificing the fast life for a sustainable long future.
The thing about dudes who emote the whole, "I'm building my assets" line is, once they get built (if they ever do), then they often — not always — spend years acting like God's gift to women. Don't think women don't see that, because I'm sure there are a couple of them here who can gleefully point out that they've watched a couple of guys that they've known go from nothing and broke, with no interest from women, to doing pretty well off, and then turn into a wannabe casanova, with not the slightest desire to settle with one woman.
While there may have been a financial component which may have been initially at the base of this, currently I believe that this is largely a byproduct of the perception by many black man that there are an abundance of women available in the marketplace.
It’s supply and demand, And many black men believe that the demand for them is inelastic. This causes many women, not just black woman, to overpay to pay early for their company. Whether the premise is true it doesn’t matter if both the buyer and the seller have the same perception
I know for me while having that queen by your side earlier on in life, the main reason I have delayed marriage is to make sure my house is in order (mentally, physically, spiritually, and financially). I grew up in a two parent home and saw my parents struggle…I never wanted to deal with that so I focused on further educating myself which was a struggle in itself. I know education is not a guarantee to riches, but it does put you on a different level than the average person out here. I know plenty of married dudes and the one thing they tell me is that finances is key in a marriage.
Good for you brotha. Yes ppl do need to make sure they are right, because being with someone who has a lot of debt will hinder the relationship. Its a shame when ppl can't get a house or car because one of them has bad credit and the other resents them for it. Also we as black ppl need to focus on building businesses as well because who knows when/ if they gonna send the job to china or replace us with cheap immigrant labor.
Agreed 100%. And that is what I am doing as well. Good luck.
<quote>I remember a white male friend of mine told me that his 33 year old sister was close to depression because she was not married. Now in our community, that is nothing new to us. I was shocked to hear ole girl was 2 seconds away from popping anxiety medicine but we live in two different worlds when it comes to our expectations on marriage.</quote>
I'ma KILL my brother! I TOLD him to stop spreading my business!!
I think Black Men take longer to Marry because they can. If you get your money together and your 30 years old It's quite logical that a man would spend his next 10 years running through women and then settle down at 40 married to a 30 year old woman. Well That's my goal lmfao
Alternatively…I've seen men much younger in marriage take risks before children because they could live on wife's income for a set period of time while they worked hard. Anyway you cut it, living with 2 incomes is easier than one, especially if you have the entrepreneurial spirit.
That's how wealth is created. And – let's be real, by the time the man is 40 and ready to settle down with the 30 year old, he's 'accidentally' had a baby or two and the 30 year old woman is less pressed to deal with baby mama drama…but the 40 year old woman just might.
"he's 'accidentally' had a baby or two and the 30 year old woman is less pressed to deal with baby mama drama"
Any man OR woman irresponsible enough to have a child "accidentally" probably isn't marriage material at that point anyway.
I really think it all goes back to what @ChrisUnltd said. I don't mean this in the way it’s usually meant, but men (on a basic level) are pretty much the same, race notwithstanding. I was raised by my mother and my grandmother, and although I've never had any examples of a successful marriage, I'd still like to get married. I’m not in a rush, but maybe my age has something to do with that. Most women are under the impression that if they don’t get married by a certain age, they never will, and I think most men are under the impression that there'll always be someone to settle down with when they get ready.
“Unlike women, most men decide they're ready to be in a serious commitment then look for a woman they're willing to commit to; whereas women tend to already know they want a serious commitment before they even meet the man they'll eventually commit to.”
– good ol' WIM.
I think there’s less a push for black people to get married because there are so many single parents and single handedly raised children that are doing just fine. If I were to get pregnant right now, as an 18 year old young woman, m̶y̶ ̶m̶o̶m̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶ ̶k̶i̶c̶k̶ ̶m̶y̶ ̶a̶*̶*̶ ̶u̶p̶ ̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶d̶o̶w̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶t̶a̶i̶r̶s̶ the last thought on anyone’s mind would be me getting married, I'd need to figure out how I'd raise my child. I think marriage is low down on the list in a number of situations, not just with black men. I don't have the money to pay for my wedding: let’s delay it. I just got a new job: can't juggle both. I need to live a little more before I settle down: marriage can wait. Marriage isn't something you jump into with just anyone: lemme just marinate in this single sauce while Mr./Mrs. Right makes his/her way to me.
Well I think women feel the age pressure more because they don't want to be having kids in their 40s. Because 1)It's more difficult 2)Statistics show a greater chance of some birth deficiency and last but not least 3)They Just don't want to be the "Old Mom" on the block lol
I believe the reason marriage is down is due to "neighborhood" has gotten bigger. Normally you grew up with family and extended family in your neighborhood. you went to school and dated the person from your neighborhood. you married and settled down in your neighborhood by 25. You didn't worry about financial security because you got a job at a utility company (Ma Bell, Gas Company, Water Company, City Job or State Job, factory worker – NO DEGREE REQUIRED) good money good benefits & retirement plan)
Now you need a degree to get a job as a police officer or any entry level job with little skills. so people are leaving the "neighborhood" no family support, staying in the new state you went to college & weary of the dating pool, taking longer to settle down and establish a new place of occupancy.
Black men and black females need to stay in their neighborhood. buy in the neighborhoods. invest in their neighborhoods and make a home in their neighborhoods instead of trying to fit in a world that obviously don't want them.
Never thought about that. I know a lot of people who got married through a hook up via Family, Childhood Friend, Neighbor.
I will say you don't have to staty in your hometown. But if you do move you need to build a network of people in your area. Usually when people know you and what your lookign for, if they do know someone who is on the same page, they'll suggest you guys hook up.
Yeah definitely co-sign on using your network to help you find a significant other.
This sounds good, but how well does it work in reality? I'm sure it does at times, but you have people who "shit where they eat/sleep" and run from their neighborhoods, and others who were led to go elsewhere for opportunities where they had no connections. I get your point, and I agree with it to an extent, but I just wish there was a surer way to make something like this a consistent reality, because I've actually done this (left home twice to move away from NYC to some place where I knew no one, but it came for academics).
Continuing on what I stated earlier: The NOBILITY has been taken out of marriage for a lot of men. Whereas it used to be rewarded and something to do as a final check mark on the list of manhood, no longer does it carry that same prestige. Part of it is the bread winner dynamic and the problems that presents. Another part is, how are married men portrayed in the MSM or in society as general? If we look at television, increasingly over the past 30 years have shown a decline of men as solid, pipe smoking men who have dinner with their family at a table each night. Instead, you see more men portrayed as bumbling idiots who have a sassy, quick quipped wife to keep them in check.
Sure I could say that some black men do not value marriage, damn sure can't say the majority as I still hear dudes saying they'd like to someday, just with some reserves as to how it will go down. One question is: How are you going to convince young men (black, American or otherwise) that marriage is valuable when you don't even value men that greatly in general? If you can't answer that, don't worry…a lot of young men are voting with their feet.
Sure I could say that some black men do not value marriage, damn sure can’t say the majority as I still hear dudes saying they’d like to someday, just with some reserves as to how it will go down. One question is: How are you going to convince young men (black, American or otherwise) that marriage is valuable when you don’t even value men that greatly in general? If you can’t answer that, don’t worry…a lot of young men are voting with their feet.
Just in case they didn’t hear you the first time!
– Rollo Tomassi
…which is why I say women are partly to blame too.
Men are being emasculated in media, and reduced to incidental accessories. In fact, there is a full-on attack on (straight; because gay manhood is worshiped now) manhood. Not just Black. And like everything else, when it's bad for the group, Blacks (in this case, men) have it doubly worse.
Yeah, it's nowhere near the majority. Thank you for this post.
Let's take a step back and understand the purpose of marriage. It's not all about love and romance. It's about family, wealth protection, societal power and religion for some. A friend of mine said that he wasn't 'ready' for marriage, and I countered with – this is what most black men say…yet have a baby with some random woman while they're 'waiting to be ready for marriage,' and a baby locks you to a woman way tighter than marriage, hinders your ability to create wealth, and given that some men have got seeds spread out intermittently – it's hard to gain power as they've got to focus on a lot more spread out all over.
Meanwhile what I observe with folks who don't pine over this magical 'readiness' factor. Man and lady get out of college and marry around 28-30…while they've got school debt and are making ehhh $50k – $70k / per year. They get a place, one person's salary covers living costs, other person's helps to retire the education debt. Around age 35, they've settled school debts and may have a reasonable mortgage…dude decides to start his own business. They live off of her income while he's in start up mode. 10 years goes by, he's working hard, they have a baby or two. They persevered through the sacrifices that they're making as a couple…and boom. He's starting to make real money. His business grows and he's got wealth. He passes that on to his son, who gets married and does the same. They keep the wealth in a FAMILY system. Not constantly worrying about money, the next generations can focus on education and/or expanding into new ventures that help create wealth.
I don't think people view marriage in the right eye – black men/women growing up with the absence of marriage as a part of their life paradigm may have a fantasy that marriage is this fix all utopia of romance and love. Uhhh, not even a little bit. Marriage has historically been about a familial system of stability, wealth creation, and gaining power in society.
Where have you been all day?! LOL!
lol, working. But real talk, when we look at the deterioration of the African-American community – the for me the root is lack of family structure / system (and/or my conservative side would side widespread acceptance of a family structure that is absent of a man leader).
Leadership is not necessarily fun. Leadership is not selfish. Leadership is not necessarily about 'waiting for the right moment.' But there are widespread benefits to it. And quite frankly, I see men who lead a family as those with true leadership qualities. Our community certainly has seen the results of men stepping out on the nuclear responsibility to lead a family.
Most people don't have the slightest idea of what marriage entails. So many are focused on superficial things such as where the person is financially from the onset, or place way too much emphasis on sexual gratification (while important, can be communicated and ironed out in some of these cases that I've read personally, which lead to divorce).
If you put 50 people in a room and ask them what the purpose and intent of marriage is, less than 20 of them would be able to tell you.
The rest end up divorced in fewer than 3 years.
Your comment is everything. The point about men having baby with some random woman while they are "waiting to be ready". Love.
I have to find fault in that premise that men just "have" babies with random women while waiting to be ready, because the woman shares in that responsibility of bringing the child into the world. Roe v Wade eliminated the mutual decision from a legal point so lets say that both men and women make unwise decisions in bringing life into the world outside the umbrella of marriage. Cause last I checked women have legal recourse to delay parenthood if they decide, men on the other hand are at the mercy of the woman they impregnated when it comes down to kids. If two people "hookup" with no allusion to even a relationship, then i feel that it's morally irresponsible to bring children into the world under those circumstances, especially if you can't be honest about the situation, all this headhunting, spitefulness, and using the kids as weapons by both parties has to end. Sorry I got off topic there
Yep, you sure did go off topic. The point of the article is, why do black men avoid marriage longer than every other race? Lady brought up a point that many men will say that they aren't ready, yet spread their seed and tie themselves to a women who is not their wife. She asserts that this ties a man to a woman even tighter than a marriage would, and I agree. So..yes, women do have a role in this discussion, but it still doesn't negate the idea that a child was brought into this world to a man who claimed he wasn't ready for marriage. As for abortion, you are so off topic, but here goes. Not everyone believes abortion is the right option for them. If someone doesn't believe in the option, then they may not choose it for themselves.
FYI – Many folks out here exist because of a hookup. You'd be surprised. Mom and Dad probably won't tell you that story though.
"My husband for example, gave me the "I want to be established & secure" speech when he asked me to wait until after he finished Pharmacy school to get married. After (1) some discussions where in I told him I wanted to build *with* him and (2) some time, where in I showed him I meant what I said about having his back win or lose – he asked me to marry him.
I'm mostly just writing this to the women who find themselves in the same predicament that I was in. Ie, they have a good man that loves them and wants to marry them —> but social norm and fear of failing have stunted their relationship."
^^^^ Al of that is what I imagined when I proposed at 19, yet as I stated in my first comment that never happened- except the last two sentences. Give me a Woman like Amicus82 while I'm waiting for my Ex-fiancée and I will Wife that chick in a heartbeat. Loyalty is damn near #1 on my list of what I expect in people- Friends, Relatives, S/O, etc- and while I did end up where I am, I did and still would do Anything for my Ex, as well as the people I am Close to and can Trust
Let me add that while the R a world full of men out there for black women to marry, My thoughts on this have changed over the years. Given the attitudes of man towards women and the role they expect women to play in many societies around the world, I think culture is a larger barrier to a good relationship than race.
For instance many of the men in Europe arent as concerned about fidelity and going to church on Sundays as u might like, And many of the men in Africa who are traditional, expect a woman to play the traditional role. And let’s not even talk about China and India and their views towards women.
Hey man in the states is not going to expect you to walk three steps behind him, Regardless of race.
The same goes for men who are looking to import women from overseas back to the US. Be careful about that
"My husband for example, gave me the "I want to be established & secure" speech when he asked me to wait until after he finished Pharmacy school to get married. After (1) some discussions where in I told him I wanted to build *with* him and (2) some time, where in I showed him I meant what I said about having his back win or lose – he asked me to marry him.
I'm mostly just writing this to the women who find themselves in the same predicament that I was in. Ie, they have a good man that loves them and wants to marry them —> but social norm and fear of failing have stunted their relationship. "
^^^ That's exactly what I had in mind when I proposed at 19…
One point I haven't seen addressed is also this: Many people who have already been married and have children (men & women) are not in any big hurry to remarry because they have, "been there and done that."
So if the first marriage was a bad experience a person is definitely not going to be running to the alter.
People who are divorced also tend to be much pickier, and rightfully so, they do not want to make the same mistakes and be twice or more divorced.
I've found that more people who have never been married, and have no children are typically much more anxious to get married and have kids as opposed to people who are divorced with children.
I think comparing black men to other races and nationalities is becoming incessantly redundant. Bottom line is black men are black men, not white or Asian or hispanic or any other race. Let black men be exactly who they are, Black Men.
Based on personal experience I've found that Every brotha that got married did so for his own personal reasons. Those reasons vary depending on the man. As individuals every man wants and needs something different from a woman. Bottom line, I think most ALL men do indeed desire to get married at some point in their lives. I would safely say more black men want to get married, than don't want to get married. Nobody wants to live a life of perpetual lonliness with nobody to come home to and nobody to love and love you back.
If a brotha is not married yet, it's simply because he has not found the woman that he wants to make his wife, or he does not want the responsibilities of marriage and children, or he does not deem himself ready for the responsiblities of marriage and children and wants to wait until he feels secure and stable, simple as that. And of course there are some men who just never ever personally see a need to or have a desire to be married. Some men think it's just a piece of paper. They think "If I'm with you and we're together then we do not need to legally define and title our relationship." My uncle is a prime example of this. He's been with the woman he is with for almost 20 years but they have never been married. However he is as loyal and faithful to her as they come. My former roommates parents have been together since college, but never felt the need to marry legally.
I think a better question that women should ask themselves is "why do the brotha's I date not want to marry me.?" This needs to be more of an individual question, as opposed to such a general and vast question, because there will never be any one clear cut satisfactory answer. Trust and believe some sista's are engaged after less than a year of dating. I could have been twice had I chose to marry those men. There needs to be a lot more self reflection and analysis to really get the true answers to this question. This is more of an individual thing that should not be solely based on a general consensus.
You can't speak facts here, they'll call you "bitter."
Some advice for the ladies who are in a big hurry to marry and have children due to their biological clock ticking and them turning to dust if they don't marry by a certain age is:
Try another race. There are a plethora of other men of various races, nationalities, cultures etc etc etc.
Try a new and different flavor if u don't like the one you've been using, and it doesn't suit your tastes.
Informally try to do a "Tracy Townsend" like Jazsmine Lewis in the movie. See Below:
Traci Townsend: A successful and attractive journalist interviews three previous boyfriends to see why they never proposed to her. http://tinyurl.com/tracitownsendvd
I suggest all sista's watch this movie. You may learn something and figure out why you've only been the bridesmaid, and not the bride.
I simply don't believe in this, "just go date another race,' as the answer. Black women aren't coveted for marriage by other races…yes I said it. I've dated white men who said that their parents liked me as a person, but didn't want the family to be 'altered.'
The thing is, there are always exceptions. I have always known people married interracially. It does happen. I don't think it is the answer to all of black women's problems. But trust, I date interracially. I like the math of it too. It just makes my dating pool a bit bigger.
not saying its "the answer" But it is an option
Perhaps the traditionally eurocentric concept of the nuclear family is inadequate for us. I often hear how a 2 person marriage is important "for tha chilren!" Sure it has its benefits, but it's not the only option.
I understand _why_ we've tried to structure our family unit like the white middle class, but maybe we really should consider alternatives. Whatever happened to the "extended family" or communal child rearing or even arranged marriages? Open relationships? This "proposal, ring, wedding, divorce/alimony" thing is for the birds.
I imagine having an estate where the whole family lives on a giant plot of land and the patriarch/matriarch controls it all like a tribal chief. So down the road, it wont even matter if your granddaughter is a single mother since the family helps raise the child and provide strong positive examples for both genders.
Maybe we're hurting ourselves trying to keep up with the Joneses. It could be time to carve a new path.
Is the bible and all that not for us either?
Possibly. Generally speaking, any object/mentality/belief that hinders an individual from reaching their full potential should be cut out of their life post-haste. If the Bible falls in that category for someone, then they should find something that works better for them.
To your specific example, I think most of these mainstream religions are played out. And the Bible confuses people. To keep it all the way one hunned, I think Hoodoo is probably more empowering to black people, but that's probably a very unpopular opinion. lol
Here is some updated information- http://www.census.gov/hhes/socdemo/marriage/data/…
Excited that one of my responses made the main article. I do feel that if women knew that it would be tough to find good men when they were older or that there would be a disproportionate amount of eligible black men to black women, I think black women would make better choices in men earlier. To me I think white women and other ethnicities have a larger margin for error meaning they can goof off, focus on careers or school and still be able to find a decent man to marry later. Honestly speaking from the above post many of you were not checking for the biochem major, book worm or just normal guy. In a lot of ways women go through a phase where they want the flashy guy, athlete, bad boy or thug. For black women in there 20's they are plentiful the problem is when you finally grow up and realize what want and need in a man is different, a lot of the marriage material type men are scooped up, and the ones that are marriage material that are left get to play the field when they probably didn't get the chance to before. Just my opinion lol.
Very true. when I see teen mom those girls have messed up but some of them on there have a second chance and are engaged or married to another man. I think us black women should find husband material while we are in school because waiting until our careers have taken off and are in their late 30's trying to find a man aint working. I also don't think its fair when some women ignore the good quiet guy for the bad boy and when they get dumped or pregnant by him all of a sudden they want that good quiet guy. i'm young but won't waste my time with that kind of man life is too short and when you black u only have one chance.
My comments were removed but people like Adonis can run though and say all types of cray ish? I.am done.
I'd like to know what you had to say.
I wish I had the same privilege when I am on ClutchMagOnline.
Being a hater does not suit you.
This is probably why white, Indian, asian, and even African families try to dissuade their daughters from dating black men.
Marriage is actually important to other people, whereas according to some of these comments, it's not of "value" to black men.
And this is nonsense also. Black men, who typically have the fewest resources out of any ethnic group, have little incentive to marry unless they ARE financially stable. They are just sex partners to curious non-Black women when they are poor, and are suddenly desirable to these same non-Black women when they are rich. For the one or two benefits that marriage provides, there are 5 or 6 negatives that come from marriage nowadays, and like everything else in this world, whenever something is bad for everyone, it's DOUBLY bad for Blacks.
It isn't even that complex. It has more to do with them buying into the lies that they've been taught about Blacks without ever coming into contact with any (particularly the new immigrants), and really believe that Black men are subhuman, unworthy and overall less-than.
Which is foolish, but that's why, not this whole marriage assertion. They push their daughters on to the "White is Right" nonsense, as if white-washing their lineage makes them better.
I don't disagree with you, because that's valid in a lot of cases. Of course I made broad generalizations, but being from a black immigrant community, I've rarely heard stuff about "inhuman" or "less than." I have however heard feelings about black American men not regarding marriage seriously, which is the reasoning for some of these parents' apprehension towards black (and frankly American) men.
When I said "this" is why, I was talking about all the articles like this (and the multitude of comments) that I see which suggest that marriage is of less value to urban black men. And yes, maybe it was a low blow, and it was definitely reactionary, but there's definitely a shred of truth.
This is probably why indian, Asian, and African families try to dissuade their daughters from dating trolls, because they make no sense and make broad generalizations. Some black men in America don't want to get married or have their sheit together, but there are also some who do and are marriage material and so I will stand up for them.
You're right. Ultimately it doesn't matter. And no one should give a f*** what other people think about them, as long as you know what you want and go after it. i guess my comment was pointless and wrong….
Why am I not in a hurry to get married? Because for me, finding that one, great woman to be committed to for the rest of my life has the EXACT same appeal as the option of dating multiple women, not talking any financial risk and enjoying the fruits of my hard work… hard work that wasn't attractive to women when I was younger.
I think some avoid marriage until late for 2 reasons either they are playing the field and don't want to get married until they old or they haven't found the woman that is marriage material. People in America are getting married at older ages than the previous generations and focusing more on college and money. Here it seems we are losing the way of our parents and grandparents generation. They would get married at younger ages because family was very important and people owned businesses that they wanted to pass on to their kids. Now it seems family isn't important but money and education are. Family used to be people who you lived around that would help u and u support each other, now its everyone for themselves. Also a lot of women think just having a college degree makes them an automatic catch and can't cook,clean or do anything outside of the office. In other words men and women aren't what they used to be so they are putting off getting married because they want time to themselves and to build their money instead of building a family and a life together.
It’s hard because I know many brothers who feel the need to be established before getting married, but I really believe that together, with a goo woman they could go so much further and faster. We must learn to trust and lean on one another. So difficult when we’ve all experienced so much pain related to relationships and chasing out dreams. I am in total agreement with waiting to marry until you are sure you’re ready, because that should increase the rate of a successful union. Patience, trust, honesty and love I truly believe will save us all
Very true and the dudes that's really trying to be successful out, we do want that good woman by our sides. The thing is, alot of woman don't really understand what it takes to grind and make sacrifices. I been there before and it's frustrating, so as much as you want your queen by your side, time waits for no man and you just have to proceed.
I agree fully.
this whole post & subsequent comments are just sad…i mean just one great big pity party!
It is what it is.
I notice a lot of black men don't value the women in their lives. Not saying they all have good women but many of the ones that do feel like those women are disposable because black women outnumber black men so no matter how much that woman loves them or how good they treat them they feel like they can string her along until she gets tired and leaves because they can just find another.
That used to depress me because I used to really be into the "black love" thing but I didn't realize that black men didn't feel the same. Luckily I got over the stupid obsession I had with having an all black family because I probably would have ended up like so many black women, single and waiting for a black man that will never come. Black women should be more open to dating other men, not saying they're better but you have a better chance at a complete family, being appreciated, and being loved with another race than you do with a black man.
When I finally started dating men of other races it was completely different, I'm the only one out of my group of friends that is married because I'm the only one that stopped dating black men. It's sad to know that those good women will more than likely never get married and get the family they want and work for because they still have faith in men that think of them as disposable.
Saying it's lame doesn't make it untrue.
when you have something to add to the actual discussion, then we can talk. go spam somewhere else.
ahh yes, calling me a spammer because you don't like what I said. I see.
honestly, i dont care who you date. it has nothing to do with why black men hold off getting married. when you have something to say that adds to the discussion, then we can talk.
You do know that you didn't have to reply to my comment, right?
i just called your comment lame. try to stay on topic and stop spamming.
RandomRN88: "I'm the only one out of my group of friends that is married because I'm the only one that stopped dating black men.
So…your friends aren't married…because they only date black men? Something tells me there's a missing link between your correlation and causation.
"Something tells me there's a missing link between your correlation and causation."
If you say so.
scratch rarely–insert never.
Interesting article I found on singles…. Contrary to belief, this should hopefully give the women some hope. It's only broken down by age, not race, but still. Looking good!
"Among 20- and 30-somethings, almost every single city in America has more single men than single women. Although no single woman in New York will believe it, I promise it's true."
Deadbeat dad stay winning
"Is Marriage for White People?" (book) http://ismarriageforwhitepeople.stanford.edu/
Even on a good day there are probably more Black women that want to get married than Black men. What Black women need to do is date and marry outside there race at greater numbers.
Ok, I've read most of these comments but I think one thing has been left out…fear. Fear is powerful and motivates us to do some crazy things. It also prevents us from doing things. Those of us who have been married, divorced, or in long term relationships understand that there are no guarantees. There is no formula to ensure eternal happiness with your significant other. There are some times you may very well loathe your spouse. This uncertainty creates fear because what we see on tv does not match what actually happens in a relationship. So we avoid it. My rule remains to never operate out of fear whether it involves being in a relationship/marriage or leaving a relationship/marriage. Be the best you in this world and that really is the only purpose. Everything else is just extra and makes life that much more adventurous. Enjoy it!
*Claps hands*…yessss. Why struggle,beg,and plead for a black man to marry?? Just marry another race! There are plenty of options for white men too but u don't see them making excuses!!! They find a woman and marry quickly. That's it…no damn excuses!
my name is Clara
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I say black women reduce our numbers by seeking educational opportunities abroad and exposing ourselves to new opportunities. You're always respected when you leave a situation where you're mistreated or not valued. I do this with jobs already, and it would not be any different with a man. I know that if I have a daughter, I will send her away out of the country, come marrying age. Possibility is better elsewhere.
We’re a group of volunteers and opening a new scheme in our community.
Your web site provided us with valuable information to work on.
You’ve done an impressive job and our whole community will
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Married at 20. Divorced by 39 (Her choice) 2 Children now grown. Own house. No car by choice. (Gave my E-class to my daughter for college) Half way done with MY education. Earns 30k. House note $250 per month. 600 beacon score. I have a license (cal) that allows me to earn 150k plus with a PHONE CALL. I currently don’t touch a clock to get paid. I kill what I eat. I’m a suit and tie brother. I own a IPhone 5 lol…cause it’s works GREAT! I live in a small city and I UBER everywhere. At 46, I’m now looked down upon by MOST sisters due to my chosen financial status. I chose to live LOW ( more $ more problems) I’m a conservative christian whose never missed a Sunday service in my life!
Why I’m not persuaded to marry.
I’m comfortable. It’s peaceful. I’m stress free. God has made me joyful in my celibacy. I do date. Then I come home to silence and my PITBULL. I don’t think now I will EVER marry again.
For my Legacy…I have an Insurance. For companionship I bought a dog. My children are grown so…not worried about family structure. Sometimes I get lonely. Then I think about marriage and I get over it quick!
Finally…I would like to say.
Love is BLIND.
Marriage is the eye opener.
Divorce is a slow…painful…death.
I’m good. Actually IM GREAT.
I hope everyone on this blog finds love and happiness. I love being single and I’m happy.