Until I started having substantive conversations with a female friend who has a history of emotional trauma, I had no idea why so many women choose to act in masculine ways. I didn’t understand why the concept of the “fierce” woman was seen as a desirable model for behavior. I thought these women were difficult by nature and proud of it because they didn’t really want a man, unless he was a doormat or asshole supreme. I couldn’t understand why some women wanted to dominate men, so I assumed that they were either sadistic or domineering. Not only that, but I assumed that they didn’t want to be loved, they wanted to use men and be self-aggrandizing while also complaining about the quality of men they attracted. Then I really got confused by two things. First off, I came to realize that these women thought their behavior was attractive. To make matters more perplexing, they expected attractive men to find their behavior attractive (or acceptable).
My friend said that the influences these women have in their lives (family, friends, frenemies, and the media) have convinced them that feminine ideals of kindness, humility, and submission are weak, humiliating, and pathetic. Taking it a step further, they feel that they have to sacrifice “respect” if they want to be feminine. My friend believes that women try to take on masculine qualities to overcompensate for their feelings of vulnerability.
As a man, I think it is okay for a woman to display certain masculine traits in moderation, but when they are used as a defense mechanism they rarely benefit women in their relationship to men. First and foremost, they turn off the quality men they are seeking to meet, and are left to pick and choose from an array of submissive men, or assholes who take pleasure in hurting or embarrassing them. This last category of men inspires some women to develop a petty ego and try and go tit-for-tat with the men, in the hopes that they can “one up” them to win his respect. There aren’t many bigger turnoffs than this. Masculine men want feminine women.
In “The Art of Seduction,” Robert Greene summed it up: “Seducers draw you in by the focused, individualized attention they pay to you. Anti-seducers are the opposite: insecure, self-absorbed, and unable to grasp the psychology of another person.” A woman who can’t grasp the psychology of another person or doesn’t care to do so is just as unattractive as a woman who would prefer to be manipulative rather than empathetic. A woman like this doesn’t (appear to) want to learn from you or expand her own perspective, she wants to impose hers on you and get you to see the error of your ways. She even expects you to validate this self-absorbed chaos. She would rather complain and argue about “the way men are” than figure out what common ground the two of you have and try to work with you. Rather than understanding why you like what you like (and dislike what you dislike) she’s busy concocting a cynical theory about the disconnect between the two of you and blaming it on the “male ego.” or you not being able to “handle her.”
My friend has shown me women are capable of change. She says she used to be just like these women, so she understands that their defensiveness blinds them to how unappealing they appear to the type of men they hope to attract. Getting past those defenses requires a lot of humbling of oneself, especially when the woman has come to enjoy her aggressive and destructive ways. I can’t really believe she was ever that unattractive, but she assures me she was. So I’m not here to bash women or shun people for getting things wrong. I understand that the propaganda against femininity and gender roles runs deep, and that like my friend, many women were taught to be masculine because it’s a man’s world.
But what works in the boardroom isn’t the same thing as what works in the bedroom. Most men I know steer clear of ballbusting chicks. We aren’t scared of them. We’re just turned off. We want women who enjoy being feminine. We are deeply and profoundly attracted to empathy, generosity, patience, humility, and vulnerability (which is the root of courage). These traits may not strike you as glamorous, but humanity needs them now more than ever. Hyper-masculinity is destroying the Earth. We need women to show the world what we’re missing and make it a better place for everyone. As good as it is for men to adopt these characteristics as well, women do it much better and make a greater impact when they lead by example and play to their natural strengths.
T.Q. is a Georgia native and part-time writer who enjoys using blogs to challenge his own perspective as well as the beliefs of random strangers. He likes getting to the core of issues and leaving no elephant in the room unaddressed. So you can converse with and learn from (and with) him or deny and debate him, he’ll most likely enjoy either approach. Let the good times and great discussions roll.
Waiting for this to be mis-interpreted as degrading to women in 3…2…1
Your cynicism is as off-putting as the women this article describes.
Did you come over from Necole Bitchie? Cuz that’s a whole different world.
Amen… I've never been attracted to a woman that wants to act or have characteristics like a man… didn't marry one either. No thanks.
No shade on those that have those qualities, but I'm sure we were mutually uninterested.
I agree with about 95% of the article. I don’t think these qualities should be seen as feminine or masculine, but as positive or negative traits a person should/shouldn’t have if they are looking to be in a relationship. Certain masculine traits (for the sake of the article) even when a man shows them can be horrible if not used in moderation.
Other than that I agree with what you’re saying over all. I see a relationship as a team with two partners. Nobody wants to be on a team with a partner who is bossy, self-centered, overbearing etc… There is nothing wrong with a woman being understanding, ,caring and willing to let a man (partner) take the lead when necessary.
"I agree with about 95% of the article. I don’t think these qualities should be seen as feminine or masculine, but as positive or negative traits a person should/shouldn’t have if they are looking to be in a relationship."
I hear you, but I don't think it's a matter of positive or negative though. I think it's more nuanced than that. Feminine and masculine are energies. Those energies exist (despite our understanding of them) on a pole. Like how temperature is all in degrees and relative. These energies guide our behavior as we engage with them. Describing these energies as masculine and feminine doesn't mean that men should be 100 %masculine ALL the time or that women should be 100% feminine or they're unattractive. That's not what I'm suggesting at all. It's just that as a man I'm more likely to be closer to the masculine pole in most of my approaches to interactions. I still do have an active feminine side that I engage with when I trust and care for people. Being human transcends masculinity and femininity and infuses the two. Everybody has to find the right balance that works for them. I was only pointing out that these energies exist and tend to be attracted to their polar opposites the same way magnets work. Love is a science. Seduction is an art…and a bonding experience. Why do so many people fight it and make it difficult? lol (not talking about you personally tho Smilez.
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
Before I give my opinion, could you please define exactly what "masculine characteristics" you're referring to in this post? All of the "masculine" traits you mentioned in the article are negative:
"A woman who can’t grasp the psychology of another person or doesn’t care to do so is just as unattractive as a woman who would prefer to be manipulative rather than empathetic. A woman like this doesn’t (appear to) want to learn from you or expand her own perspective, she wants to impose hers on you and get you to see the error of your ways. She even expects you to validate this self-absorbed chaos."
The above statement does not describe masculinity in my book (although unless the person is self-described LGBTQ, I try to stay away from arbitrary, socially defined labels). Maybe she isn't "masculine", just a different type of woman. Describing her as "masculine" makes it seem as if only men are allowed to act this way, and honestly, I wouldn't want a man that acted the way you're describing either;he's not masculine, he's just a douche for some reason or another.
And please, please, PLEASE, do not list "kindness, humility, and submission" as feminine ideals. Kindness and humility are people ideals; men are just as capable as women. But submission? What? I'll compromise when I want to, but I won't submit to anyone but Jesus and the people who brought me into this world. That statement is where it all went wrong.
I would recommend you seek to fully understand women that do the things in question (still not entirely sure what you are talking about) using more first-person accounts, because your friend does not represent them or know all/majority of their stories. You are talking about women like they are victims in the dark. If you began to view them as women rather than as masculine women, you would get so much farther.
SBM, really?
Nuff Said! Agreed.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with the word or act of submission (to give in). But it shouldn’t be see as feminine. But partners are to submit to each other. When you see submission as a feminine thing as a man you will never be willing to meet your woman half way.
Yea, i think we can agree to disagree. Compromise is a much better word than submit, and I think more often than not we are compromising not submitting. Compromising our views if he challenges them well enough, compromising on which movie to watch with the expectation that the other person chooses next time, compromising on when to get married and have kids,etc. True submission rarely happens, because whether its at that moment or not, I think everyone expects what they do to be given in return.
"meet your woman half way" as you said is not submission, its a compromise. I'll put up with/do this as long as you put up with/do that.
Also, its funny how we both noted the same issues with the article, but you agree 95% while I was offended. How often does that happen!
Collegegrl, you make some great points. However, your (and many of your peers) issue with the word submission points to a larger issue at hand. Talk to any couples have been married for 20 or more years and they will tell you that often submission is a very necessary component for both parties. We want to dress it up and make it sound nice under the guise of compromise because that's a word more suitable to our 21st century palate. But, submission is to compromise as the high road is to success. Quite often the key to maintaining a relationship is having the wherewithal to step back even when you're right. Quite often it's saying nothing at all when something could absolutely be said. Quite often it's learning what supporting true leadership means… learning how to be the best follower. You want a relationship where everything is weighed 50-50 and every decision is contemplated 50-50 and everyone's thoughts and feelings are taken into account at the onset. You want an ideal that most couples only realize through years of marriage and getting to know each other. In the interim, those women (who are the FIRM FOUNDATION) keep their relationships in tact by choosing their battles. Any man worth his salt knows that women are smarter. Any woman worth her salt knows that throwing that fact in a man's face will only get you single for the rest of your life. My guess is someday you want to be married. My guess is you want the respect any woman of your caliber demands. My advice is to get over the word "submission," put everything in it's proper context, purchase a copy of "It's Complicated: But It Doesn't Have to Be" and talk to the wives of at least 10 married couples (over 10 years) before you form a complete opinion about that 50-50 stuff. xo
That book recommendation tells me you operate in a positive place. That's what's up. (Paul's good people.)
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I do! (See what I did there… LOL!) I've done my due diligence on your Mr. Jones. I like what you're about.
"But, submission is to compromise as the high road is to success. Quite often the key to maintaining a relationship is having the wherewithal to step back even when you're right. Quite often it's saying nothing at all when something could absolutely be said. Quite often it's learning what supporting true leadership means… learning how to be the best follower."
That right there could start a whole d*mn college curriculum. Very well said. I'm all the way with you and your eloquence on that one. I think one partner takes the lead on some things and the other partner takes it on others. If one person has real issues following the leader when it's necessary or they can't agree on when it's necessary there will be issues that'll be hard to ever fix. It's all about willingness and chemistry I think.
"Any man worth his salt knows that women are smarter."
Whoa there. I was with you for a minute lol
"My advice is to get over the word "submission,"
Lol, not sure if this was directed at me, but I don't need the word to make my points, but the women in my life use it and like it. They also like the word "dominant". I don't usually use it otherwise unless I'm talking about sports lol
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
Thanks, T.Q. I'm no stranger to this argument. I've been on the male dominated pedestal for a year now. Our web series How Men Become Dogs has caused quite a stir in this arena.
LOL @ that last line!!!!
Me personally, I can understand what I believe he's trying to say…even though I think the argument was flawed, lol. Ladies come in all shapes and sizes but a man still wants to be with…a lady (that works for him)…and vice versa for the men. Woman have had to become more aggressive/coarse out in these streets to deal with the climate of our society. But, we do need to remember to chill all that out some when we get home to our families. The same way men who are cops and such often power down before going home. Both need to know when to cut certain traits on and off…up or down. The article just happened to be directed towards women…which is fine.
Okay, I agree with what I think he's trying to say too. But with all the articles and discussion surrounding aggressive women that share similar sentiments, I might be putting words in his mouth. Also, the tone and word choice in this post make me think he's adding an element I don't agree with.
If he's just saying emotionally "hard" women should be softer and more vulnerable with their partners and only that, then cool. It could have been said a little better though.
"Compromise is a much better word than submit"
Perhaps. This is a fair perception to have. I think the word itself has become too charged and political but I don't think it's negative. I just think it comes from a human energy that's on the feminine side of the scale (we need both energies within us to be fully human or else we'd be unbalanced in potentially unhealthy or destructive ways (ie hyper-masculine or hyper-feminine). Feminine and masculine are points of reference like East and West. Men have both qualities and so do women. Everyone's a human being first and a man or woman after that. If you're breathing you're going to have a combination of both energies at any given moment. It all depends on your personality, the situation, what stage of life you're at, your current mood or state of mind, the people you're interacting with at the time etc;.
As it pertains to society and the nature of the two sexes there will inevitably be the possibility of tension and distrust between the two sexes because so many men and women have failed to interact in healthy, stress-free, mutually satisfactory manners for so much of their pasts that they no longer trust each other (or themselves) and thus approach most interaction with skepticism, cynicism, manipulation, and indifferent selfishness as coping/defense mechanisms. That's why I think submission is still a good word cause it indicates trust. If you choose the right person most emotionally healthy people will submit to each other on a variety of different things and dominate or assert their own perspective/boundary on each other in other areas. Life's a series of actions, inactions, reactions, interactions, and a lot of perception/experience. It's not a black and white or "negative/positive" thing. Submission has been slandered and misinterpreted to make it sound weak and foolish, but that's a matter of connotation being dictated by misunderstanding in some schools of thought.
"True submission rarely happens, because whether its at that moment or not, I think everyone expects what they do to be given in return. "
Hmmm. You could be right. Most people are inherently self-interested, but certain bonds and chemistries make us re-frame our perception of self and what pleases our "self". I don't think it's that rare to encounter these people though. It's just like you have faith in God, you can have faith in another person (fidelity, trust) and you need that for a healthy sexual relationship anyway. It's spiritually ideal for any healthy relationship (monogamous or not) honestly. So to me submission's about trusting the man to know what he's doing with you and the relationship. It's about the willingness AND enjoyment of complementing him without being in his way or restraining him from being himself. You gotta pick the right man for him to be worthy of that level of trust though. That's comes down to good judgment, having positive and attractive energy, cooperation, chemistry, trust (in yourself first so you can pick the right men) and the vulnerability that tends to reciprocate attraction, love, affection, and bonding from people (cause men are people too). Sounds ideal for a union between two people who respect and dig each other to me.
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
O, well I must admit that last paragraph was NICE! I feel like I need to copy and paste it somewhere.
"So to me submission's about trusting the man to know what he's doing with you and the relationship."
You got me! I now have a new perspective on the word "submission". This is something I've found hard to do in my relationship, but it is very new (about six months) and it is very long-distance so I'd be a fool to submit at this stage anyway. That's the thing about long-distance relationships, even although he talks a good game I always keep it in the back of my mind that it could just be game. And then the question of we've only been together six months, so why aren't sparks flying (for me, at least)? Yea, lack of complete trust can definitely end a relationship as I've thought of doing several times, but I wanna wait until we see each other again to know for sure.
"You got me! I now have a new perspective on the word "submission". "
That's awesome. I have to warn you though, you're going to come off a lot more attractive than you currently were to a lot of men. Hope you can handle it lol
"I always keep it in the back of my mind that it could just be game."
I feel you. I'm the same way with women when I'm considering a substantial relationship with them. Once I'm comfortable enough with them to trust them this is easy for me to let go and give them the benefit of the doubt (for the most part).
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
Yes, collegegrl. Yes!!!
Yep I was confused as well I didn't understand what the masculine qualities are that you say is ok for women to sometimes have.
I agree with Smilez. Submission is not a bad thing. It's sad that so many believe it is now.
Also, although I agree that there are problems with how masculinity/femininity is defined in the post, I don't think SBM as a unit should be blamed for the author's view point. I'm sure SBM as a unit has varied opinions about the article. The author's article was posted by SBM to generate discussion…not cause they all agree with what's in it. 🙂
I'm not really upset with SBM. It's a great site. Being aware of the fact that the articles posted on here do reflect upon them in some way and contribute to their reputation, I think SBM agrees with the post enough to think it offers great discussion, but yea, no blame SBM. The majority of my post had nothing to do with SBM as a unit.
Gotcha! The core SBM staff (I believe a lot of the recent authors have been contributors) doesn't comment like they used to (which I miss)…not sure if you were reading when they did comment often. But they def were not each others amen corner, lol…they had no problem disagreeing with each other publically.
…good times. 🙂 *sigh*
And please, please, PLEASE, do not list "kindness, humility, and submission" as feminine ideals. Kindness and humility are people ideals; men are just as capable as women.
——
kindness, humility, and submission are traits that more men notice in women, than the other way around.
while these are universal attributes that all homo sapiens should have, we attribute these qualities more to the female gender than the male gender.
kinda like…basketball players are expected to be good passers, good rebounders…but you'd expect your PG to lead your team in assists…and your Power Forward/Center to lead your team in rebounding.
"while these are universal attributes that all homo sapiens should have, we attribute these qualities more to the female gender than the male gender"
This is exactly the point I disagreed with. While this may be the reality, he said "feminine ideals". When the word "ideals" is used, it disregards reality and instead speaks to the perfect scenario in an ideal world. I've met a lot of kind men and women; the humility part is tricky though for both. I guess its less common in men than women, although I've known a few less than humble women. Ideally, more men would take on some of these "feminine ideals"
Ugh, I can't stand making generalizations about people. This is why I'm not a sociology major. Shout out to my g̶o̶o̶d̶ dudes !
Sorry, didn't mean to say "g o o d" dudes. I meant to have "good" crossed out, because its so vague. No offense to you h.h.h.
"When the word "ideals" is used, it disregards reality"
No it doesn't. It informs it.
"I've met a lot of kind men and women; the humility part is tricky though for both. "
Agreed. And I don't generally don't associate or engage with any of those people.
"Ideally, more men would take on some of these "feminine ideals" "
Yup. I think a lot more of them have these traits (to varying degrees) than you might imagine.
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
Yes can someone define what is a masculine woman? And I think some men respond positively to aggressive loud women, if that's what a masculine woman is. OP just isn't one of them. Why can't SBM articles be a little more flexible? Where are the flexible writers at?
Well said, and… Let me add submission is a two way street. That's Biblical if you follow the teaching in the Bible.
I believe that the model of the "fierce" woman came about not out of a wish to dominate men, but as a defense mechanism of sorts. Some women are afraid to be vulnerable or show weakness, because they feel it leaves them open to be mistreated by a male. When a woman gets cheated on or abused by a male, one of the first reactions is to become "stronger" so she isn't hurt again. Vulnerability is not an option, lest she become a victim again.
I think what needs to happen is that femininity needs to be redefined as an endearing quality which represents an inner strength that will not leave a woman open to being a victim, but will enhance her as a person, an individual and whatever she chooses to be.
BrownLadyCA I agree. This is something I didn't know about or consider before while dating and meeting women. It's something I've learned over time from blogs and comment sections in blogs and from women I know more intimately. I think a lot more guys would give more empathy to women and be more patient with their reluctance to trust or be comfortable with men they don't know.
"I think what needs to happen is that femininity needs to be redefined as an endearing quality which represents an inner strength that will not leave a woman open to being a victim, but will enhance her as a person, an individual and whatever she chooses to be."
Wow. So well said. Couldn't agree with you more. You, Drake, and I need to re-brand the word and make a fortune off it's positive press. You wit me?
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
As a woman I can personally testify that being kind, empathetic, vulnerable and humble do not work in attracting males: they'll just assume you're boring. It doesn't even work with other women. As the poster above said these ideals shouldn't be regulated to women alone, everyone should have these traits. I know I am personally not trying to be your mother Teresa or angel or saint or better half. I want humanness and all that comes with it. And I am not submitting to anyone period. I will hear you out, I will compromise, I will it play it your if I feel it's a good idea. Now I do think some women do take the strong approach far but follow your own advice: seek to understand first. You don't know what life people lead. It changes and shapes you and your outlook. Maybe she has a story that you would appreciate.
your initial statement is simply not true. maybe thats just for the wack niggas that you like.
"As a woman I can personally testify that being kind, empathetic, vulnerable and humble do not work in attracting males: they'll just assume you're boring."
But then women say they hate when men generalize them?. Okay.
There's balance in character traits and personality traits. Being kind is useless if you let people treat you any kind of way. Being vulnerable doesn't matter if you just let any ol body in. And like Anthony said, if having those qualities haven't work for you, maybe you need to re-consider your audience.
My recent post The Ways Women Hurt Men In Relationships
Yeah, that was a terrible blanket statement…le sigh!
A nice read. I really like what T.Q. said about vulnerability being the root of courage. So true!
Also, as a beta girl, I often feel pressure to “alpha up” both in and outside of work to get noticed.
Kindness, humility, and submission/compromise are not feminine traits, its called not being an a-hole. Both men and women should possess these traits if they want to attract a partner. What is unattractive as you said, is insecurity and self-absorption but again this is unattractive for both men and women. Moral of the story don't be an a-hole and lets create space for both men and women to express both "masculine" and "feminine" traits. Perpetuating these gender roles only leaves both men and women feeling incomplete. We have men who can't express emotions because "emotions" are feminine and women who don't speak up for themselves because to do so is "domineering" or "masculine".
you can't re-invent the wheel. men will always be men and women will always be women. until i can have a menstrual cycle and a baby, there is no way that i can be the same as a woman. women are feminine as the compliment to a man's masculine. when you try and play god by screwing with humanity, you get devastating results.
I have to agree with the previous comment. Since when did “humility, patience, empathy, and kindness” become female ideals? Those are HUMAN ideals; attractive if displayed by both gender. “Fierce” is subjective. It doesn’t have to mean aggressive or dominating. Perhaps defining “feminine characteristics” were a little difficult when writing this post? I agree women should embrace their femininity and act like a lady. But don’t get it twisted, empathy, kindness, humility are SO attractive in men from a woman’s standpoint.
Lastly, the whole submission thing. I’m a woman all for it, but to be clear I’m only submitting to a man who has demonstrated that he is capable of leading US in the right direction, and who is my husband. Too man “boyfriends” want their women to submit yet they haven’t even fully committed. I don’t think women should be afraid of submission, but men need to understand not every man is worth it and regular ol’ boyfriends don’t qualify.
That whole last paragraph!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, yes, yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, ma'am. Speak on it!
"Since when did "humility, patience, empathy, and kindness" become female ideals? Those are HUMAN ideals;"
Not female ideals, but feminine ideas. Who says they can't be both human and feminine? Isn't feminine half of human? Did we all not come from both a man and a woman? So all of us are made of…woman lol. So since we all came from a woman got our game from a woman (R.I.P. to the late great) why wouldn't human(ity) be heavily associated with feminine energy? Men are attracted to women because feminine energy is a part of us and it's attractive to us. It's just that for a lot of men we prefer that the ladies in our life are in touch with that energy a little more than we are on a daily basis (we can hang with our boys to get more masculine energy in our lives). That's just a matter of individual preference though.
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You better stop dropping knowledge and simultaneously quoting Tupac. Point value just went up by 6. They are not ready, T.Q. They simply are not ready!
from my experience, a woman who says empathy, kindness and humility are attractive in men never go for men that have those types of qualities in their walking life. and if they do, they are left unsatisfied.
I have never dated a man that did not have all three of these qualities to a degree.
Empathetic doesn't equal cry baby. Kind doesn't equal push over. Humble does not equate to lack of confidence…with the latter of all three being qualities that I would never find attractive.
how did those situations work out for you?
Uh…we broke up, lol. But, it wasn't because they were too empathetic, too kind, or too humble, lol…smh.
You aren't empathetic, kind, or humble at all, Anthony? I find that hard to believe…
why did you mention those situations if they did not work out? why did those relationships end? i am not really any of those things. at one point in my life i tried to be but its simply not in my nature. i'm a fair person and stand up guy. but im not going to diminish myself as a man by trying to engage with you on an emotional level which i'm not good at.
Because they are still qualities that I deem attractive and, again, had nothing to do with the fact that we broke up.
I'm not gonna list out the reasons all my relas ended, lol. I ended my marriage because we weren't compatible (got married quickly and young). My most recent bf and I broke up cause he was unsure about whether or not he was really open to being a step-father (I have two sons).
Men have emotions. Empathy is merely showing that you understand another person's experience. The definition doesn't even obligate you to agree with what occured. Kindness is just being cool/respectful/doing good stuff for folks. Humble is simply not being arrogant.
So, you don't have the capacity to understand others, be cool with folks, or do good things for folks? You are arrogant?
can you read. i said what i am and what i am capable of doing. why ask me the same question over again?
LMBO. I read just fine. Maybe you meant to ask if I could comprehend what you previously stated. 😉
And I do. But, frankly, I don't believe you. I believe you're trying to save your point. So I laid out what my understanding of what the definitions of those words are…hoping you would own that of course you are empathetic, kind, and humble to some degree in fitting instances.
Those hopes have clearly been dashed. Good day to you…
Is it that hard to understand people, to be nice to people, and to not think you are better than anyone else? A person does not have to be all of these things all of the time and there is more than one way to be any of the three.
Plus, you might think you are these things, but are you really? I know I'm not as compassionate as I thought I was. And are you sure these women left the guy because he was these three (EKH)? They may have left him because they weren't compatible with the rest of his personality, besides EKH.
You might think women are leaving the nice guy for a thug (and that is sometimes the case), but the thug can be a nice guy too- to her and certain other people- despite his image. Men want "a lady in the streets, a freak in the bed" and women, speaking for myself, want the reverse or at least the best of both worlds. I wasn't actively looking for that, like attracting a thug and hoping he was different, but I experienced that and it enlightened me in so many ways. It's definitely a plus. I guess you can say most people in this area would love to have their cake and eat it too 🙂
*Que Jodi telling Yvette he Fucks Other Women but Makes Love to Her, a la Baby Boy*
Thugs can be Nice Guys too??? Okay, and Hoes can be turned into Housewives and Side Pieces are the Trainers of Men who can't seem to Work Things Out with their Girlfriends or Wives
GTHOH
People keep saying this hoe into a housewife thing, but I know many married hoes. That has to be one of those fairytales that men tell themselves to make them feel better.
Men don't marry hoes. Simps do.
Of course, a woman's true power is in her femininity, but best believe that you should choose wisely and also let a man show his true self before you let down all your guards, a bunch of boys out here who have no interest in commiting, protecting and providing want a woman to be vulnerable and submit to them. I guess you can say it's a chicken or egg thing, I say it's a man's role to approach, court and display his intentions through actions and the woman would be a fool to not respond accordingly if he's coming correct. I have had many guys for example try to come over to my house for me to COOK for them when they had not planned one date to take me out, dudes reading this, do not let the word " COOK" come out your mouth before you have planned and executed dates with a woman to get to know her. Cooking is a lot of woman's love language, our way of caring for and nurturing those we love, so if you understand that you will understand how intimate it is to be in our homes so BUILD the intimacy first before you start auditionning us for the wife role Jeez. I can't.
"a bunch of boys out here who have no interest in commiting, protecting and providing want a woman to be vulnerable and submit to them. I guess you can say it's a chicken or egg thing"
Then STOP DEALING WITH THOSE BOYS!
Honestly, if women en masse stopped sleeping with undeserving men/thugs/players and started hooking up with doctors, lawyers, engineers, scholars, then in 10 years, there'd be no more black men in prison and more black women would be married than ever.
Women attract what they get.
When it comes down to it, men want a woman who is supportive, respectful and makes him feel needed/wanted in some way. Whether you consider these traits, feminine or masculine is up to you. No self assured man wants a woman he can walk all over or control, but he doesn't want a woman who's ready to tear his throat out at the first sign of weakness. We want some balance.
As for the whole "submissive" thing, I just think that word has been taken out of context in recent years. The bible tells both husband and wife "Submit yourselves one to another in the fear of God", before telling the wife to submit to the husband and the husband to love his wife. (Keep in mind that the bible was originally written in ancient Hebrew, where the word submission is used to describe the concept of "respect".)
YES, Chris Reid. #THIS
I read this at first as "Yes, Chris Read" As in her just "read" someone cause he did! lol
I think sometimes women blur the lines between being aggressive and being assertive. 1 is a turn off, 1 is endearing.
My recent post The Ways Women Hurt Men In Relationships
I read this and my first impression was that the focus of this article is misdirected. Many men that are hostile towards women, have shallow arguments. This is no exception. Delving into his essay, the writer is dreaming for many women to be more feminine. They are feminine. I'm pretty feminine. I still expect men to be manly – they should be protective, want to help me with my coat, the door, pay for my meals, pick me up, want to take care of me overall. I tend to shift to the tough girl when I'm a man that leaves me hanging. My friends all talk about, wanting to go on autopilot, feeling secure that our men, will anticipate our needs and take charge. My boyfriend, loves me so much and struggles with all the power I give him. He's not used to a woman, saying, "please take charge." He takes one step forward, and looks back to see if I'm following him. I think if men just took charge, you'd see softer women. I love it when he gets a great idea for the both of us. I think women take charge, because some men do not think too far into the future. They are too focused on the wrong things. Out of frustraion, women do step in and take charge of steering the wheel. What we should do instead, is probably leave that boy alone, so he can grow. We would be able to stay more feminine for the next manly man that will know how to drive the relationship forward. My relationship is not perfect but I don't waste my breath on nagging anymore. I just know that I could leave at any moment, and that is actually empowering. I know too many other women, that stay, because they think there are no other men out there. My boyfriend loves that – I see his mind constantly churning to make me happy. He also knows I appreciate him very much. I do cook – I constantly bake and suprise him with new things to do. He's not affectionate, when he gets cold I still tickle him and kiss him, even with the grumpiest face. I think men that get frustrated with a tougher skinned woman, don't really put the work in. If they learn to take charge, and show he is reliable, consistent, and generous with his time, affection and emotions, he will see her soften. A man who can't follow through, forgets anniversaries, never does anything special with his girlfriend, and doesn't clearly state to his girl her title (girlfriend), or never compliments her, BUT then wonders why she isn't so giggly and care free, better check his own behavior. Women are like cold butter – if a man supply consistent heat, she will soften.
"Many men that are hostile towards women, have shallow arguments. This is no exception."
Lol. What's shallow about my argument?
"They are feminine."
They who? Name them. I'm not sure we know the same people in real life. I doubt it. To be clear though, the women I deal with on an intimate level are. That's part of the reason I chose to deal with them on an intimate level in the first place. That doesn't mean there aren't women out there who struggle with being feminine. Just cause it doesn't apply to you doesn't mean it's not true for anyone else.
"I think if men just took charge, you'd see softer women. "
I agree with that. I had to learn from experience and mentorship from other guys.
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
I personally know and encounter lots of feminine women on a regular basis.
I tend to believe that feminine women far outnumber aggressive ones but perhaps a man would know more about this than me since they're usually the ones seeking out women.
I think this may be a case of the squeaky wheel making the most noise. And it could also be a matter of where you tend to roam. If you're frequenting the auto repair shop, you're going to encounter more squeaky wheels than not (Advance apology for the terrible analogy).
"I think this may be a case of the squeaky wheel making the most noise."
This is a fair point and there's a lot of truth to it. Disgruntled people tend to speak up (and rant) a lot more than satisfied or content people. I agree that feminine women outnumber the aggressive ones, especially once a man leads with (respectful) masculinity. At that point it's way more natural for most women to behave in a feminine manner. So yeah, I concur.
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
I know a lot of men who don't want a prissy female but not a manly one either. It's hard to find that balance in some women.
my post: 10 rules women should follow
I think it all comes down to allowing yourself to be vulnerable and not having to overextend yourself in your relationship because you have a point to make.
I feel like men are more romantic than women. When we get married, we marry, like, one girl, ’cause we’re resistant the whole way until we meet one girl and we think, “I’d be an idiot if I didn’t marry this girl. She’s so great”. But it seems like girls get to a place where they just kinda pick the best option… ‘Oh he’s got a good job.’ I mean they spend their whole life looking for Prince Charming and then they marry the guy who’s got a good job and is gonna stick around.
I feel like men are more romantic than women. When we get married, we marry, like, one girl, ’cause we’re resistant the whole way until we meet one girl and we think, “I’d be an idiot if I didn’t marry this girl. She’s so great”. But it seems like girls get to a place where they just kinda pick the best option… ‘Oh he’s got a good job.’ I mean they spend their whole life looking for Prince Charming and then they marry the guy who’s got a good job and is gonna stick around.
I feel like men are more romantic than women. When we get married, we marry, like, one girl, ’cause we’re resistant the whole way until we meet one girl and we think, “I’d be an idiot if I didn’t marry this girl. She’s so great”. But it seems like girls get to a place where they just kinda pick the best option… ‘Oh he’s got a good job.’ I mean they spend their whole life looking for Prince Charming and then they marry the guy who’s got a good job and is gonna stick around
There is a huge difference between being RIGHT and being CORRECT! Some of the defensiveness I'm seeing is exactly what the author is alluding to. Contrary to modern opinion, there are certain personality traits that permeate the genders. Problem is today everything has been turned on its axis due to a plethora of environmental factors. I cram to understand the ladies who continue to choose to qualify being "feminine", but expect men to be mostly manly and subscribe to male gender roles that the majority of modern males are not equipped to adhere to because of lack of fathers and such. Sometimes its okay to say "my way isn't the best way" and do some self-inventory, but I guess that's too much like right. *Cue Kanye's 'Blame Game'* If I can admit that we guys have taken a step back or two since civil rights, why can't the ladies do the same. If the article were about "Guys not being manly enough" the comment section would explode with female banter and amens. We have to do better people.
^THIS! You read my mind dude.
This was a good article TQ.
You ever wonder why these relationship arguments, have so much appeal to us?
I think because all of us want relationships, we just are unsure how to navigate the ends and out of it.
My recent post If you don’t want her be honest with her
Thanks man.
I have. I came up with a few possible explanations but I'm curious as to why you think that is. I think it's high stakes and emotional because relationships involve us as individuals and to analyze them is to analyze people's judgment and decision-making skills (and their preferences values, opinions, and tastes). That tends to ruffle feathers and get people worked up. These convos are like minefields full of provocative bombs even when the author edits him (or her)self and tries to say it respectfully. People generally have a hard time ignoring provocative. Even if they don't like it. Think about how much press Twitter gave racist ppl who called Richard Sherman a thug and a n*gger a week or so ago. Lol. What you think it is though?
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
I think it comes back to what I said on your post about "brutal honesty" vs. brutal dishonesty. I think people are more scared of honesty than dishonesty in our age, because we're a lot more narcissistic than previous generations. Brutal honesty tells you "N*gga/B*tch this is what you are!" Brutal Dishonesty is "I love you, just the way you are." (Hehe shout out to Bruno Mars)
It's kind of like that skit with Charlie Murphy and the Player Hater's, where they go back in time and kill a slave master and Charlie's talking trash about how he'd never let himself get whipped and then he sees a slave that looks just like him lol. We think we're so intelligent, so cool, so smart, so much better, filled with untapped potential (broke folks got ipods and ipads)…that we don't like it when the relationship world doesn't match with our self-image.
Back in the day, you kind of just settled and you made it work out. It was simple, we argue because it's so complex today, (we want to simplify them) and plus, we think we can always do better (even the losers think they can do better), thus we have the problem of choice as well. Ironically tough, our battles make for great conversations, since we can all relate.
You're right man. People are more scared of brutal honesty, when dishonesty is what's a lot more dangerous.
"We think we're so intelligent, so cool, so smart, so much better, filled with untapped potential (broke folks got ipods and ipads)…that we don't like it when the relationship world doesn't match with our self-image. "
(Nods head) And that's why this is such a sensitive subject. It's the product of a culture that cares more about self-image than actual self smh
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
*walks past comment thread and whistles*
My recent post Today’s Word is… BOWL
Lmbo!!!! @Tristan
I think this is an awesome article and I agree with it. I understand, however, how your message can get misconstrued. You are speaking of "energies" and not roles. This article speaks to me personally because often times in my relationship I feel myself letting out masculine energy. I did not understand it before. It isn't done intentionally its more a case of conditioning from childhood and later experiences. See I grew up in a house where my mom was not married and barely dated. She took care of me and my brother and broke her back to do so. She was feminine but had a not so feminine approach to anger. I later adopted this when I was older. Although I taught myself how to fix it, it reared its ugly head again when my mom passed leading me to feel emotionally unstable with everything around me and very insecure, something I've never really experienced.
At the time I was six months into a relationship with someone. Fast forward to now, we have been together three years but it is not easy. Because of those "masculine" energies I have possessed because life dealt me a hard blow, I find myself being totally absorbed in myself, my needs, my wants, my demands for what I THINK love should be. Always telling him what he has done wrong and how he can/should fix it, yelling to get my point across because I have been so consumed with emotions that overwhelmed my logic, and overall not having patience with the journey he is on while growing into a man. This is all due to my underlying fear, fear which is death, of being vulnerable so instead I have to be defensive. The way it operates with me is, I may want you but don't need you, My mom did it so can I. Then on the other hand fear plays a big part because I am at such a vulnerable part in my life with the loss of my mother even years later that I have created this shell of protection to protect myself from hurt, not being good enough, and being left. All insecurities that do not make for a great partner.
Nonetheless, my man has been with me since even on the worst of days and I have this knowledge and I want to change because take it from me, its not victory to be in a constant power struggle because I refuse for my heart to be broken therefore I refuse for it to be given fully. I have yet to surrender to love but I want to fully & I will. It's a risk I'll have to take because I see myself being his WIFE one day and having his masculine energy lead my feminine energy. Submission is to love, submission to yourself in giving your heart to someone and fully allowing them to be them while you be you. So I get you. Thank you I needed this article as you can tell from my lengthy post lol.
Thanks for the feedback and thanks for sharing something so personal. Also thanks a lot for actually understanding what I was saying, comments like this make me glad I submitted (see what I did there? lol) this article to SBM.
That's a tough situation. I'm sorry to hear about your mom. I can't imagine losing a parent even though I know it's going to happen eventually. I have faith that you can have the strength to submit to God and your man/relationship. Vulnerability is NOT easy at all, especially after dealing with something that traumatic. I have faith that you'll gracefully achieve it with your man and with yourself though since you're committed to making the effort and you know where you want to be emotionally. Props to your man for being patient and compassionate with you. Best of luck in the future.
My recent post What If I Can’t Help But Objectify You
Hm. A lot of really good stuff here but the focus should not be women who choose to be "masculine" but rather individuals ( both male and female) who are incapable of being vulnerable in relationships.
And just based off my own personal experience ….if what Men seek is feminine women who are to operate as true Queens then it is Men who must begin to behave as Kings and find their masculinity and those women who they find to be aggressive and hostile will feel safe again and find their femininity.
I was livid when i read the article because i thought "here goes another man trying to tell women what to think and how to act". I read some of the comments and simmered down. I am a self proclaimed feminist , so words like 'submit', rub me the wrong way- however i am willing to compromise with some very heavy qualifications (i am a lawyer too). Due to my career, age (26) and race (black), plus after reading "Lean In"- i have deliberately exchanged femininity for professionalism – to be precise and sterile in my dealings. I dont believe there is any role or characteristic that is gender specific- we all have to strive to be decent human beings. Its for this reason that i rebel against doing household chores (i have a maid), offering to help at events- i sit and get served, because these are traditionally womens duties and we need men to get used to seeing us at the table with them- rather this in the shadows faffing around and "playing mother" as Margaret Thatcher said.
I was raised by a single dad, so i know what men can do- my dad is the most kind, loving, intelligent, generous and patient man that i have been blessed to know. There are no gender specific roles in our home, he will wash dishes, cook, provide for me financially, iron my dresses, etc. Ergo, it makes no sense to me where we get these qualities that are described as being "feminine", i wasnt raised as a girl- i was raised a child who could do whatever i wanted and i intend to continue to grow into a human being that enjoys unfettered personal growth- free of the chains of society!
I'm really not trying to be an a**hole at all b/c I'm also a black lawyer (27 years old male).
But if what you said about yourself is true, I understand even more why many men (especially lawyers) dislike and refuse to deal with women like yourself. You're a "self-proclaimed feminist" that's too good to do household chores. And you've "deliberately exchanged femininity for professionalism." Yet, I'm sure you're the first one to claim that "men ain't shit" when it comes to your relationships. All that is great at the firm and for in-house positions but good luck trying to have a meaningful relationship with a quality man with that attitude and behavior.
As I said many times before, this feminism crap is harming our relationships and interactions between the genders. (Black) feminism is a living contradiction. It doesn't even have an articulate, sensible purpose! All it's given us is confusion: women who act like men and men who are emasculated by those women. The fact that you're proud of this is really disheartening.
I fear for the future of the black family.
I can stand no manly acting female it is a turn off.
Basically, the more a woman behaves like a man, the more difficulty she will have in the dating/marriage scene.