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What Happened to First Dates?

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Happy_Black_Couple

I was at an event where I ran into some old classmates. I found myself in a great conversation with one of the guys I knew. And after some drinks and laughs, he asked me out on a date. Actually, his words were more like, “We should hang out sometime.” Even though I internally gave him the side eye, I agreed and we exchanged numbers. Later during the week he texted me (didn’t call), and we made plans to hangout downtown. The location was to be determined, but we picked a popular area and decided to take it from there. We continued to text during the week, and decided to go out the following weekend. Once the night came for this “hangout” I got all jazzy and was really looking forward to continuing our conversation from the previous weekend.

I get downtown and walk into the spot we agreed on, I see dude in the corner…. at a table with his boys. If you could imagine a blank stare at anytime, that was the time. Despite my intuition to leave, I go over to him…and his homies, and ask him to go chat. During the chat he explained that he thought I was going to bring my girls, and we were all supposed to have drinks and chill. I just looked at him. Then, I walked away. That non-date was over.

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I can’t understand how he thought us agreeing to “hangout” was the same as establishing a group date. There’s a small part of me that wouldn’t have even been mad at him if we had actually agreed to bring the homies, but we didn’t. It was at that moment that I wondered what happened to dates? Don’t people have some type of organized face-to-face interaction anymore? I know there was a time when a guy who was interested in a woman would muster up enough courage to ask her out to dinner. I thought there was supposed to be an unspoken order of things that started out with a pleasant “hello” and ended with a walk to a woman’s door at the end of the night. I know that times are different now, but doesn’t it seem things are getting a little too casual?

It’s socially acceptable for men and women to “hangout,” and the formality of dating is a thing of the past. I think both women and men equally play their part in the current state of dating. Women do a good job of being comfortable with causally hanging out and don’t require men to put forth a whole lot of effort or show demonstrable interest. Men know that they can spend minimal time with women or invite a woman over to watch movies, and she’ll usually be cool with it. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with a redbox date, but not for date number one. Men stop asking, and ladies stop saying yes.

See Also:  5 Pitfalls to Avoid When You First Start Dating

The purpose of dating is to get to know someone who you have some type of romantic interest in. This should take effort. Both parties should know what is going on, and it should be obvious what direction you’re moving towards. I obviously missed that memo since I ended up on a group date and didn’t know it. Men will argue all day about how spending money and taking women out on dates is a waste if they don’t know they’ll get something in return. I’m not saying what that something is, but let’s just say they are looking for a return on their investment, which I get. Nobody wants to waste time or money. I just figured if you are a man and genuinely interested in a woman, why would you be opposed to taking her out and showing her a decent time? If something comes from that then great, and if not, at least she knows that you’re a good guy that knows how to show a lady a good time. With the Internet making it so that people are just a click away, sometimes relationships are established before anybody starts physically dating. Social circles bring people together, friends introduce other friends, and maybe dating and getting-to-know-you opportunities aren’t as crucial as they used to be. A casual hangout and some intense gchat encounters could be all that’s needed, who knows?

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What do you all think? Do you all still go on dates? Has the art of dating lost it’s way?

For more of Keita and her tactful opinion check her out on twitter @keitathejedi or at www.keitawheats.com.

Comment(190)

  1. I am a 33 year old woman and it is tough out here; I live in So Cal btw. I am really starting to believe I will be single forever. Everyone is all about instant gratification! No one wants to hold a conversation…and the texting…..sigh…….

    1. This is true.

      Spinsterhood has become more of a reality for many women enjoying the fun & games once they finally look up and realize time is running out.

      Unfortunately for the fairer sex, this was an unforeseen result of the fem lib movement and the shunning of the chaste value system. They saw the benefits of sexual ownership and liberation, but not the costs…..that is until now.

      In these times we are seeing the after effects of the dating market place being flooded with vajayjay to the tune of, "If men can do it, why can't we". The social impact of this attitude has been nothing short of spectacular. With women in aggregate no longer requiring commitment/relationship/marriage/ or even a simple phone call before tossing one's knees skyward, somehow managed to turn a social landscape once thriving with marriage, courtship, flowers and dating into that of a social wasteland ripe with casual liaisons and declining relationship value.

      Seems the more young women continue embracing the mindset of "I'ma do me", the less men are willing to say, "i do".

      It would appear that everything has a cost indeed.

      But you didn't hear that from me.
      Cheers.

      Mr. SoBo
      OpinionatedMale.com

      My recent post Is Your Manhood In Check? Things That Make A Man Look Weak

      1. “Seems the more young women continue embracing the mindset of “I’ma do me” , the less men are willing to
        say, “i do””.

        PREACH!

      2. Mr SoBo: "Unfortunately for the fairer sex, this was an unforeseen result of the fem lib movement and the shunning of the chaste value system."

        It wasn't unforeseen by everyone. It was completely predictable.

    2. @Mr SoBo

      what about all the women living chaste? They are out there but men aren't clamoring to say I do to those women either.. Most men won't even look your way if you ain't f*cking and sure as sh*t won't say I do until they know what sex and head game is like. You're right that the value of chastity is lost but not only on women but upon the root cause it lost it's value in the first place: men. Men started glorifying strippers and "bad b*tches" and giving their attention first and only (still do) to women that made themselves sexually available, so women started falling line since chastity became non-vogue to men. Now that just about every female has about the same mileage (if not more) as men, you say that we should have stayed in the good old way. Plenty of women are, but those same women who are worth committing to are being passed over for the women who aren't worth being committed because they do the things men feel their potential wife shouldn't do.

      I

  2. Firstly, the post picture is DOPE.

    "I just figured if you are a man and genuinely interested in a woman, why would you be opposed to taking her out and showing her a decent time?

    I can explain the rationale behind many men opting out of "taking a woman out and showing her a good time". Its quite simple actually: Those men have realized it is not their responsibility to TAKE a woman out and show her a good time.

    In the perfect world, a date signifies a MUTUAL interest in getting to know one another. Its not simply a man being interested in learning about a fresh faced woman who has piqued his interest. Her acceptance of the date is an indication of her shared and piqued interest as well….ideally.

    Unfortunately, many a men have learned the hard way that this is not always the case, as there are women who have/will disingenuously accept date invitations with absolutely no interest in the man, but rather an interest in the entertainment (i.e. dinner, theater, show, etc) he will be providing….on his dime.

    So, unfortunately for many men, there is an inability to gauge whether or not the person who has accepted the date invitation is genuinely interested in exploring the possibility of a connection. Additionally, even if there is sincerity behind the acceptance, there is no guarantee the two will hit it off, which amounts to both time and money being wasted. If the gent is an active dater, then you can see how such endeavors can get quite expensive with zero promises of success.

    That said, if there is a mutual interest in learning about one another, then it only makes sense that both parties should be showing each other a good time.

    "If something comes from that then great, and if not, at least she knows that you’re a good guy and know how to show a lady a good time."

    Awee. As sweet as that sounds, this is not an incentive for most men (the mamas boys maybe). There is no satisfaction attained from, "Well…at least she knows I'm a good guy and know how to show a lady a good time". Um, no. That is not a consolation prize. That is a gag gift behind door #3. Such an acknowledgment is of no benefit to a man seeking fireworks…unless he himself became disinterested in the woman while on the date.

    Anyway, dating is dead because…well….there is really no need anymore. Marriages are dying and so are committed relationships. But sex is free and thriving. You to do the math.

    It may not right, but thats just the way it is in these times. So if you want dating to become fashionable and meaningful again, then casual sex has to be curbed. Until then, "Let's hang out".
    Cheers.

    Mr. SoBo
    OpinionatedMale.com

    My recent post Is Your Manhood In Check? Things That Make A Man Look Weak

    1. @Mr sobo has the most honest comment I've ever read!! I absolutely agree with every thing that was said. Showing a lady a good time most definitely is not a incentive for men to take women out LOL. The game has changed & lots of women don't know how to adjust so therefore will lose!
      My recent post What Happened to First Dates?

    2. "Marriages are dying and so are committed relationships. "
      Nope, sorry that's wrong. If anything it's not thriving because of ignorant thinkers like yourself.

      Honestly, if you don't want to be in a relationship then just tell the lady in the first place…Don't play games.

      1. Apparently you don't keep up with current relationship trends. Perhaps a little bit of reading will shed some light on current declining marriage rates, particularly in the black community.

        Besides, you have failed to see beyond the surface of this conversation to comprehend that this subject goes much deeper than merely "not wanting to be in relationships". We are discussing the intricacies of the social dynamics at play here. You can exit stage left now. Thanks for playing though.

        And calling me ignorant without providing anything of substance to refute my argument whitens your teeth I presume.

        Mr. SoBo.
        OpinionatedMale.com
        My recent post Is Your Manhood In Check? Things That Make A Man Look Weak

        1. Sorry Mr. Sob…
          I don't keep up w/ "Relationship Trends"…I more so look at reality.
          My bad, PEACE!

    3. As much as I hate giving men a pass not to court women that is true. I have been of going out on dates with guys who I knew I wasn't feeling but pushed by women who say, "you gotta give him a chance" or "at least it's a free meal". Granted I still do those dates, but I ALWAYS pay for my meal.
      My recent post I get so lonely

    4. this makes me feel bad because I am good for going on a date w/ someone I have no interest in simply for the free date…never stopped to think any of those men would feel some kinda way about it. Before I was in a relationship that was a given part of my budget…Like i can put an additional $200 in savings this week because I won't be paying for any of my meals. I don't even fell bad about it though b/c most of the men I "used" in this way were just taking me out to get a$$ anyways….c'est la vie

  3. I'm not a fan of traditional dates. I may invite her to hangout / chill / kick it. But I'm not gonna plan anything fancy or elaborate– shoot I probably wont even pick her up. She can meet me there or drive us both.

    In general, people shouldn't expect special treatment just for being born. Why should men have to go out of their way to make women feel special? Statistically speaking, most women we meet are just average looking and of average intellect. But even if she's been genetically blessed with some good looks, that's hardly cause for a special celebration in her honor. Maybe she graduated HS and college and has a job and saves her money and speaks well– congrats on being like 30% of all Americans?

    Us men are getting hip to this whole entitlement thing– if women want date treatment like in the olden days, then they need to demonstrate that they're worth it. Back in the day, most women available for courting had a small number of sexual partners and that low mileage poon was WORTH courting because that was the only way to get it. But that's not the case nowadays. Firstly, chicks no longer require courting and marrying before offering sex. And secondly, the average woman puts lots of miles on her vag, which lowers the value– you want me to court you for something that you gave away to the sloth 3 months ago?

    Sure, the situation could be rectified by the masses of women (not just a handful) taking a conservative approach and not trying to beat men at this whole "sexual freedom" thing. But that aint happening. Women are horndogs too, and as long as they keep lowering the price of admission, the men will keep taking advantage of the discount.

    1. The interesting yet sad thing about comments such as this, is that many women will see it and consider it is bashing and coming from a place of misogyny and chauvinism. In reality, its literally hipping them to the game and telling them outright how to fix the very situation they are complaining about.

      The reality is that women are losing by leaps and bounds in the relationship game they once fared well in. The adopted belief that "doing as the men do" equates to them evening the score completely undermines their value. Not understanding that such an approach to dating and sex will not work for them in the same manner as it does for men.

      But this is just a very large symptom of a very large problem. Men and women are not meant to be like each other. The more society attempts to make men and women interchangeable by encouraging women to compete with men in every aspect of life, the more disharmony and conflict will occur.

      Last time I checked, men aren't the ones complaining about the abundance of p*$$y. Meanwhile women are complaining about the lack of dates. *cue lightbulb above the heads of our lovely ladies*
      Cheers.

      Mr. SoBo
      OpinionatedMale.com
      My recent post Want A Better Life? Follow These 10 Rules And Thank Me Later

      1. Honestly, I see it for what it is. Misogyny and chauvinism. You agree with his words so of course you think that somehow he's spouting some type of old world knowledge. Enjoy the privilege though. Stop blaming feminism for everything that is wrong with marriage, romance, dating and sex in the black community. The relationship balance between men and women 50 years ago is not as ideal as you might think. If you really talk to some old folks, some REAL down home old folks, you'd realize that it wasn't peaches and cream during those times, especially in regards to marriages. This is especially the case for women.

        The reality is that no one is losing by leaps and bounds. We are all afforded a lot more freedom and choices then we would have been offered 50 years ago. Stop believing the hype. I swear, I thought it was just women who bought into these crazy theories about single black women and all that jazz, but have noticed that men seem to buying into it as well.

        1. If women weren’t losing leaps and bounds, this very post wouldn’t exist. There wouldn’t be a collective lamentation from the mountaintops about being single in their 30’s, unwed and undateable. Have you not read the post? The voice of the author represents the common voice of many we have become oh so familiar with hearing – a sign of the times. So it would behoove you to abandon the willful ignorance and instead pay attention to the social environment of which we presently reside. The evidence is all around you. Will you be opening your eyes like the rest of us, or keeping them tightly shut to avoid shattering the farce you are clinging to with a death grip?

          This is not chauvinism, this is real life. This is not misogyny, this is honesty. ‘Freedoms’ always come at a price; and todays ‘dating’ landscape is yours and of your own volition and ultimate undoing as it plays out before our very eyes. Well, at least for those of us willing to open them.

          So if hipping you to the fallacy of your own dry @ss reality makes me a misogynist, then misogynist I’ll be. Under the condition you get used to men no longer dancing and romancing your sweet @ss into anything other than a bedroom or the back seat of a car on some dimly lit road while you embrace your ‘freedoms’. Is that alriiiiight?

          #LoveJonesFreedomJones

        2. The post exists because it is one person's opinion. Her voice represents her voice. She doesn't represent me, just like you don't represent every man. And every man on this site doesn't represent every man in the world. Period. Like I said before, you've bought the hype. You read some of the articles in these sites and probably other publications that continue to lament about the "depressed single black woman" and now you have gotten drunk on your own hype. Get over yourself. There have even been posts on this site that talk about how most of the articles that say that ish are BS.

          You are a misogynist and you believe you are an intellectual. I get it. We should all cling to the vines of knowledge dripping from your lips, because you and only you speak the truth that will set women free and bring hoards of husbands to the desperate and thirsty. (See I can spout flowery, literary nonsense as well) F— that sh–. I think you are living in a weird screwed up alternate universe where you are an expert on women and your "advice" actually means sh**.

          This is misogyny and chauvinism at its finest, but that is on you. Not everyone thinks the way you do. Thank GOD. I smell a nice comeuppance for you. Men like you often get theirs in the end. But, hey, that is for tomorrow. The biggest loser here is you and men who think like you. You are spouting some false nostalgic BS in a country where that kind of thinking is no longer the norm. Go research the countries that DO still have the mindset you want to emulate.

        3. I agree with a lot of what your saying. But, I'm not gonna discredit all their (you know who I'm talking about, lol) points either. For instance, the amount of free chex has changed the dating game. The financial upgrade for women has changed the dating game. Technology has changed the dating game, etc. And with these changes came challenges. So, all the arguments are not bs. However, its not soo impossible out here that you should start believing that you'll never or should never marry…or that you'll never be happy with a black man (although it can feel that way sometimes, lol)…or that it's all women's fault. That part is totally extra, absolutely.

        4. I think their views are antiquated and just sad, and yeah, I do think most of what they say is BS if not all of it. It all sounds like, hey, let us absolve men of any and all type of responsibility and crazy ish they do and heap all of the blame on women. Feminism is bad and did bad things to us. You know how they have a meme for white tears? I need one for male tears. They don't like it when magazines do it, but they post this ish right here?

          Nah. If they can't express themselves better than that, then there is no reason for me to sift through the trash to pick out any "treasure" (IF ANY) that could be lurking there. Same with Adonis. I haven't completely ignored his posts yet, but pretty much I glance over it and move it along unless someone references something he said.

        5. LOL…you def hear strings and violins playing in the background sometimes as you read, no doubt.

          But, its easy for me not to take this stuff personally cause I know they aren't talking about me, LOL. I am not the problem they describe. So, its nothing for me to read it, take the meat, and discard the fat. I'm able to read and analyze objectively. Now, if someone requested that I "eat a d#ck" on here…or some other type of direct attack, that'd be something tooooootally different. I probably would shut down and not care what they have to say. But, that hasn't happened to me. I don't come off at people wrong on here and they don't come at me like that (not saying you do at all…I can't call the cause of that one)… *shrugs*

        6. I don't take it personally, but for the most part, if I think something sounds crazy, I will make it known. Period. I don't care if they're talking about a woman in China. I am a woman. I care about the human experience, not just here, but all around the world. I can't speak for all women and I won't try to, but I don't let a lot of crazy ish fly because sometimes on the internet people think silence means acceptance. I am expressing my dissent.

          Also, I know what you're referring to. Ignoring it. The internet is an interesting place. Sometimes I wish I could see the "real" lives of internet trolls. Of what I've read, they often live their lives very differently from the ones they portray online

        7. That's understandable. But, honestly, I don't take that stance cause these women do exist, lol. I've seen them. I know some of them. My little brother just talked my head off about one of them just last night! The delivery is hard to take sometimes, yes. The content makes women look bad at times, yes. But, I can't get on my soap box to defend the women they are talking about…when I know full well they exist and do exactly what they speak of. And, its not just a couple of these women out here….there are plenty…which poses a problem for men and dating. Now, I am a woman and I call bs when I see fit but umm…yeah, lol. All they speak is not fantasy or excuses…not all of it. Does that excuse the delivery? No. But, truth stands regardless of the delivery.

        8. That is just not how I live. The delivery is horrible and the message is just plain bad. I choose not to sift through it, for that, I am definitely unapologetic. That is my choice. You can see the grains of "truth" and I see BS. It is what it is.

        9. …and you are not alone, lol. As I said, its understandable. I disagree only in part (since I agree with much of what you originally said).

          This is def where my thinking parts ways with plenty women and becomes unpopular…it's not the first time and it won't be the last. I'm used to it. *shrugs*

        10. @Cynicaloptmst81

          I appreciate your ability to engage dispassionately and observe the social world we live in without rose colored glasses, particularly concerning your fellow sistren. For some it is all too easy to place one's allegiance above critical unbiased examination. Very refreshing to see that there exists a reasonable mind on here willing to explore the points of view put forth as opposed to resorting to knee jerk emotional retorts and ad hominem. You should comment more.
          My recent post Is Your Manhood In Check? Things That Make A Man Look Weak

        11. I get what you're saying though. I just don't have that kind of patience. If you package your message properly, I can receive it. When I have to wade through all of that nonsense, that means I am having to work too hard for a small nugget.

        12. 2nd paragraph=GOLDEN!
          Thank you for articulating my thoughts in your entire comment! 🙂

        13. At what point does a man say, 'yeah that's how life is, but I'm not going to be that way". I agree as long as we(women) are giving it up without making it worth his while, it's going to be hard to find men who are willing to stay and put in that time to get to know you better. (However, I also feel that if that you only want to get some after I told you where I am coming from, then you really weren't that good of a guy to be with). It reminds me of the white man oppressing me argument, so I am just going to not excel and take it.

        14. @Southerngyrl

          Yes. I will get my comeuppance while
          those who go throw life as willfully ignorant as you will get three things:
          used, old and cats.

          Perhaps it would be beneficial to take
          a page out of Cynicaloptmst81’s book of thought and apply a more open minded
          approach to understand the on goings of the world around you.  Instead
          of reaching into that dusty overused bag to pull out the old convenient,
          “if a man points out the shortcomings of women, he is a chauvinist,
          misogynist pig” retorts. Because as we all know by now, that is
          so ;profound and never gets old.

        15. @Southerngyrl

          Actually men have taken full ownership of our role in all of this. We have flat out stated that we have and will continue to reap the benefits of women ’embracing their (s*xua) freedoms”. Men are literally singing in the rain of vajayjay. Gene Kelly is turning in his grave with jealousy. Men have made it clear in their disinterest in dating, relationships and marriage that they see no point in investing the time, money and effort in a FREE chexual market place, Is it right? That’s not for me to say. But if you were getting the milk for free, would you buy the farm?

          I’m confused as to what sort of accountability you want men to take here. Are we to feel ashamed for indulging in YOUR generosity? Yes, shame on us indeed for allowing women to exercise their s*xual benevolence as we bask in its sunshine. Someone pass me the sunscreen.

      2. THANK YOU!!! This is much bigger than issues with relationships between men and women. Our society is in trouble. I'm all for the advancement of women in all facets of life, but as women increase, men decrease. As men decrease, society will decrease. There is an order that cannot be changed that was put in place by our creator. You can mess with it if you want too, see what happens.

    2. There are so many things wrong with you and your comments. Sad. I am glad that you do not represent all men. I think i may have to put you and SoBo in the Adonis box.

      1. @SouthernGyrl

        Eat a d*ck.

        So are you willing to admit that women are inferior creatures & in need of guidance from men like me.

        Or you are going to be a stubborn d***a**, and continue to let the republic crumble, because women like you want to play both side of the gender fence & then do the black woman shuffle, when it comes to responsibility.

        Stay classy.

        1. How are women inferior? Women are the stronger sex because we live longer. Survival of the fittest…

        2. @TheseWords

          Stop smoking crack. Please.

          Women live longer because they do not have to assume the risk that men take to facilitate the lifestyles that women today, take for granted.

          Men value is in what they produce, whereas women get their value upon birth.

          Again, put the pipe down, for all of us!!!

      2. @SouthernGyrl

        “There are so many things wrong with you and your comments. Sad. I am glad that you do not represent all men. I think I may have to put you and SoBo in the Adonis box?”

        Why? Because we’re explaining that perhaps putting too many things in their own boxes may be the reason they are unhappy with the current dating arena as it pertains to them? No one is shaming women for their choices and exercising their freedoms to do what they want with their bodies. There has been absolutely no condemnation here. Do what thou wilt right? However, many women are raising valid concerns (the author being one of them), and we are hearing the call.

        What we are asking these concerned women to consider is that maybe…just maybe, what may have seemed like a good idea in the beginning may in fact not be in the grand scheme of things. That there are downstream effects when undertaking such liberties that ultimately do not benefit them in the long run. No one is telling women not to live life as they see fit. We are merely explaining why their modern day approach to s*x and dating has left a good many of them frustrated and lonely at a time they desire real companionship the most.

        Now because you just so happen not to like the reality being presented here (one that identifies women as having a direct hand in their own unhappiness), it is no grounds for you to be dismissive and draw ridiculous associations between commentators that are simply not there.

  4. I think it's women's fault men don't date us like they used to. Just like you said in your post, women have to stop accepting these lazy ass chill sessions. For me if I am really interested in a dude, I gauge his interest by letting him know politely I expect a date out of him if he wants to see me. I'm not high maintenance, so I don't expect anything crazy expensive, but the gesture shows me he is interested and ready to stand out from the rest.

    I think its funny how men are trying to be smart by not taking us out on dates cause they see it as us females getting free entertainment, and I have to admit I have done this once before (gone on a date with a dude I had friendzoned long ago), and that was probably my last time because it is mean to waste a man's and your time….so I get it fellas I get it lol.

    But at the end of the day I still feel most of the men who have responded so far would admit that they would take a girl they really liked on a date if she refused to just let him come over and chill or if she didn't find a group hangout acceptable. And if a man doesn't even want to try to appease you in such a simple way then he is just not that into you and now you don't even have to bother wasting yours or his time on a redbox date, right?

    1. @angie

      The problem here is Price Discrimination

      How am I going to take a girl out & $5 on her, when in her past, she allow three other dudes to spend $.50 or less. That is a sticking point for me.

      But women believe in magic, instead of running the numbers.

      1. How do you know how much this girl has gotten spent on her anyways? Why should it matter. If it matters so much then don't date her lol!!! I would think her personality and whether she would make a great gf/wife would matter more than the price of her dinner plate. wtf is wrong with some of you guys out here?!!

        1. @Angie

          Why are trivalizing a dinner plate. If it is so small, then by all means, take me out.

          I think spending money on women is pointless, esp in light of the last few post I have talked about

    2. I actually don't mind a chill session just to feel each other out as individuals, to see if I really like the way I think I like you. I am personally nervous about dates relationship blogs make it seem complicated. I'd rather get the tension out between us by just chilling with each other to see if we mesh then do something official if it goes that far. But I definitely wouldn't do the come over and chill too many times cuz that will get you FZ'd.

    3. Trying to figure out how this comment was in the negative. Seemed rather spot on to me. (in contexts to first dates…which this post is about I'm pretty sure)

    4. "But at the end of the day I still feel most of the men who have responded so far would admit that they would take a girl they really liked on a date if she refused to just let him come over and chill or if she didn't find a group hangout acceptable."

      I'd only do this if she is genuinely feeling me. If I get a sense that she's not feeling me then it's on to the next.

  5. Well, this is a sad day for SBM. So far, it seems as though the value of a woman is being diminished to her vagina. This is troubling for so many reasons, one being that society has placed a dangerous amount of meaning & value into a woman's physical being, to the extent that it is overriding her humanity. Her worth that exist outside of her gender and genitals. I can only wonder how men would feel if women began to judge & value them solely on what they chose to do with their bodies. Really, I suspect that this would be the end of the human race.
    basically, I would hope that most adults would see the value in companionship, as opposed to the raw value of sex. Sex is cool & all but love is life & God is love. I choose the latter.

    1. " wonder how men would feel if women began to judge & value them solely on what they chose to do with their bodies"

      But don't they? If he sits his body down all day and has no mental drive to do anything. His spine is sinewy and his appendages hang limp and frail like old vines drying in the heat. How will women value him– a poor, lazy, inactive man?

      But let a man greet the sun, with his back straight and his eyes agleam, and reaching onward to make something of himself. His body is fit and strong, and his mind is sharp and he is rewarded with the fruits of his labor. How, then, will women value that man?

      So you see, the produce of a man's body is very often a crucial variable in whatever equation women use to determine a man's value.

    2. A woman's vagina is the portal of our very existence, and that is reason behind the paramount value placed on her genitalia. It is through her vagina that future generations are brought forth. I would say that is rather significant. One could argue that perhaps it is the lack of this value modern woman places on her own genitalia why this discussion is even taking place in the first place. That she has taken God's precious gift to her to create life, and turned it into an X Box for community gaming.

      On another note, what a woman values in a man is not what a man values in a woman, and rightfully so. We play different roles to one other in life and in function. It is absurd to suggest that where a woman places her value in a man is where he should also place his value in her; and even more absurd that her value placement is more noble than his. Its simply different, and the differences should simply be respected.

      Lastly, a man doesn't value sex in a woman. He values the virtue in her. That said, I'm curious as to why is it so troubling to some women that a man would place such a high value on her virtue?
      Probably because more sex = less virtue. Less virtue = "He aint gonna put a ring on it".

      So I understand why you feel it is important for men to readjust their values and focus on other things like companionship, God and love alone. Because doing so would enable those women who would otherwise be deemed undesirable to remain competitive in the market with the women who have exercised…how shall I say…..more prudent dating habits.

      I guess the next time I'm in the mood for Filet Mignon, I should stop at McDonald's and order a cheeseburger instead because I should refocus on the fact they are both from cows.

      Mr. SoBo

      My recent post Is Your Manhood In Check? Things That Make A Man Look Weak

      1. OH PLEASE! Do you not realize that the person who the vagina belongs to holds greater value than the vagina itself? The importance should be placed on her humanity not her physical being because last time i checked, a vagina can't traise a child or contribute to a healthy home. And truthfully, if men valued women in the high esteem that you suggest that we should be valued in as the bearers of future generations, maybe just maybe, our communities would be a lot healthier and more productive.
        Also, I was never asking for a hoe pass. I would actually fit the description of a virtuous woman according to your standards. I am just not a fan of virtuous women being pawned over by less than virtuous men.
        I just think your thinking is really outdated. The fact that all this virtue talk is giving me flashbacks from Ida B Well's Red Record, is not a good sign at all.

        1. @Kimmy

          It is no more outdated than a woman’s desire to have a stable, strong man with the ability to lead and protect her and their family. Interesting that women have been able to cling to their ‘outdated’ expectations of men, but men are chauvinists and outdated for holding women to those same traditional values. I’m not interested in the solipsism and the convenient application of tradition when it benefits you.

          Please make your way to the nearest football stadium and have all the seats you have so rightfully earned. #Double Dutch Standards

    3. Its not always just about sex, even attention, companionship, money….its all too easy sometimes. Women have been duped into fearing their own standards, and its been open season ever since.

    4. "society has placed a dangerous amount of meaning & value into a woman's physical being, to the extent that it is overriding her humanity. Her worth that exist outside of her gender and genitals."

      sadly true, this is the reason many women place their value in their genitals and physical attributes as well, basically dehumanizing and objectifying ourselves.

  6. It's sort of a mystery why many (Black) women continue to insist on treating a buyer's market like a seller's market–and then complain about the results when men with options act like…men with options. The relatively few women who are truly in demand will continue to get the pedestal treatment, where desirable guys make an effort through time and money to speculate on a woman's interest.

    For merely attractive enough women, however, welcome to the 21st century SMP: this is where sexual liberation and gender equality lead, especially when "a good (Black) man" is supposedly so hard to find. Keita and her sista travelers might not like it and are of course free to walk away from "non-dates." Obviously, "hangout" brothas aren't too pressed when that happens.

    "If something comes from that then great, and if not, at least she knows that you’re a good guy that knows how to show a lady a good time."

    This attitude shows a profound lack of understanding of and appreciation for where men are coming from. Winning guys have learned not to care about "good guy" bona fides from women they never were involved with. Indeed, those bona fides are the mark of a chump–at least when he made a serious but failed effort for the "privilege."

    Consider this variation: "I just figured if you are a woman and genuinely interested in a man, why would you be opposed to meeting him halfway on a first date?" The shrewd classy man will be willing to treat a woman to dates once he has some involvement with her. Sensible women have been realizing this–though SMP news seems to travel far more slowly among Black women.

  7. I can understand the vibe of the previous comment. Men hate having to put in work for something another man didn't have to work as hard for. It's not wrong, it's just logical. Women are not wrong for being sexually free. Women need to make sure their business stays their business so that men could never equate your "worth" as it pertains to courting.

    Conversely though, I LOVE dates. I love planning them, I love doing different things. I truly enjoy spending time with a woman who is good company. The reality is that you can't take out everyone. Men have to find means of deciding who's worthy of a hard weeks pay check. That's no joke there.

    To Keita, sorry about your experience. Your guy handled that one as a novice. But dating is becoming a lost art like holding a great convo. But don't fret there's still great daters out there, I promise.

    1. Exactly! If you men don't like the girl enough to take her on a date, that's A-OKAY lol. The girl should accept that and proceed accordingly(by either becoming the come over and chill girl or ending all future communications). And the same goes for us women: if you know you really don't like a guy who asks you out on a date, then decline. I know that is all easier said than done, but it would save a lot of deception and confusion on both sides. To me this is common sense, but people want to make it so much more complicated than it should be.

      And honestly, men need to get over the fact of who got it before you and how much that dude put out to get it. The past is the past, let's move on imho.

      1. "And honestly, men need to get over the fact of who got it before you and how much that dude put out to get it. The past is the past, let's move on imho."

        I don't understand this sentiment. If you met somebody on the street and they said they bought a Nintendo at Macy's for $100. And you're excited so you go to Macys to buy one too, but they look you up and down real slow and go "uhhh… for you… $5000"

        isnt that sketchy? As a human being, you get questions like "sooo.. why am i getting charged more?" "why is it so MUCH more?" "is this even a real nintendo?" "if so, is it even worth it?" "what can i get instead for $100?"

        1. 12 Point Buck and Mr So Bo, I get your Nintendo analogy, cause I am a woman and I love to shop and I want the deal too lol. But wtf?! Why are you comparing women to video game consoles??? We are HUMAN BEINGS which means we aren't perfect. Sometimes men with BETTER GAME get one over on us! Sorry!! It's called a growing experience OR sometimes it's just called horny and i dgaf.

          Men do the same too. While you guys look at how much a previous dude spent on the girl, us women look at how many women you slept with and most of the time us women have to overlook not only a man's number, but many other things from his past, otherwise no one would be dating or getting married. The fact that you are so caught up on whether previous dude bought me lobster or Mickey D's before he got it just seems petty and insecure to me.

          And quick question…Who are you dating that you know how much her date bills are coming out to anyways? Sounds like people need to be more discreet or stop dating your friend's girls.

        2. Just because women find it easy to overlook a man's past doesnt mean men should overlook a woman's past. I'm not gonna give her a free pass on being a ho just because it happened years ago. Insurance companies treat people differently based off their past behavior and I will too.

          It's about fairness. I don't care about the specifics of what the other dude did to get the goods. I just want to know I'm not getting ripped off. If he only had to get her drunk off moscato and whisper some sweet nothings in her ear, then thats as much effort as I want to put in too. Its not insecure to expect equal and fair treatment.

        3. How are you determining who's a ho and who's not though? Do you genuinely know that? Are they telling you they used to be like that? Or does your cynicism about women's morality lead you to believe all women are "like that"? Word of mouth?

        4. Manly intuition.

          Also, chaste girls are fascinated by the anatomy of the peen– you can see it in their eyes.

          Unchaste girls are used to it– all you see is familiarity in their eyes.

          And sometimes you can just ask them– only a fraction of hos lie about it (most try to avoid the discussion altogether), and only a small percentage of the liars are good at lying. So… it aint hard to tell.

        5. Uhm, I'd like to interject if I may; and, I apologize if this is addressed further down in the thread…BUT… I have to agree a little with Angie about the past being the past. You, as the "new guy" can only ASSUME what the last guy did to get what he got, unless the female explicitly delineates what happened with her last romantic/sexual interaction. This is unlikely the case if she respects herself and/or respects you as a suitor..she ain't telling ALL her business at the jump if she likes you. Maybe the last guy didn't need to do much because she just wanted the "D" so she placed no real value on him and had no expectations. However, if the woman is actually interested in a gentleman, she will expect to receive a higher caliber of dating effort that is AT LEAST EQUAL TO the higher caliber of effort and attention that she is willing to put into getting to know said gentleman. Oh yes, you best believe women DO court, and the men who are privileged enough to receive the attention know this. Furthermore…..why would you be so concerned with the "price" of ONE THING?! If you're interested in the woman for more than just, eh hem, carnal pleasures, and she is genuinely interested in you, I can't imagine the mark-up for a date with her to be so stupendously large compared to her other experiences. You can be the judge of whether it is a price you want to pay or not. If she's out just to get you for your money and only have a good time…and she quotes you a ridiculously high price, I'm telling you…she's trying to chump you and does NOT value you. Avoid the date and save your money..you are looking for something more serious anyway. Now if, you are just after the kitty kat, shall we say, you need to find someone with similarly low expectations..which as you and Mr. Sobo have already expressed, should not be too hard to find. You don't need to spend a lot to get what you want in those situations. If she quotes you $5000 for just the chex, and you know she's a "garden tool"…then why are you even concerned? Avoid her and move on to the next. It's common sense…no one is making you spend any money you don't want to.

        6. b_pretty if you the type of woman that will open up your body to any old random joe blow without a pot to piss in or window to throw it out of just for sex, then you are the type of woman i consider a hoe and i don't want to put any effort into getting inside your body either. the way you allow others to treat you is the way you shall be treated. you set the precedent.
          My recent post NEW SLAVES

        7. @Anthony Brian Logan
          Whoa whoa whoa, what's with all the name calling?! I never said I was that type of woman nor did I condone it, I simply stated the undeniable fact that there are women like that who exist, and I agreed with Larry that some may have a past, but that should not have a bearing on their future if they decide to change their MO and respect themselves and their future partners more. Many have tried but FEW are chosen when it comes to my "promise land" boo, slow ya roll.

        8. @Angie

          Sometimes men with BETTER GAME get one over on us! Sorry!!

          Thank you making the point that men need to learn Game.

          Because women have said to us over & over. Being “Good” is not “Good Enough”.

          Women you got the men you wanted. Sit down.

        9. @BPretty

          You, as the “new guy” can only ASSUME what the last guy did to get what he got, unless the female explicitly delineates what happened with her last romantic/sexual interaction. This is unlikely the case if she respects herself and/or respects you as a suitor..she ain’t telling ALL her business at the jump if she likes you.

          May I interject in your interjection. Whatever.

          This idea that you can’t tell where a woman’s been. Is bullspit.

          If you have interacted with a lot of women, and you have decent pattern recognition software, you can get a feel for what that woman has been through.

          Your body & your eyes tell on you before you even speak.

          I give you a “B” letter grade for trying to deliberately obfuscate the issue.

          You don’t want me to shame you into dealing with an inferior man (short, small D, boring, insecure, needy, weak, inexperience s*xually)

          But women stay trying to rationalize why men should date inferior women (OOW kids, hoes, fat women, women w/ no azz/t*ts, mentally ill, older women)

          Men with high body count are more valuable to most women than men with lower body counts.

          Your open s*xual market value is what matter, at the end of the day.

        10. @Adonis Men with high body counts are also more likely to give you an STD. Keep that ish discreet and wrap it up until further notice.

        11. @Adonis…uhm…you proved my point. I fully believe that you CAN get a FEELING for a woman's past, which is why I feel that you should NOT get "sticker shock" regarding her "courting price". If you know she is a woman of value, then you know she will cost you, as all valuable things do. If you know she's not of any value…why are you acting surprised when she quotes a high price? Laugh in her face, say to hell with it and find something cheaper. I also never advocated dating "inferior women" as you put it. I simply expressed that if you are looking for an inferior product (i.e. just the booty) then go for something common and of less value. It's simple supply and demand. If you know she's cheap and pretends to be expensive…why do you care…you don't need her anyway, you've got plenty of the cheap stuff. If you are looking for quality, then recognize quality will cost…within reason. Real quality females aren't after your pockets, and won't expect exorbitant prices. They will however, expect a fair ROI. In summation…if the cheap skank says she wants a $200 dinner. You don't have to pay it and you can still get what you want easily, so why are you complaining?

        12. @Angie

          Women don’t care. They subscribe to the respected religion that is called YOLO.

          An STD is a small speed bump to GLOR-RAY baby.

        13. Sorry, gotta no-sign here fellas.

          I believe her point was just because a dude didn't put in much work in the past shouldn't suggest she is that same person now. Clearly she learned from her mistake and took the advice as to value herself more and not be "cheap".

          Only constant in life is change. Respect those that are trying to better themselves and put them in a better position to obtain their goals, not belittle them and expect them to always be who they were.

        14. Could we examine the idea that maybe the person before you was lying or exaggerating in the first place? Or that that Nintendo he got was busted up and finna die but she was planning to give you the 12.0 limited edition version? Besides, who the heck is checking price stats with previous dudes unless you passing girls around in a circle?!

    2. The key is whether you have a 90 day rule or willing to pop off for netflix and a neck kiss, keep your ish the same. Flirting is a lost art as well, far too often women show their hand too early and to some men “because i dont have to” is more than enough rationale to skip dates and just get to the goal. I shouldn’t know #shewantsthed within the first 10 minutes of meeting, work on ya pokerface

  8. intense gchats eh? I need new contacts…..

    Funny I wrote from the other perspective the other day, that chilling and hanging out gets a bad rep. It comes off as lazy and effortless but just as i would take out a woman i’m interested in, i need to see her in a less pressure, more casual light as well. I cant speak for most men, but i will probably ask to hang and if im feeling it I will then take you out to really get to know you. I don’t think dating is dead it’s just more scouting involved in the process.

    1. Tristian I think the issue is that when dude through the ” lets chill” or the lets ” hangout line” the destination 85% of the time involves his home. No offense but when I hear the ” come over and chill and watch a movie” I assume that your not really interested in getting to know me and just want to screw . Now the example in this article ( other than the fact that he should have be more direct about it being a group hang out) would have been fine with me.

      Personal example: I went to a kickback with a few friends in March. I met this guy, he was nice we kind of hit it off. At first we were suppose to meet up for a happy hour the follow Friday, but something came up at work and he couldn’t make it ( no biggie). So the following weekend he ask me to come over and chill and watch a movie . I’m sorry but for me I don’t like starting off with the notion that I’m a ok with being the ” next flix girl” I told him why don’t we like ” go out”. I guess he thought I was trying to “run his pockets” I had nonissue doing something simply like chilling in the park, or a happy hour( and yes I have my own money). He said that if he enjoyed choking the first time he would have taken me out on a “date” the next time.

      1. but in that same vein, i’ve gone on dates with women who had no interest other than free food and getting out the crib, i wouldnt use that as rationale not to go on dates anymore, theres a lot of assumption on either side

  9. Well there’s a couple of sides to this issue.

    I was talking to my homeboy and he said he feels more comfortable taking a woman on a date he’s already been acquainted with on a friends level. For example his current girlfriend he met thought his group of friends. Basically his boys and her girls hang out , so when he met her , he had the chance to vet her without the pressure of a date but also without pulling the ” come to the crib and watch a movie ish”. Then when he finally approached her , he took her on a date the first time they hung out alone.

    I personally don’t have a problem with hanging out once or twice as friends before a official date. But there will be no house hang outs. If you want to meet up and grab a drink, or just chill in the park, or even if you happen to catch a last minute movie.

    Ladies of dates are what u want dot settle for just being the ” house joint”. I think some women won’t like this. But Everyman you met and may be interested in , might not feel the same and therefore a date is not on his list of things to do with you . Except it and move on .

      1. But see Tristan when a lot of guys say hang out, the first option they throw out is the in home movie.

        I have no problem hanging out in public. Or maybe if your having something at your house, and me coming over and chilling, maybe I'm to stuck on location, but I'm sure as a man if the first thin you do is invite a woman over to watch a movie, the movie is the last thing your thinking about watching. And before anyone says it of course as a woman you don't have to do anything you don't want to do, but on the man's part it's the thought that counts, in this case I feel like the only though a man might have when doing the house hang out is "getting in your pants". (I could be wrong, please correct me if so?)

  10. Sorry, I am late to the party.

    It is amazing how clueless some women can be, and how eager women want men to continue living in the 1950’s, while women gleefully skip in the 21st Century. Credit: Obsidian

    On this site, within a week, we have discussed, The Friend Zone, the ins & out of Men Spending Money on Women, & How Nice Guys Ain’t Sh*t.

    Which basically has revealed an uncomfortable truth.

    “If a girl is attracted to you, she will drop almost INSTANTLY on a little to NO investment”

    “If a girl is NOT attracted to you, no matter how nice, good, sweet & deep your investment is, it is a NO-GO.”

    Ladies, you don’t want us to legislate how you date short dudes, small D dudes, ugly dudes, boring dudes, poor communication dudes. And you damn sure don’t want to be told, who, when, where & how to have s*x & all that it entails.

    Women want to be free & set their terms & rules, until guys start liberating themselves & set their own terms & rules.

    Feminist ideals are all good, until (black) men start benefitting, then we are damn near ready to criminalize it.

    In my opinion, based on the new s*xual marketplace, men should NOT be taking any woman on any dates until he has reupholstered her nether regions with said woman.

    Now, once sex has been had a few times, you can go on as many dates as your little hearts desire.

    Ladies you have to have a firm commitment to freedom. It cuts both ways.

    AND YOU CANNOT BACK OUT, because you are over 30 & cannot find a sucker to take you out on a lousy date where you have no intention to give up the AZZ.

    The unmitigated gall of some of these broads.

    Good Day.

    1. Adonis, every time I see your posts, I say a little prayer for you because you're mindset is so mind-boggling and radical, it's crazy! I can admit, there are definitely women that fit some of your criteria. But do you really and truly believe every. single. woman. fits into your belief system? And should be treated in such a way?

      Listen, I would drop any and every thing that I'm doing if you ever wanted to come to a Spirit-led church, introduce you to seriously decent women (even white ones!), attend a prayer service with you, run down to the altar FOR you, ANYTHING lol to simply attempt to change your mindset dude — even a little bit. I'll never give up the hope that your current thinking will change for the better…even if it takes years (and years and years lol).

      1. @Slimmycakez

        I love religious women! I am trying to smash on a religious woman right now! And she is a negro! And her mom likes me!

        I don’t give whiteness a pass. I give white women an easy time in the beginning & then get meaner over time, and do the opposite for black women. Outside of Latina, I don’t really check for other races.

        I am a New Yorker, give me the weblink to your church, and I might surprise you.

        I think you read into my post too much, or it is just you really don’t get what the average black male has to go through in society.

        Keep reading & listening, and you’ll grow to understand & respect my position.

        Just because I am willing to whoop azz & doesn’t mean I relish in it or look forward to it.

        But you gotta let these h0es know!!! Good day.

        1. I would really love to know what you're like in real life. You seem like that bitter guy in high school who didn't get any play and now you're taking it all out on the internet world and trying to take out all that pent up aggression in your adult life. You got a Facebook?

        2. @DontGetCrazyy

          Let us assume your premise is true & I have you my Facebook @. What’s next?

          And get over yourself.

        3. I just want to judge you based on your appearance to gauge the possibility of my premise being true, honestly. I'm shallow.

          You probably won't. I doubt you'd want such flagrant opinions being attached to your real name, but I figured I'd ask anyways.

        4. @DontGetCrazyyy

          At some point, I am gonna get exposed, so when that day comes, you have the floor.

          And yes, that day might come quick.

          No matter what, my work shall continue.

          Good day.

  11. "The purpose of dating is to get to know someone who you have some type of romantic interest in."

    Just because you chat with a guy and exchange some texts, it doesn't mean he has romantic interests. He may have 'If I don't have anything planned with a woman I do have romantic interests in, I'll hit you up' interests. That's the way the cookie crumbles.

    With regard to a man showing a woman a good time, I think the date should be about them having a good time together. He can get a sense of a woman's interests, plan a great date for HER but be bored out of his mind. It's a give and take. This is why I think women are often shocked when they think they had a great date then dude doesn't call again. SHE was having a great time and he was watching the clock to see if he could make better plans after he dropped her off. (Men who believe they are 10's also get shook when women are unresponsive. It's likely because he was boring, arrogant, or just not the 10 he thinks he is.)

    Dating definitely does still exist. The 'hang out' is the path of least investment. He's not even willing to invest effort expressing clear interests. The same man who used 'hang-out' on one woman will use 'date' for another woman. I accept that every man doesn't want to date or marry me. But more so, I know that I don't want to date OR hang out with every man who crosses my path.

    All of that said, in situations where I have had men try to ease into dating through the 'hang out' he is immediately put into friend zone. Even after confessions of love and caring, no transitioning. I don't do well with men who don't make their intentions known. While he is trying to casually 'hang out' and get to know me on a friend level, other men are asking me on proper dates, making memories, and very clear on their romantic interest in me.

    1. All truth in this comment Ms. Smart.

      A lot of these “where’s the courtship” or “do ppl still date articles” are really “He’s just not that into you” (98% of the time). I personally don’t mind “hanging out” somewhere with a new “friend” if I’m still trying to vet him and not quite sure if I’m feeling him or see potential/attraction past the friends level with him. I’m guessing when most men use “hang out” instead of date, it’s the same thing. Most dudes who feel a connection/strong vibe with a woman is going to ask her on a date.

      1. I would add that when men can't take women anywhere (weak finances, limited exposure, etc.), they will turn it on the women and say we want to much. And don't let him not be able to even pull the type of women he really wants? He will denigrate anything with a vagina. This usually comes in the form of trying to make her fearful of never getting married. Newsflash: Being married is not the end all be all for a whole lot of women. In doing so, these men expose themselves as a weak men who spends more time tearing others down than building themselves up. Their bitterness and frustration seeps out in everything they say and do. All subterfuge everything. It's sad.

        1. "In doing so, these men expose themselves as a weak men who spends more time tearing others down than building themselves up. Their bitterness and frustration seeps out in everything they say and do."

          But women are the ones who stay in their feelings…

          *drops $20 in the collection plate*

        2. I didn't grow up around tender men. But it took me telling my daddy a couple of stories for him to straight up tell me that men can be more emotional than women and they will express that emotion in self-esteem killing ways.

          The unhappy man says will tell you that you look fat and no man will ever want you. The happy man will tell you that you should wear the green dress because it shows off your legs. Then he'll call you on Saturday morning and invite you to go hiking with him. See the difference?

        3. LOL @ tender!!!!!

          Your daddy was speaking truth. But, honestly, I think that's how hurt people regardless of gender respond. We'll hurt, shun and scare off anything that resembles what caused us pain. Its a wall we build to protect ourselves…as if there's a sure proof way to do that.

        4. @Ms Smart

          CORRECTION

          He will denigrate anything with a *BLACK* vagina.

          Because I personally give non-BW/white women a pass, it is understood that we owe each other nothing, and anytime we get together, it is a blessing, not an obligation.

          We do not have that same agreement in black dating universe

          Because in my case, more often than not. These are the type that will talk about “loyalty” and the black community & any other BS shaming tactics because she is 30+ & needs a partner.

          I hope that women get to a point like England where they stop caring about marriage. That is good for all parties involved.

          But you can talk about marriage on most female driven blogs & it gets a lot of traffic & comments.

          But that is not why I replied to you.

          How is the vlog/podcast doing. Wine, Whiskey & Moonshine makes everything go smoothly (so I heard 😎 )

        5. your 'correction' is incorrect; you shouldn't utilize your personal history for a general statement.

        6. I love how you throw age and race into this. I have friends of different ages and races. The only way race even plays into this is that non-Black men seem to tire of extended adolescence at a younger age than Black men. Non-Black men usually feel they aren't successful as men if they don't have a family or at least a wife lined up by 30. The dirty little secret that men don't usually discuss on blogs is that, extended adolescence games get old. They want to come home to someone who they can consistently trust to be there. Or so I've heard.

        7. child…this right here. If I was waiting on some man to do something for me, I'd be somewhere in a ditch or something. They love to say we want too much but it's not about us wanting too much, it's about them not being able to provide it. I'll stay single and having fun,doing what I want, instead of waiting around for some knucklehead to act right. I got countries to see. Ain't nobody got time for that!

        8. Whoa, whoa, whoa. Let me be clear.

          I am a proponent of COMPLEMENTARY COMPANIONSHIP.

          I actually do wait on my guy to do stuff and he waits on me to do stuff. But I am a very traditional woman. And when I date, I DO wait on the man to rise to the occasion. If he doesn't, I move on–which is easy since I don't time my life and body to every man who I share a few hours with. *shrug*

        9. no need to clarify, I understood what you had to say. I just added in my own opinion. It's just weird when some men say stuff about women's lib movement ruining it for women. If I was waiting on a man to get me things in life…I'd have nothing. If you're too independent they don't want you, if you aren't independent enough you're a gold digger. Whatevs

        10. Gotcha.

          Gold digging? Eh. Security seeking is more like it. Why would any woman want to link herself to a man who can't take care of himself? And I know things happen. People lose jobs, cars die, etc. I get that. But if everything in a man's life is shaky, he may want to focus on getting his ducks in order before getting his peen moist. Maybe. I don't know. I've never been a man.

        11. @Smart

          I love how you throw age and race into this. I have friends of different ages and races. The only way race even plays into this is that non-Black men seem to tire of extended adolescence at a younger age than Black men. Non-Black men usually feel they aren’t successful as men if they don’t have a family or at least a wife lined up by 30. The dirty little secret that men don’t usually discuss on blogs is that, extended adolescence games get old. They want to come home to someone who they can consistently trust to be there. Or so I’ve heard.

          Nawl. You & SouthernGyrl & any other man & woman gotta get all the way out of the paint with the “maturity & extended adolescence” argument.

          I made this point & it is not an original thought. This is about legacy/empire building. And about group economics & genetic survival.

          Black American males had the most unique trials & tribulations that no other male has had to face, and that is no dispute. So, are mindset BM have on legacy building & group economics is definitely a cause for concern.

          But, if a successful black male who has overcome all odds, decides to parade all kinds of different women into his space, that is his perogative, he is no different than black women who sleep with a whole bunch of men throughout their teens & twenties. BW collectively are as equal or bigger “bullspitters” as black men. It is just that when they turn 30+ and cannot find a man. We have to hear about our “immaturity” & not the inmmaturity that led to her being 30+ & unmarried.

          Because another part of the game that doesn’t get discussed, is the lack of support & the additional obstacles, the now successful BM in America have to deal with. But you want us to be on the same level as non-BM. We don’t have the same help, we don’t share the same obstacles.

          But back to the point, I would resonate with your point more if women made it a point to PROMOTE the kind of men they say they want, which would resemble non-BM who are in the legacy/empire building business.

          And back to your point, legacy builder is no better or worse a lifestyle choice than a man who decided to use is resources to sleep with score of women.

          Again, women have to be committed to allowing “freedom” for all, not just for their convenience.

          Good day. And I will listen to the podcast, when I get a breath, & some wine.

    2. "All of that said, in situations where I have had men try to ease into dating through the 'hang out' he is immediately put into friend zone. Even after confessions of love and caring, no transitioning. I don't do well with men who don't make their intentions known. While he is trying to casually 'hang out' and get to know me on a friend level, other men are asking me on proper dates, making memories, and very clear on their romantic interest in me."

      interesting. *makes mental note*

    3. Exactly. This "why should I have to take her out on a date when some other man just told her she was beautiful and got some" logic is the most absurd thing I have heard. So, because a woman may have decided to have sex with a guy without going on a date with him first, she should do that for every man after???? So, we are gonna pretend like a man has never went above and beyond for the girl with the big booty or big chest just because she "looked good." Or had the one girl that he would do anything for. If I owe you sex without effort because I did it with the guys before you, then you owe me girlfriend treatment and expensive dates like you did with the women before me.

      1. You seem preoccupied with arguing for why guys who object to price discrimination in the SMP are "absurd." Evidently, such guys and the "non-daters" aren't for you. Not a problem for them: they aren't the ones strenuously complaining. In fact, they seem good with their approach and results.

        No one has suggested that you "owe" sex to any man for any reason. Feel free to keep your sex, or to dispense it in whatever ways you see fit. But you and quite a few other sistas are insisting that men generally owe women blank-slate type consideration–despite common sense. Quite a few brothas have made clear that's a no go and why. More specifically, re speculative first dates: for some of us, it's the principle, not the money.

        Anyway, you can hope to find men who are more your type. Some ladies here have suggested that worthy, available men aren't in short supply, that the negative hype (largely perpetrated by Black women themselves) is somehow intended to keep Black women feeling desperate and unworthy. I sincerely hope that these optimistic ladies are correct–and that many more Black women start experiencing the love and commitment they believe they are entitled to.

  12. "It was at that moment that I wondered what happened to dates? Don’t people have some type of organized face-to-face interaction anymore?"

    Clearly, I've been out of the game too long. And I've only been out of the game for four years.

    And I've clearly been out-Uncle-Hughed today by Mr. SoBo and 12 Point Buck. I guess I'll just sit down somewhere.

  13. This has NOT happened to me…like at all, lol. I've never had a group outing as a "date" with a guy I didn't know. First, I can't even imagine how I would react had that have happened to me. I would hope that I would have played it cool and won the crowd over…played it off openly. I would hope, lol. But, I don't know that I would've been able to rethink my strategy on the spot. *shrugs*

    This post reminds me of Dr. Jay's post about getting asked out for a second date being the point when dating really begins. And, I don't think I commented on that post cause I didn't get it at the time. But, the Saturday before last, I went on what I thought was a first date (dinner at casual spot, reasonably priced, met him there, he paid)…had a good time. Friday, I get this text, "So, when can I plan to have a real dinner date with you?" All I was thinking was that daggon Dr. Jay was right after all!!! LOL! I'm hip to the game now…

    1. Ladies, we can complain about not getting that pedestal/top shelf treatment from go…but its not gonna change anything. The only thing we can control is ourselves. We have to earn that spot with men…and but they should also have to earn that spot with us. We have to adjust our expectations…and not expect too much or even give too much too soon. However, since I treat them with respect and show myself to be a lady (even over the phone), I typically get treated very well when I go out (within reason if its a first date)…and I do get asked out on formal dates. I also ask questions about the date (what's the feel, how should I dress, etc.). By doing that, I think that'll cut down on surprises.

      1. The only thing we can control is ourselves. We have to earn that spot with men…and but they should also have to earn that spot with us. –exactly…. I think we use the term date very loosely (I know sometimes I use it when I really mean hang out). What did this man do (in the article) within a week that made you want to go on a date with him v.s. just hang out once to see if the phone interaction carried over in person (because some ppl are more interesting via text than in person)?

        As women I think we give too soon, especially when it comes to dating. We give up our time, resources and options up too soon, which I think leads to the frustration in a lot of these articles.

        1. "I think we use the term date very loosely (I know sometimes I use it when I really mean hang out)."

          Girl, yes…and I'm guilty too, lol.

  14. I don't think the art of dating is dead. I enjoy dating and taking women out. The issue comes when the chick has no interest at all, but still wants to go out to eat, comedy clubs, and etc. and doesn't let you know she has no interest. You really have to feel a chick out these days to gauge whether or not she is a serial dater that enjoys spending a brothers money and time.
    Now I will say I ain't inviting a chick over to my crib that I hardly know unless I am trying to smash. I will say, it's a TON of women out here who have no problem with meeting a guy on a Thursday and coming through his spot on a Saturday to "Chill." It's interesting to me….I just got a new crib in DC and have had several "smashable women" swing through with the potential of getting my man off, but just couldn't do it. When you at that age of wanting to settle down, the "smashable women" receive no attention as a brother like myself awaits and tries to meet his "michelle-obama like" wifey.
    I tell you, if you are a successful brother (both spiritually, financially, and physically) it's very easy to be a whore out here which in all actuality is not a bad thing for some guys to experience depending on life circumstances, but it takes up alot of time and energy.

    1. Men who have loads of strange women running through their homes are begging to be robbed. Plain and simple. Not to mention, with the technology we have, she can walk through and video where all your nice things are located and give cousin Ray-Ray n'em the lay of the land for when they rob you. (Do you know how easy it is to get someone's alarm code?) This happens and men will blame the neighborhood when it's really that they let the wrong woman into their homes.

      There comes a time in a man's life where maturity and character outweigh easy snatch. This maturity and character is hard to cultivate and usually only comes when a man is truly happy with himself and his life.

      And while it's easy for a man to get women (and an attractive woman to have suitors by the dozen), getting quality (and I don't mean the degreed and attractive), is a lot harder.

      1. "There comes a time in a man's life where maturity and character outweigh easy snatch. This maturity and character is hard to cultivate and usually only comes when a man is truly happy with himself and his life. "

        You are killing me today. Love this.

      2. "And while it's easy for a man to get women (and an attractive woman to have suitors by the dozen), getting quality (and I don't mean the degreed and attractive), is a lot harder."

        I totally agree with the above statement. Quality over quantity rules all the time esp. when you are looking to settle down. Man, if I knew quality would be this hard to find in my early 30's, i promise I would done a few things differently..Oh well! lol

        So question: Where do quality women hangout during their free time? This is for the entire board.

        1. "Man, if I knew quality would be this hard to find in my early 30's, i promise I would done a few things differently..Oh well! lol"

          Tell these folks!!!!

          Quality women?
          Target (not in DC or right over the bridge in VA)
          Wegmans (not the one in Largo though)
          Dish crawls in and around H Street (not to be confused with BAR CRAWLS)
          Bar-b-ques
          Bike trails
          Movies on Sunday mornings
          Total Wines (the one in Laurel)

          I am trying to think of places where women will be along. I would suggest online dating but I think men gloss over the stuff women write and focus solely on the pictures. Don't get me wrong, physical attractiveness is important. But why bother if the stuff she wrote tells you that you have NOTHING in common. I should start throwing match-maker events. Yes. This needs to happen. It would be sobering for a lot of people.

        2. No you didn't specify which Total Wines, Target and Wegmans? LOL. Hilarious. This makes me miss DC so much.

        3. My thinking is that women (and people), who frequent places with piss poor customer service will be the same who are OK that the books at their kids schools are outdated.

          I remember taking a 'frociate' to Target and he was amazed at what he saw. The trick is to be the type of man who can transition a couple glances as you pass by into a conversation, exchange of information, etc. It can be done but it's not exactly easy.

        4. Interesting….I am definitely taking notes. Yeah, you should think about having a match-maker event where quality men and women can mingle. Just my two cents. lol

          P.S. Dish crawls??? Explain

        5. You purchase a pass to go to restaurants in a neighborhood. Each spot has a few dishes you can taste. So basically, a bar crawl with food (and drink).

  15. I've gone on dates, I go on dates. But some of my female counterparts, not so lucky. Overall this is such a loaded topic. I would NEVER agree to a date with someone via TEXT. That's where the first mistake was. And I can't stand a man who can't make a decision. If you ask me to hang out, go out, whichever term you relate most with, you better have a place and time in mind. Now when it comes to the place I have no picks, I'm not going to McDOnalds or TGIF or anything like that but I learned a long time ago whether ifs filet or fishsticks, if he's not a good guy or I'm not interested, the setting and meal matter 0%. So I'm flexible with that. But I think we have to demand more and command more. And we have to keep a clear head. Some of you ladies are out here cancelling meetings and skipping birthday dinners for a first datesasters with Mr. Right Now. Slow your roll, lol!

    1. As much as I HATE what texting has done to the getting-to-know phase, its kind of a way of life right now and I don't look at it as a form of disrespect at all. Context, how often you actually talk, are you (as a woman) a phone person…all that effects the delivery. For instance, I noted above that my 2nd date was established via text. What I didn't say was that the convo started with a "what are you up to" text to which I replied "I'm feeding my kids and running back out for an evening church service"…which means I'm busy and I knew I was gonna be busy thru to Monday (yesterday). He wanted to get on my calendar so he threw it out there to see what days I'd be free (I stay busy…something he's aware of). So, again, I get it…but I don't think its a fair overall assessment.

  16. #1 advice for men: I can tell a lot about the women you date by how you talk about them.

    If you can't take a woman on a proper first date then you just can't do it. I'm in the middle on this one, but i'm honest about it. The first few interactions I have with a woman are pretty much always the same until I know that I would enjoy the "first date." I like coffee or happy hour for the first interaction. I think that's a fair option to both parties. The second, I personally like a group interaction. This can either be her friends or mine or both. I have my reasons for this too. Mainly, I think the first two interactions for me will be shorter in nature with the opportunity to break it off without hard feelings. Now… here's the thing, I would not lead a woman to believe that I had asked her on a first date yet. If I get past those two then i'll take her on a "first date."

    1. "The first few interactions I have with a woman are pretty much always the same until I know that I would enjoy the "first date." I like coffee or happy hour for the first interaction. I think that's a fair option to both parties."

      +1000 I, too, subscribe to this line of action.

  17. I have no problem dating a woman, but it's not something I do willy nilly and it has nothing about the cost. I am more than willing to pay for a woman's meal just because I don't want to eat alone, so I could care less if that's the only reason why she's there. People need to see dating as investments in yourself, not like someone is out to get you. You're investing in a potential companion in your future. If you getting taken advantage of then that's not the person you should be with and the lesson will be valuable. Otherwise, stop being paranoid (read: cheap) and get out there and date like normal people.

    1. +1000 on this Doc J. Bottom line finding True Love and Eternal Bliss is a process. You cannot skip over any part of that process and think things will turn out as how u want in the end.
      Everything you do in life you are Taking A Chance. There are No Guarantees.
      If you don't feel like it's worth taking the chance, don't date at all and stay single.
      Men don't complain about the money ur spending on dates if u are living beyond your means, broke or, have fallen on hard times. Refocus that energy on building up your finances and maintaining them.
      Men don't complain about the potential women who will use you just to get out of the house and get a free meal, see a free concert or whatever. We do not live in a perfect world with perfect people.

      1. We are all subject to getting used, abused and played. None of us is exempt. That's the way of the world. As grown-ups we should no longer be crying about it like we're 8 years old and the neighborhood kids are using us for our best toys. Grow Up. If it's that serious guys just stop trying to date Beyonce's and Alicia Keyes or anybody else for that matter. Get with easy low quality chicks so u can still get layed for free or whatever.
        Otherwise suck it up and move on. Thats the chance u take out here in the wonderful world of dating.
        Another thing u can do is always do something during said date that you like to do so at the very least u can say u did something you wanted to do. When life gives u lemons, open up a lemonade stand, make lemonade, sell it and make money 🙂

  18. i think dating, is a cool concept, and people still do it. as for me, i have plans, but execution isn't a viable option right now. i'm sorry the original poster felt she got 'hoodwinked'…perhaps the next time she's expecting a date, maybe she could talk to the dude before, like someone mentioned earlier, and get a sense of dressing up for the part, etc?

  19. Dude was a sucker. Plain and simple.

    Communication is the most evolving aspect of human interaction. We went from paintings in caves to 140 character communication. I agree that when conversing over text / email/ chat you can get out those early nerves and awkward period so that when you do meet face to face you have have more engaging discussion.

    Ladies really have the power though. If you dont accept certain interactions, dudes will be forced to switch up really. i would caution against looking at alternative communication as "subpar" especially if dude is normal in the sense that when he sets up a chill session, it wont end up being a group outing.

    Thats still buggin me out. Son tried to swindle you keita!

    also, don't get caught up in the semantics. Hang out, chill, go grab something to eat, are all the code words for the classic date. people are sometimes nervous to say the D word, or are just conditioned not to be too caught up over defintions.

    Dude is still a sucker, however!

    1. Clearly he did. He's lame because of it too. I definitely have upped my date standards since then. I do things much differently now. On to the next…

    2. Guys blow me with this fanciful talk about all women have to do is simply stop tolerating mens bs and men will stop magically stop lying, cheating, and bsing and commit.
      Yall ie men, know good and hell well it is Not that damn simple. Men will Adapt. Like they've always done and come up with new game, and new strategies to try to get what they want. If this were the case, Right Now more men would be mature enough to do right by women just because its the right thing to do. They would not always just do whatever they have to do to get what they want, whether its right or wrong.

      1. When your dealing with very childish and immature grown children and their entire mentality and thinking is based on simply doing whatever they got to do to get what they want, be it lie, cheat, steal, or bs, it's very highly unlikely they will "change" and suddenly do the right thing just because they next 10 women they run across say no. They will simply change the game until they find something that gets them what they want and continue to do that.

        1. Plus realistically every single woman on Gods green earth will not be able to say no to mens bs and fold their hands across their chest and not tolerate. As human beings and people who crave love, acceptance, attention, and support more than life it self there will be some people that will not go along with the vast majority of other women and just say no. And those women will have the all the men because the men can get what they want from them and eventually over time all the other womens no's will turn into yes's and things will be back to the way they were. If this did ever actually happen where All or practially All women completely stopped tolerating mens bs it wouldn't last very long. Because men would naturally and instinctively keep trying to find something to change womens minds until they started back saying yes, and or men would punish women for this and make them suffer and we would because we would miss having men in our lives.

        2. The key is compromising and loving people right and for the right reasons. Being mature in your thinking, and ways and being men of integrity, virtue, valor, honesty and good moral character simply
          because as a mature grown azz men you know whats right and you sincerely desire to do right by All women.

  20. We can talk all the live long day about declining standards and men not needing to put in the work anymore because women DARED to enjoy casual s*x *GASP* but we all know that goes out the window the second he decides the woman is worth it. *shrugs*

    This stuff just does not make me mad anymore. For all the ain't shiiiet experiences I've had in the dating world (being in my mid 20s) I've had many perfectly fine ones. I've had a guy ask me to come over to his place and bring a DiGiorno's pizza ; I've also had a guy get a car service to pick me up because the place he wanted us to go to wasn't metro/subway-accessible and he knew I don't like dudes knowing where I live off jump. Dating is inherently a gamble, and sometime you crap out. *double shrug*

    I'm not of the mentality of teaching men how to court. (This also applies to the whole concept of "demanding a level of respect" from men. I'm not gonna waste my time setting a rubric for a guy that I just met to follow. You present yourself how you want – if I'm into it, we can keep pursing things; if not, then I'll let you go off and find your perfect mate). If that's what works for you, by all means, go 'head. Just don't go complaining about the quality of women you're getting.

  21. It seems like in the Game of Dating, your damned if you do and damned if you don't. If you be cool and fall in line with a man's mentality you become a friend, FWB or jump off, but if you do hold a standard for men to meet they pass cuz they ain't about making that much of an investment because of what has happened to them in the past. So you can have standards and be single or fall in line, get screwed (in more ways that one) and still be single. There really isn't way to win. You can be the good girl get passed over (that's a loss for losing) or play the game harder then men do and lose options cuz their egos can't accept it (that's a loss for winning).
    Call me Ned Stark or Jon Snow but looks like either way I'm out.

    1. @uit

      I feel for people like yourself. Assuming you are not an imposter (because we have a lot of people claiming to be one thing when they are the other.)

      What you have to decide in life, is that, do you want the man or do you want the goal. Very few women can have both.

      In this s*xual market, it is not about being good or bad, it is about VALUE.

      Do you want to be a married woman (goal)? Then you will have to consider the best man out of your dating pool willing to give that to you.

      Do you want to be with a particular type of man? Then you will have to subject yourself to his rules. His ball. His bat. His rules.

      No matter what path you choose @uit, there is no perfect relationship, & there is no perfect man. Being a married woman is not all good, and being a side piece/jump off is not all bad.

      But let me be consistent, you have freedom to write your own rules & you can go as far as your current s*xual/marital market value takes you.

    2. Uit: "If you be cool and fall in line with a man's mentality you become a friend, FWB or jump off, but if you do hold a standard for men to meet they pass cuz they ain't about making that much of an investment because of what has happened to them in the past."

      Which means it was the wrong guy for you. Move on. Literally thousands of people get married every year, so there are men out there that commit.

  22. hate to say this but the problem isnt men vs. women, its a lack of cultural respect. most cultures outside of american culture understand the importance of one another and how together they must honor, respect and contirbute to their culture and that usually starts with a basis for embracing one another and not trying to play/hurt someone else in order to prop themself up. you look in dc and see all these ethiopian women here and for as much as they get it in/party or whatever, ethiopian men will never expose the women as birds, ducks, hoes, cuz they represent one another

  23. Nothing happened to first dates. I got into my current relationship by dating. Those who are in relationships and marriages that I know dated…with few exceptions. This (and articles like it) is moral panic. I agree with many male posters…you can't date everybody who thinks they deserve it. Most single folk I know just meet for coffee or drinks first to vet each other, THEN progress to the courtship rituals

    The guy just didn't want to ask you out. Unless arranged marriages are forced on us, dating isn't going anywhere. Even if dating died, it would rise again on the third day.

  24. Speaking of the exceptions, what about people who hung out socially but then discovered that they were hot in the crotch for each other? What if the people involved were just fine with that? Whether it works out for a "happily ever after" or just one night, who are we to judge? First dates are cool and all, but I'm Mr. Live and Let Live on this one.

  25. I have succumbed to the come over and chill date ONLY once. I also let him know it usually doesn't fly, but he was sick and I did want to see him and hang out. This was 6 months ago, and he eventually started taking me out, but I wouldn't say we ever had a dinner date, which I am perfectly ok with. I hate dinner first dates. I like to do activities. Go hiking, go to the gym, go have a drink, go wine tasting. For me, it isn't necessary to have a first date per se, as long as we are getting to know one another, I don't think it matters what exactly we're doing. I discuss it more here: http://30thoughts.com/2012/06/07/what-is-a-date/
    My recent post I’m Forever Single…I Live in L.A.

  26. Interesting how a topic of First Dates turns into a whole other discussion of myriad relationship topics.

    At any rate, keeping just to the First Date subject, I have no problem asking a woman out on a first date. I subscribed to what Dr. J. said earlier as far as my approach. Usually something real casual (happy hour, coffee, etc..) just for initial interation and if both parties seem interested I'll ask for an official "date".

    But that's just me.

    1. Larry: "Interesting how a topic of First Dates turns into a whole other discussion of myriad relationship topics. "

      I was sure thinking the same thing. All kind of issues with the opposite gender popped up in the comments.

      Maybe I'm old fashioned or a simp, but I don't mind going paying for a first date. Not coffee and a trip to Barnes & Noble either, but a real date. It's not like I'm going to miss the money. I understand not wanting to feel like you've been used, but still.

      1. Agreed, same here for a "real date" (I guess whatever that means, lol).

        Interestingly, I've found quite a few women like the initial happy hour first interaction as it puts no real pressure on them (as opposed to something more involved and detailed) and is almost looked at as a more interactive substitute than the first long phone call.

        Pretty sure I've never invited a woman to my crib for a date or to hang out right after I first met her like some dudes out here apparently do. I'm kind of shocked this happens consistently (according to folks on here)

  27. What about ladies asking men out on dates? do…or don't? Especially for those in their 20s, I've been thinking about doing just that.

  28. A few of the men on this site have definitely struck some chords within me.

    Some of these males are equivalent to the "bitter black woman". The "every man is a dog", or "no man will ever be able to be more than what he is", type of chick. She's been hurt. Sometimes she could have seen it, sometimes she couldn't have, but the pain is so deep that she can never speak from an objective point of view. I like to change it for those men as the "bitter black man syndrome"

    Regardless of what the truth is, it lets me know that some of the guys are dealing in the circle of wrong chicks and no matter what gem comes across their desk, they will not be able truly appreciate that gem because they are tainted. I've had my heart broken, and I could see someone going down that path of "men/women ain't sh*t, but I didn't do it because I know good men are out there, I just needed to up my standards.

    I do not believe that a woman's worth is solely all on her vagina, just as I do not expect the worth of a man to be determined by seeing if he can change my tires, paint my house, and do all types of manual labor. Now, do I agree women should be a slutty chick? Nah, not if you want to be married. People shouldn't be able to walk to your man and tell him how you know how to work that thang. I also do not agree that a man cannot do ANY type of manual labor, but always calling someone to fix something. I think the term "Man up" may apply.

    What I learned is that men will do what you allow them to do. If you do not set the standards of being a chick that he needs to take out on a date and court, then you will get the same game that he gives ever other girl. However, if you set that expectation and he chooses to meet it, then give him a chance. But if he doesn't send him packing. In the same way that women need to step their game up, men need to do it as well. If you approach a woman with standards, change your game but do not get mad if she doesn't sweat you like the other rats because of the bare minimum that you choose to do.

    We both need to do better.
    My recent post I get so lonely

    1. @payne well

      I think bitterness makes for great Internet Entertainment.

      But I have no idea how none of y’all live & what are you like in realtime.

      So I reserve judgement until then.

      1. It can, I hear this thing called "trolling" is what people do to incite panic among the normal and pass time. 🙂

        but you learn from it and hope that you get something good from the deal.
        My recent post I get so lonely

    2. Girl, I cosign this entire post!!!! Some of these men are so scared a woman is going to hustle them out of a $10-20 meal and not get anything in return. "I'm not taking her out on a date because the last woman I took out only went for a free meal." WTF???? Surely these aren't grown arse people saying this. One thing is for sure. Bitterness is not solely a woman trait.

  29. I got tired of reading all the comments so I hope I am not repeating what someone else has said…but my take on this is you get what you deserve. If you meet a man and he asks you out and your first date is some kinda "non-date" that is because he obviously thinks that is what you are worthy of. Instead of asking what happened to first dates – you should be asking why men don't take YOU on real first dates.

    All people judge you from the moment they see you. Obviously, something in you says easy, otherwise you'd be on a real first date. Don't make this a societal, black man/woman, relationship issue because it's not… It is a YOU issue. Step ya game up boo – become first date worthy before you start asking for it. 🙂 Just my two cents 🙂

    1. It could also be that he used that same game with other chicks and it worked for him. So instead of him changing up the game, he decided to use what he had to get what he wanted. I mean if something isn't broke why fix it?
      My recent post I get so lonely

  30. How odd… I don't mind a first date being casual, especially if you have no history with that person and want to make sure you have proper exit clauses should they be cray, but he didn't give you any kind of indication that this was of the 'honey check it. Tell your friends to get with my friends. And we can be friends' variety? Then he's wack for that. And that's that. I don't think every dude I talk to wants me or wants to take me out just because, but if I'm being invited somewhere a, 'oh don't forget to bring your homegirls' kinda makes things clearer. This situation aside, people still go on first dates. What's an acceptable/proper first date is all up to you, your preferences and your standards. But first dates do happen in these 21st century streets!
    My recent post Help Needed

  31. After reading through the comments, there appears to be a bit of confusion that is taking place.

    1. The situation the author describes boils down to more than just miscommunication easily remedied by a pre-date conversation. She has recognized a common theme in the dating arena where she observes a growing disinterest from men towards traditional dating. She wants to get to the root of WHY this phenomenon is occurring, not simply how to avoid a 'hang out' misunderstanding going forward. Lets not oversimplifying the concern the auhor has.

    2. There seems to be a gross misconception in this thread that the men here are the ones complaining about how things have changed. I'm not exactly sure how providing an explanation has become synonymous with complaining. 0_o ?

    Let us not ignore that over the last few years it has been women who have become extremely vocal regarding their confusion & disatisfaction with the dating scene as it pertains to them having difficulty procuring relationships, committtment, marriage, and now dating. Being the primary consumers of relationship self help books, it is all too clear who is having difficulty navigating the dating terrain while balancing upon realistic and unrealistic expectations.

    So lets please put this back into its proper perspective. The author (a young woman) broached this topic and rightfully posed these questions today. The men answered truthfully. If you are one that cannot handle the honesty in the answers given, then that is your issue. The responses were respectful and werent meant to shame, disrespect or undermine women; but rather to provide direct answers to a direct question. Was it a tough pill to swallow for some? Perhaps. But sugar coated words cause cavities and pretty lies are to your demise. In the end, no one likes to hear they are the cause of their own problems.

    Mr. SoBo
    OpinionatedMale.com

    My recent post Want A Better Life? Follow These 10 Rules And Thank Me Later

    1. @MrSobo

      Great commentary by you. I appreciate. Talking like you is no fun, so I have to add my spin on it.

  32. I think hanging out whether alone or with a group IN PUBLIC is a better way of getting to know a person. Men don't feel like their losing out on money and women can feel like the dude isn't going to try anything overtly sexual.

    A date would come after it being established there is mutual like between both parties.

  33. All I can say to these comments is WHOA!!! I don't even know where to begin. I must say I am a bit dismayed that it turned into another battle of the sexes. I see that we still can't have a grown up, objective conversation about this without some people getting in their feelings. Seems to me that traditional "dating" has become rather antiquated since the latter part of the 20th century. I humbly offer the opinion that men generally have adapted quite successfully, while the ladies generally speaking not so much.

  34. I hear a lot of reverse psychology, hypocrisy, and selective ideology going on in most of the ladies comments. So are we to pretend that culture and behavior shifts from both sides of the gender aisle haven't contributed to the current state of affairs? Is it as simple as "ladies stop doing this and men…", or men being chauvinist and whatnot because we call shenanigans on the so-called "21st century woman"? Dating is not "dead", but just as I fell about true hip-hop, it is definitely on life support. If we are to breathe life back in to this traditional notion, we both must examine truthfully, and with flexibility the roles in which we play a part in today's dating scene. We can't have it both ways, and ladies I respectfully feel that generally speaking, this is what you express whether subconsciously or purposefully. The tree that doesn't bend, BREAKS!!!

  35. "America isn't easy. America is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight. It's gonna say "You want free speech? Let's see you acknowledge a man whose words make your blood boil, who's standing center stage and advocating at the top of his lungs that which you would spend a lifetime opposing at the top of yours." — "The American President"

    I love that movie, and especially the great monologue at the end, from which the above quotation is taken. I often don't even bother to read posts like these on ANY site, not just SBM, because I know the comment sections will be full of craziness. When they are this, I simply read the comments, rather than adding mine. But I thought we should all take a moment to understand that all of the many sides of this argument have a right to speak their mind, and that's a good thing, even if you disagree with what they're saying. 🙂

  36. I've seen a picture of Adonis. He looks like a black bugs bunny! For real….

    He's delusional and is not the man he proclaims to be on here at all. He's a socially awkward misfit living a life full of delusions of grandeur. Don't let him fool y'all!

  37. I think the author’s experience has more to do with a basic, primeval desire of man to have sex with as many females as possible, with minimal cost to him. The casual hangout facilitates this, since financial impact to the male is significantly lower than traditional, formal dating with the possibility of coitus if the chemistry is right. Casual hangouts are a function of the male’s economic perspective and not a consequence of the saturation of vajayjay in the market. Not all men can afford to date. Females need to be aware of this.

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